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Wortgames
New Member
Username: Wortgames
Post Number: 21
Registered: 06-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 03:39 am: | 
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A few months ago I picked up about 10 kegs for free, which had been sitting in a junk yard for years (without lids). The lids and a regulator were kept separately in a box and are in good condition 
When I emptied them, the kegs had all sorts of junk in them (steel offcuts, cutlery, leaves, spiders, mud etc). I have had them soaking for ages in CLR (Calcium, Lime & Rust remover) but obviously they still have rust marks inside.
Any suggestions on the best way to really clean them?!
I will probably get an extension rod welded onto a circular stainless wire brush so that I can give them a good scrub using an electric drill, but it will take a while before I can get that done so I was wondering if there were any chemicals or techniques I should try in the meantime? |
J. Steinhauer
Advanced Member
Username: Jstein6870
Post Number: 544
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 04:16 am: |
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Any oxalic acid cleanser, like Barkeeper's Friend then airdried. I would avoid the wire brush, if you can. |
hbadvocate
Junior Member
Username: Hbadvocate
Post Number: 30
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 12:27 pm: |
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Just a quick note, if you have to use a wire brush use only stainless steel scrubbers or possibly copper (???) If my memory serves me right using other kinds will cause pieces of the scrubber to inbed into the pots surface and cause rusting |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 2503
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 12:59 pm: |
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What HBA is saying is not to abrade the stainless with mild steel scrubbers (wire brushes, pads, steel wool, etc.) This will embed tiny pieces of the mild steel in the stainless that will cause rusting. |
Wortgames
New Member
Username: Wortgames
Post Number: 22
Registered: 06-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 01:20 pm: |
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Point taken, but these kegs are pretty nasty down the bottom and I think scrubbing may be the only option.
I will see if I can get hold of some oxalic acid cleanser, I haven't seen Barkeeper's Friend locally but I'm sure I can get something suitable.
Any idea how long I should soak them for? |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 2505
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 01:30 pm: |
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It will take scrubbing as well as soaking, Wortgames. Use a nylon scrubbing pad along with an abrasive cleaner that contains oxalic acid. |
Wortgames
New Member
Username: Wortgames
Post Number: 23
Registered: 06-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 01:38 pm: |
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You mean I'll have to resort to physical labour? You sure there's not some nasty toxic chemical that will do it while I watch TV and drink this nice wheat beer?  |
Paul Edwards
Advanced Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 594
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 01:40 pm: |
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Wortgames,
Both Barkeeper's Friend and Zud can be found on the cleanser aisle at most any grocery store. Both contain oxalic acid, and work well.
I prefer Zud because it's usually cheaper than BKF at my grocery store. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 2506
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 01:54 pm: |
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Wortgames is in Australia. I confess I don't know what products are available there, but the label should list the ingredients.
By the way, nitric acid would do the job, if it didn't eat through your skin and your lungs first.
(Message edited by BillPierce on March 03, 2005) |
John McElver
Member
Username: Johnmc
Post Number: 162
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 05:34 pm: |
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There's also some stuff sold by Revere, something like "Revere-ware cleaner" or some such nonsense. It's also oxalic acid.
I'm with Paul, Zud is always cheaper around here than BKF. Store brand's even better; it's all the same chemistry |
Paul Edwards
Advanced Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 595
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 06:11 pm: |
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Oxalic acid powder is sold as "Wood Bleach". Check you hardware store or painting supply store. This is much concentrated than the amount of oxalic acid in BKF or Zud, so warnings about proper protective gear (gloves, eye protection, etc) apply!!
Found this on a website at Purdue University
"Rust reacts with oxalic acid to produce a colorless, water-soluble complex ion (i.e., [Fe(C2O4)3]3-) which contains the bidentate ligand, oxalate ion. Because the complex ion is water-soluble it can be washed away."
So now you know the chemistry behind it  |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 2512
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 06:17 pm: |
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Paul, that's good to know. I hadn't realized that wood bleach is oxalic acid. |
Paul Edwards
Advanced Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 596
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 06:56 pm: |
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It's amazing what a google search will turn up!
Hey, I googled my wife last night...
Not all wood bleaches are oxalic acid.
two part (A/B) wood bleaches are hydrogen peroxide mixed with sodium hydroxide right before application.
So, RTFL* applies
* "read the effing label" |
Wortgames
New Member
Username: Wortgames
Post Number: 24
Registered: 06-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 07:31 am: |
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Hi all, thanks for your help.
Had a hard time finding it - it seems that most products here don't actually tell you what's in it, they tell you what it does, and even at the giant hardware stores the staff aren't exactly employed for their knowledge of chemistry. [rant on] so they ask you what it's for, simply so they can say 'oh no, we don't have anything like that'. Grrr. Honestly, you guys in the states don't know how fortunate you are in some respects, having such a large population - even the 'niche' hobbies are catered to. I couldn't imagine finding a product called 'barkeepers friend' in the supermarket! What would your average housewife use it for?! [rant off]
Anyway, finally managed to find a bottle of liquid oxalic acid, thanks to Paul's tip about wood bleach. It's a 10% solution, and for timber restoration it advises mixing 1:4 with water.
Any tips on whether that's a good ratio for what I need to do? Should I let it stand for a while or not? It says to avoid contact with metal (!) so I'm guessing it shouldn't sit overnight, would that be right? |
Paul Edwards
Advanced Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 598
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 12:48 pm: |
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I'd err on the side of diluting the liquid stuff a lot, and work your way up to what works.
Since the oxalic acid cleanser I use has an abrasive quality, you might want to try diluting the liquid oxalic acid, then mixing it with some houshold cleanser into a paste, then using the paste to scrub the rust stains. Just make sure that whatever you mix the oxalic acid with DOESN"T contain sodium hypochlorite (bleach). The two aren't compatible. Wear eye protection an rubber gloves, too. Can't be too careful!!
The label on Zud doesn't list the percentage of oxalic acid it contains.
Another source for oxalic acid (in powder form) is DAP wood bleach. Not sure if it's available down under, tho.
(Message edited by pedwards on March 04, 2005) |
Wortgames
New Member
Username: Wortgames
Post Number: 25
Registered: 06-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 04:49 am: |
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Thanks Paul, I'll use a scrubber but I think I'll leave the mixing of chemicals to the experts!
A green little chemist
on a green little day
mixed some green little chemicals
in a green little way.
Now green little grasses
do tenderly wave
over a green little chemist's
green little grave... |
Wortgames
Junior Member
Username: Wortgames
Post Number: 26
Registered: 06-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 11:29 am: |
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Just a quick thanks to everyone for the advice, I now have a veritable fleet of clean shiny kegs.
I mixed the oxalic acid to about 10 parts water (with the acid already being a 10% solution that gives me about 100:1), and all but one keg cleaned up nicely without resorting to the wire brush treatment.
I bought a great toilet brush from the hardware store, an industrial looking thing with stiff bristles all round and a thread in the handle for an extension rod, and it did a fantastic job of getting right in there and scrubbing the insides of the kegs.
For the stubborn one I used a soft stainless wire brush attachment intended to screw onto an angle grinder, instead screwed onto a length of threaded rod passing through some plastic pipe and into a hand drill. Worked like a charm.  |
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