Topics Topics Help/Instructions Help Edit Profile Profile Member List Register  
Search Last 1 | 3 | 7 Days Search Search Tree View Tree View  

Visit The Brewery's sponsor!
Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2004 * April 13, 2004 * Brutal Bitter clone - what do you think? < Previous Next >

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
  Start New Thread        

Author Message
 

Nic Templeton (24.17.21.95)
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 03:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, I had Rogue's Brutal Bitter for the first time a few nights ago - that's probably the best beer by Rogue I've ever had. Here's my atempt to "clone" it. What does everyone think?

Rogue's website:
http://www.rogue.com/brews.html#brutal

Brutal Bitter

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 11.00 Wort Size (Gal): 11.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 26.13
Anticipated OG: 1.061 Plato: 15.02
Anticipated SRM: 17.8
Anticipated IBU: 63.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 13.54 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.050 SG 12.32 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
61.2 16.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) Great Britain 1.038 4
19.1 5.00 lbs. CaraVienna France 1.035 20
19.1 5.00 lbs. CaraWheat France 1.035 40
0.5 0.13 lbs. Chocolate Malt America 1.029 350

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.00 oz. Centennial Whole 10.50 40.5 60 min.
2.00 oz. Crystal Whole 3.25 12.5 60 min.
2.00 oz. Crystal Whole 3.25 6.4 30 min.
3.00 oz. Crystal Whole 3.25 3.8 10 min.
3.00 oz. Crystal Whole 3.25 0.0 Dry Hop


Yeast
-----

Danstar Windsor
 

Michael (135.214.150.100)
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 12:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey, Nic. If you have access, ck. out Zymurgy a few issues back. They had clones for most Rouge, including this one I believe.

I'll try to remember to dig it up and post later. I do know they recommended a Brewtek (CL-50 pretty sure) strain to hit the mark.
 

Wykowski (209.222.26.27)
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 02:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Brutal is one of my favs,

the dreges of a Shakspeare stout is your best bet for pacman yeast
 

davidw (199.239.30.126)
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 02:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was under the impression that BB was hopped entirely with Crystal.
 

fob (199.184.119.58)
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 02:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Haven't tried BB, but the description provides lots of info. The only hop used is Crystal, so ditch the Centennial. It says it has massive hop aroma, but is not dry hopped. John Maier is a fan of the hopback, if you use a counter-flow chiller, use a hop back, if you use an immersion chiller, add a bunch of hops at flame-out. The description says an apparent attenuation of 76%, which Windor will fall short of. Windsor gives a lot of fruitiness too. Try to culture from a Shakespeare Stout, or maybe Wyeast 1272.
 

Beerboy (81.134.87.11)
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 02:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here goes, from Zymurgy:

5 US Gallons
11.5lb Hugh Baird 2-row pale malt
0.5lb 40º Crystal malt
0.5lb 15º Crystal malt

Mash at 150ºF for 60 inutes sparge with 175ºF water to collect 6.5 gallons of pre-boil wort.

Hops
All crystal hops at 5% A.A

1.5oz 90 mins
1.5oz 60 mins
1.5oz 15 mins
1.5oa knockout
1tsp Irish mos
Brewtek California Pub Ale (CL-50) or equivalent.

boil90 minutes
Cool to 60ºF and ferment at that temperature for one week. Secondary at 60ºF until fermentation is complete then package and condition.

Hope this helps recreate this awesome beer.
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 04:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Supposedly Rogue uses almost the entire US production of Crystal hops.
 

Denny Conn (140.211.82.4)
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 08:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I can guarantee ya that Pacman is nothing like CL-50.
 

Hophead (167.4.1.38)
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 08:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Perhaps he is using the Centennial to reduce the total hops in the kettle (and/or cost), as they are >3X the alpha acid, and are only for bittering. I'd stick with all crystal for your 1st clone attempt, since you now know that's all that's in the original.
 

Denny Conn (140.211.82.4)
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 09:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nic, did you check out Rob Hudson's recipe on Tastybrew? I've tasted it and it's darn close!
 

Nic Templeton (24.17.21.95)
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 05:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Guys-

I did see the recipe in Zymurgy, but their website says they use CaraVienna and CaraWheat but doesn't say a thing about Crystal malt - so I kinda dismissed it.

Wykowski: good suggestion on the yeast, but I thought I had read somewhere that said Rouge bottled with a strain other then Pacman, specifically so people couldn't clone it?

Hophead was right, I was using Cenntennial's in hopes to reduce the amount of hops in the kettle, but I think I agree with him, so I'll dump the Cenntennials. I miss-read the description, I thought it said that it was dry hoped. My mistake. Unfortunately I don't have a counterflow chiller, or hop back, so I'll just had to toss a bunch in after flame out.

Denny, when are you coming towards Seattle? What'll it cost me to get some cl-50? => Also, I didn't find the recipe on tastybrew.com

The only think I'm still not sure about is the yeast. I've got 1272 listed, because that was someone's suggestion. I've liked it in the past, so I'll probably use it.

Here's my updated recipe:

Brutal Bitter

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

07-0 India Pale Ale, India Pale Ale

Min OG: 1.050 Max OG: 1.075
Min IBU: 40 Max IBU: 60
Min Clr: 8 Max Clr: 14 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 11.00 Wort Size (Gal): 11.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 26.13
Anticipated OG: 1.061 Plato: 15.02
Anticipated SRM: 17.8
Anticipated IBU: 60.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 13.54 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.050 SG 12.32 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
61.2 16.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) Great Britain 1.038 4
19.1 5.00 lbs. CaraVienna France 1.035 20
19.1 5.00 lbs. CaraWheat France 1.035 40
0.5 0.13 lbs. Chocolate Malt America 1.029 350

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
7.00 oz. Crystal Whole 3.25 46.8 75 min.
3.00 oz. Crystal Whole 3.25 9.6 30 min.
3.00 oz. Crystal Whole 3.25 3.8 10 min.
3.00 oz. Crystal Whole 3.25 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1272 American Ale II


Water Profile
-------------

Profile:
Profile known for:

Calcium(Ca): 0.0 ppm
Magnesium(Mg): 0.0 ppm
Sodium(Na): 0.0 ppm
Sulfate(SO4): 0.0 ppm
Chloride(Cl): 0.0 ppm
biCarbonate(HCO3): 0.0 ppm

pH: 0.00


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs: 26.13
Water Qts: 30.04 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal: 7.51 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.15 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 155 Time: 60
Mash-out Rest Temp : 168 Time: 10
Sparge Temp : 170 Time: 45


Total Mash Volume Gal: 9.60 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.
 

Wykowski (209.222.26.27)
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 02:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

better make a little extra volume, 1 pound of hops is going to soak up ALOT of wort

1 pound of hops,,,awesome !!!
 

Pacman (68.51.78.225)
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 02:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Heya Nic...

I don't think i've ever seen it mentioned that Rogue bottles with a different strain than Pacman yeast. Go with what Wykowski said and get a bottle of stout and culture the yeast. If ya can't do that then I would suggest either 1056 or 1272. I used CL-50 back when i was messing with a St.Rogue Red clone and I agree with Denny, that's not it....
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 07:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nic, go back to Tastybrew and ask Rob for the recipe. IIRC, it's in one of the forums or journals, not the recipe database.

May be in Seattle late summer...I'll let ya know!
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 08:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nic, here's the orignal discussion..
http://tastybrew.com/forum/thread/202

And here's Rob Hudson's version, which I've tried..
http://www.tastybrew.com/journal/rob/0x1b2

BTW, the WY1056 version was WAY better than the Nottingham version.

Damn nice search function on the archives there...:)
 

Pacman (68.51.78.225)
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny, that's because Nottingham sucks... ;)
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 08:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pacman, I'd say it sucks for some beers...but there have been some that I've had good luck with Nottingham. But I'm not tryin' to tell you what to think...you've got that pretty well covered! And BTW, the 1056 version of that beer was absolutely great!
 

Pacman (68.51.78.225)
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 09:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I know, I know.. I need to lay off Nottingham.. others have had good luck with it... I have had one beer turn out good with it but it was a beer with some Rye in it and that covered up the flavor of the yeast... Yes, Nottingham is supposed to be neutral but I am pretty sure I can taste it... I don't care for it at all... There is no way at all I would use nottingham in any beer trying to clone Rogue. It just won't work... IMHO... :)
 

Wykowski (209.222.26.27)
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 09:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pacman, you are right Nottingham does Suck, I liked it in my extract days, but since, I've found It can ruin a good beer
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 09:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I find Nottingham leaves a kind of tart taste.
 

chumley (216.161.219.66)
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 10:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One of my best beers last summer was a 7% abv cream ale with Nottingham. That dry and tart goes good in a cream ale. It left my megaswill drinking friends with might sore heads.
 

Kevin Davis (64.136.26.235)
Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 12:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chumley,
How about the recipe for that 7% cream ale?
 

Nic Templeton (24.17.21.95)
Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 02:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for the links Denny. I know, I know - shoulda used the search on tastybrew, just haven't had anytime. That's what happens when you work tech support for a accounting company during tax time I suppose. =>

Anyways, I think I'll either give 1056, 1272, or 1332 - depending on what the LHBS has.

Thanks for all your help guys, I'll let you know how it turns out.
 

chumley (216.161.222.4)
Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 04:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kevin, I posted that recipe a couple of weeks ago:

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/20001/20966.html?1078960499

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.