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Message |
    
Mike Vachow
Member
Username: Mike
Post Number: 165
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 75.8.91.67
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 03:40 am: | 
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Thought I kept my counterflow chiller pretty clean with thorough rinsing after brewing and occasional PBW soaks. Recently sent it through a series of PBW soaks and rinses that convinced me that I've been kidding myself and helped me understand why it's been so inefficient in its capacity as a heat exchanger.
I'd be interested in hearing from others who've found CFC cleaning methods that are convincingly effective.
Regards,
Mike
St. Louis |
Brian Miller
Junior Member
Username: Bj_mill
Post Number: 68
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 99.137.238.60
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 06:18 am: |
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Good question Mike. I recently had a similar experience and wondered about tossing it in the oven for a cleaning cycle. Too chicken to do that, I hooked it up to the hose to really blast it out and got way more gunk out than I expected. Followed that with recirculated Beer Line Cleaner and keeping fingers crossed.
Brian |
dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker
Post Number: 1846
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 98.66.33.82
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 12:16 pm: |
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Is it a copper inside of copper design, or copper inside garden hose?
If the former, I'm here to tell ya, hot Oxi-Clean is incredible at busting up gunk. If you can pump it, I'd run a high concentration solution through the wort tube for 30 minutes. If you don't have a pump, still fill the wort tube with a high concentration solution, add some more Oxi to a pot and fire it up to about 150 degrees until the Oxi finishes bubbling . . won't take long. Rinse thoroughly.
Cheap, easy, effective. |
Paul Muth
Intermediate Member
Username: Pjmuth
Post Number: 478
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 74.227.168.253
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 04:11 pm: |
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From the description of the cleaning problems, it sounds like a plate chiller. This type has many, many catch points inside and areas that have low flow & eddy currents. Just to give some prospective:
A copper or 'copper in copper' cfc generally has a smooth bore and is relative easy to keep clean. With these, dhatcher is right on the money in cleaning procedures and not really necessary every time. IMHO.
The plate chiller is a whole 'nother issue.
BTW: I would not put one in a self cleaning oven. Those things go to 900ºF or more during the cycle. |
Mike Vachow
Member
Username: Mike
Post Number: 166
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.232.231.166
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 05:47 pm: |
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My CFC is a copper in copper. Not sure if the inner tube is "rifled." I've been using PBW in recommended concentration, but I'll try a super-concentrate. At this point, I'm convinced that I need to add a super-concentrated Oxi-Clean or PBW soak as a necessary step immediately after every brewing session. Thank the gods the clean up part of brewing is so enjoyable!
Mike
St. Louis |
Brad Petit
Intermediate Member
Username: Voodoobrew
Post Number: 371
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 68.154.158.212
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 06:33 pm: |
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> Thank the gods the clean up part of brewing is so enjoyable!
Now there's a positive attitude! |
Joe Williams
Member
Username: Joewilliams
Post Number: 142
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 91.18.18.54
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 07:25 pm: |
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I've got a chill-zilla, I pump 150 degree PBW through it for 30 minutes or so in a recirculation type set up then rinse. I always pump boiling water through it before I use it to sterilize with heat, I've never had a problem.
I like to think it cleans out my pump housing too but I've heard from other brewers that the only way to really bust up the crud in a pump housing is to take it apart. So long as I pump boiling water through it before wort, I'm not too worried about infections. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 10889
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 07:46 pm: |
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My cleaning method for my CFC is similar to Joe's. I make sure to start recirculation of the cleaning solution no more than two hours after chilling. As for sanitizing, I circulate iodophor solution during the boil just prior to chilling. |
BrewLogue
New Member
Username: Brewlogue
Post Number: 15
Registered: 11-2008
Posted From: 24.205.84.9
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 09:25 pm: |
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What about beer stone? I have one of those convoluted CFCs from B3. I always recirculate boiling wort through it to sanitize, and after 35-40 batches, I'm sure there's all kinds of gunk in there. I'm thinking I'll just unbolt it from the rig and soak the whole thing in a solution of warm Lime-Away. Anybody ever do anything like this? Is it safe for copper and stainless, and if so, what's the proper concentration? |
Tim C.
Member
Username: Timc
Post Number: 179
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 98.209.225.175
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 01:20 am: |
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Beer stone is not as likely to attach itself to copper as it is to stainless steel or aluminum. Copper has different wetting charateristics and the stone will not stick as easily. I would not want to get too agressive with the copper cleaning as it may be damaged.
I have used sent free, powdered, automatic dishwasher detergent or PBW in near boiling water to recirculate through my pump and plate chiller. I allow it to then soak overnight. It appears to remove quite a bit of crud. I have taken the pump apart and these methods all seem to keep it gunk free. I do this every 4 to 6 batches, but back-flush well after each use.
(Message edited by timc on November 03, 2009) |
Paul Muth
Intermediate Member
Username: Pjmuth
Post Number: 479
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 72.154.55.190
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 03:31 am: |
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 Gosh.. I didn't even think about the convoluted 'copper in copper'. I've built my own stuff all along. Here is my "copper in copper" cfc:
Another view:
It's a smooth bore unit -
Oh well. |
Mike Mayer
Advanced Member
Username: Mmayer
Post Number: 857
Registered: 12-2002
Posted From: 68.76.84.39
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 11:04 pm: |
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You guys actually clean your CFC's????? I have been using mine for the last 5 years without doing anything more than a very quick rinse after using, and running 180F water through it prior to use the next time. Haven't had any problems that I am aware of. |
Tom Gardner
Senior Member
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1178
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 67.177.226.129
| | Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 12:12 am: |
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I backflush the plate chiller and then circulate hot PBW through the chiller for 30 minutes after every brew. I do that for my pump and hoses anyway, so it's not any more work. Then I sanitize with StarSan or in the oven. John Palmer has temperatures and time for baking the all-metal chillers to sterilize them. |
Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz
Post Number: 749
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 67.11.214.140
| | Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 12:45 am: |
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Paul,I'm jealous.My home made CFC only has 3 loops.It was just too hard to bend it around that many times.Plus,yours looks better than mine..
Cheerz,Brewzz |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 10940
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 01:25 am: |
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It's no mean feat to get a long piece of copper tubing threaded through another, then to bend both of them together in a neat coil. I had enough difficulty threading the inner tube through 30 ft. of garden hose in my now 13-year-old CF chiller. It still works well, but chilling is not much of an issue in my area where the tap water temperature is already 52 F and goes down into the upper 30s during the winter. |
Paul Muth
Intermediate Member
Username: Pjmuth
Post Number: 485
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.1.135.175
| | Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 07:42 pm: |
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Brewzz & Bill,
I go about it a little differently. (Yup - an old man set in his ways)
Check out a write up I did a few years ago when I was making some for my LHBS. (A good friend)
Counter Flow Chiller
I set it up to pull the inner copper through the outer.
I've made a few..
Paul |
Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz
Post Number: 750
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 67.11.214.140
| | Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 12:58 am: |
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I made mine out of 1" outer tubing,inserted 1/2" tubing and filled it with glass bead to keep it in the center.I then added caps with a hole in them,and bent it around a large form using a torch to help soften it.I made only 3 loops before I ran out of length.The form was about 20' in dia.It works ok,but I wish it was longer.I may just end up buying a Chillzilla,and leave it at that....
Cheers,Brewzz |
Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 1806
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.252.0.78
| | Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 01:24 pm: |
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Paul M,
What have you got against garden hose?
just curious...
I use garden hoses to supply my CFC w/o any problems. I do have brass QD's on the chiller and hoses so I don't have to thread everything together. |
Tom Gardner
Senior Member
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1179
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 67.177.226.129
| | Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 06:48 pm: |
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If it is all metal you can bake it to sanitize. |
Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 1807
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.252.0.78
| | Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 08:28 pm: |
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Tom,
On Paul's website (link above), he advocates using blue beer line in lieu of garden hose to connect the chiller to the water supply.
That's what I was asking about, not the chiller itself... |
Kevin Kowalczyk
Advanced Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer
Post Number: 823
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 209.252.39.59
| | Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 08:34 pm: |
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Paul E,
On Paul M's website (link above) , he also explains why he's against garden hose. He thinks you can pick up off flavors from it. He mentions taking a drink from a hose and it tasting nasty. |
Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 1808
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.252.0.78
| | Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 09:11 pm: |
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Kevin,
Hmmm, I missed that. I agree that a garden hose is usually bad for the brewing water itself. Depends on the kind of hose. But in the case of the water supply going to or from a CFC, that water never touches the wort.
I do use RV water supply hose with garden hose fittings to go from my faucet to the GAC filter I use for some of my brewing water. (the rest of the water is generally from the RO system at Wally World or Meier). |
Kevin Kowalczyk
Advanced Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer
Post Number: 825
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 209.252.39.59
| | Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 10:33 pm: |
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It's on the page about his immersion chillers. I wondered why as well, because whether you're using a CFC or an immersion chiller, as you said, your chilling water never touches the wort. Maybe he uses the same hoses for filling his HLT or kettle, so that's why he uses the beer line. |
Paul Muth
Intermediate Member
Username: Pjmuth
Post Number: 486
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.1.135.175
| | Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 01:34 am: |
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Paul E. & Kevin,
I came up with the issue about garden hoses about 6 or 7 years ago. RV hoses were hard to come by and I was building some equipment for Peter Roman. He was a student at RIT & had a very long run from the hose bib to his brew area. The bits and pieces I built and sent to him included a 100± foot run of hose for him to use in his brew setup. Garden hose just would not cut it, IMHO.
The pieces I sent were centered around cooling his wort, but also included delivery of his brewing water supply. I used 1/2" ID braid reinforced line and fabricated it using flare fittings on the hose, ball valves and his kettles. It was a great solution for water delivery for the whole process.
If the water was only being used for chilling, I agree that is is way over kill and it doesn't really matter. OTOH, for a setup to brew in a kitchen environment or when the hose bib is very close to your rig, using 3/8" beer line seems ideal.
I do hate garden hose though. You ever take a drink out of one on a really hot day while you were working your yard? It is downright nasty.
Anyway, that's what happened & why I keep saying garden hose use is really bad...
Paul
PS: I'm old and set in my ways. I feel entitled. I just hit 70 today. Now you all can call me old and senile. Hey, I entered this world before WWII. |
Dave Witt
Senior Member
Username: Davew
Post Number: 1361
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 68.57.245.38
| | Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 02:06 am: |
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Happy B-day, Paul! |
Tom Gardner
Senior Member
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1180
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 67.177.226.129
| | Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 04:25 am: |
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Happy 70! I am sure you're twice the brewer you were at 35!
Brewing something special? |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 10943
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 11:36 am: |
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Happy birthday indeed, Paul! I let 30, 40, 50 and 60 slip away without doing anything significant, but brewing a batch of beer at 70 would be a great idea (I've still got more than a few years before that milestone occurs). It might have to be a small batch indoors in the kitchen, as I was a January baby. However, I've promised myself that I'm going to ride my bicycle on my 80th birthday, no matter what the weather where I am at that time. It could be quite a challenge, although I recall one birthday when it was a freakish 60 degrees F. |
dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker
Post Number: 1860
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 98.66.33.82
| | Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 01:18 pm: |
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Happy new year, Paul!
Not old and senile . . old and WISE.
Just think if you had made a mead on your 20th. Imagine what you'd be opening today! |
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