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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2004 * March 08, 2004 * Samiclaus Update: < Previous Next >

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Walt Fischer (24.221.196.114)
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 07:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok.. for anyone whos been watching.. heh
The Samiclaus i brewed up on Dec 6th is still fermentiung away...
Ive never seen a ferment go so slow... but its still going!!
It started at 1.114
I pitched a massive cake of WLP885 into it, and its now down to 1.040, so just coming up on 10%...

Im not in a hurry, as it wont be kegged up till it reaches 1.012 or so, around 13.5%, and wont be touched till next xmas, but id have to say this isnt the fastest yeast ive ever seen... heh

BrewON!
Walt
Lama Brewery
 

Walt Fischer (24.221.196.114)
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 07:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ohh on another note...
Ive kept some of my high octane beers in primary for as long as 4 months before...
The Sami is still in primary as well..
While i know leaving it in primary for too long itsnt the greatest thing, im afraid that if i move it too soon before nearing FG, while its still fermenting pretty good, that i could risk a stuck fermentation...
What are your thoughts?

Walt
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 08:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Walt, I'd vote for leaving it alone until there is less than a 1 point change in gravity between weekly readings. At that point I would rouse the yeast and see if it drops further. If not, that's probably as low as it's going to go with the present yeast strain.
 

Craig Johnson (172.198.111.83)
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 09:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Bill,

My ferments are usually one to two weeks. I rouse my yeast once or twice a week during primary. Are you saying this is a bad idea?
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 10:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No, Craig. Go ahead and rouse the yeast. I was merely suggesting that Walt rouse the yeast (perhaps once again; I don't know if he has done so in the past) if there has been no further drop in the gravity.

There is a considerable difference in the gravity and fermentation of Walt's Samichlaus clone compared to normal beers.
 

Mark Hansche (208.171.32.206)
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 12:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Two of us brewed a dopplebock on new years day that was 1.110. It was a triple decoction, 10 gallon batch. It's around 1.040 now, still fermenting slowly. I racked it into kegs last week, and still have it at 50 deg. I vent the kegs regularly, and as long as it keeps producing CO2, I'm figuring it's still going. I don't think it's going to get to Walt's target gravity, but I'm hoping to drop another 10 points.
 

Brew Labs (150.159.224.8)
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 03:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

hey walt...ya got a recipe for the samichlaus?
 

Greg Harris (204.27.149.70)
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 04:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

How does one go about rousing the yeast? Do you shake the carboy,add more oxygen?

Walt thanks for the update.I hope to try a samichlaus one day.
 

Vance Barnes (69.15.38.210)
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 04:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

How does one go about rousing the yeast?

Swirl the carboy or bucket gently like you would a yeast starter to get the yeast off the bottom. If you're lucky and have a conical you can blow CO2 up the cone to suspend the yeast.
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 04:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Greg, take a look at this from another discussion currently on the board: http://hbd.org/discus/messages/1/20711.html?1077509504
 

Adam W (128.125.35.191)
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 06:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Waiting for a FG of 1.012 is silly, as that would be an AA of roughly 90%....not gonna happen.
 

Fredrik (213.114.44.219)
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 07:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Your patience is just awesome Walt! :) I think I could use some of that patience.

/Fredrik
 

Doug Pescatore (141.232.1.10)
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 07:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Adam,
The first A in AA is apparent. You can have an AA of greater than 100% with highly fermentable ciders and meads. This is a super high gravity beer, IMHO you could hit 1.012 as long as you yeast does not die of alcohol poisoning.

-Doug
 

Adam W (128.125.35.191)
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 08:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Meads and ciders are made from simple sugars (mostly fructose and glucose) which will ferment out to dryness.

I forget exactly what the grain bill was for his Sami clone, but if it was mostly malt then no way in hell it is going to get to 90% AA.
 

Doug Pescatore (141.232.1.10)
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 08:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I believe the commercial version finishes at 1.010, but I am not sure whether it is brewed in hell or not.

-Doug
 

Jordan West (206.27.153.31)
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 08:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For a really high gravity batch, this is what I've been planning to do. First, make something small like a pale ale with the yeast you want for your high gravity brew. After racking off the smaller beer, take about 25% of the yeast out of the primary and put it in a sanitized container and toss it in the fridge. Toss the high gravity beer ontop of the remaining yeast cake and let it go crazy and ferment for a while. Once it slows down to almost a stand still, reactivate the other yeast by making a starter and pitch that yeast back into the primary. This should get things moving again as you'll have some fresh healthy yeast to fight the cause.
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 09:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jordan, reusing the yeast cake of a previous batch is a tried and true method of achieving healthy fermentations of very high gravity beers. But Adam is also correct that there is a limit to the fermentability of malt sugars; I have trouble thinking you would achieve an apparent attenuation of an all-malt wort much above the low to middle 80 percent range even with champagne yeast. Samichlaus apparently includes a small percentage of candi or table sugar, which is about 90 percent fermentable, so my guesstimate would be an apparent attenuation of 85 percent under healthy fermentation conditions.

If that were the case and Samichlaus has an F.G. of 1.010, the O.G. would be 1.067, which is obviously false. I believe the F.G. is considerably higher; this beer has a full body and medium to high residual malt sweetness in the finish. Nor do I tend to believe the F.G. value in in Clone Brews of about 1.030, which would calculate to an absurdly high O.G. of 1.200. My own guess for the F.G. of Samichlaus would be about 1.020, which would lead to a calculated O.G. of 1.133. That seems much more reasonable to me.

Incidentally, the calculated real extract (also called real attenuation or RDF) for a beer with an O.G. of 1.133 and F.G. of 1.020 is 71 percent. That's 29 percent residual sugars by weight and it seems very much in the ballpark to me.

Now of course someone willing to enjoy a bottle of Samichlaus and spend a little time with their hydrometer could enlighten us further here. Ah, such sweet sacrifice for the sake of science.
 

Walt Fischer (66.55.17.165)
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 11:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I actually hydro'd a bottle of Sami before i brewed it...
I whipped out the CO2 and came up with .. drum roll....

1.012

I started at 1.114

We'll see...:)
Walt
 

Adam W (128.125.35.191)
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 11:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmmmm
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 11:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Adam, you took the words (ha!) out of my mouth.

If what Walt says is true (and if his beer finishes at 1.012) I'll be damned if I know how they get more than 89 percent apparent attenuation out of a beer that's 90 percent malt. Walt, what was the sugar percentage of your beer?
 

Adam W (128.125.35.191)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 12:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well if 1.012 is true, then Sami BY FAR has the most mouthfeel of any 1.012 beer I've ever tasted in my life...

Just on a purely sensory basis I would have guessed nothing lower than 1.020
 

John Schmidt (65.238.10.131)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 03:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

According to Promash, a beer that starts at 1.114 and finishes at 1.012 has a residual extract SG of 1.031. By comparison, a beer that starts at 1.050 and finishes at 1.012 has a residual extract of 1.019. Thus, Sami has about 50% more residual extract than the lower gravity beer with the same FG. That might explain the mouthfeel.

Keep keepin' us posted, Walt. And you spelled Samichlaus wrong again. ;)
 

Dave Witt (172.173.47.113)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 04:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good point, John, but wouldn't the 173% more alcohol thin the body back out again?

I'd like to know some of these European brewer's secrets like how they get Sami to ferment out, and how they get that tremendous head in a glass of Duvel. :)
 

Fredrik (213.114.44.219)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 06:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From what I recall Bill explaining body to me some threads back, it was more or less the viscosity(?) unless I got that wrong, and I recall that alcohol is actually even a bit more viscose than water. So I think what John said makes great sense. At least technically alcohol shouldn't decrease the viscosity.

/Fredrik
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 12:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No, Fredrik, ethanol has a lower specific gravity as water and is "thinner" with less body. High gravity beers such as Samichlaus have more body because of the high percentage of residual sugars, not because of the high alcohol, which actually decreases body.
 

Fredrik (62.20.8.148)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 01:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes alcohol has lower gravity than water, but higher viscosity (resistance to flow). A liquid can be thin, but still viscose. But I guess I still don't understand the meaning of "body"? First I thought body was "body of the flavour" but from the other thread (don't remember which one it was) I realised I was wrong and then I thought it was synonymous to viscosity? Now you got me confused again.

This is probably a really stupid question, but when beer judges determines body, what does it actually mean?

/Fredrik
 

Walt Fischer (24.221.196.114)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 02:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

to me, it means lack of thinness.. or the malt "flavor"...
But then.. i just drink em :)
Im a great spealler..:)

Walt
 

Walt Fischer (24.221.196.114)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Something like:
5 gallon batch -
20 lbs of Pilsener
1.00 lbs. Crystal 60L
.50 lbs. Vienna Malt
1.00 lbs. Candy Sugar

I only got like 65% eff on that batch.... i think cause it was just soo dern much malt..;>

Walt
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 02:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To me a beer that is light in body is thin and watery in consistency, not necessarily in flavor. Beers with more body have a thicker consistency, which would be logical because they have a higher F.G. and therefore are more dense.

Perhaps the better term for this quality relating to beer is "mouthfeel."
 

Joe Alf (24.144.108.51)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 03:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My Sami started at 1.129 and is down to 1.048.
I've racked it once and added stirred yeast starters a couple of times.Keeping it at 52d.
Has a big Belgian aroma.
I heard the guy who developed this yeast had some elaborate ways of treating the yeast.
One way to get a low FG without stressing the yeast that I considered was to take a large starter and slowly add the wort,keeping the osmotic pressure in check,and the yeast count getting bigger and bigger. Something like an IV drip.This would be better than pitching a big starter on a huge wort.
But after my last big Belgian went from 1.090 -1.012 in 10 days....
I also am now adding some minerals to my starters especially zinc.
Joe
 

Doug Pescatore (141.232.1.10)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 03:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Can anyone calculate the true attenuation of a beer that goes from 1.114 to 1.012? I would be interested in seeing that number.

-Doug
 

Walt Fischer (24.221.196.114)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 03:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yea.. ive still got a tube of WLP885 and might build another starter with it if this fermentation peters out early..
Ill rack it off, then add the new starter..
Champange yeast will be my last attack... if needed..
But for now.. its still chugging away :)
Im thinking, time will be what its really gonna take to make it to the end on this one.. heh
Took me 4 months, all in primary, to get my Golden Belgian from 1.111 to 1.011.
13.4% :)
And that was just with the WLP570 yeast..
Budda Bing!
That stuff rocked!

Walt
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 03:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug, here are the values using the formulas in ProMash:

O.G. 1.114
F.G. 1.012
Apparent Attenuation: 88.54 percent
Real Attenuation: 73.98 percent
Residual Extract: 1.0308
Alcohol by Weight: 10.68 percent
Alcohol by Volume: 13.66 percent
 

Fredrik (62.20.8.148)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 03:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is quite off topic but I have always been fascinated by the power of definitions, choice of axioms and language :) This body thing is just an example, but it is striking how much conflicts and disagreement from small to large that actually boils down to just inconsistent definitions or choice of axioms. Two religious people may disagree on what "god says", but are their gods the same? Maybe if they both realise that their gods are different there is less disagreement than what is apparent. Ok, just wanted to mention this because it has always fascinated me :) Back to business.

/Fredrik
 

Doug Pescatore (141.232.1.10)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 04:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill,
How does the real attenuation of Samiclaus compare with other popular brews and views recipes like Denny's RyePA and Skot's B52?

I know B52 has a ton of honey, but I was just interested.

Walt, Wasn't the OG really 1.141 or something like that? I thought you originally reported the wrong OG and then corrected it later.

-Doug
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug, Skotrat claims an O.G. and F.G. of 1.060 and 1.004, repectively, for B52. That's a real attenuation of 77 percent (apparent attenuation 93 percent). Frankly, that seems high to me. In my experience the F.G. is 1.007, for a real and apparent attenuation of 73 and 88 percent, respectively.

I know the calculated O.G. for Denny's Rye IPA is 1.073. Denny, what is your typical F.G. for this beer?
 

Chris Colby (66.25.196.39)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 05:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just for reference, my CRC handbook gives the density of ethyl alcohol as 0.791 g/cc at 20 °C. Water, by definition, has a density of 1.000 g/cc [a cc (cubic centimeter) equals a milliliter (mL), BTW]. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to come up with the specific gravity of ethanol 8-)


Chris Colby
Bastrop, TX
 

Ken Anderson (216.150.171.20)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 05:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why does ProMash come up with 88.54 when
((1.114-1.012)/.114)100 = 89.47?
 

John Schmidt (65.238.10.111)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 05:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Water, by definition, has a density of 1.000 g/cc..."

That would imply that the standard of either the gram or the centimeter is the density of water, which it is not. A meter is the distance light travels in a vacuum in 1/299,792,458 seconds, and a kilogram is based on the mass of a particular metal cylinder, which, I believe, is kept in Paris.

According to my fluid dynamics text, the density of water at 20 °C is 0.9982 g/ml. (Water is about 1 g/ml at it's densest point, which is about 4 °C.) Therefore, the SG (20°C/20°C) of ethanol is 0.792.

I'm a nerd.
 

Richard Shaffer (64.35.155.194)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 05:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris, I use a proof hydrometer to measure my ethanol. My TG hydrometer only goes to .990. I guess you could use the law of volumetrics using distilled water with the ethanol to come up with a value. I usually get 95% ethanol on one of my brew rigs. Richard.
 

John Schmidt (65.238.10.111)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 05:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's interesting, Ken. I think Promash must do the calculation internally in degrees Plato. 100(26.78-3.07)/26.78 ~= 88.536.
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 05:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

An average FG for the Rye IPA is in the 1.014 area, IIRC. I'd have to cheack my notes to be more accurate. It kinda varies, since that's one area I still have problems with.
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 05:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bingo, John. You're exactly correct.
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 06:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Then according to Denny's figures the real attenuation and apparent attenuation for his Rye IPA are 67 percent and 80 percent, respectively. That's quite healthy for the yeast strain he uses (Brewtek CL-50).
 

Doug Pescatore (141.232.1.10)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 06:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The reason why I argue the "it can achieve 1.012 and still have body" point is that I was once on the other side of the coin with B52. I figured that even with all that honey, you could never get to 1.007 (or 1.004 for that matter) with all that carapils in the recipe. I did not take into account the SG of alcohol and that apparent attenuation is a relative measurement. When we are dealing with big beers I think real attenuation is a better measure. B52 and Samiclaus are in the same area as far as real attenuation is concerned. The problem is that B52 has a bunch of honey in it, so I think that 1.012 can be reached but that the original yeast will need help (maybe from another yeast cake or from champagne yeast). But is can be done.

-Doug
 

Ken Anderson (216.150.171.20)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 06:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So it's an exercise in futility to calculate apparent attenuation with a hydrometer?
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 06:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No, Ken, not at all. You can use hydrometer readings in specific gravity units to calculate apparent attenuation (that's how most of us do it). All John was pointing out is that ProMash (and most brewing software) converts specific gravity to degrees Plato for the internal calculations. There are going to be some small differences in the results because the conversion isn't linear and relies on a polynomial fit. There are a variety of formulas that are similar but not quite the same.
 

Brew Labs (150.159.224.8)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 08:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

what kinda hops (and schedule) go into a samichlaus?
 

Joe Alf (24.144.108.51)
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 11:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I ended up with 44 IBUs,according to Promash.
Used Magnum @ 50 ,Tettnanger @ 25,Styrian Goldings @ 10,and Saaz @ 2.
Joe
 

Chris Colby (66.25.196.39)
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 01:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John Schmidt says:

"Water is about 1 g/ml at it's densest point, which is about 4 °C." [not 20 °C for 1 g/cc]

Whoops -- yep, I was misremembering.


Chris Colby
Bastrop, TX
 

Walt Fischer (24.221.196.114)
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 07:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ahh yup.. i first reported something like 1.140..
but mis read it.. it was really 1.114
And the time i brewed B52, i got an FG of 1.004.
And got an FG with denny's of something like 1.015.

Bring it arrrrround townnnnn....:)
Walt
 

Walt Fischer (24.221.196.114)
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 03:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

hmm..my sami was -
5 gallons:
1.25 Northern Brewer - 120 mins
.5 Tettnanger Tettnang - 15 min
.5 Hallertauer Mittelfruh - 2 min
37.4 IBU's


Yup.. i boiled for 2 hours.. :)
I also used a about 1.1 qts per pound at mash... prob why i ended up with less eff then i usually get as well..

Walt

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