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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2010 * Archive through July 07, 2010 * Another sour beer thread < Previous Next >

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Steve H.
Member
Username: Steveh

Post Number: 172
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 208.58.41.130
Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2010 - 11:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all,

It's been awhile since I've written. Never had a sour beer until we took a trip to Europe last summer. Tried many types as we traveled between countries. Belgium was the best. Actually visited the Cantillon Brewery. Drank a few times in the Mort Subite bar. Great selection there. Very interesting and informative. Well, I'm about to plan my 1st sour beer. But, given the time recommended looking for some shortcuts. I will eventually do the yearlong process but I want to try the process described in the following link.

This link is from another homebrew discussion board. It's the board filled with "envy".

Not sure if copy and pasting from another board would be improper netiquette so I'm providing the link.

My initial question is if you fellow homebrewers have tried something like this and is there any danger of getting too sour by letting the wort sitting longer than identified. I'd prefer too sour than not enough. Thanks!!

Here's the link:

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=29637
 

Tim C.
Member
Username: Timc

Post Number: 205
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 98.209.225.175
Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2010 - 01:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So it is possible to make a sour beerr in less than 6 months. I may have to try this out. I think I may try souring a 20% portion of the mash and adding back to the main mash instead of souring the whole thing and hoping to catch it in time. My schedule would not allow for 18 hours of monitoring.
 

Alec
Junior Member
Username: Pdxal

Post Number: 67
Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 71.38.151.175
Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2010 - 05:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sounds a lot like a tweaked Berliner Weisse like I've made. I've got another sour now with a more complex grain bill that includes some dark crystal that tastes great too.
If you sour the mash instead of the runoff you can sparge as usual and save some work in the recipe.
 

Steve H.
Member
Username: Steveh

Post Number: 173
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 208.58.41.130
Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2010 - 09:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Alec,

Yes, I'm looking for a faster method. Then eventually I'll make a traditional one and get some idea how "different" they might be.

Alec could you provide some additional info. on your process and possibly your latest grain bill? Thanks!

Steve
 

Alec
Junior Member
Username: Pdxal

Post Number: 68
Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 71.38.151.175
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 06:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Steve,
First, I have to say that I use the brew in a bag method for mashing on my stove top.
Here is the latest recipe:
3 lbs 10oz domestic pilsner
2 lbs wheat malt
1 lbs 2oz honey malt 25L
9oz domestic crystal 40L
7oz domestic 2 row
8oz domestic crystal 120L
Ramp mash 105 degrees x20 minutes, then 140 degrees for 30 minutes, then 150 degrees for 60 minutes.
Cool to 120 degrees then pitch a handful of raw pilsner malt and a handful of raw 2 row malt and let sit uncovered for 30 minutes before covering surface with foil and using heating pad to hold covered pot at 120 degrees for 2 days.
Return to stove and heat to 170 degrees and hold 10 minutes before draining grain bag.
Boil 60 minutes with 1/2 oz. Hallertauer 4.35%AA.
Cool to 70 degrees and pitch 1 packet rehydrated US05 yeast.
Ferment 2 weeks at 65 degrees before bottling.
OG 1.051, FG 1.012

Very sour with malty overtones.
My plan is to repeat this and secondary with cabernet sauvignon soaked oak chips to achieve some degree of pseudo barrel taste to see if I can make it seem more 'aged' tasting.
Worked for me, decent sour beer in 4 weeks. YMMV.
Hope this helps.
Alec
 

Alec
Junior Member
Username: Pdxal

Post Number: 69
Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 71.38.151.175
Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 05:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

oops, I should have mentioned 4 gallon batch size, not 5.
 

Steve H.
Member
Username: Steveh

Post Number: 174
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 208.58.41.130
Posted on Monday, June 07, 2010 - 01:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Alec,

Thanks for the responses. I'm not sure what you mean by saving time with the recipe if I sour the run-off instead of the mash.

I plan on an 11 gal. batch with a batch sparge. If one sours the MLT that accounts for the 1st batch sparge. Is there then enough lacto. to also sour the 2nd round with batch sparging?

Again, is it possible to let the mash sit at 120-130 for too long? Thanks!

Steve
 

Alec
Junior Member
Username: Pdxal

Post Number: 70
Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 71.38.151.175
Posted on Monday, June 07, 2010 - 07:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Steve, I meant saving time if you sour the mash you don't have to sparge the run off with the raw malt added after sparging it previously.
I'm not sure about souring in the MLT as you mention. I only have experience with this method souring the mash rather than the MLT. If you are attempting to sour in the MLT then sparge I don't know how that would work. I'm not sure if the time in the MLT is enough "contact time" with the raw malt to infect it sufficiently.
As far as letting te mash sit at 120-130 for too long I'm not sure. I've gotten moderate to moderate-strong sourness with 48 hours time before sparging and boiling in my batches.
I hear people talk about sourness increasing 'exponentially' with time past 12 hours, but haven't seen that myself. I'm planning on trying to schedule to have 72 hours souring on my next batch to see the effect it might have.
Hope this helps. Perhaps others with a shortcut to sour beer might have more insight as well.
Alec
 

Tim C.
Member
Username: Timc

Post Number: 207
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 98.209.225.175
Posted on Friday, June 11, 2010 - 08:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was making my funky mash and placed it on a food warming tray. I checked the temp and it was 183 F. It smells a bit funky but I think it was pasturised.

I will re-pitch fresh raw malt and try agian. Do you have to keep it at 100 to 120 ?
 

Alec
Junior Member
Username: Pdxal

Post Number: 73
Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 71.38.151.175
Posted on Friday, June 11, 2010 - 10:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

100-130 is good. Hold for 1+ days and check the sourness and proceed when it is the desired level. I do 2 days or slightly more. I use a heating pad on high under a pot to keep it warm myself.
Good luck!
 

Tim C.
Member
Username: Timc

Post Number: 208
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 98.209.225.175
Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2010 - 02:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I mashed the soured malt with the rest of my grain, sparged and boiled. The wort hardly tasted sour at all. I saved a quart of wort at flame out. Has anyone experience in adding soured wort in the secondary? I was going to add a handfull of raw malt to it and allow to work a few weeks, pasturize and add to secondary.
 

Alec
Junior Member
Username: Pdxal

Post Number: 74
Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 71.38.151.175
Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2010 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Haven't done that myself, but I would guess that it will work. A version of mixing batches, on a limited scale.
The reson your wort didn't taste sour is probably that you didn't sour all of it. I sour the entire batch.
 

Michael
Senior Member
Username: Hoppop

Post Number: 1033
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 24.74.164.235
Posted on Monday, June 14, 2010 - 10:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Steve, a bit of a hijack, but this is sour beer related....obviously, you are not alone.

The quote from the link below related to the hops arms race is classic, IMO...I tend to agree and am doing more session and Belgian table brews lately....

>>>>For Mr. Gansberg, producing sour beers provided a chance to stand out from the multitude of craft brewers in the Pacific Northwest making bitter, hop-heavy India pale ales. He said he strives for balance, not just sourness.

I didnt sign on to the hops arms race, he said, and Im not going to go down the road of, My beer is more sour than yours. >>>

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/dining/02sour.html

(Message edited by hoppop on June 14, 2010)
 

Alec
Junior Member
Username: Pdxal

Post Number: 75
Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 71.38.151.175
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 04:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cascade makes some great sour beers in my neck of the woods. They are slated to open a new location, a "barrel house" that will be part aging warehouse and part brewpub in SE Portland.
Locally his beers sell for $18 per 750ml bottle, so he must be doing OK.
Portland has a sour beer festival, Puckerfest, coming up at Belmont Station July 9-15. This is always a great event if anyone is really into sour beers.
Let us know how things go, Tim.
 

Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 3964
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 66.245.102.201
Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 02:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sour mashes seem to be really unpredictable with the sour level. I've had good luck (and maybe it's really been luck?) throwing in about a half handful of pils malt in the fermentor. Let that go a couple of days before putting in the yeast. I've let that age as long a 6 months but think it could be good much sooner
 

Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob

Post Number: 518
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 192.77.86.2
Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 02:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm going to use the Papazian method on my next Guinness clone. Wifey isn't going to like it cuz I'm going to tie up the oven for ~ 2 days after my initial mash. Then I'll move the kettle(with foil covering the top of the mash bed) into the oven at ~ 120F with a few handfuls of some cracked malted barley.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7203
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 74.83.191.159
Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 03:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Has anybody mentioned Weyermann's Saurmalz. Since the lactic acid is eventually boiled, it is a great way of controlling the level of sourness. I use a bit in my stouts.
 

Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob

Post Number: 520
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 192.77.86.2
Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 05:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good point Dan. Conversely, one could probably add a dose of lactic acid to the finished product after titration of a given sample amount and scaling up to batch size but, what fun would that be?