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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2006 * Archive through June 28, 2006 * Dual Chillers < Previous Next >

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Peter Roman
Advanced Member
Username: Lilbordr

Post Number: 836
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 12.2.115.11
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 07:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Greetings,
I am no longer living in the frozen @$$ crack of the earth known as Rochester, NY. I'm now in Charlotte, NC. The one thing I found I have missed about NY is cold chill water year round. In Rochester I could get 40F water in the winter and 52F in the summer. It is only May here in NC and already my tap water is at 70F. I'm affraid to think about what I will see in August . Currently I have a 25' 1/2" ID all-copper CFC as well as a 25' 1/2" ID hermes coil. Two brew sessions ago I used only my CFC as I always have to chill 13 gal of wort. It took more than an hour! This last time I had an idea. I built a jumper that would run from the warm water exaust of my CFC to my herms coil which I would use as an immersion chiller. I was able to get the wort (in kettle) down to about 100F, and then the fermenter wort down to 70F. Does anyone else use this hybrid system? Is there anyway I could be doing this better? One friend suggested putting the the herms coil in a bucket of ice as a prechiller to help out the CFC. I wish I had taken a picture of this chilling setup to give everyone a better idea of what I'm talking about. Any opinions are welcome!

Thanks,
Peter 'the kid' Roman
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 5484
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.224.243
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 08:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Peter, be glad you aren't in Texas, where the tap water temperature can be in the mid 80s F in the summer. By comparison, when I lived in Salt Lake City the water temperature in January was 38 F.

You have identified a problem all brewers face in southern climates. You have a couple of choices. You can use an immersion chiller to chill the wort into the 80s and than a second (or the same) chiller immersed in an ice-water bath to bring it down the rest of the way. I prefer using a counterflow chiller followed by the immersion chiller in ice water as a post-chiller. You can also pre-chill the tap water for either a counterflow or immersion chiller with a second chiller in an ice-water bath, but this uses a lot more ice than post-chilling the wort. The volume of liquid to be chilled is less, as is the temperature differential between the two liquids.

By the way, the forecast for Rochester for the upcoming holiday weekend is for temperatures in the upper 70s to 80 F. That doesn't sound like a frozen wasteland to me.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 2867
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 08:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Run the wort through your CFC to knock most of the BTUs out of it, then run the wort through an immersion soaking in a bucket of ice to finish it off. Attempting to cool the water to a CFC is very wasteful compared to post chilling the wort from a CFC.

Dan

--This space is again being left intentionally blank.-


 

PaulK
Intermediate Member
Username: Paulk

Post Number: 400
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 68.84.198.40
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 08:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ha! 70? That's arctic water here. My ground water is already around 80 and will go up around 95 on the summer. With the current chilly water, a 50' immersion pre-chiller in ice in combo with my Chillzilla works fine. Later when the water is hotter I'll use the immersion to knock the initial temp. down in the wort then switch the immersion back over to its pre-chiller duty with the counterflow.
 

robert rulmyr
Advanced Member
Username: Wacobob

Post Number: 773
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 24.155.7.134
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 10:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Exactly what Dan says. My tap water will be >90 in another month. I chill 5 gallons of water, and all of the ice from my freezer. Chill the BK down to about 100, then connect the post chiller and pump to fermenters ( 10 gallons ).
 

Connie
Advanced Member
Username: Connie

Post Number: 772
Registered: 10-2000
Posted From: 24.98.248.244
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 01:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I shut down for the hot Summer months. I'll be brewing again in late September.
 

dhacker
Intermediate Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 286
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 72.155.214.99
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ahh . . the fortune of well water.

Even though I live in TN, water coming from 220 ft. down stays around 60f year round.
 

Cory Kelm
Junior Member
Username: Galaxy51

Post Number: 29
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 72.24.239.45
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 02:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Peter, I have yet to finish it but have a sankey 2 keg system that will replace my 3 kegger. The boil kettle which will also be the hot liquer tun, has removeable dual coils inside, attached to the keg wall with unions, which will serve the double duty you describe. When the kettle is used to heat lauter water the coils can serve as a herms coils and after using the kettle to boil, the coils could be attached to, and used as, an extension of the counterflow chiller to pre chill the wort. The cooling would happen in 2 stages. For the first stage, using tap water, only the immersion type coil would be functional, using it to bring the wort to around 100-120 degrees. At that time the wort would be allowed to run through the counter flow for further cooling. In the summer, prior to stage two, I could then switch from tap water to ice water and pump it to the counter flow chiller where it would exit and pass through the immersion chiller. About all I need to do differently with this 2 keg settup is to use a grant sufficient in size to hold the runnoff from the mashtun untill the hot liquer tun has emptied so it can be used to boil in. The main grant will be a 10 gallon stainless kettle with an aluminum clad bottom that works great for boiling decoctions.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 5489
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.224.243
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 02:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cory, have you considered using the grant with an immersion coil as a wort post-chiller? I suspect you are going to grow tired of removing and reinstalling the coils in your kettle. The unions have a limited number of cycles before they begin to leak.
 

Cory Kelm
Junior Member
Username: Galaxy51

Post Number: 30
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 72.24.239.45
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 02:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, but I wanted to eliminate exposing the wort to the atmosphere while chilling to avoid any airborne source of contamination. That is why I want to run the coils through the boil keg walls. (I can keep a lid on the kettle after shutting down the boil) Thank you for the info on leaking unions. That would ruin all my good intentions. I will have to pressure test them after every installation. The good thing is that they will not have to contain much pressure. I have been using these unions in both mash tun and boil kettle to attach removeable screens. They are copper unions and so far I have not been aware of any leaks.
 

Beerboy AKA The Jolly Brewer
Senior Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 1145
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 86.128.168.78
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 03:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In England, the air rarely gets upto 95 let alone the water!
 

brewer of beer
Junior Member
Username: Brewbeer22

Post Number: 29
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 216.41.89.234
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 05:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I do as Connie - shut down between June and mid November, when chilling water and fermentation temps are higher than ideal for my set-up (immersion chiller and ambient temp fermentation). I've got a 75 gallon stockpile to get me through the heat to next fall.
 

Vince Turley
Intermediate Member
Username: Vince

Post Number: 270
Registered: 05-2003
Posted From: 192.91.171.42
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 08:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I live in TX (D/FW area), and after several years of battling this issue, I finally have developed a process that works.

At the end of the boil, I pump from the BK through the my CFC with normal tap-water (lets say 85oF) counter-flow, and return to the BK. I do this recirculation for 15 minutes "+". Then just before the water input to the CFC I splice in a 20' coil of 1/2" copper tubing that is immersed in a ice-bath; I then stir the ice-bath and re-direct the output to the fermentor. I have found this process to be sound and reproducible in obtaining mid to high 60's wort temperature.
 

The Beav
New Member
Username: Thebeav

Post Number: 20
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 70.180.173.111
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 07:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Peter, I have used 2 immersion chillers quite effectively in the summer months in Las Vegas (current temp is 105F). My big trick is instead of putting the pre-chiller in a bucket of ice water, I freeze the pre-chiller in a block of ice. 2 days before I brew I fill a bottling bucket with water, insert an immersion chiller and put it in a chest freezer. When it is time to cool the wort, I initially use only the regular immersion chiller in the wort until the temp drops to about 100F. I then add my pre-chiller which is now frozen in a solid block of ice. This will drop the temp own the rest of the way pretty effectively.
 

Kurt Schweter
Member
Username: Kschweter

Post Number: 162
Registered: 07-2002
Posted From: 71.106.233.157
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 01:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

cfc to herms coil - packed with ice and water -
wort down to 56 on Saturday- using the herms lets you mix the amount going throught the second chiller
by using the bypass loop on the herms
you can hit whatever temp you want
beach water supply in SoCal is in the mid 70's
 

Kurt Schweter
Member
Username: Kschweter

Post Number: 163
Registered: 07-2002
Posted From: 71.106.233.157
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 01:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

just to add -
with this method, I do not have to reconfigure any equipment in my system
I use a pump to push the wort throught the chillers

(Message edited by kschweter on June 05, 2006)
 

Nate Kendrick
New Member
Username: N8sbrewing

Post Number: 25
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 209.232.158.20
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 03:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey, I live in So Cal it's not exactly cool here. I've been using two 50' copper coils. Tap water to coil in ice bath then to immersion in kettle. Used to take about 45+ minutes to cool 10gal. About 3 sessions ago I got the Therminator plate cooler. I can use it by it self and cool to pitching in about 15 min, no stirring and standing over the hot kettle. The best investment I've made yet.
 

Kurt Schweter
Member
Username: Kschweter

Post Number: 165
Registered: 07-2002
Posted From: 71.106.233.157
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 04:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

the tap water's in the 70's -
thank god I live close to the beach -
palm springs will be in 100's today !
 

dave star
Member
Username: Dave_star

Post Number: 129
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 66.245.129.94
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 05:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://home.earthlink.net/~davidstar58/pages/chiler.htm
dave
 

Tim Wi
Intermediate Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 435
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 170.141.68.2
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 06:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Peter,

I use two immersion chillers. I pre-chill tap water with one. It sits in a 48 qt cooler packed with ice and rock salt. Water temps in the cooler are below freezing that way.

No problem chilling 5 gallons to 60 in 20 minutes in summer with 80 tap water.

dhacker, what beer style do you like with the Paris Fish Fry?

T
 

Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 2313
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.49.148.10
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 08:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've been shut down but it hasn't been because of the water temps. Just a lack of brewing time.

Many ways to accomplish the same thing. I just use 1 IC. Chill with tap water to about 100-120. Then I switch over to recirculating ice water through the IC with my pump. I use my old MT cooler to hold the ice water. I throw in some frozen milk jugs and some bag ice. Never resorted to putting rock salt in it. I can get in the 50's for lagers this way.
 

dhacker
Intermediate Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 291
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 65.4.204.49
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 10:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tim,

Fish Fry has come and gone for this year . . Unfortunately, I did not get to go because of doing the massive fireworks display for the Strawberry Festival Humboldt, TN that week. Haven't really thought too much about which beer to enlist to wash down 39 varieties of greasy victuals all from the brown food group.

I can tell ya, much to nobody's surprise, that anything with the word "Lite" attached to it, flows freely!!

Perhaps I'll concoct a "Yellowbelly Pussyfish" (or is that fishypuss) IPA for next year . . .
 

Tim Wi
Intermediate Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 437
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 68.119.106.112
Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 01:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The brown food group, that's a good un. Only characteristic of a member of that group that changes on its disturbingly rapid journey through the G.I. tract is its texture.

I lived in Humboldt for years. Funny, I almost asked you about the Strawberry Festival too, knowing that you are nearly dead center between Humboldt and Paris.

Go Titans.

T
 

Paul Muth
Member
Username: Pjmuth

Post Number: 248
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 66.20.174.89
Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 04:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yesterday I had the opportunity to participate with Peter in a brew session and I had a lot of fun. I brought along some bits and pieces to see if I could build something to help in the wort cooling process. I built a hose end shutoff, a few hose setups and fabricated a 1/2" immersion chiller coil for him as a post chiller.

His cooling process ended up this way at flame out: Hot wort to pump > pump to CFC > CFC to immersion coil post chiller in 10 gallon cooler full of ice > immersion chiller to fermenter.

Next is the cooling water path: House water to CFC > CFC cooling water discharge to immersion chiller placed in boil kettle > Kettle chiller discharge to sprinkler head in the yard.

He cooled 13 gallons of wort to 59.5 in just under 10 minutes. The house water temp was at 79. What a trip.! We monitored temps continuously and it proved out that with an immersion chiller, constant movement of the coil and/or the bath is a must to maintain a decent heat transfer rate. I'm very sure that we could have dropped the temp down much lower by throttling the pump down some.

Anyway, I had a hell of a lot of fun and am impressed with Peter's setup. Thanks Peter for the invite!
 

Peter Roman
Advanced Member
Username: Lilbordr

Post Number: 837
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 12.2.115.11
Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 09:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah that is one crazy setup! I now have not one, not two, but THREE chillers. I can't believe we were able to run my pump full throttle and still cool to 60F. Paul, you gotta post some of those pics wer took!

Cheers,
Peter 'the kid' Roman