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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2006 * Archive through December 05, 2006 * Water Question < Previous Next >

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lou
New Member
Username: Lou

Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 65.26.92.249
Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 04:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all,

I'm a long time lurker and have been trying to figure out water chemistry. I've decided that I'm not that interested in the actual chemistry and now seek the easy answer.

Can anyone please tell me what to do in terms of dilution or mineral additions for the following styles?

Pale Ale/IPA
Stout/Porter
Belgians

I live in Kansas City, MO. Here is what I've found about the water I have (from http://www.brewing.schmidt-house.com/waterResults.asp):
Ca 37.9
Mg 5.21
BiCarb 37.82
Sulfate 150
Na 48.4
Cl 24
Hardness 116
Alkalinity 31
RA 17
PH 9.8

Sorry to ask another water question.
 

michael atkins
Intermediate Member
Username: Mga

Post Number: 474
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 71.214.30.107
Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 05:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lou - Welcome to the board. This is a great place to ask questions and share answers.

Your water that you referenced from the spreadsheet regarding KC, Mo. is very good water, especially for brewing lighter style Belgiums (such as Tripples), Pale Ales, and IPA's. You probably do not need to adjust your water at all for these styles.
If you do adjust your water I would do so to get the calcium up over 50 with .25g of calcium chloride. I suggest cc rather than gypsum because you already have adequate sulfate at 150 already.

For porters and stouts and darker beers,I would adjust with Calcium Carbonate to get the RA (residual alkalinity)higher. For the darker Belgiums I would do the same.

Two concerns that I have is in the water report that you reference. There is a "column" in the spreadsheet that references that "Chloramine" is "Unknown". This is something you as an allgrain brewer need to know, so I would suggest you obtain a water report, from your city water source to determine if "Chloramine" is used.

Also the RA that is mentioned in the report(17) is higher than I get. My numbers suggest RA=1. This can be explained by calculating Ca and Mg as CaCO3 rather than ppm. This will only affect the ideal SRM (SRM 5 vs. 7)slightly. But are we dealing with your water? Or is this some other brewers water in Kansas City?

This is just another reason IMO to get your own water report, even if you don't want to delve into water chemistry.

(Message edited by mga on November 26, 2006)
Love This Hobby!

http://msnusers.com/micksbrewery
 

KeepBrewing
Member
Username: Kb7

Post Number: 147
Registered: 05-2002
Posted From: 24.184.80.79
Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 07:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To ken shwarts home page and down load brewater 3.0 or get promash
http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/

I did a quick run through on brewater for

“ Mosher's Burton on Trent”
Ca-268, So4-638, Mg-62, Na-30, Cl-36, carb-141,

Your water must be boiled and allowed to cool.

(It does not have to be boiled how ever the error % in brewater 3.0 goes down when you do.)

Then decant into another kettle leaving the dregs of the boiled water on the bottom.

Then add 6.5 cups of distilled water per 9.5 cups of boiled water.
This will equal 1 gallon.
Do this for every gallon used in the brew.

Now that you have a base water for pale ale add these salts per gallon.

Got a gram scale? I picked up a diamond scale for 30 bucks accurate up to 0.01 grams

2.22 grams –Epsom salt -------------------0.48 teaspoon ( almost ½ tsp) per gallon
0.78 grams – Chalk ------------------------0.30 teaspoons ( big ¼ tsp) per gallon
0.12 grams – CaCl -------------------------0.35 teaspoon (big ¼ tsp) per gallon
2.34 grams - Gypsum ---------------------0.94 teaspoon (light tsp) per gallon

Your water will look something like this

Ca-257, So4-663, Mg-61, Na-31, Cl-33, carb-144 -----Brewater
Ca-268, So4-638, Mg-62, Na-30, Cl-36, carb-141, -----Mosher Burton water
 

Rob Beck
Intermediate Member
Username: Robbeck

Post Number: 298
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 66.142.237.37
Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 09:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi lou, I live in KCMO also and I usually dilute the tap water (filtered) with RO water. With the pH so high (it's over 10 right now) I also use phosphoric acid on both the mash and sparge water. The water dept. will send you a monthly water report, but they are usually 2 months behind. They are using chloramine and they are using slaked lime to treat the water. That's why the water is relatively low in calcium. I generally use calcium chloride on the blended water, except for English styles. For the English pales and IPAs, I also use gypsum and epsum salts.
I've got water reports going back to 1999 for each month and I'd be glad to copy them for you, if you're interested.
 

David Lewinnek
Intermediate Member
Username: Davelew

Post Number: 286
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 209.6.23.54
Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 12:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm trying to teach myself some water chemistry, and while I was following along at home, I came up with a discrepancy and traced it to different numbers for calcium chloride and epsom salts.

Promash and Brewater both list a gram of calcium chloride as contributing 72 ppm of calcium to a gallon of water.

northernbrewer.com says their CaCl2 contributes 95 ppm of calcium per gram per gallon. Working out the percentage of calcium and doing ppm by mass verifies the northernbrewer number.

So, a question for you water gurus out there. Which is the correct number to use?
 

KeepBrewing
Member
Username: Kb7

Post Number: 148
Registered: 05-2002
Posted From: 24.184.80.79
Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 12:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Best to ask Northern brewer. I have been brewing for years and use brewater and promash together. I found you only have to be close to the water profile to be successful. It is not a rocket science close is fine. What I have noticed is the difference in beer taste with water close to beer style water profile. I just sampled a brown ale from one of my carboys. I used “Fosters London Well Water ” profile from brewater. I was 13%- 20% in error of the profile. This beer tastes like a brown ale! Unlike some of the browns I have made in the past from straight tap water. The PacMan yeast was a big help also. I have just become a fan of this yeast.
 

lou
New Member
Username: Lou

Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 143.115.159.53
Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 03:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for your responses.

I believe all of KCMO is the same water (Rob, correct me if I’m wrong) so we should be dealing with the water for all brewers in KCMO – I live in the Waldo area if it makes any difference.

How does the chloramine affect things? I currently run all my brew water thru an inexpensive charcoal filter meant for a shower head and add a teaspoon of 5.2 powder to the hot liquor tank and mash tun. This is far under 5 Star’s recommended dosage but I read on the forum that someone in KC uses that amount so I went with it (and no – I have no reliable way of reading pH, I’m a very bad boy). Rob or other KC folks – do you have any experience with 5.2 and our water?

Maybe I better invest in some good pH strips (I have cheapies that are worthless) and acid.

I definitely like Michael’s recommendation of just using the water as is. Rob, why do you dilute and at what ratio? What amount of calcium chloride do you use? Same for gypsum and Epsom salts?

I don’t think I need reports back to 1999. Do you have a contact email or ph# to get the reports going forward?

Again, what I’m hoping to put together is a “Brew Water for Dummies” chart. Today I want to brew this style. The chart would tell me I should dilute with this much RO water per gallon, add this and that per gallon, etc.

I will look at Brewater 3.0 but to be honest I would like to keep it simple as possible and don’t think I’m interested in pre-boil/cool/transfer then adding 4 different salts.
 

David Lewinnek
Intermediate Member
Username: Davelew

Post Number: 287
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 209.6.23.54
Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 10:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I asked Northern Brewer about the differences between their numbers and the numbers in ProMash and BreWater. This was their response:

Dave-

We used published information regarding the Calcium Chloride. Perhaps
the computer programs, ProMash and BreWater are more up to date. The
texts we sourced may be older now. We'll investigate this information
and make changes as we deem necessary.
 

KeepBrewing
Member
Username: Kb7

Post Number: 151
Registered: 05-2002
Posted From: 24.184.80.79
Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 01:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Brewater is a free download and is as simple as possible

http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/