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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2006 * Archive through February 02, 2006 * Poll: Cold break removal? < Previous Next >

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Paul Edwards
Advanced Member
Username: Pedwards

Post Number: 918
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 70.236.6.5
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 02:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, Collective, last nite at our BJCP study class, a heated discusssion on the necessity for removing cold break from wort prior to fermentation developed.

One person said it "was essential", another said, "not necessary"

What do you do and why?

If you work or have worked in a commercial brewery, what do you/did you do w.r.t. cold break?

For the record, I don't remove cold break. Never have. I figure it settles out in the primary.
 

Randy McCord
Advanced Member
Username: Mccord

Post Number: 563
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 216.174.177.152
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 02:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I do the same as you.
 

dhacker
Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 176
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 70.156.47.66
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 02:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've never made a point to remove cold break, it has pretty much taken care of itself using an immersion chiller. That said, I shut the ball valve off as the drain starts to pick it up, thereby leaving a very small amount of wort behind in the BK. I've always been willing to sacrifice a few ounces of wort to keep the gunk out. I suppose that is why as I transition to a CFC, I'm inclined to still keep it out of the fermenter, though apparently any concerns are unjustified.

Essential? NO

Preferable? Who the he** knows?!
 

Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1344
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.141.10
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 03:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The guy that said the removal is "essential" was mistaken. He's repeating something he heard, obviously with no first-hand experience.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 4537
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 03:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It provides yeast nutrients and it's all left behind when the beer is racked to secondary and/or the serving keg or bottling bucket. Almost no commercial breweries do a separate cold break/trub removal step.

That's enough to convince me.
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 2887
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 62.20.8.114
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 03:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm sure you can list a number of valid reason to do it either way, it's known that cloudy wort has measureable impacts on fermentation, but "essential" sounds like quite an exaggeration to me too.

/Fredirk
 

Drew Pattison
Junior Member
Username: Droopy

Post Number: 90
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 143.115.159.54
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 03:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

SOP for many commercial breweries is to whirlpool prior to chilling then chilling with a plate chiller. Much of the trub settles out in the whirlpool but I don't think the cold break would since the wort has not yet been chilled.

So, I think many commercial breweries end up with cold break in the fermenter...

Personally, I use a CFC and the break goes into the fermenter.
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 2888
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 62.20.8.114
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On the positive side, like Bills indicates cloudy wort has been shown to ofte lead to more vigorous fermentations indicating more happy yeast. (note though, that this doesn't necessarily mean it gets more tasty)

I read a paper on that not too long ago, and to make a long story short: The conclusion was that the two most significant single reasons why cloudy wort make a more vigorous fermentation was

1) unsaturated fatty acids in the trub serve as nutrition to yeast, stimulating growth.

2) cloudy wort gets a lower level of supersaturation by acting as nucleation sites (in effect "lowering the CO2 headpressure"), stimulating yeast growth. This was confirmed by instead of trub, having similarly sized suspended solids, that did the same job nucleationwise.

On the flavour formation side it gets more complex though, but there are most ceratinly some effects there too, but none I can see that qualifies for considering removal "essential".

Another possibility is how the break material reacts of the acidification that occurs during fermentation. Perhaps the longer exposure of break material in wort may have some subtle effects as well.

/Fredrik
 

Miker
Intermediate Member
Username: Miker

Post Number: 374
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 69.15.183.207
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 04:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm surprised cold break would bring such a heated discussion.

The heated discussion is usually about the need to remove the hot break.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 1756
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 141.232.1.1
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 04:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cold break removal is a byproduct of my chilling process. (throw warm/hot wort in bottling bucket and throw bottling bucket into fermentation fridge over night....next day open spigot and let drain into fermenter.....very clear wort)

I can tell you that without a doubt to my taste I have not noticed any difference. To my eye I have seen not increase in clarity. To my hydrometer (if I take a measurement) I have seen no change in my FGs.

-Doug
 

brewer of beer
New Member
Username: Brewbeer22

Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 216.41.89.234
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 04:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I remove it much in the same manner as dhacker. I generally re-use my primary fermentors (6.7 g. carboys) several times by racking the finished (fermented) beer out, then racking newly brewed wort onto the existing yeast cake, without cleaning the carboys. So for my brewing process, the primary reason for cold break removal is to prevent the build-up of “stuff” other than yeast in the primary fermentors.
 

Rob Farrell
Intermediate Member
Username: Robf

Post Number: 298
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 165.247.80.60
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 05:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I use a CFC, and my beer tastes good.
 

Ned Buntline
Junior Member
Username: Ned_buntline

Post Number: 43
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 141.150.200.123
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 05:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fredrik wrote:

"On the flavour formation side it gets more complex though..."

Well, if there are flavor implications, I'm leaving the cold break in. I like my beers and have never removed the cold break.
 

Paul Hayslett
Advanced Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 960
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 67.163.171.138
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 05:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

After chilling, I dump the contents of my kettle into a fermenter. Wort, cold break, hot break, hop crud, perhaps leaves and bugs on a windy day -- it all goes in.

I used to let things settle after chilling (I use an IC) and try to pour off just the clear wort. That's because I used to reuse my yeast a lot and wanted it fairly clean. But I stopped when I stopped reusing yeast so much. Like Doug, I have found absolutely zero difference in the finished beer with the two methods.
"Vime's approach to paperwork was not to touch it until someone was shouting, and then at least there would be someone to help him sort through the stacks." -- Terry Pratchett
 

Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1346
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.141.10
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 05:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Paul, you're one tiny step away from fermenting in the kettle. Cool, pitch, aerate, cover, clean up.

Granted, this is easier to do if you have a few Sanke kettles.

Ken
 

Bill Ballinger
New Member
Username: Willy_bill

Post Number: 2
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 40.0.40.10
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 06:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Paul, I found this article for you to take back to your BJCP meeting. Cold Trub:
Implications for Finished Beer, and Methods of Removal by Rob Barchet originally published in brewing techniques.

http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.2/barchet.html

"....It is widely believed that removing all cold trub not only has no benefit, but actually might slow fermentation and harm the finished beer, reportedly giving it an onion-like flavor. Stroh Brewing Co. reported slower fermentation, higher acetate ester levels, and lower yeast growth and viability after removing all cold trub from test batches (6). Further experiments showed another effect of the complete elimination of trub: the absence of nucleation sites during fermentation resulted in a supersaturation of carbon dioxide in the wort; high levels dissolved carbon dioxide inhibit fermentation. Stroh's work revealed the importance of having at least some wort solids present to act as carbon dioxide nucleation sites.

Removing at least some cold trub, however, has been shown to improve yeast viability and the quality of finished beers...."

According this article you have a tie, both parties were slightly correct in their assumptions.
 

Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1347
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.141.10
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 06:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't know. The guy that said it was not necessary was a hell of a lot closer to the truth than the guy who said it was essential.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 1757
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 141.232.1.1
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 06:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sounds like someone from the green board is trying to pass their BJCP exam.
 

Paul Edwards
Advanced Member
Username: Pedwards

Post Number: 921
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 70.236.6.5
Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 02:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, everybody.

the two parties involved have settled their differences. They now agree that removing majority of cold break might help in certain specific circumstances
 

Tom Gardner
Advanced Member
Username: Tom

Post Number: 748
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 67.190.167.138
Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 03:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Heh, heh. Glad we cleared that up. Tom
 

Graham Cox
Intermediate Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 359
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.248.92
Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 05:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have read that it is much more important to remove break material from paler beers, especially lagers, than from ales in general. Having never done a side-by-side (and never intending to), I cannot personally endorse the admonitions to do so.

I have attempted several times to allow my wort to settle in one carboy, then racking above the break material into another. I usually end up creating a big mess, losing wort, and greatly increasing the chances of infection by mucking around with the wort when it was probably better left alone.

As someone said above, I like my beers. They generally ferment out, they're clear, and they taste good. Maybe I'm falling into a rut, but I fail to see a big reason to monkey with success.
 

Marty Michael
New Member
Username: Carwash

Post Number: 24
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 161.114.32.91
Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 09:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I use an immersion chiller and leave a little bit of the muck (trub, cold break, hops, etc) in my brewpot. I dont worry about anything that makes it to primary from there as I rack to secondary in 1-2 weeks. Anyway, I recently ordered (yeah, I was too lazy to make one from a washer hose) a bazooka screen. I am not sure if that will help much but I have started brewing with hop plugs instead of pellets and the screen and hops should form a pretty nice natural filter.
 

Sean Richens
Intermediate Member
Username: Sean

Post Number: 272
Registered: 04-2001
Posted From: 142.161.98.237
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 01:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

P*** on it, one light lager left to go this brewing season, one split batch coming up. Report in, oh, 6 months.
 

Rob Schlank
New Member
Username: Speyedr

Post Number: 6
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 68.163.23.7
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 04:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I use an immerssion chiller, whirlpool after the wort is cool with a sanitized spoon (of course) and then transfer to the Fermenter. If there is enough wort to leave trub behind in the kettle, great. If not it goes in the fermenter. I rack to secondary within a week for ales, 10-days for lagers.