Topics Topics Help/Instructions Help Edit Profile Profile Member List Register  
Search Last 1 | 3 | 7 Days Search Search Tree View Tree View  

Visit The Brewery's sponsor!
Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2003 * September 29, 2003 * Herms-Rims combination? < Previous Next >

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
  Start New Thread        

Author Message
 

Lennart Persson (216.165.226.121)
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 04:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oops, I added this as a post on another thread by mistake, but here it is....

I have a couple of ideas of upgrading my brewery. I think it would work great, but maybe I am missing something. I have not seen it done like this on any of the breweries I have seen on the web.

Instead of circulating beer through a rims chamber, I plan to build a bigger chamber for heating water with cheap large diameter galvanized pipe and cheapest water heater elements. I would then circulate the water with a pump through the outside pipe of a convoluted copper/copper chiller. With a second pump I can circulate the beer.

Fast response time due to small amount of water to heat and small amount of beer in the pipes compared to herms, and no risk of scorching as with rims. I would probably never let the water above 200 degrees.

It would add some costs with 2 pumps and a convoluted copper chiller, but there are more advantages to buying them. When it is time to cool the wort, I have one pump to circulate boiling beer through my chiller and back to the brew pot creating a vortex. After a couple of minutes the chiller would be sanitized and I start the cooling water. With my additional pump, I have the option of pumping water through ice.

I would cool the whole batch in the brewpot and the vortex will hopefully create a nice pile of coldbrake and hops closer to the middle of the brewpot. When I drain to fermenter I could leave a lot of solids behind. Now I use a immersion chiller and get a lot of stuff in the primary.

I think I will control heat with a probe on the return of wort to the mash tun, and monitor it right before the pump. I can use the same chiller/heater for 5 to 20 gallon batches in the future. For larger batches step mashing I would probably have to add hot water for faster step to the next temp level

Another way to achieve low watt density is to glue 4 heat blankets with a total of 3300W to my 10 gallon polarware brewpot and keep recirculating the wort just to get more even temp, clearer beer, small risk of scorching and relatively fast response time. The 3300W would be with only 10W/sq inch, and there a very low risk for scorching. 3000W should be plenty for an insulated 10 gallon mash tun.

Does anyone use a similar setup, using a chiller to heat or using heat blankets on half the mash tun?
 

Ed Jones (65.60.143.219)
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 12:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tony Verhulst did this with his system several years back. I've intended to do something similar, but honestly it hasn't been a high priority since I just direct fire my tun when the temps fall a little.

His page is here: http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/RIMS/rims.htm

Ed
 

TexanBrewer (63.174.45.1)
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 12:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I copied Tony. Yup, ripped him off and begged his forgiveness later.

Lennart, I've heard of a system similar to what you describe where the guy uses a counterflow chiller as a counterflow heater. Seems to me it'd be pretty efficient. Go for it and let us know how it turns out.

Scott
http://texanbrew.com
 

Ed Jones (65.60.143.219)
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 05:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There is also a Brew Rat who does this with a system named the Perfesser..or some such. Anyway, you might be able to search for his setup.

Ed
 

Lennart Persson (216.165.226.121)
Posted on Saturday, September 13, 2003 - 03:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for some good links, it gives me some confidence. The Perfesser is the closest by using a counterflow chiller as heat exchanger while mashing. I am more convinced that I am on the right track, I might need a larger heat chamber or tank for the water, but I will probably test with just a 2" pipe to keep the volume of water down.
 

Jerry Rice (12.92.3.222)
Posted on Saturday, September 13, 2003 - 09:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am not sure about the system you are trying to design, Galvanized pipe and such. Here is what I have created: I have a sanke keg used as a sparge vessel that I heat with two 6600 watt water heater elemnts wired at 220. I then installed 50 feet of coiled 1/2 in copper tubing with an input at the bottom of the keg and an exit at the top. I then have another sanke Keg used as a Mash tun. The mash tun has a Stainless steel screen and a valve on the bottom. The mash liquid runs thought the bottom of the mash, to a smaller pot (lauter grant similar to Zymco design), then pumped through the copper tubing in the sparge vessel and poured over the top of the mash with a "no splash thingy" (Zymco design). The temp of the wort is controlled by the temp of the sparge water as the wort flows through the copper coil (heat exchanger) and back over the grains. The wort never comes in direct contact with heating elements or flame.

This system has worked flawlessly for me for several 10 gallon all-grain batches. Hope this helps.

Jerry
 

Jerry Rice (12.92.3.222)
Posted on Saturday, September 13, 2003 - 09:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One more thing to note. When I mash out, I raise the temp of the sparge vessel tp 168. When the mash reaches this temp, I move a hose and rinse the grains with the sparge water already at mash temp. This volume of water is very stable easily controlled with a therostat.

Jerry
 

Belly Buster Bob (142.177.94.143)
Posted on Saturday, September 13, 2003 - 11:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jerry..that's HERMS to a TEE
 

Lennart Persson (216.165.226.121)
Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 03:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for the additional information Jerry. You have 2 x 6600w heaters! That's some decent heating capacity. My idea was sort of opposite, to heat a small amount of water instead of the whole HLT. I assume your sparge vessel is the same thing as I call Hot Liqour Tank? I would still keep my HLT but but control the mash via heat exchanger (chiller) heated by the water from a very small vessel compared to the HLT. I am sure 50 feet pipe and 2 x 6600 w works pretty well, but I am trying to do the same thing with 12 feet pipe in the heat exchanger and 1/4 of your heating capacity. I guess I just have to build it and see if it really works
 

Ed Doell (142.161.213.16)
Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 02:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I put a 20 foot coil of 3/8" copper tubing inside a 10 qt stainless pot and mounted a 3000watt/220V element in the pot controlled with a switch from an old stove. Tubing comes from the mash tun valve to my march pump then through the coil and back into the lid on the mash tun distributed through a "H" manifold mounted under the lid. Works great.
 

don price (65.32.41.226)
Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 03:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here's a write up on my HERMS-RIMS hybrid...

Good luck!

Don

MashMaster 6600 HERM/RIM SYSTEM
Also known as Don’s mad-scientist garage project

RIMS – Recirculating Infusion Mash System
HERMS – Heat Exchanging Recirculating Mash System

Basic setup - 3 converted kegs (15.5 gallon) and a control panel
v Hot liquor tank (HLT) = electric heat
v Mash-lauter tun (MLT) = temperature control by HERMS/RIMS
v Boil kettle = propane fired

The HERM system is built around the hot liquor tank:
v 5500 W @ 240V heating element
v 3/8" x 25' copper coil with bypass valve
v temperature sensing via type-J thermocouple
v PID-type temperature controller with process and setpoint temperature display
v Heating element is switched on/off via two high-powered solid-state relays
v Power supplied via dedicated 30 amp 240 V GFCI protected circuit with local and remote on/off switches

The RIM system is downstream of the HERMS coil;
v 1100 W @ 120V element heating
v 1.25-inch stainless steel flow-through heating chamber
v temperature sensing via type-J thermocouple
v PID-type temperature controller with process and setpoint temperature display
v Heating element is switched on/off via one high-powered solid-state relay
v Power supplied via dedicated 15 amp 120 V GFCI protected circuit with local and remote on/off switches

Other gadgets:
v Automatic shut-off valve on HLT potable water supply line to prevent overflowing of HLT
v Automatic pump control (on/off) for supplying sparge liquor during run-off (+/- 1” level in MLT)
v Sparge liquor transfer limited to 9 gallons by level switch in HLT
v Stirrer installed in HLT to improve heat transfer to HERM coil
v High level alarm for HLT, MLT, and boil kettle to indicate problems (not yet operational)
v Several pretty lights on control panel

Mash tun temperature control is accomplished by recirculating wort and adding heat via the HERMS heat exchanger coil (in hot liquor tank) and/or the RIMS heating chamber. The basic wort flow path is from the mash tun to the pump then through the HERMS coil and RIMS chamber and back to the mash tun. Eventually the recirculating wort and the mash bed reach the same temperature. The primary advantage to a recirculating system is the ability to perform a multiple temperature step mash and maintain the desired temperature as long as desired. The primary disadvantage is the cost of the additional equipment required to build the system.

RIMS directly heats the wort and there is some risk of scorching. Scorching can be minimized by using a lower “watt-density” (larger surface area heater elements and/or lower power). Temperature control is straightforward. The RIMS chamber outlet temperature is measured and the power input to the heating element is varied to maintain the desired mash temperature. Manual control is possible though automatic control via a thermostat or temperature controller is ideal.

HERM systems heat the wort indirectly and avoid scorching problems entirely. Temperature control is indirect but simple. The hot liquor tank (HLT) is typically maintained 5-10 degrees (F) above the target mash temperature and a “bypass” valve is used to keep the recirculating wort temperature from exceeding the target mash temperature. Denaturing of enzymes will occur (to some extent) if the wort in the HERMS coil exceeds the mash target temperature. Minimizing the temperature difference between the HLT and the mash tun limits this problem but results in longer temperature rise times. The HLT may be heated with propane or electric though electric is far easier to automate.

Most recirculating homebrew systems use either HERMS or RIMS. Very few, other than mine, use both.

Advantages of an electric hybrid HERM/RIM System
v No propane needed until boil kettle is fired up
v Automatic temperature control of HLT and MLT – just set it and forget it
v Two independent heating sources allows maximum flexibility
v Thermal mass of HLT used to maximize temperature rise of MLT during mash steps with little or no risk of scorching (HERMS mode)
v Precise automatic control of mash temperature with little or no risk of denaturing enzymes
v Ability to do multi-temperature step mash programs easily and accurately
v Neighbors take you much more seriously when you tell them that your other hobby involves planning for world domination

Disadvantages of an electric hybrid HERM/RIM System
v Cost
v Time required for design and construction of system
v Cost
v Increased number of electrical or mechanical devices that can fail
v Cost
v No excuse for producing dumpenbrau

Several brewing functions have been automated through the use of conductivity-based level control relays from Warrick. This includes an automatic shut-off valve on HLT potable water supply line and automatic pump control (on/off) for supplying sparge liquor to the MLT during run-off. Basically the relay is grounded (common) to the metal tank and two copper level probes (high and low) are inserted through the opening in the top of the tank. The relay is triggered when the water (or wort) contacts a level probe and completes the circuit. The relay is designed to control a small pump motor and “latches” between the high level and low level positions. The relay is wired to allow a choice between “pump up” and “pump down” modes of operation. The relays may also be used to signal high level and/or low level alarm conditions.

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.