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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2006 * Archive through January 20, 2006 * Long lag time < Previous Next >

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brett matthews
Junior Member
Username: Brettj

Post Number: 28
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 220.235.228.218
Posted on Monday, January 09, 2006 - 06:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just posted this attached to Teds post, once again sorry Ted. I'll keep it short this time.
Brewed a German Pils with Wyeast Danish 2206 on Friday afternoon. Now Monday arvo and beer has gone from 1052 to 1050. Yeast pitched at 12oC(55oF??), starter at similar temp. Airlock loath to bubble over, now have raise temp up a few degrees to see if that kicks it off. Will this affect the quality of the beer??
 

Tim W
Member
Username: Timw

Post Number: 206
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 56.0.143.24
Posted on Monday, January 09, 2006 - 01:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you have an oxygen stone I would aireate it at this time. Any foam bubbles congregating on top.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 4341
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
Posted on Monday, January 09, 2006 - 01:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

How large was your batch size and starter size, and did you aerate the wort?
 

ELK
Senior Member
Username: Elkski

Post Number: 1298
Registered: 01-2003
Posted From: 67.177.25.240
Posted on Monday, January 09, 2006 - 03:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

how poorly did you sleep with a sick child beer?
I think starters and getting that O2 system was worth every penny for me...Now I always sleep good seeing bubbles in the airlock by bedtime.
 

brett matthews
Junior Member
Username: Brettj

Post Number: 29
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 220.235.228.218
Posted on Monday, January 09, 2006 - 08:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I slept OK ELK, but I paced the hallways the next day after seeing no action. The batch size is 40 litres approx./10 gallons and I used a 5 litre/1 gallon starter that was very healthy. I don't have an aeration stone but the wort was well aerated. I've never had aeration problems before so this one has me baffled.
There is some action this morning so we'll wait and see......
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 5325
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Monday, January 09, 2006 - 08:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Minor nit..WY2206 is Bavarian. WY2042 is Danish.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 4356
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
Posted on Monday, January 09, 2006 - 09:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From what you have said, I'd expect a lag time in the 18-24 hour range. With a little more patience I think you'll be all right. Lagers benefit greatly from high pitching rates and lots of O2.
 

Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1313
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.141.10
Posted on Monday, January 09, 2006 - 10:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Brett, what size smack pack did you use? Did you pitch it directly into a one gallon 1.040 starter? Did the starter finish or was it at peak activity when you pitched it into the main wort?
 

brett matthews
Junior Member
Username: Brettj

Post Number: 31
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 220.235.228.218
Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 08:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ken, I used the large smack pack, 100 billion cells? and the 1 gallon starter would have been around 1040, I have standard starter measurements which give me an OG of around 1040-1044. The starter was peaking when it was pitched and had been going for about 3 days prior at around 13-14C. The ferment has now kicked off after I raised the temp to 14-15c and I have now progressively dropped it down aiming at 10C. Sorry Denny, your right, I had a guess!
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 4365
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 12:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Stepping up a Wyeast 125 ml smack pack directly to a 1 gallon starter is somewhat stressful on the yeast and not recommended, especially for a lager strain. This probably resulted in less than optimal yeast health and is the likely reason for the long lag time you reported.
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 2848
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 62.20.8.114
Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 01:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I see no reason why an XL pack (100 billion) to a gallon should as such be any problem. If you look at population growth, rather than dilution ratios, this is only ~x3 growth which should be no problem.

Given that I don't have a clue, if I had to speculate I'd think that it's maybe a combination of low glycogen levels that may in turn lead to long lag and slow oxygen utilisation as well.

On growth resumption, glycogen is used up as a kickstart. If you don't allow the starter to finish, and pitch at high growth, I am a little doubtful how much reaccumulation of glycogen that has taken place. If then, next, you pitch this into the main batch, requiring more adjustments that potentially drains the glycogen pools more. This is at least a remotely possibly idea that may or may not explain this.

In particular when the yeast is coming from storage, I would guess there is a good point in not pitching at krausen, and actually letting it finish, so that glycogen are accumulated. To my understanding a cell rich in glycogen are also quicker in utilizing oxygen during the next repitching.

Ontop of this, oxygen is expected to be more important in low temperature fermentations too. It is well known that the low temperature performance of the cell is strongly correlated to the membrane lipid composition, which in turn is strongly correlated on the oxygen supply.

My idea of "aeration", is to aerate, but also, make sure the yeast has enough power to assimilate it. This is where glycogen should help.

Just some speculations fwiw.

/Fredrik
 

Pascal Desbiens
New Member
Username: Aumaitrebrasseur

Post Number: 8
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 66.130.39.3
Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 03:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From my own opinion (and from my own experiences), i think that there's no problem neither. In fact, i use one vial (i use Whitelabs yeast) and pitch it in a 10 liters starter at a gravity of 1.030 to pitch it 48 hours later in a 100 liters batch. Never seen any problems and i can add that all my fermentations always take between 48 and 72 hours to complete!

I even have a small lab at home in which i can verify if the beer is contaminated and at 1000X under the microscope, i'm always free of contaminations. I even re-use all my strains 4 to 5 times without anything to be seen under the microscope.

Well, it works for me though...
 

Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1316
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.141.10
Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 10:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think I'm spoiled by the strong fermentations that you get from slurry-pitching. I don't know why, but lager starters made from Smack Packs don't compare. They start slower, never reach a comparable peak vigor, and take longer to complete. This doesn't mean the beer is damaged though!

I don't have a LOT of evidence to support this, but it's what I've seen. The only "problem" a slurry-pitch does show is a slow start if the slurry is old. But even with that it will still reach a vigorous peak and finish in a timely manner.

Brett, I hope you pitch a pint from the bottom of your present fermentation, into your next 10 gallon batch.

Ken
 

Pascal Desbiens
New Member
Username: Aumaitrebrasseur

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 66.130.39.3
Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 02:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oups...

I didn't see that it was for a lager... :-( Forget about what i said then! I think i'll go hide somewhere where nobody can see me...

Sorry!

I should verify my posts before posting them!
 

brett matthews
Junior Member
Username: Brettj

Post Number: 33
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 220.235.228.218
Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 06:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Think I will Ken. The other half is going away to London for 10 days in early Feb so I think I'll have some time out in 'Mansland' and brew another. Might try a Marzen this time, Danish OK for this style???
 

brett matthews
Junior Member
Username: Brettj

Post Number: 34
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 220.235.228.218
Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 06:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just had another thought. If I brew another lager I might run out of beer because of the turn around time. I'll brew something that is ready sooner next brewday so is it possible to decant a pint or so of the Danish yeast slurry into a sanitised bottle, cap it and store it in the fridge until I'm ready to attack a lager again? Anyone done this?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 4384
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 01:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Your slurry will keep refrigerated for at least a few weeks, brett. Keep it covered with beer (any beer), and take it out on the morning of your brew day and wake it up with a little fresh starter wort.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 1736
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 141.232.1.1
Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 01:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

brett,
Don't cap it!!!!! I did this once and ended up with a yeast explosion all over my wall when I went to uncap it.

-Doug
 

Paul Erbe
Intermediate Member
Username: Perbe

Post Number: 385
Registered: 05-2001
Posted From: 12.27.22.67
Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 02:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Use a mason jar with a clean new lid. I leave these loose for about a day before I tighten it up. I have used yeast months after storing this way.
 

Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1317
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.141.10
Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 02:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Something weird about harvesting a pint of yeast is that even though the fermentation was done and the yeast seemingly spent, when you first put the jar in the fridge it "wakes up" over the next few days and produces bubbles. Yeah, it can make a mess.

Once it settles down though, it leaves its own little layer of beer on top.
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 2851
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 62.20.8.114
Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 03:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In theory there may be a several explanations, but I suspect the major one is probably that even though the wort has no more fermentables, yeast can metabolise it's glycogen reserves and produce CO2.

Just to toy around with the idea. A yeast cake may be around 100g dry mass, which might be say 20g glycogen. If that's all fermented you could get more than one gallon of CO2.

I think in particular on O2 exposure, yeast may initiate sterol synthesis and use the glycogen and stored pools of ergosterol precursors like lanosterol to make ergosterol.

lanosterol is as long as yeast can build without oxygen, so during anerobic growth lanosterol is pooled. And quickly turned into ergosterol with the few finishing steps requiring O2.

/Fredrik

(Message edited by fredrik on January 11, 2006)
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 2852
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 62.20.8.114
Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 03:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Actually the first step is squalene, lanosterol is the next step in the synthesis chain that pools, and then there is episterol and some other ones.

/Fredrik
 

brett matthews
Junior Member
Username: Brettj

Post Number: 35
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 220.235.228.218
Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 07:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Great tip off Doug, I would have paid anything to see that because it's usually me providing the entertainment! What if it was capped with an air lock until any activity subsided and then sealed? And Paul, what is a mason jar? We only just got radio down here ;)
 

Astro
Member
Username: Astro

Post Number: 132
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 68.225.57.63
Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 07:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mason jar:
mason