Topics Topics Help/Instructions Help Edit Profile Profile Member List Register  
Search Last 1 | 3 | 7 Days Search Search Tree View Tree View  

Visit The Brewery's sponsor!
Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2003 * November 12, 2003 * Alt < Previous Next >

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
  Start New Thread        

Author Message
 

Jack Corrozi (192.189.32.10)
Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 06:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does anyone have any recommendations for an Alt recipe??
Munich malt base??
Noble hops on the light side?
Yeast?
Will it need to be 'lagered'?
 

davidw (209.107.44.126)
Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 07:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My prefered course of action based on Denny Conn influence: 100% Munich Malt, OG 55, noble hops (preferably Spalt) for 50 IBU's, Wyeast 1007, ferment at 55-60 degrees and lagering will only improve the finished product. Sacc rest @ 148-150 degrees to insure good fermentability of the wort. A smidge of carafe malt (German chocolate malt) for colour, say 2-4 oz. per 5 gallons ain't a bad thing either. This is my second favorite beer after Porter.
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 07:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here's my standard alt recipe that takes ribbons every year...
8 lb. Munich 10
2.5 lb. pale
.25 lb. crystal 60 (optional)
1 oz. chocolate or carafa(for color)
1 oz. Spalt -5.5%- FWH
2.5 oz. Spalt -5.5%-60 min.
Wyeast 1007
mash at 150-ferment at 60-62F-condition at 35F for 2 months
 

PalerThanAle (65.168.73.62)
Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 07:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I know that I'll get blasted for this because of the copious amounts of Crystal, but it scored very well and is really drinkable, so there :P

11 gallon batch
  • Pilsen (2 Row) 9 lb
  • Munich Malt 5 lb
  • Crystal 60L 4 lb
  • Carahell Malt 1.50 lb
  • Black Patent Malt (unCrushed) 0.50 lb
  • Spalter Spalt 3.0% 80 Min 4.5 oz
  • Liberty 3.8% 20 Min 1.0 oz
  • Liberty 3.8% 5 Min 1.75 oz
  • Liberty (DRY) 3.8% 1oz each keg
  • WYeast 1007 German Ale
  • 150 Mash, OG between 1.050 and 1.044 - 64degrees Ferment, Lager or drink, I drank didn't lager.


PTA
 

davidw (209.107.44.126)
Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 08:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I must say, that is a prodigious amount of crystal, but I like it!
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 08:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey, can we help it if the judges who scored it didn't know any better?? :) There's a wide variety in alt recipes, PTA, so if yours tastes good, screw what anybody else thinks! But that IS a lot of crystal...
 

Jeff Chapman (148.78.243.51)
Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny,
That recipe sounds good but I get 77.8 IBU's for that recipe from Promash. Is that right?
Thanks, jeff
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 08:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jeff, nope, should be 55-60. Maybe we're using different formulas, but just keep the FWH and adjust the 60 min. addition to give you 55-60 IBU.
 

aleman (199.154.238.242)
Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 10:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmmmm

I usually do a split between Pils and dark Munich malt with just enough Carafa or debittered black malt to get a little more color. Spalt hops if possible.

The style Nazis will freak if they hear you are using Crystal.

So I would go with Dennys.
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 10:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

aleman, your recipe sounds more like the traditional alt recipes. I go more that way if I'm gonna enter it into a comp. Otherwise, I go with what davidw suggested and use all Munich...that's one tasty altbier!
 

danno (207.225.86.219)
Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 11:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry Aleman, there's no flavor hops in a BJCP Alt. But, as others have noted, it's you Alt. Between the flavor hops and the crystal, you're way off BJCP target.
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 11:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree that according to BJCP, there should be no flavor or aroma hops in an alt. But thay make a damn good alt! And more than once, I've been dinged in comps for alts that _don't_ have flavor and aroma hopping, so I think most judges are unaware of the style guidelines.
 

aleman (199.154.238.242)
Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 12:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ummmmm just exactly where did I mention flavor or aroma hops? Umm and as I said my grist doesn't use crystal.
 

PalerThanAle (65.168.73.62)
Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 01:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here is what I based my Alt on, BYO Atricle and Sticke Alt Recipe at bottom.


8B. Duesseldorf Altbier
Aroma: Munich malt aroma, with a restrained fruitiness. Hop aroma may vary from low to moderate.
Appearance: Orange-copper to brown color, with brilliant clarity. Thick, persistent head.
Flavor: Assertively bitter, with intense Munich malt-derived flavor to support. Fruity esters should be restrained; some chocolatey
notes are often present. Hop flavor should be low to medium.
Mouthfeel: Medium-bodied, with moderate carbonation. Some commercial examples have a dry finish resulting from a combination
of high bitterness, higher attenuation, and moderate sulfate in the water.
Overall Impression: Bitterness is very high, especially in relation to the (moderate) gravity. Munich malt character lends balance,
resulting in a bittersweet character. Very smooth from fermentation at the lower end of the temperature range for ales, followed by a
period of lagering.
History/Comments: A very bitter beer with a pronounced Munich malt character. Ingredients, fermentation at low temperature (for
an ale), and a lagering period combine to lend a cleaner palate than for most ales. Predates the isolation of bottom fermenting yeast
strains, though it approximates many characteristics of lager beers. Many Northern German Altbiers are lagers.
Ingredients: German Munich malt is essential to obtaining the necessary depth of malt character. Hops are traditionally Spalt, though
other German varieties are often used.
Vital Statistics: OG: 1.040-1.055
IBUs: 40-60 FG: 1.012- 1.019
SRM: 11-19 ABV: 5-5.5%

PTA
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.63.119)
Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 01:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree that bitterness should dominate in terms of the hop profile for an alt, but there are usually some hop flavor and aroma as well. I wouldn't dry hop an alt, however, or use an overly generous amount of late addition hops.
 

scott jackson (209.107.56.130)
Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 04:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does anyone do a decoction mash for the Alt?
 

davidw (209.107.44.126)
Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 04:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I do a single decoct to raise the grain bed temp from sacc rest to mash out and add some character from the process of decocting.
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.63.119)
Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 04:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Decoction is of course the classic German method but fewer breweries do that today, even in Germany.
 

chumley (199.92.192.126)
Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 04:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My best alts have been decoction mashed. In more recent years I have cheated by adding a 1/2 lb. of aromatic instead. Those alts haven't turned out as good. I believe I am going back to the decoction for my next alt.

When I decoct an alt, I like to mash-in at 135-140°F, immediately pull the thickest 1/3 out and raise it to 150°F for 15 minutes, then raise it to boiling for 30 minutes. I then add it back to the main mash to hit in the 152-158° region. That seems to add something to the resultant brew.
 

scott jackson (209.107.56.130)
Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 04:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny,

Do you use a decoction mash for your Alt?
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 04:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Scott, I've tried it both ways and couldn't see any advantage to the decoction. I did back to back batches last winter, one single infusion and the other step decocted. There wasn't anything about the decocted batch that made me think I shouyld keep doing it. The single infusion batch was every bit as good as the decocted batch.
 

davidw (209.107.44.126)
Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here's an interesting side note from a friend of a friend of a friend:

From: George de Piro Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:40:23 -0500
Subject: Altbier


Hi all,

I recently visited Düsseldorf and sampled the local beers, and toured one of the breweries. The flavor of Altbier was quite different from what I expected, since I was looking for what the BJCP style guidelines dictate: strong Munich malt flavor.

First, there was an obvious quality difference between the four Düsseldorf brewpubs. In my opinion, Schumacher und Schlüssel were inferior to Uerige and Fuecshen (I liked Im Fuecshen best). The first two were not as cleanly brewed as the latter ones.

The beer at Zum Uerige is intensely bitter, with a clean aroma and not a whole lot of malt character to back up that bitterness. In fact, I doubt if any Munich malt is in that beer. As a professional brewer that uses a *lot* of Munich malt, I'm certain that I know its flavor. The bottles from Zum Uerige list only barley malt, caramel malt, and roasted malt on their label.. Its color and flavor are consistent with the malts listed.

The beer at Im Fücshen is more balanced: a light hop aroma, otherwise clean, with a soft malt palate leading into a mildly bitter finish; a quite drinkable beer suitable for long sessions. Since I toured the brewery, I know for a fact that there is *no* Munich malt at all in this beer, just pilsner (Durst) and Weyermann cara, sauer, and roast malts.

It gets only one hop charge, which is first wort. I was impressed by the amount of hop aroma that survived. I noted the hop aroma prior to the informative tour. This was the first time in my beery existence that I got to taste a first wort hop beer completely blind to the fact that it was first wort hopped. Quite educational! (Of course, the Koelsch I just made at work displays no hop aroma despite the fact that I only first wort hopped it. Hmmm.)

Bottles, obtained at Im Fuecschen and Zum Uerige, were not indicative of the flavor of the draft beer available on premises. Im Fuecschen, in particular, suffered in the bottle, with heavy oxidative flavors like honey and tofee (not diacetyl, though). Uerige is better from the bottle, but even when kept cold, bottles nearing the one month expiration are quite a bit more estery than the Bier vom Fass.

In conclusion: Munich malt character is absent, and indeed, malt character in general, is secondary to the hop bitterness in this style. Only Uerige is intensely bitter, the other 3 breweries producing more balanced products.. Bottles from any of the breweries are not quite like drinking at the source.. In the case of Im Fuecschen, this is easily explained by the brewing and packaging procedures: the beer is served VERY young on premises (2 weeks old on average) and the bottled product is put into a truck and sent to a bottling plant. The amount of beer transfers seems to encourage air pick-up, and there is substantial hot side aeration in the brewhouse.

I propose that the BJCP guidelines be changed to omit the line amount Munich malt being a must in this style, seeing as it just isn't true. As a brewer, I think that any of these beers would become more interesting by including a generous amount of Munich malt, but since the Düsseldorfers don't do it, the guidelines should reflect reality.

Have fun!

George de Piro
Head Brewer, C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
19 Quackenbush Square
Albany, NY, USA 12207
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.63.119)
Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 02:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Very interesting, davidw. George de Piro is a talented observer and one of the few homebrewers to be successful as a craft brewer in recent years (most of the early microbreweries were founded by homebrewers but this has been less true in the past 7-8 years). The message was posted last night on JudgeNet, the e-mail digest for BJCP members. It lends a new perspective on this style. Again American homebrewers have created their own version on a style. It would not be inconceivable to have an American alt substyle with more munich malt character than the German examples.
 

danno (207.225.86.219)
Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 04:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, as I have posted before, a local brewer here in Portland toured the Zum Uerige brewery about 9 months ago and was told their recipe is 97% pils, 2% caramel or crystal and 1% roasted (or was that carafa?). Anyway, no munich in there.

I am presenting Alts & Koelsch at our BJCP class tonight. I was already prepared to present two schemes for making Alts. One is the Dusseldorf/No. German method. The other is in order to do well on the BJCP test and in competitions. George's post was very timely. Thanks David for posting it here.

I have brewed them both ways. Personally, I prefer the Munich malt based beer. The body supports the intense bitterness better.
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 04:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for the great info, David! That really supports what Dornbusch says in the alt book. Damn, I've GOT to get over there someday and try the real thing!
 

davidw (209.107.44.126)
Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 04:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, I need to find myself over there someday soon as Dusseldorf is a stones throw from where my family originally immigrated from back in the mid 1600's. Based on this and other info, (I reflect on the article in Zymurgy a few months back), I think I'll do my best to plan the trip around the availability of the Zum Uerige Sticke. From the article and others reviews of Sticke I can't help but wonder if that is more representative of what Alt has been like in the past.
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 05:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do you know about this...

http://www.stickewarriors.com/
 

davidw (209.107.44.126)
Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 05:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I remember these folks from a couple years ago. That might be the way to go.
 

davidw (209.107.44.126)
Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 05:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lucky bastards.
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.63.119)
Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 05:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm not sure that sticke alt is representative of historical alts, which like many 18th and 19th century beers may have been brewed to a more moderate gravity. I suspect sticke alt was only brewed for special occasions and is more popular now (and here in North America) because of our current penchant for bigger beers.

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.