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Kevin Kowalczyk
Advanced Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer
Post Number: 761
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 98.212.1.126
| | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 04:36 am: | 
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It's that time of year again when the apple juice and apple cider is on sale big time at the local supermarket. (Buy one, get one free--basically $3.50 a gallon). I'm going to make some hard cider for the first time, and I'm wondering which to use.
I have done a search here on the brews and views and the consensus has been to get freshly pressed cider with the right blend of apples specific to making hard cider. Well, I'm in the big city, with no immediate plans to drive out to any orchards or cider houses, so it's either cider or juice from the local Jewel (or as the south siders say it, "Jewel's"). Which do I use, or do I blend them?
By the way, I checked the labels, they're all pasturized, but no preservatives. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 10762
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 10:52 am: |
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My opinion is that there is very little if any difference between generic "cider" and apple juice (both are the raw ingredient for the fermented beverage we are discussing). It's all a blend of whatever apples are available at a given time and place, and it will make adequate but not particularly interesting cider. You are correct that the best cider is made from a carefully selected blend of juice from multiple apple varieties, some of which are grown only for cider. As in winemaking, the variety of fruit is a major factor in the outcome. |
Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 1791
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.240.196.175
| | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 12:14 pm: |
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Kevin,
I've made passable hard cider from "grocery store" cider by adding some Granny Smith apple juice concentrate, maybe one or two 12 ounce cans of concentrate for 5 gallons of cider. I think it was the Seneca brand concentrate I used. My local grocery store doesn't sell it anymore, but, then, I haven't checked any of the other players in our area. The tartness of the Granny Smith juice adds some complexity. The sugar in the concentrate will kick the alcohol of the finished product up a notch, too. You could use Malic Acid.
You may want to add enough sugar to bring the OG up to 1.060 or thereabouts. The "raw juice" will likely be about 1.050, or maybe a tad lower. Correnty says 2.25 ounces of suagr will raise the gravity of 1 gallon of cider by 5 points. I use 1 cup per gallon, usually. I also use Demerara or Turbinado sugar or Succanat (evaporated cane juice), instead of plain white sugar.
You might want to add a little grape tannin, too. Maybe 1 teaspoon in 5 gallons of cider. (Paul Correnty recommends 1 tablespoon [3 teaspoons] of tannin in his 15 gallon recipe for New England style cider in his book: The Art of Cidermaking - highly recommended)
Bill is spot on about the right blend or use of cider apples making the best hard cider.
My LHBS contracts with a local orchard for a custom pressing of cider. I pick mine up on Saturday. Under laws about cider pasteurization, we have to buy the cider directly from a representative of the orchard to get untreated cider. This year, I'm getting 11 gallons of juice, for one batch of my "regular" cider, and one batch of Apple Butter Cyser.
Generally, a good blend for fermentation will be about 50 percent sweet apples, 30-40 percent acid apples, and 10-20 percent aromatic apples. Maybe even 5 pecent crab apples. (All from Correnty's book). The LHBS hasn't told me what will be in this year's juice yet.
I also use either White Labs or Wyeast cider yeast or Wyeast Sweet Mead yeast. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 10763
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 12:54 pm: |
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Paul, my brewing spreadsheet has a formula for calculating the effect of sugar additions. According to it, adding 1.73 oz. table sugar by weight (or 1.90 oz. corn sugar) will increase the gravity of 1 gallon from 1.050 to 1.055. It also indicates that 2.25 oz. table sugar will increase the gravity to 1.0565. I find the formula quite accurate for sugar additions in brewing; I can't see why it wouldn't be equally so for cider, wine or mead.
If you think about it, the extract potential of sucrose is 1.04621. Adding 2.25 oz. (0.1406 lb.) should increase the gravity by 1 * 0.1406 * 46.21 = 6.5 points.
(Message edited by BillPierce on October 08, 2009) |
Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 1792
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.240.196.175
| | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 01:18 pm: |
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Hmmm,
I wonder if Correnty meant 2.25 ounces by volume??? Upon re-reading, it's not clear. He does say farther down in the same paragraph, that to raise 1 gallon by 20 points (from 1.047 to 1.067) you'd need 9 ounces or "a rounded cup".
My spreadsheet says 2.25 ounces by weight will increase 1 gallon 6.3 points.
Like I said, I generally just use about 1 cup of sugar per gallon in my ciders.
My kitchen scale says 1 cup of sugar weighs 7.3 ounces. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 10764
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 01:29 pm: |
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I just measured a level cup of sugar to the best of my ability and weighed it on my lab balance. It was 199.9 grams (7.05 oz.) I can see why almost all of the texts recommend measuring sugar by weight. |
Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 1793
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.240.196.175
| | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 01:58 pm: |
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You're right, Bill. I t seems tha most European cooking recipe use weights not volumes for things like flour & sugar, but US recipes seems to use volumes
OK, I got out my lab scale from the brewery. I checked it with the calibration weights for my Christian Becker Chain-o-matic (yes, I DO have one. It's just for show, sitting on a table in the living room), and it's within 0.20 percent for all weights between 5 and 100 grams
But the digital scale only has a capacity of 100 grams, so I checked the weights of 1/3 cup and 1/4 cup granulated sugar, 66.85 grams and 49.95 grams respectively. Multiply up, I get 200.55 and 199.8 grams per cup, darn close to your measurement.
But, hey, this isn't rocket surgery, it's cidermaking  |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 10765
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 02:29 pm: |
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My wife has lots of European recipes. Almost all ingredients, dry and liquid, are listed by weight. A couple of years ago I bought one of those Ultra-55 digital scales that Skotrat recommended. I had planned to keep it where I store my grain and brewing stuff, but it ended up in the kitchen where we use it almost daily. It's a lot more convenient and accurate than the old spring-loaded kitchen scale we had, plus it has a capacity of 55 lbs. (25 kg). My lab balance is accurate to the nearest 0.025 gram (up to 2 kg), and the Ultra-55 to 2.0 grams, but that's more than close enough for my purposes.
(Message edited by BillPierce on October 08, 2009) |
Patrick C.
Advanced Member
Username: Patrickc
Post Number: 922
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 72.37.171.84
| | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 02:34 pm: |
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I've made several batches of cider using grocery store apple juice. As Paul mentions, add frozen concentrate to give it more apple flavor and complexity. Two cans of concentrate in 5 gallons works well for me- the result has a good flavor and is aound 5.5 - 6% ABV. I've gotten good results using Windsor and S04 yeasts. IMO you don't want to use a wine yeast or a highly attenuative beer yeast. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 10766
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 03:05 pm: |
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Ditto on the recommendation for a low attenuating yeast. Apple juice is highly fermentable and will finish dry (in some cases bone dry) almost no matter what you do. If you really are seeking sweetness you have three choices. You can crash cool during fermentation and keep the cider constantly refrigerated thereafter. You can add Splenda or artificial sweetener to the finished cider. Or you can incrementally feed the fermenting cider additional apple juice or concentrate until it exceeds the alcohol tolerance of the yeast.
I have not used Wyeast 4184 Sweet Mead for cider, but I found it to be very finicky for mead (prone to stuck fermentation unless a large starter was pitched along with additional nutrients). I had better luck with White Labs WLP 720 Sweet Mead/Wine yeast. |
Mike G.
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 352
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 64.68.165.2
| | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 05:28 pm: |
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Timely thread here, I am thinking about these very things.
I was planning on brewing a gallon of cider in the 1.060 range, soon. My only consideration was whether to make a lower-attenuated brew with S-04, or Windsor, or to make a dry, "apfelwein" syle brew, as popularized on another forum. The apfelwein recipe uses Montrachet yeast , grocery store apple juice, and corn sugar to achieve an OG of somewhere around 1.060, if I recall.
I have never brewed any sort of cider - I am leaning toward the former approach, with a low-attenuating yeast. Any thoughts on apfelwein vs. cider? |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 10767
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 05:42 pm: |
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"Lower attenuating" is a relative term, especially regarding cider. Even with a low attenuating strain you should expect a 1.060 cider to finish around 1.003-1.004. With a high attenuating strain it will finish around 0.997-0.998 -- or even lower. Apple juice is extremely fermentable.
(Message edited by BillPierce on October 08, 2009) |
Kevin Kowalczyk
Advanced Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer
Post Number: 762
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 209.252.39.59
| | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 05:56 pm: |
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What about adding some crystal or caramel malts to maintain some body and sweetness? Or even some traditional base malts mashed at a high temperature, say 158F? Would this make the cider taste too "beery"? I'm talking less than 10% malt and remainder apple juice. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 10769
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 10:59 pm: |
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Cruz's famous Apple Butter Cyser uses dark DME. I'd be inclined to use malt extract to contribute body and some residual sweetness.
I might also mention that Splenda is "cut" with maltodextrin so that an equal volume has the same sweetness as sugar. That would contribute to both sweetness and body.
(Message edited by BillPierce on October 08, 2009) |
Josh Johnson
Member
Username: Msujdog
Post Number: 156
Registered: 07-2003
Posted From: 99.48.200.192
| | Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 04:25 pm: |
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"If you really are seeking sweetness you have three choices."
Bill, you forgot about the fourth option: keeving. A little more complicated for the beginning cidermaker, but one that has produced incredible French & English ciders.
This is one time of year when all you hopheads on the West Coast ain't got nuttin' on us. I have at least 100 apple orchards within 30 miles of my house. |
dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker
Post Number: 1818
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 98.66.36.103
| | Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 07:51 pm: |
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I've made the simple Goof Proof Cider that Bales introduced and I've made a variation of the Apfelwein Mike G. refers to. Actually, I think I prefer the latter more. I substituted Orange Blossom Honey for the corn sugar, and used the Montrachet yeast. It is dry, but not so dry as to hurt. For those who prefer a little sweeter final product, just back sweeten with concentrate to taste and stop trying to play with yeast attenuation to do it. Oh, and I use just plan ol' Mott's or Tree Top or whatever gallon jugs of plain apple juice. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 10775
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 09:33 pm: |
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Very interesting, Josh. I had heard the term "keeving" but had an imperfect idea of what it involved. It's definitely an advanced technique, but some home cidermakers are quite sophisticated. It also may help to explain what is so truly exquisite about some of the French ciders and why they are so refined compared to "ordinary" hard cider. |
gregory gettman
Advanced Member
Username: Gregman
Post Number: 705
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 204.60.184.1
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 02:19 am: |
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Kevin you can steep crystal malts for a cider but the resulting flavor lacks depth. I prefer to use a couple pounds of brown sugar with a low attenuating ale yeast as some have suggested. |
Alec
New Member
Username: Pdxal
Post Number: 21
Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 71.214.67.229
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 08:52 pm: |
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What is keeving? Could someone describe it, at least in general terms, for me?
BTW- the west coast is tops in apples too...
75% of U.S. hops are grown in Washington state, and (as of 2006) 58% of apples produced in the United States were produced in Washington, 11% in New York, 8% in Michigan, 5% in Pennsylvania, 4% in California and 2% in Virginia. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 10777
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 10:40 pm: |
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Alec, there's a detailed discussion of keeving here: http://www.cider.org.uk/keeving.html
Basically, the process involves milling the apples and letting the pulp stand at a cool temperature (low 40s F) while it oxidizes and slightly ferments from naturally occurring wild yeasts. Sometimes calcium chloride is added to promote this process. During this time a brown cap rises to the top of the mass of pulp, and the natural pectins in the fruit react with tannins and sink to the bottom. The clear juice in the middle is carefully siphoned off, and sometimes additional yeast is pitched. This produces a somewhat sweet cider because the resulting juice has more nonfermentable sugars and fewer nutrients. |
Steve Ruch
Member
Username: Rookie
Post Number: 197
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 65.55.67.207
| | Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 05:33 pm: |
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When I ferment cider, which isn't all that often, I use store bought cider/juice as a base for cherry or pear cider. Not the depth that mixing various apple varieties gives but okay for not a lot of effort. |
Alec
New Member
Username: Pdxal
Post Number: 22
Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 71.214.67.229
| | Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 04:29 am: |
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Thanks for the information, Bill. |
Patrick C.
Advanced Member
Username: Patrickc
Post Number: 924
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 99.170.160.145
| | Posted on Thursday, October 15, 2009 - 01:57 am: |
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Just tapped my latest one tonight. I added two 12 oz cans of concentrate to 5 gallons of pastuerized juice. I didn't measure the OG, but it was probably around 1.060. I sprinkled on one pack of Windsor with no oxidation or nutrients, and it finished at 1.006. Dry, but not too dry, and a very good flavor(especially considering the effort that went into it). Maybe not in the same league as 'real' cider, but very good. Now to try and get several into the wife...
(Message edited by patrickc on October 15, 2009) |
dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker
Post Number: 1821
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 74.177.56.191
| | Posted on Thursday, October 15, 2009 - 02:23 am: |
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Now to try and get several into the wife...
Naughty boy.  |
danno
Advanced Member
Username: Danno
Post Number: 768
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 97.120.135.151
| | Posted on Thursday, October 15, 2009 - 03:58 am: |
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I use apples for cider so my experience with store bought juice is nil (not saying that store bought juice isn't apples but that they are different varieties than what I use).Generally, I add two pounds of clover honey to each 5 gallons as I like the complexity it adds. I also like my cider bone dry with high CO2 level. It's my cider champagne.
For the last 4 years, I have tried many mead, wine, cider and brewing yeasts. I have yet to see a difference in attenuation for any of these yeasts. The fermentability of apple juice is so high, I don't think the yeasts find a place to slow down (especially with the honey in there). Choosing yeast for attenuation with cider is a losing game in my book.
My favorite yeasts:
- Pastuer Red: ferments fruity and drops clear nicely.
- Montracet: Another good one.
- EC1118: Ferments fast and furious. A bit slow to clear but ferments well at cooler temperatures (50's).
- Wyeast 1056: Boring but good fermenter.
- Wyeast Cider yeast: Good but nothing special.
Overall, I like the red wine yeasts best. Dry works as well as liquid so I save the bucks.
(Message edited by danno on October 15, 2009) |
dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker
Post Number: 1822
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 74.177.56.191
| | Posted on Thursday, October 15, 2009 - 10:42 am: |
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Good info Danno. . and the yeast attenuation statement is dead on and confirms my findings as well. |
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