| Author |
Message |
    
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 2994
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 62.20.8.114
| | Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 10:21 am: | 
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So far, except for the 2-3 first batches of beer I made, I've always pitched a good amount of farily well prepared yeast, and had fast ferments.
Yesterday I pitched WY1214 and on purpose, I didn't make a starter (I just used the XL pack), moreover the pack swelled slowly, and I didn't give it time to get going! wohoo  Now I can't wait to see how this turns out. I expect to see minimum 24 hours lag, maybe more, and a pretty lame ferment. I'm going to just led it ride, and see how it turns out moreover I am curious to see how the flavour turns out.
I consider the yeast handling in this brew to be pretty much opposite to what I usually do, and I am curious to see how it turns out, just as a datapoint of the opposite side of things.
/Fredrik |
Joakim Ruud
Member
Username: Joques
Post Number: 237
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 85.166.13.72
| | Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 10:34 am: |
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I predict that due to a fluke this will be the best beer you have ever brewed, and you will go crazy trying to figure out why |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 2995
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 62.20.8.114
| | Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 11:03 am: |
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Actually, if it turns out good, I already have some speculations why. Thus the reason behind the test
Some of my fast fermenters, have been in a certain sense - too clean of esters, yet something there that shouldn't be there.
What I expect, is more complexity (not so "clean") but I am also curious wether the other background notes I've had are gone or not.
/Fredrik |
Joakim Ruud
Member
Username: Joques
Post Number: 238
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 85.166.13.72
| | Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 11:45 am: |
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I'm very impressed that you take the time to perform these experiments. For my own part I feel I barely have the time to brew beer that I know I like, spending a day brewing for the sake of an experiment is sadly out of the question for me. I haven't even split a wort into two different yeasts yet, though I keep promising myself that I will
I am very curious about your results! |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 2996
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 62.20.8.114
| | Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 12:11 pm: |
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Most of the time, i've got enough control so that even the "bad experiments" on full batches, are not so bad that they aren't drinkable. They experiments where I know the odds are against me, I make just 1 gallon experiments.
But even so, I am not afraid to waste a batch if I can learn something. This is half the fun anyway
If I don't see any activity pass 36 hours, I am obviously interfering to not get the wort too badly infected.
But apart from that, I don't fear any stuck ferments either. There is no doubt to me they are curable. I have decided to interfere as little as possible with this one.
/Fredrik |
Joakim Ruud
Member
Username: Joques
Post Number: 239
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 85.166.13.72
| | Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 01:36 pm: |
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It's a good thing that you are so curious, that means the rest of us get a free ride from your experiments  |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 2997
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 62.20.8.114
| | Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 02:21 pm: |
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Hehe... well I've learnt alot on here too from other peoples experiences too, so it equilibrates.
But what is more important to me, I often learn much more from coming up with a question, than I do finding the answer Those who see only the answer but not the question doesn't enjoy full benefit ;-)
/Fredrik |
Pete Mazurowski
Intermediate Member
Username: Pete_maz
Post Number: 255
Registered: 07-2003
Posted From: 12.173.222.115
| | Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 05:18 pm: |
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I didn't make a starter (I just used the XL pack), moreover the pack swelled slowly, and I didn't give it time to get going!
I fully expect Bill Pierce to show up on your doorstep within the hour. |
Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny
Post Number: 5555
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
| | Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 05:37 pm: |
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1214 usually throw heavy isoamyl acetate esters. What you'ge got there is a good chance to test Clayton Cone's theory of ester production vs. cell growth. By underpitching, you've set up conditions that favor yeast growth and therefore, according to the theory, should reduce ester production. Since 1214 is normally heavy on esters, I'd think that if you don't get heavy esters, you've confirmed what Dr. Cone was saying.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 5005
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.239.69
| | Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 05:38 pm: |
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I'm glad Fredrik is Fredrik and I'm me. I couldn't bear to place the beer at risk, but Fredrik is willing to sacrifice for the sake of science. And it's true that he just may get away with it. |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 2999
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.200
| | Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 06:12 pm: |
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I'll be sure to report back what I find when it's done.
For the record, the relative pitching rate is guesstimated to no more than 0.3 million/ml/P, so it's not too awfully low really (but low according to my normal standards, which is what I compare with). Also, considering the way I did it, I consider the aeration well below my normal procedures. I didn't aerate the wort more than I usually do either. And since the yeast was slow initially, I think it was low on glycogen, and probably had somewhat suboptimal pre-pitch oxygen uptake.
I noticed a great smell (in my taste) in the 1214 pack when I openend it, so I very much look forward to the outcome.
I also used a lower oxygen headspace inthe fermentor than I usually do.
About the esters I'll see about what I get. I don't consider that explanation of Dr.Cone to be near the the last word on that topic. I think what he says, does have some relevance, but it's far from end of the story.
I've seen several papers debunk that growth vs ester hypothesis at least as the general, or main rule. There are also some fuzziness involved there.
And I have had very low ester levels in all my others beers. I think/hope this one will come out with more complexity.
One question I have is, if this turns out to be true, is there a downside to this except for maybe a risk, in the sense that it is more a balancing act that normally.
/Fredrik |
Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny
Post Number: 5557
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
| | Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 06:16 pm: |
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"I think what he says, does have some relevance, but it's far from end of the story. "...I absolutely agree. That's why I'll be curious to hear your results.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 3000
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.200
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 05:06 am: |
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To my slight dissapointment the lag time was only 20 hours, not too bad ;) I guess because I put the yeast in some glucose during brew day (but nothing happnend whatsoever) - this probably bought me at least 8 hours lag. But it makese sense anyway. I had prepared for far worse.
But it's still a fact that the pitching rate is about 1/3 of what I would normally go for, and the aeration was suboptimal too.
Anyway, now at the 30 hour mark it's bubbling away at about 24 bpm.
The interesting part will to see the profile. I hope to see a slower than normal finish.
/Fredrik
(Message edited by fredrik on April 04, 2006) |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 5016
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.239.69
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 12:38 pm: |
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I agree that feeding the yeast some glucose on the morning of your brew day reduced the lag time. I recommend doing this if you are absolutely unable to make a starter. |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 3012
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.200
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 08:51 pm: |
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Peak activity occured at ~48h mark with low peak value, I hint a mild deacceleration consistent with the low peak.
An interesting general observation. This is the 1214 yeast, which has the pretty typical belgian aroma. During the accelerated growth the aroma out of the airlock was some rough harsch notes (not specifically "belgian") and with a (dominating) hop aroma.
Now when the peak is passed, there is now a pretty pronounced typical carachteristic belgian aroma + still hop aroma - this was not detectable earlier, but the hop aroma has declined a bit.
This simple observation is to be compared to theory, which says that alot of (not all) esters are formed later rather than early, while the majority of fuesels and acetic acid are formed early. I actually never formally noted the smell vs time before. Perhaps I should make that this a habit. It's really east to smell the airlock. It sure doesn't directly correlate with the final beer aroma, but it does correlate with the process and gives a hint of what happens when.
Anyone else sniff the airlock regulary and note the pattern?
/Fredrik |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 4090
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 10:05 pm: |
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I miss the good old days, when bubble counter graphs were posted. When science ruled the land. Sniffing the airlock seems so common and pedestrian. |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 3016
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.200
| | Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 05:49 am: |
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Ok... now I'm in the right thread...
It's declining alot... and now the airlock arom is excellently *heavy* on the belgian aromas, I think maybe with a hint of diacetyl as well. I am tempted to chill this down a little bit now, I do not want all the good stuff to go away!
So far it looks good. I can't want to sample this. If it tastes as good as it smells now, it's going to be good. I'll probably give it until tonight or tomorrow, then I'm going to cool even more for maybe a week or a few days of sedimentation and clearing.
/Fredrik |
Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead
Post Number: 2168
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
| | Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 11:10 pm: |
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DC, I have always found that yeast growth actually promotes MORE ester production (from my experiences)? You have awoken the bears and made them very angry...
I do not sniff airlocks. Well, OK, maybe, but I don't inhale... |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 3018
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.200
| | Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 06:21 am: |
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Ok, it's pretty much done, now I will probably wait to next week before I bottle. I will aim at clearing in primary then go right to bottles. I have not taken a reading yet, but I have no real reasons to suspect any problem. The maltotriose depletion might be at the low end, but that is expected anyway. The graph looks good. I haven't yet updated my software so this is a reconstructed old days graphs fom manual bubble readings. Not as accurate, but good enough for a picture of the profile. The apparent drop during the deacceleration are possibly due to a transition from maltose to maltotriose. The basic occurrence of that jerk complies to a ballpark with the expected maltotriose level.
/Fredrik |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 4093
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 71.210.56.219
| | Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 02:48 pm: |
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That's better. |
Don Lund
Junior Member
Username: Donlund
Post Number: 67
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
| | Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 03:40 pm: |
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Fredrik - Interesting stuff!
An option to counting bubbles is to rig up a blow-off tube, then fill a glass with water, invert the glass in a pan of water, hold the end of the blow-off tube under the glass, and time how long it takes for CO2 to displace all the water from the glass. Knowing the volume of the glass, you can directly determine CO2 flow rate in ounces per hour, and sniffing the glassful of gas is less perverted-looking than sniffing an airlock... |
Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny
Post Number: 5577
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
| | Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 04:48 pm: |
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HH, that's a common contention. All I can tell ya is that there are those far smarter than I who disagree with you. Personally, I find the opposite of what you do. By pitching less than a full slurry, I get cleaner beers. That's about as far as I've qualified it so far.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead
Post Number: 2169
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
| | Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 05:06 pm: |
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Interesting.
I agree with not using the full slurry as well, I like the flavors associated with allowing the yeast growth...
Nice graph. I was afraid the bubble meter had lost a battle with bugs bunny... (inside joke) |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 3019
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.200
| | Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 05:31 pm: |
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Don, Actually Ken pimped me up with a nice mass flow meter that works perfect! I just haven't had the time to finish the software project yet. Meanwhile some manual readings does yield some basic useful info.
While I obviously don't have the answers atm, I can tell as much with high confidence that the ester vs growth thing is more complex than some of the simplistic explanations indicate. There are some valid pieces of logic there, but it's more to it. For one thing, the oxygen factor have
a huge impact on esters.
/Fredrik |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 5061
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.239.69
| | Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 05:42 pm: |
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Say, where is Ken lately? Does he feel better on the "green board" under the wing of Brewer Tom? 
(Message edited by BillPierce on April 07, 2006) |
THM
New Member
Username: Thm
Post Number: 5
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 68.54.12.128
| | Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 07:39 pm: |
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"The basic occurrence of that jerk complies to a ballpark with the expected maltotriose level."
Hey! I wasn't even at the ballpark! |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 3022
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.200
| | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 07:57 am: |
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I haven't see Ken around here lately either, I've no idea what he's up to. I've been been to green board.
I only visit this forum and I occasionaly post to the hbd list, then I'm at some swedish language forums and that's it.
/Fredrik |
Darel Matthews
Junior Member
Username: Darel
Post Number: 27
Registered: 07-2003
Posted From: 71.230.93.51
| | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 12:01 pm: |
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I've been reading "Brew Like a Monk" and there are quite a few contentions that underpitching stresses the yeast and forces them to throw esters. I will be watching this thread closely to see how it comes out! |
Guy C
Intermediate Member
Username: Ipaguy
Post Number: 423
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 24.6.136.251
| | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 05:51 pm: |
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I see ambient temp. in the graph never strayed above 20C/68F, but what about the wort temps. during peak fermentation? I'd think actual wort temperature would be a factor worthy of consideration in the final flavor profile of the beer. WY1214/WLP500 can churn out significant banana esters at certain, most often higher, fermentation temps. |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 3024
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.200
| | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 06:23 pm: |
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Darel, I have not read that book, but does it contain any chemical analysis for actual belgian beers to find what specific levels of flavour compounds it contains?
As far as I understand, and in compliance with most papers I have seen, the formation of acetate esters like iso-amyl acetate(banana), phenyl-ethyl acetate (sweet honey/rosey), ethyl-acetate(nail-polish) are determined by a combination of
1) the formation of the corresponding fuesel. So in general, up regulation of hte corresponding fuesel during the growth phase, should increase it's ester.
The details of this part, mainly relate to amino acid metabolism.
2) Upregulation of the relevant alcohol acyl transferase enzyme will increase esters. Things that are pretty much known to *repress* upregulation of this enzyme, are free UFA's in the wort/beer, and dissolved oxygen.
I've seen research papers where late aeration, effectively delayed / strongly repressed the acetate esters.
What upregulates it is harder, but possibly something related to fatty acid or steroid metabolism.
This factor(2) probably relates mainly to fatty cid metabolism and possibly some forms of cellular stress imposed by certain compounds. Sterol *precursors* are not outruled here as similarly structured compounds existing in nature has been suggested to upregulate some acetate-ester pathways. There seems to be some links, although not entirely clear, between various stress factors and upregulation of some esters.
I am sure the pitching rate, aeration, and also HOW you prepare the yeast, temperaturs etc are all factors that matter. But it remains to understand the details better.
Many ethyl-esters OTOH are as it seems a different story. The are NOT sensitive to aeration and UFAs in the same way as acetate esters. In this group you have the apple ester for example. So if you want to increase the esters in this group, other tricks are maybe required.
/Fredrik |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 3025
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.200
| | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 06:33 pm: |
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I did not have a internal probe, but considerations of thermal exchange predict that the peak internal temp was probably around ~ 21C / 70F.
During peak heat generation the ambient temp was lowered to 16-17C.
Now I WANT esters. Too little esters can be as bad as too much. Usually I get low ester levels (and low complexity). Even at temps higher than this. To me it's not a matter of getting rid of it, it's more a matter of getting just a bout the right level of complexity.
/Fredrik |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 5068
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.239.69
| | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 06:36 pm: |
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Fredrik, Brew Like a Monk is not a scientific text, but it offers more information and fascinating insights into Belgian brewing and beers (excluding lambic and sour beers} than anything else yet published. In general, I consider it the best brewing book since Designing Great Beers, but it might not be strictly what you are looking for. It's written for serious Belgian beer lovers and homebrewers rather than scientists. |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 3026
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.200
| | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 08:05 pm: |
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I see, thanks Bill.
I just thought that you never know since monks have been reported to do alot of "scientific" and philosophical contemplations throughout history Which is completely understandable - how else would you waste your time, stuck in a monestary? I'd do the same if I was stuck in a monestary.
/Fredrik |
Bierview
Member
Username: Bierview
Post Number: 183
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 67.83.205.96
| | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 11:02 pm: |
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Fredrick,
It a mystery to me sometimes. The most pronounced off flavour that I have experienced is a burnt flavour in beers that I have stored for a number of years. No evidence of infection just this funky burnt taste.
BV |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 3027
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.200
| | Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 12:29 am: |
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I'm not sure if this is what you sense, but mercaptans are reported to appear in both beer and wines. The range from burnt match, sulphury to garlic.
I have sensed the garlic, almost similar to burnt rubber once in a old fridge slurry.
Some sulphur compounds have lower tresholds, and they can sometimes transform to those with lower treshold during storage.
A common reaction desribed for wine is DMS that exists in the young wine below the treshold (ie no problem) this can reduce to metyl mercaptan(burnt rubber) via interactions with other redox pairs in the beer/wine. These reactions are probably not easy to control so the only safe cure is to prevent excessive sulphur production. I've seen wine papers that though the exact mechanism is unclear, excessive mercaptan levels often correlate with excessive H2S release during fermentation. Many things, including the strain, and nutritional status of wort influence H2S production.
So if this is it, my guess is that you've had DMS or other precursors in the beer (though below the treshold) and these have during aging transformed into nasty things which much lower flavour treshold.
/Fredrik |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 3028
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.200
| | Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 12:37 am: |
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So my point was that yes I think this doesn't have to be an "infection" at all. It could be just aging and an unfortunate transformations of compounds already in your beer. I guess excessive aging more than anything else may reveal difference in production. My beers don't last very long until I finish them, and I suspect these flaws take quite some time to develop.
/Fredrik |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 3031
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.200
| | Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 06:08 pm: |
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Ok, I couldn't wait, so I bottled and sampled today even though theh yeast isn't fully sedimented yet. (I'll just let it clear on the bottles.)
For sure there was no low attenuation or performance issues due to my lower pitching rate, in fact the beer turned out *way* too thin as compared to the target...
OG 1.056 and now FG 1.006
And I found the problem, I have two thermometers.. one simple model, and one better. So far the simple one has worked, but I just checked it not and it reads several degC too high. So this is what caused an overly fermentable wort and thus a very poor mouthfeel. Well, at least it was a simple cause, so no big deal. Also the fermentability as such wasn't really the main point of the test, it was flavour.
It's not the body I wanted, but the good news is that the other flavours are very good, although the next time I will reduce the pitching rate or the aeration even more. I would have wanted even more of this stuff. No doubt there is margin here to do so.
Judging from bottling, probably the best belgian I've made so far except for the ridiciously low and embarrasing body. Clean well balanced bitterness, no harsh notes at all. Now I just hope that the good aroma doesn't go away during maturation I know this happened before with the forbidden fruit strain.
The belgian flavours are there, pretty much similar to the leffe signature, but almost no diacetyl at this point, and the phenolics are there but I want more for the next time!
Also, some of the background notes that I felt in some of my "cleaner" beers are nonexistent in this brew. So except for the accident with the thermometer, this experiment was very successful and strengtens some of the theories I've had.
I have now a datapoint that there does seem to be decent margins for tweaking the flavour without having major performance issues.
/Fredrik |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 3032
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.200
| | Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 09:10 pm: |
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Actually the foam stability is somewhat suboptimal. Not bad (it is acceptable) but not what it could be. I suspect it may be related the to my temp problem as well.
It has the typical fluffy "dry" foam kind of texture that is common in many beers, rather than the glossy type of wet foam which I prefer (which I've had in my porters).
I suspect it'll take a few weeks until it's 100% cleared, which will be interesting to see. It obviously has some semi-bready yeast flavours in it still. But I think this will all go away in a few weeks along with the yeast haze.
/Fredrik |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 3033
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.200
| | Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 10:00 pm: |
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Talking about garlic... I cleaned out yeast stuff from the fridge today of old crap and found yet another slurry flask with a *very* pronounced garlic or rubbery like aroma. It was a US-56 slurry. It was a "plain slurry" just taken from the fermentor, ie including hop residues and you name it.
/Fredrik |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 3065
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.200
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 08:44 am: |
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This yeast still hasn't settled and it still has yeast haze and a slight flavour thereof, but I sampled some still last night, and while I have to say that this beer is my best belgian so far it still has two flaws...
1) Wrong foam texture, and suboptimal foam stability.
I think this is part due to my thermometer problem and the mash scheduele. The beer does leave a belgian lace, but it's the frothy kind of foam rather than the chunky kind. I think this is perhaps due to the low wort viscosity and perhaps the too low rest temps.
It does look that bad, and it's decent. But I know it can get better. I am going to experiment with a short/hot mash scheduele for my next brew.
2) Too thin (1.006) - same reason as above, mash problems.
The hop flavours and clean bitterness and flavour balance is one of my best beers so far.
I just can NOT find anything at all in this beer indicating to me that the pitching rate or aeration was near insufficient.
I changed many things here, reduce pitching rate, reduced preparation/pre aeration, and reduce air headspace in the fermentor.
In fact, as an extended experiment, the next time I will reduce the pitching rate even more! I want to pinpoint the limit where things go downhill.
Actually one slight off-flavour dissapeared in this batch - a slight kind of acidic/winey background thing. I have long suspected a link between this and excessive metabolism of oxygen.
I will continue to challange this hypothesis in the upcoming brews.
/Fredrik |
Brews and Views Archive 2006 
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