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Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz

Post Number: 588
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 09:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://patdollard.com/2009/02/new-hampshire-fires-first-shot-of-civil-war-resolu tion-immediately-voids-several-federal-laws-threatens-counterstrike-against-brea ch-of-peace/

The Betrayal:

The New Hampshire state legislature took an unbelievably bold step Monday by introducing a resolution to declare certain actions by the federal government to completely totally void and warning that certain future acts will be viewed as a “breach of peace” with the states themselves that risks “nullifying the Constitution.”

This act by New Hampshire is a clear warning to the federal government that they could face being stripped of their power by the States (presumably through civil war!

The remarkable document outlines with perfect clarity, some basics long forgotten. For instance, it reminds Congress “That the Constitution of the United States, having delegated to Congress a power to punish treason, counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States, piracies, and felonies committed on the high seas, and offences against the law of nations, slavery, and no other crimes whatsoever;. . . . . therefore all acts of Congress which assume to create, define, or punish crimes, other than those so enumerated in the Constitution are altogether void, and of no force;”

Federal gun crime laws? Void. Federal drug crime laws? Void. The gazzillion other federal criminal laws that deal with anything other than the specific enumerated crimes? ALL VOID.

One would think that if any lawyer anywhere in the entire country was worth his salt, all federal criminal trials would have ended years ago. This seems to prove that most lawyers are dullards.

New Hampshire deals a complete death blow to the pending federal hate crimes legislation by pointing out “That, therefore, all acts of Congress of the United States which do abridge the freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, are not law, but are altogether void, and of no force; . . . . .”

Later in the Resolution, New Hampshire makes clear what the feds are now risking if they proceed further: The removal of all powers from the federal government by the States!

Quoting directly from the Resolution: “That any Act by the Congress of the United States, Executive Order of the President of the United States of America or Judicial Order by the Judicatories of the United States of America which assumes a power not delegated to the government of United States of America by the Constitution for the United States of America and which serves to diminish the liberty of the any of the several States or their citizens shall constitute a nullification of the Constitution for the United States of America by the government of the United States of America. Acts which would cause such a nullification include, but are not limited to:
I. Establishing martial law or a state of emergency within one of the States comprising the United States of America without the consent of the legislature of that State.

II. Requiring involuntary servitude, or governmental service other than a draft during a declared war, or pursuant to, or as an alternative to, incarceration after due process of law.

III. Requiring involuntary servitude or governmental service of persons under the age of 18 other than pursuant to, or as an alternative to, incarceration after due process of law.

IV. Surrendering any power delegated or not delegated to any corporation or foreign government.

V. Any act regarding religion; further limitations on freedom of political speech; or further limitations on freedom of the press.

VI. Further infringements on the right to keep and bear arms including prohibitions of type or quantity of arms or ammunition; and

That should any such act of Congress become law or Executive Order or Judicial Order be put into force, all powers previously delegated to the United States of America by the Constitution for the United States shall revert to the several States individually.”

I have reported on this blog for quite some time that we here in the United States are heading toward Civil War. Many of you told me I was a nut for thinking that.

The simple fact is that we are long overdue for another Rebellion in this nation and I heartily endorse the idea of having one again very soon; preferably starting THIS year!

We must stop our federal government dead in its tracks because it is out of control and very dangerous. If stopping them means attacking them and destroying them by force, then so be it.

The full New Hampshire resolution is printed below, or you can to the Government’s website and read it there.
 

Brewtun
Junior Member
Username: Brewtun1

Post Number: 46
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 06:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Resolutions don't mean squat.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2438
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, February 13, 2009 - 12:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

 

Ron Siddall
Advanced Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 745
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Friday, February 13, 2009 - 12:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sounds a lot like Atlas Shrugged.

Unfortunately NH is too cold for me.
 

Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz

Post Number: 590
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 14, 2009 - 12:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When there is only 1 state a resolution may mean squat.....now there are 20......
Cheers,Brewzz
 

Greg Brewer
Member
Username: Greg_r

Post Number: 206
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 14, 2009 - 12:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That picture cracks me up Bob
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2440
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, February 14, 2009 - 06:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Greg. I am glad someone actually gets it.
 

Tim Wi
Senior Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 1023
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 02:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Original resolution here: http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2009/HCR0006.html

Thanks for pointing this out. Enjoyable.

The photo, now THAT is a classic
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9963
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 03:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

First shot of a civil war--come on! This is stuff only libertarians and right wing talk show denizens can get excited about. I doubt the Supreme Court will even hear a test case.

I do agree that the photo is a hoot.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6536
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 03:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Libertarians remind me of abstenense ONLY sex education. It is totally inarguable in theory, but very frequently a disaster in practice.
 

Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz

Post Number: 595
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 10:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well,Texas is now in it...along with 21 other states.You guys really still think this is all B.S.???
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/BillLookup/History.aspx?LegSess=81R&Bill=HCR50

Cheers,Brewzz
 

Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz

Post Number: 596
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 10:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am very happy I live in Texas.............

Texians Reclaimed Their Rights

The right of those claiming status as Texian Nationals to reform their nation is a reserved right given by God the almighty creator. It now has been reinstated and there is no court in the world that has lawful jurisdiction to decide this political issue. The hard facts are that the constitutional republic of Texas Political Body assembled as the re-elected 10th Congress in September of 2005. Whereas, the people, replaced the elected treasonous 1845 10th Congress members who violated their Oaths of Office, abandoned their offices, and abdicated their responsibilities with dishonor by not convening the 10th congress legislative session, thereby placing the constitutional "Congress of the republic of Texas" into abeyance or dormancy.

After being brought forward in 2005 from the forced abeyance of 1845 by an unlawful Resolution falsely portrayed as a so-called treaty that never was, the Nation of Texas, with its Constitutional "Congress of the republic of Texas," is presently conducting business under God’s law and the organic 1836 Constitution “as amended in September 2007”. It has now entered into its 4th session as the republic of Texas so named the 13th elected Congress for the Years of our Lord 2008-2009.

The Texians Demand: Let us go in peace

We Texians, native-born and adoptive, simply want to reclaim our Texas heritage. With respect to Texas, the Corporatism United States has violated its own Constitution by not providing Texas with a republican form of government, and has unlawfully compelled the Texian People to participate in its fatally flawed wars, economics, social security, welfare, immigration programs, and its democracy (which was eschewed by the Founding Fathers). It has unlawfully hypothecated Texas land to THE STATE OF TEXAS, and parts of THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO, THE STATE OF COLORADO, THE STATE OF WYOMING, THE STATE OF KANSAS, and THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA.



The Texian people acting through their body politic, the organic republic of Texas is re-establishing its true and lawful standing as an independent sovereign nation. Peaceful and lawful recognition by the United States will allow Texas to become the republican nation where the main duty of the government is the protection of the Peoples' Rights, Freedom, and Property; where the government recognizes that the People are the Sovereigns, and the government the servants; where private personal Religion and Economics are areas that the government dare not enter; and where the People understand what the true role of government is, as well as understand the true nature of government.

The early Texian pioneers and settlers understood and appreciated the Promise of a Nation operating under a constitutional republican form of government, using only Gold and Silver as tender of payment of debts, embracing the common-law developed over the centuries to protect and secure the rights of man, providing man the ability to own land and property in allodium, guaranteeing that man will enjoy the fruits of his labor without being taxed for the right to earn a living, and providing food, shelter, and the pursuit of happiness for one's family. They saw an opportunity in Texas that wasn't available in the United States and headed for Texas. They were up against the harsh Texas land, an imperious government, and seemingly insurmountable odds taking on an Army thirty times their size at the Alamo, and then finally being victorious in battle and negotiations to win the war and the land, for the people forever.

That is what being a "Texian" means. If you are of like mind we invite you to join us. Our Nation is being reclaimed one living soul at a time. The time is now! We have all the documentation supporting Texas as a legitimate, lawful, sovereign and independent nation that has come out of abeyance to take its lawful place among the nations of this planet.



Written by republic of Texas Dist. #5 Senator Ed Brannum with much appreciated help from others. trep777@dctexas.net
 

brewer of beer
Junior Member
Username: Brewbeer22

Post Number: 53
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 12:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't know, seems like government as usual to me. Loud vocal minorities pushing positions that just aren't relevant to the majority of the people and society as a whole.
 

Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz

Post Number: 597
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 04:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

They work for us....not the other a way around.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9982
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 04:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The nation is undergoing its gravest crisis in 75 years, and some people are dithering about this kind of nonsense.

I'm almost at a loss for words.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2454
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 04:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, you know better than that. From all the numbers, it has yet to be as bad as the 70's under Carter.


 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9983
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 10:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, we haven't bottomed out yet. I wish it were otherwise, but I expect to see national unemployment in the 11-12 percent area by the summer, with some states in the high teens. Both business and personal bankruptcies will climb to levels unseen since the 1930s. Home foreclosures are already at a record. This is easily the worst economy in my lifetime (roughly since the end of World War II)
 

dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 1628
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 12:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The Greater Depression?
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 2163
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 01:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow Bill, you're really buying in to this, aren't you? Yes, unemployment is high, I'll give you that. But the worst economy in your lifetime? Real GDP is currently over 2X what it was during the Carter administration.

The money is out there, it's just not being spent right now. Back in the Carter days the money wasn't even there. All this is going to take is someone with some balls to go out and spend some money and the avalanche will follow. Back then no one had any money to spend to get the economy back moving. Big difference.
 

Robert
Member
Username: Okierat

Post Number: 216
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 01:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Brewzz, am I reading that correct? Texas wants Oklahoma? What will happen to the RRSO? You know Texans and Okies HATE each other.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6541
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 03:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We can get rid of Texas?
 

Kevin Kowalczyk
Intermediate Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer

Post Number: 457
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 04:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Forget the Alamo! Give it back to Mexico.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6542
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 05:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What have the Mexicans done to us to deserve that?
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2455
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 07:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For starters, they have completely de-valued the American unskilled labor force. But hey, they are just nice people who are trying to make a living.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6543
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 07:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, in turn, our drug laws have almost destroyed their government.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2456
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 08:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Whatever helps you sleep at night Dan...
 

Ron Siddall
Advanced Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 746
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 06:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan are you saying we should legalize coke and heroin in that post?
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6547
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 07:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ron, are you happy with the control we have over heroin and coke? Do you think that doubling the size of the prison system would help much? How about summarily executing users? It worked in Communist China. Should we "stay the course" in the War on Drugs?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10011
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 07:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

While there is disagreement about the specifics, currently there is about 75 percent public support for major government intervention in the economy. It strikes me that the small cadre of conservative opinion makers and their minority supporters in Congress either have an unprecedented ability to see the future in their crystal balls, or they are once again digging a hole so deep it will take them 20 years to climb out, much as happened to them in the 1960s.

(Message edited by BillPierce on February 25, 2009)
 

Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz

Post Number: 598
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 12:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Where did you get that 75% figure Bill?From what I'm seeing and hearing it's less that 50%.....
At least here in Texas...

Cheers,Brewzz

P.S. Though I don't smoke it anymore,I DO think we should probably legalize pot,and tax is the same way we do for alcohol.....
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 2164
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 01:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Same curiosity here Bill? Was it a poll of Democrat Congressmen that was supposed to represent the public?

Seriously. In my circle of friends and coworkers I get examples of all voting demographics - liberal, conservative, middle of the road, non-voters, etc, and NONE of them, not ONE, think the stimulus is a good idea.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2463
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 01:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The strongest argument I have heard so far from a person who supports the stimulus bill is the following retort: "Bush did it too"

(Message edited by brewdudebob on February 26, 2009)
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10013
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 03:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, I was trying to suggest there is extensive (more than two-to-one) support for major intervention in the economy. I'm not a big believer in instant polling, but a CBS poll immediately after Obama's speech Tuesday night on the economy found 80 percent support for his goals. I acknowledge there are significant doubts about some aspects of the stimulus bills, particularly those concerning housing, banking and the financial industry. However, not since 9/11 has there been such widespread support for government action about an issue in general. Those conservatives who stand against this tide are taking a considerable risk. As I said, either they will be seen as having incredible powers to see into the future, or they are all but ensuring their own irrelevance.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2464
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 04:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, If I asked you to believe the results of a Fox News poll after a Bush speech, what would your initial reaction be?

I believe you are deluding yourself with wishful thinking. The vast majority of people I meet and speak with regarding this issue feel we are throwing good money after bad, and we are going to make it much worse in the long-run. We are rewarding stupid people for bad behavior while honest hard working people foot the bill and get an extra $13.00 a week for their efforts. Makes you proud to be an American, don't it?
 

Connie
Senior Member
Username: Connie

Post Number: 1344
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 05:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

well said, Bob
 

davidwaite
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 1951
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 01:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There's the rub, Bill. While 80% of those who responded to the poll support the *goals* of Obama, (can we get some demographics of those respondants please?) those goals do not entirely reflect what is encompassed in the stimulus bill. I agree whole heartedly with what he had to say, but he's still got to deal with the old school wankers in congress, they are the ones with their hands in the tax payers pockets! Doesn't matter which side of the isle they sit on, they're all the same. It's easy to imagine that the eloquently speaking Obama is the one running this country, but we're fooling ourselves if we really think he is.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10015
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 07:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My point is not about the polling source or its wording or methodology, all of which are open to interpretation and criticism. I'm trying to point out that there is widespread support for intervention. In another poll, more than one-third of Americans believe there is a significant chance of entering into a depression (yes, the "D" word). The head of the International Monetary Fund has said the US, Europe and Japan may already be in depression but the measurement lags behind the reality so it is impossible to yet know with certainty.

Economists point to the nearly decade-long Japanese economic slump that began in 1997 and ended only in 2006. There are eerie parallels with the current US situation. The roots were in housing and credit, which spread to banking and the financial markets. Real GDP fell and then entered into a period of long stagnation. Government efforts to remedy the situation were mired in debate and finger-pointing about who might be unjustly rewarded for bad behavior. Consequently, the measures enacted to bail out the economy were largely too little and too late.

I believe we're at a historic point. If the president does not exercise leadership, and the Congress does not act decisively, the world economic ship that has been afloat for more than 60 years now could founder. If this occurs, there will be hell to pay, and who to blame will be seen as a parlor game on the Titanic. We have seen the enemy and he is us.

(Message edited by BillPierce on February 26, 2009)
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6548
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 08:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I predict that soon you will rarely hear the name "Bush" without hearing the name "Hoover."
 

Ron Siddall
Advanced Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 747
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 10:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, I simply asked the question and you automatically assume I want drug users killed or prisons filled - you are a hoot you know that?

I am actually changing my mind on drug use and feel that maybe it is time to legalize drug use, including steroids. Although with that freedom there needs to be a very strong personal accountability.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6549
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 10:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you Ron. I wanted to know how you would deal with the obviously failed "War on Drugs." You seem to be taking a pragmatic approach.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2465
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 11:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am also a conservative who feels the war on drugs is a joke. Will Obama be man enough to stop the nonsense?

 

dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 1636
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 02:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/12.08/goodnewa.html
 

Connie
Senior Member
Username: Connie

Post Number: 1345
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 03:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Hacker, you're just trying to upset Dan!!
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10016
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 01:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fred Thompson is a reasonably good actor and full of folksy wisdom, but his message is also full of half truths. The problem is that to some extent macroeconomics is like quantum physics in reverse: what applies to you and me is only partially true for the global economy. The one thing I do agree with Fred about is that we're in a very serious mess that will take decades to resolve.
 

davidwaite
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 1952
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 02:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If we could transport all the pessimists in this world to the moon by sundown this serious mess would be resolved by tomorrow!

 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 2165
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 03:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There is some serious truth to that David. I partially blame the Dems for the current recession. They were so desperate to get back in power they made sure that all we heard for the last two years leading up to the election was how bad the economy is and if we elect them they would save us. I wonder if people hadn't been hearing how rough we have it for the last two years they maybe wouldn't be so paranoid about spending money, because that's what it's all about. Nowhere near as many people would be losing jobs right now if the people with jobs were more willing to spend a little cash. But everyone is so freakin' paranoid about spending any money right now that the retail/auto/home markets are all taking huge hits.

The Dems and their campaigns along with their partners in the media pummeled us in to believing our economy was going to pot, and thanks to them now it is because everyone is afraid to spend any money.

I'm not denying there are other forces at play like the devalued dollar and trade deficits and numerous other things, but our perception of reality has a lot to do with it as well.

(Message edited by mikhu on February 27, 2009)
 

davidwaite
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 1953
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 03:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree, Mike. And while my post was partially intended to inject some humor into the conversation, the fact of the matter is much of what is occuring right now in the US and throughout the world is in effect psychosomatic. We humans love to second guess, which has actually had some benefit throughout our evolution. But it has it's pitfalls.
 

David Lewinnek
Intermediate Member
Username: Davelew

Post Number: 471
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 04:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike, if the economy was so fragile that a few Democrats could destroy just by running their mouths, then the Democrats are not the problem. The problem is that the economy was a house of cards that blew over with the first wind.

Our economic problems right now are not a partisan issue. The root cause is asset inflation causing a gross misallocation of resources. The asset bubbles sent signals to the market that we needed to divert resources from (for example) R&D, and instead develop new financial instruments and build more houses, because that's where the profits were. As a result, America has under-invested in the new technologies and productivity growth that have always driven our economy, and we are now seeing the effects of that underinvestment.

The string of asset bubbles (dotcom stocks, financials, housing) that has just burst started in the Clinton years, and continued through the Bush years. This is not a partisan issue, and blaming the other guys is not going to get us out of this mess. Understanding the root cause (as opposed to taking the intellectually lazy route of blaming Dems and foreigners) is the first key to solving the current problem.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10018
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 05:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It wasn't only Wall Street that bought into the boom. Tens (even hundreds) of millions of people looked at the value of their homes and the net worth of their 401k accounts, and decided they were amassing wealth. Egged on by banks, mortgage companies, and real estate and investment brokers, they bought into the bubble with their hearts, minds, wallets and credit cards. Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman has called it a "decade at Bernie's." In a sense it was a kind of mass hypnosis, and unfortunately it's going to take a lot more than positive attitude and wish-fulfillment to work our way out of the mess.

David L. is absolutely correct that this is way beyond political partisanship. Finger pointing at everyone else is total folly.

(Message edited by BillPierce on February 27, 2009)
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 2166
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 06:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well since I ain't as smart as you intelligent types, I see things in a much simpler light. All I know is what I've heard people say when asked what they are doing in this economy.

Simply put:
Do you have a fear of losing your job? No. What are you doing with your money? Hoarding it. Why? Because the economy is down.

WTF is that? That makes no sense whatsoever. If people aren't investing then the economy will NEVER recover, because despite what some Democrats tell us the government cannot spend our way out of a recession with our tax dollars. It's never worked and it won't work now. All I hope is the stimulus spending influences someone with some real investment skills to take the plunge.

I wasn't blaming the Democrats solely for this mess. I'm just saying their doom and gloom during the campaign season didn't help anyone other than getting them elected. Most of us here don't believe a thing a politician says, but unfortunately many people in this country do, and if their congressman/woman tells them they are hurting enough times they will start to believe it, even if their job is secure and they are making more than they were two years ago.

I do agree on the underinvestment in new tech. Investing in new tech is what used to make this country great, what made us a world leader. Now we just ask someone else to dream it up for us because we are too fat and lazy to do it ourselves.

FWIW I'm doing what I can despite the fact I might have to take a "voluntary" work layoff for a week or two in March. I spent $1200 on a new fridge last week (unfortunately it was out of necessity, but I still spent the money none-the-less). If everyone else who is currently gainfully employed would do something like that this recession would be over in a month. Waiting for the government to spend our money to bail us out is like bashing your head repeatedly in to a brick wall and expecting an outcome different than a concussion.
 

Kevin Kowalczyk
Intermediate Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer

Post Number: 461
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 06:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Waiting for the government to spend our money to bail us out is like bashing your head repeatedly in to a brick wall and expecting an outcome different than a concussion.

It feels good when you stop, though.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10020
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 07:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike, it's difficult to think about discretionary spending when jobs and future income are in jeopardy. That's why any economic stimulus package has to be multi-faceted, encouraging businesses to invest and create jobs, and putting money both directly and indirectly into the pockets of working people, as well as convincing them of a secure future. Right now, all of those are in short supply, requiring us collectively (through the government, private businesses and individually) to mortgage our future further in order to ensure (and insure and assure) it.
 

davidwaite
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 1954
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 07:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's obviously going to take more than a positive attitude, Bill, but a positive attitude is going to move us in the right direction much quicker than a negative attitude will. Isn't that what our President was attempting to get across in his speech a few nights ago?

No doubt it would surprise people to see how quickly things could turn around were the dialect the media pummels us with were to change. Perhaps that is hard for some folks to accept/understand? A good analogy is that you never hear a successful athlete talk about how he visualizes loosing a game. They are always focused on winning. Just like a few weeks ago when Santonio Holmes visualized that football hitting his gloves, grasping it, and pulling the ball in as his toes dug into the turf . . . TOUCHDOWN!!!
 

dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 1638
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 08:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If everyone else who is currently gainfully employed would do something like that this recession would be over in a month. Waiting for the government to spend our money to bail us out is like bashing your head repeatedly in to a brick wall and expecting an outcome different than a concussion.

I just bought $200 worth of brewing ingredients. Does that count for anything?
 

dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 1639
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 08:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not that it matters one iota to me, but something I find curious . . one of my radio stations carries Beck, Rush, and Hannity. I sort of have to listen to make sure all the satellite stuff works right.

Collectively, they are shouting gloom and doom to a greater degree than I have ever heard in my life.

Maybe you guys should tell them to chill on the negative harping since they are the ones affecting millions of feeble minds.
 

davidwaite
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 1955
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 09:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Precisely my point, hacker.
 

David Lewinnek
Intermediate Member
Username: Davelew

Post Number: 472
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 09:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike, you say that the government can't spend our tax dollars to get us out of the recession. I respectfully disagree.

We are in a situation where if only one person starts spending money, that person will go broke before the economy picks up. It is in no individual's self-interest to spend their way out of this recession. However, if people collectively start spending money, then the economy WILL pick up, and that will be in both the collective and individual self-interest. In game theory this type of problem is called the prisoner's dilemna. You can only get the best outcome from this sort of problem through collective action.

Fortunately, we have an organization in place to enable this sort of collective action. That organization is our government.

The theory behind the stimulus is that the government will borrow money and then spend enough to get the economy moving again. Once the economy is healthy again, government spending will go back to normal. It's expensive, but if the government doesn't do it the tax base will shrink by so much that the government would lose even more money than the trillion dollar stimulus.
 

Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz

Post Number: 599
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 10:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I just spent a rather large sum of money to put in a large raised bed garden in my yard....I'm diggin in for the long haul....

Brewzz
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 2167
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 11:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's a good call Brewzz. We've been talking about expanding from containers to a real garden, this might be a good year to do that. Some landscape timbers, topsoil, and fertilizer and we are all set. We can't plant in our ground as once it dries out in summer our ground is as hard as a clay pot.
 

dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 1640
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 11:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, I anticipate an up-tick in roadside produce stands in these parts.
 

Patrick C.
Advanced Member
Username: Patrickc

Post Number: 862
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 06:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

David, interesting that you bring up the prisoner's dilemna. In that context the "best move" for someone right now is to rat out the other prisoner- hoard all the cash you can, because you know the other guy is going to do the same.

I haven't really changed my spending habits at all, but I never bought a bunch of useless crap to begin with. I'm still socking as much as before in the 401k and the kids 529 accounts. Thankfully they are 10+ years away from college, and I'm probably 20+ years away from retiring.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2466
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 06:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Speaking of spending, I have been doing more than my fair share. Recently, I have been participating in my own personal GM bailout program. In the last 3 months I have spent:

Wife's Car

~$600.00 - New wheel bearings
~$300.00 - New Thermostat
~$550.00 - 4 new tires
~$2,900.00 - New Transmission.

And on My car

~$600.00 4 new tires
~$200.00 Brakes
~$180.00 Serpentine Belt

Right there, ~$5530.00 from the bank of Bob paid to Mr. Goodwrench. How many times do I gotta buy these vehicles? The good thing is our final payment on the wife's car is about to be sent, and mine is already paid off. So for the foreseeable future, we will not have a car payment.
 

dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 1641
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 12:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I can't say that I've changed my spending habits either. Fortunately, I've never carried much debt, own everything I have now, continue to squirrel away significant dollars every month and for the time being, have what I consider a fairly secure job, since I have many broadcast clients.

I plan on new counter tops for the kitchen this year, paving my driveway, building a deck and gazebo around the beer garden, rebuilding the sun porch and going to Orlando to spend untold dollars playing golf with Mickey.

My conscience is clear!
 

Ron Siddall
Advanced Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 748
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 02:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

- Madoff
- Stafford
- CEO's flying in jets asking for taxpayer handouts
- Trade Unions not understanding the reality of their situation
- Oil companies slowing down refinary capacity to keep gas prices higher

What will help fix this economy is some serious prison time for some folks and a beating for some others.

BTW, with my portfolio down some 40% and close to retirement, I ain't spending nothing I do not have to. Oh, except for that cruise in May.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 2168
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 03:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, just out of curiosity, what is the year, model, and mileage of your wife's car? Just curious what it is where the tranny would crap out already while you are still making payments?

Hack, one point of contention on Beck/Hannity/Rush/etc. The people who normally listen to them are going to be in a pretty crappy mood already because of Obama getting elected, I don't think they are bringing their listeners down any lower than they already were. However, the doom and gloom from the media and the politicians HAS to be affecting everyone else and their spending habits across the country.

Besides, according to our leftist friends the people who listen to those guys are just idiotic hillbilly rednecks who don't contribute anything valuable to society anyway.
 

dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 1643
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If I'm interpreting correctly what your you are saying, those people are in a funk and will continue to be in a funk until we throw another conservative republican into office, at which time the liberal democrats will be in a funk and stay in a funk until we throw one of their guys into office.

Well . . there you have it. A no win situation that will always have half of the country pissed off!

WE'RE DOOMED!



(Message edited by dhacker on February 28, 2009)
 

David Lewinnek
Intermediate Member
Username: Davelew

Post Number: 473
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 04:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Patrick, the best move in the Prisoner's Dilemna changes if you can enforce collective action (i.e. convince the other prisoner that you won't rat him out, and if he rats you out your friends will get revenge). In the case of the economy, hoarding money would make sense if there wasn't a bailout. With the bailout, and with the IRS's enforcement ability, the rational choice changes.

I'm spending my tax dollars on the bailout, and I know you're spending your tax dollars (because neither of us has a choice), so I expect the economy to improve, and I expect today's sale prices to be about the best we'll get. Therfore, it's rational to buy stuff today.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 2169
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 05:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's pretty much it Hack. I mean all we heard from the left for the last 8 years was "stolen election, Bush lied - people died, no war for oil, etc" and the left was pretty darn angry. I expect no less from the far right for the next 4 years.

Honestly, the fix would be to elect a true moderate, but I'll be shocked if that happens in our lifetimes with all the power the RNC and DNC have catering to their fringes.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10027
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 08:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike, I'm wondering whom you would consider a "true moderate." Both candidates last time were considered in the middle of their respective parties, especially McCain, who was a reluctant choice for some social conservatives.

David L., I generally agree with you, but I'm not sure about whether it is rational to buy stuff today. For example, for more than a year I've been considering buying a new computer; my current one would be very close to reaching puberty if it were alive. It's true that it was just about the highest-end machine on the market at the time I bought it; of course by now it's excruciatingly slow.

At any rate, I've been holding off for any number of reasons. For one, if my somewhat precipitous source of income were to disappear, I would very much need the cash. And secondly, there have been lots of incentives to think prices would decline. First it was the Thanksgiving Black Friday sales, then the inventory clearances of what people didn't buy during the holidays last year. Now I'm seeing store-closing, everything-must-go sales. I'm also wondering about auctions of high-end computers from, banks, brokerages and financial firms that are going belly-up. I suppose I'm playing a game of chicken with prices and the economy because it's both in my interest and my nature to do so.
 

Kevin Kowalczyk
Intermediate Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer

Post Number: 465
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 08:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Most banks, brokerages, and financial firms don't use high-end stuff. I know this from my own firm, and seeing the computers my friends in the business use. They tend to get really good servers, but the desktops are strictly middle-of-the-road, and get replaced every 3-5 years. So anything you get in an auction is most likely a couple of years old, and wasn't high end even when it was new.

I suppose some of the analysts at the big investment banks might have better systems, but still, it really doesn't take a ton of processing power to run stock screens, regression analysis, net present value calculations or monte carlo simulations. A company that does graphic rendering or video editing might be better if you want something high end, in my opinion.
 

Kevin Kowalczyk
Intermediate Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer

Post Number: 466
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 09:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Also, Bill, I'm wondering about your use of the word "precipitous" in describing the source of your income. You have mentioned that you sometimes teach English, and most of your posts are very well written, so I don't understand how a source of income could be described as "precipitous". I actually looked up the definition to see if there was a usage I wasn't familiar with:

1. very steep: precipitous cliffs
2. very quick and severe: a precipitous decline
3. rapid and unplanned; hasty: European governments urged the Americans not to make a precipitous decision
USAGE: The use of precipitous to mean hasty is thought by some people to be incorrect.

I don't understand the source being steep, quick or severe, or hasty. Did you mean "tenuous"?
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 2170
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 09:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, McCain in his career as a Senator (not the campaign McCain) might have been a good moderate. Obama has spent too much of his short time as President pushing his agenda and blaming all the bad stuff on Bush. He's not even remotely moderate, not yet anyway.

When I said that I was just referring to an imaginary candidate, one that won't cater to the fringes. I can only hope that one will emerge some day.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10030
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 09:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you, Kevin. Yes, "tenuous" is a better word choice. I suppose I meant "precipitous" in that my source of income could decline or end suddenly, as in definiton 2 above.
 

brewer of beer
Junior Member
Username: Brewbeer22

Post Number: 57
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 12:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The two party system we have now doesn't lend itself to nominating "moderates". McCain in the 2000 election is case in point. McCain clearly would have been a better president than Bush, and McCain was what the country wanted (and needed) in that election. However, extremist on the right saw to it that McCain was not nominated, and here we are.

The US is a country of centrists. When presidents are elected from the ends of the political spectrum, the natural tendency of the electorate is to pull the pendulum of political philosophy in the other direction. The last 8 years has seen the federal government dominated by the right, with a very conservative (in relative terms) president. When the pendulum has that far to swing to correct the extreme sideways lean, a "liberal" federal government is what we get. No surprises there.

That having been said, the vast centrist majority in this country has seen what the far right had to offer and has resoundingly rejected it. If government under the dems and Obama swings too far left, they will also be rejected in favor of pulling the pendulum back to the center.
 

dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 1645
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 01:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That having been said, the vast centrist majority in this country has seen what the far right had to offer and has resoundingly rejected it. If government under the dems and Obama swings too far left, they will also be rejected in favor of pulling the pendulum back to the center.

Oh . . so what you're saying is . .

WE'RE DOOMED!

Don't you know, all we have to do in this country is start spending money and everything will be okay again?

Oh, wait . . first, we've gotta get our gloom and doom media, who has been the root of this, to convince the rest of the world to spend money as well.

Need a car?

http://www.businessinsider.com/unsold-cars-around-the-world-2009-2
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 2171
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 02:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

BOB, you nailed it. 2000 McCain would have been great but the money holders in the GOP wanted W instead. Anyone would with a clue could see that McCain was the better choice then, but the big bosses didn't want him because he wouldn't follow their lead. Then in 2008 they reluctantly let him be the candidate but not until they convinced him to not be himself. It's sad really.

Hack, are you mocking me? ARE YOU MOCKING ME???? You best be careful, I'll start calling you Dan if you continue to act that way.
 

dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 1646
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 03:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hack, are you mocking me? ARE YOU MOCKING ME???? You best be careful, I'll start calling you Dan if you continue to act that way.

Nah . . I guess I was just thinking how vain it is to suppose that replacing a stale group of idiots with a fresh group of idiots in Washington would make any difference in the grand scheme.

Of course the media is always gonna try to make whichever group of idiots is currently in power look like bigger idiots . .

Though I'm absolutely certain the media doesn't need to offer their spin in order to accomplish that!
 

davidwaite
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 1959
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yet another reason not to live in the past and dwell on the negative:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=7017131&page=1

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