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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2005 * Archive through March 25, 2005 * Can long mashes affect caramel? < Previous Next >

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q-ceps
Member
Username: Qceps

Post Number: 117
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 09:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the action of alpha and beta amylase in the saccharification part of the mash affect caramelized sugar from crystal malts, therefore making it (eventually) fermentable?

If the mash is long, should crystal malt be added later rather than at the very start?

This just occurred to me ... not really sure what caramel chemically is.
 

David Woods
Advanced Member
Username: Beericon

Post Number: 534
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 02:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

q-ceps,

From what I've read, once the sugars are burnt, then they have changed there molecular structure. In other words, the enzyme will not want them anymore.

I'll recheck the books, but that is what I can remember reading.

David
 

Brandon Dachel
Senior Member
Username: Brandon

Post Number: 1445
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 03:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

no
 

gregory gettman
Intermediate Member
Username: Gregman

Post Number: 401
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 07:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When overnight mashing I did notice a difference in frementability of wort. I don't know if this was from the break down of base malt sugers or crystal malt sugars. However I prefered to add my crystal malts in the morning before sparage and that seemed to give better results.

I don't know how long of a mash your talking about? But 12 hours was the most I have done. I hope that answers your question?
 

gregory gettman
Intermediate Member
Username: Gregman

Post Number: 402
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 07:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh and on a molecular level crystal malts have more long chain sugars. Both 3-4 chian sacarides, as well as dextrins which are less fermentable.

I do belive that a longer mash could eventually break them down into more fermentable smaller chain sugars.

Its always been my practice that mashing temps and time is more important to the resulting beer than the grain bill is. As long as there are enough enzymes in the grains chossen.
 

John McElver
Member
Username: Johnmc

Post Number: 180
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 10:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Crystal malts are already mashed, more or less, in the grain, then carmelized.
The free sugars in the crystal malt are what's carmelized and the products aren't substrates for the amylases.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 2782
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 02:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've always thought of caramel/crystal malts as being "precoverted" in the malting process, that is, almost all of the starches are already converted to sugars by the enzymes during the relatively long time they spend at warm temperatures prior to being kilned. As such, there are few if any starches left to be converted during mashing.

As for the sugars themselves, they are variously caramelized during kilning, the extent of which is controlled by the time and temperature of the process. Caramelized sugars are basically immune to enzyme activity. They tend to be more complex than the simple sugars that result from mashing and are less easily metabolized by the yeast. They contribute more body and a slight perceived sweetness to the beer, along with caramel flavors. The result is basically the same.

Therefore caramel/crystal malts could be added at any time during the mash, just as they can be steeped. But it's usually simpler just to add them at the beginning with the rest of the grist.
 

Roger Herpst
Junior Member
Username: Roger456

Post Number: 92
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 04:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is a question I've sort of asked & had answered here, but I'd like to hear more if possible. Sometimes I feel a little condecended to when I ask questions at a local shop, and I know you guys would NEVER do that , so here I go.

Several of the recipes from a LHBS indicate that the carapils should be added in the last 30min of a 90min mash. The brief brush off explanation I was given was that if added at the beginning, the effect would be the same as if it were not a dextrin malt, but a standard malt. I have not read that in any other book (ie Dave Miller, Dave Palmer).I understand that a longer mash generally yields a more fermentable wort (if the malts are less/under modified), but what gives in the dextrin malt scenario? Or, perhaps more to the point, why would they say this?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 2784
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 12:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In my considered opinion, Roger, this is pure brewing myth (I confess I have never heard it before). The effect of carapils malt will be the same no matter when it is added to the mash (assuming it it added early enough for conversion of the starches to occur).
 

Dan Listermann
Advanced Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 988
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 01:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

How would one go about testing this issue? Perhaps a test mash where 50% of the malt was crystal. It the fermentation went beyond 50% attenuation, you could at least say that some of the crystal fermented. You could compare this attenuation to a wort made from 100% crystal.

Dan Listermann
Listermann Mfg.,Co. www.listermann.com

"Siebel," S-I-E-B-E-L, "Siebel"
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 2785
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 01:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's more than that, Dan. The total sugars in the mash runoff can be measured rather easily by taking specific gravity readings. But the more relevant data concerns mash fermentability, that is, what can be metabolized by the yeast. It's a much more complex task to determine the fractions of the various sugars produced. Yes, wort attenuation is easily calculated, but that only measures the result rather than the cause.
 

Dan Listermann
Advanced Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 989
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 01:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am trying to develop a method of picking out the fermentability of crystal malts and then use that to see if mashing with pale malts converts some of the unfermentables to fermentable. First you would have to check the attenuation of a 100% crystal mash. Then, say, a 50% crystal mash and maybe a 0% crystal mash. There are a lot of variables to contend with so definitive answers might be difficult.

Dan Listermann
Listermann Mfg.,Co. www.listermann.com

"Siebel," S-I-E-B-E-L, "Siebel"
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 2786
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 01:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From what I know about Siebel recently, I wouldn't look for the answer there. Not that they don't strive to do a good job of brewing education, but they are a shadow of what they were 40 years ago. The regional breweries that were the backbone of their support have almost entirely disappeared. Microbreweries and brewpubs, along with advanced homebrewers, who contribute most of the students today, do not have the financial means to support brewing research. And the major brewers have their own internal research and training programs. Modern corporations are extremely competitive and globally focused; they are committed to the bottom line and keeping costs to an absolute minimum. To engage in a little politicizing, sadly, the model for today's economy is Wal-Mart.
 

Roger Herpst
Junior Member
Username: Roger456

Post Number: 94
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 05:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm. Thanks for the response to my question, not trying to hijack the thread.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 4382
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 06:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Roger, if they're telling you that, I'd be really suspicious of other advice from them.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Paul Erbe
Junior Member
Username: Perbe

Post Number: 74
Registered: 05-2001
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 06:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree, both of the shops I frequent have very little good advice. One focuses mostly on Hydroponics and the others owner is stuck somewhere between 1969 and 1975 when it comes to information. I find much more help here and other location on the internet.

Everything on the internet is true isn't it.
"I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring them the real facts, and beer."
-Abraham Lincoln