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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2005 * Archive through April 04, 2005 * Direct fired keg mashtuns < Previous Next >

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Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 260
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 04:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does anyone else do this?

reason is that I am getting more than my share of astrigency in beers so I am considering no longer doing this. I am thinking about a herms system or boiled water additions.

I tend to get some boil ups from the bottom and I ssupect this is attributing to the astrgency I sometimes get in some of my beers. I am thinking of ways to remove this. One is too step up with boiling water to 168 without fire.
 

Lennart Persson
Junior Member
Username: Lennart

Post Number: 72
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 04:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It is really difficult to get even temp in the whole mash on direct fired system without insulation. Before you go all the way to herms, you could try to circulate the wort with a pump, and direct fire as a first step. This in combination with addition of hot water could maket it easier to get more even mash temp. I have not done this myself, but when I do decoction mash I have to stir constantly to get even temp, and thet is only part of the mash.

/Lennart
 

Catt22
Junior Member
Username: Catt22

Post Number: 44
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 05:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Andrew,

I use a direct fired mash tun with a pump to circulate the wort continuously during the mash as L.P. mentions above. I first attempted to do the mash without circulating the wort; only stirring while heating. This did not work very well at all. Temps were all over the place and nearly impossible to control. Then I tried circulating manually. This worked well, but was far too much effort. With the pump, I can easily maintain the mash temps I want and it is easy to ramp up the temps when desired. This setup works very well for me.
 

robert rulmyr
Advanced Member
Username: Wacobob

Post Number: 530
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 11:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ditto Catt22. I do have a FB in the MT. No astringency, good beer!
 

Belly Buster Bob
Senior Member
Username: Canman

Post Number: 2271
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 01:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

if you're firing just to get up to 168 mashout, just cancell mashout. I brewed for years fly sparging with 175 deg water right from 154 mash temp. mashout is highly over rated
Bellybuster Bob
www.bellybuster.netfirms.com
 

Tom Gardner
Advanced Member
Username: Tom

Post Number: 593
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 04:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Astringency is more likely from high pH and low gravity runnings.
 

Dan Mourglea
Advanced Member
Username: Cataclysmbrewer

Post Number: 504
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 05:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I use a direct fired mash tun and haven't had any problems. Generally I heat the water before adding the grain. I then use the burner for steps and/or mashout (although most of my beers are made with single infusion). I use a fairly low btu burner and heat gradually so as not to overshoot my desired temps. I always do mashouts though, they are probably overrated but it did increase my eff. by a couple pts.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 1035
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 05:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Try as I might, I have never been able to convince myself that a mash out has ever helped my efficiency in a measurable way.

Dan Listermann
Listermann Mfg.,Co. www.listermann.com

 

Midwest Brewer
Intermediate Member
Username: Midwestbrewer

Post Number: 306
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 06:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why would you do a mashout for extract?
- "What this calls for is a really futile and stupid move on somebody's part...and we're just the guys to do it."
 

Brandon Dachel
Senior Member
Username: Brandon

Post Number: 1461
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 07:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> Astringency is more likely from high pH and low
> gravity runnings.

Agreed. Next time you brew try increasing your grain bill by 10-15% but collect the same amount of wort as you normally do. After 4 years of all grain brewing I still occasionally get a little carried away with running off too much...tannin ciry :-(

(edit) I used a direct fire mash tun for 3.75 years and the astringency was always from oversparging.

(Message edited by brandon on April 03, 2005)
 

Terry Neudorf
Junior Member
Username: Terry

Post Number: 60
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 09:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I use a direct fired mash tun. I used to try stepped mashes but found I was either burning the mash under my SS false bottom or it taking forever to achieve the desired temps. I now only do single infusion mashes and don't bother heating to mash out temps (I always batch sparge anyway). If my temp drops a little during the mash I will add a little heat very slowly though cause I don't like the burning. Works for me. I've never had the atringency problem myself.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 1036
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 09:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ba Dump Bump! MB.

Dan
Listermann Mfg.,Co. www.listermann.com

 

Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 261
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 12:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks guys.

I was oversparging the usual 1.050 beers, but I was mashing higher and did not really notice it until I started dropping my mash temps for lighter beers. I was getting tired of high final beers that required tons of hops for balance. Then I tried under sparging with low mash temps as well lately and I do add lactic acid to it, but it was still present. I only sparge with 6g (10g batch) and it still comes through. Mostly what I have been doing is stirring like crazy and using as little heat as possible to go from 140->152, and from 150->165. Pretty much the only thing that works well is just doing 1.070 beers or 1.050 beers with higher finals, but I am getting rather tired of those. 4 1.070 beers in one sitting and I get the evil eye the next morning from the SO. The strongly hopped IPAs and porters do fine with this system becuase I mash them at 155F and they have much residual sugars, its the kolschs and the belgians and lagers that suffer. Those with little body and no hops to really hide behind.

The last two beers I did not stir as much, a pils and maibock, sparged only 6g&8g, and they are both strongly astrigent, since they are lagers I will just age them a few months (or 6), fine them, before drinking and they will be fine. I hope.

I will try all the ideas. I think I will bump the mash up by 20%, heat the water to 155F and then add the grain with no heat, recic with a pump, insulate and let stand for 90 minutes, and not mash out. Sparge with 175F water, 6g (and put 3.5g in the boiler). I will do a Kolsch and see how this works.

If I batch sparge, you drain the whole batch and then add another load of water, right? If I use say 6.0g with 22#, I then add 170F 6g of water again and let set for 15mins and drain that too? Sounds like too much water and oversparging. I think I will fly sparge becuase I am more used to it for now, but I want some other options.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 1037
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 01:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Andrew, consider doing a simple single infusion mash. Blend 170 degree water with your grist and use cold water to stablize at 150 for 90 minutes. Skip the mash out. Adding heat will drive you crazy and not really make better beer.

Dan Listermann
Listermann Mfg.,Co. www.listermann.com

 

Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 263
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 04:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, with the bottom thickness of the converted keg, if I heat to 170F, it stays at 170F even with the grain added later. The heat from the kettle bottom will come up later on and raise the temps to just as fast the cool grain will remove it. Lately I just heat it to 145F without stirring and keep the heat on low and add the grain & stir so it will hit 150F as is [I used to aim for 150F but those beers were too thick]. Remove at 148F and place on wood insulator bottom and wrap in 3 layers of bubble insulation and one level of building insulation (v cut about 40 times and duct taped), add use a wooden lid wrapped in alum foil and cover all this with a old blanket. It will rise a few degrees from the start temp during the 60 minutes.

Skipping mash out and just using another pound of grain sounds fine with me. This will remove a half hour from my brew time, or I can just mash longer for 90 minutes instead of the 60.