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Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny
Post Number: 6406
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 63.114.138.2
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 05:27 pm: | 
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We've had a lot of discussion about alts, in particular Zum Uerige, here over the last few years. I got the latest issue of New Brewer yesterday and there's an article on mastering altbier by none other than Dr. Frank Hebmuller, who is the brew master and executive brewer at Zum Uerige. Here's what he says...
Water can be relatively hard with a high carbonate level. This is pretty much what my water is like. Malt is based on well modified pils, with a bit of caramel malt and a bit of "chocolate roasted wheat malt". Dunno exactly what that is. Mash schedule has rests at 125, 144, 158, and 169 (mashout). Boil time is 60-70 min. Mittelfruh, Perle, or Spalt are the preferred hops. Aroma hop addition is about 25% of the total hop amount. Add aroma hops no earlier than 20 min. before flameout. OG is 1.044-1.052. Primary between 59-68F. Secondary at 50F. Then condition at 32F for 14 days. FG should be 1.008-1.014. 4.3-5.5% ABV Here's the recipe he gives for 5 gal. ....
5.9 lb. Pils malt
.15 lb. Caramel malt (e.g. Weyermann Caramunich)
1.34 oz. Chocolate Roasted malt (e.g. weyermann Carafa Spezial Type 1)
.7 oz. Hallertau Mittlefruh - 6.5% - 60 min.
.46 oz. Perele - 7.5% - 60 min.
1.11 oz. Spalt - 5% - 20 min.
I intend to brew this as soon as it gets cool enough for alt season!
(Message edited by denny on August 02, 2007)
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Paul Erbe
Advanced Member
Username: Perbe
Post Number: 907
Registered: 05-2001
Posted From: 67.153.37.2
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 05:31 pm: |
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214 days.
Good post Denny. |
Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny
Post Number: 6407
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 63.114.138.2
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 05:35 pm: |
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OOOPS! It's corrected now!
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5000
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 05:41 pm: |
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"chocolate roasted wheat malt". Dunno exactly what that is
Why, its chocolate roasted wheat malt. 
http://www.weyermann.de/usa/produkte.asp?idkat=167&umenue=yes&idmenue=269&sprach e=10
I have some in stock...I will have to give this recipe a go...maybe Monday night! Thanks, Denny.
It makes me wonder, though, why Al Korzonas insists that when he visited Zum Uerige, they told him they use all Munich malt. Maybe a problem in the translation?
Skotrat feeds baby dolphins poisoned herring
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Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 4685
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.27.158.31
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 05:42 pm: |
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Cool info! We intend to go there this fall. Maybe I should crank out one to compare?
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Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5001
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 05:54 pm: |
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Good plan, Dan...even better would be to do one of your split batch experiments, and try the different European yeasts available, then report back to us which yeast bests matches Zum Uerige after your trip.
Skotrat feeds baby dolphins poisoned herring
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Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny
Post Number: 6408
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 63.114.138.2
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 06:12 pm: |
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Hard to say, Chumley. That was a long time ago. I guess either Al misunderstood or was misinformed, or they've changed things now. Thanks for the tip on the choc. roasted wheat, too!
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 4687
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 06:12 pm: |
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Good idea.
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Colby Enck
Intermediate Member
Username: Thecheese
Post Number: 433
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 70.44.68.25
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 06:37 pm: |
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Thanks, Denny. Now I won't have to make that crappy Zoom Alt recipe. |
Michael Owings
New Member
Username: Tafkaks
Post Number: 13
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 67.101.224.156
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 07:05 pm: |
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We were able to get ZU Sticke here for a while pretty fresh. Honestly, I wasn't that crazy about the Sticke. It was definitely a pils-malt base, though.
Skotrat feeds baby dolphins poisoned herring
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Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny
Post Number: 6409
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 63.114.138.2
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 07:52 pm: |
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In the article, Dr. Hebmuller mentions that the sticke is brewed to a higher, although unnamed, OG and dry hopped. The dopplesticke is 1.084 and 75 IBU.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 4690
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 07:57 pm: |
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Looking at hte recipe, it is hard to believe that it gets very dark with as little "farbmalz" as it has.
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Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5003
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 07:59 pm: |
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Does he state what IBUs the regular alt is brewed?
FWIW, when I plugged your recipe into StrangeBrew, at 100% efficiency I got an OG of 1.043, 35 IBUs. Looks like I will have to scale up for my system.
Hey, how about that! 5000 posts today! And only a thousand of them are baiting Dan...
Skotrat feeds baby dolphins poisoned herring
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Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny
Post Number: 6410
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 63.114.138.2
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 08:07 pm: |
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Chumley, he says that it "may be highly hopped (although the 25-35 IBU range is more normal for the majority of Altbiers from Dusseldorf). He doesn't relate this specifically to ZU, though. That's about it.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Brad Petit
Intermediate Member
Username: Voodoobrew
Post Number: 262
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 71.68.206.152
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 10:16 pm: |
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That's like 2.5 percent caramel malt... how much impact will that even have? |
Steve Funk
Intermediate Member
Username: Tundra45
Post Number: 375
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 209.216.179.179
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 11:32 pm: |
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Denny, are you sure that recipe is for 5-gal? I didn't plug in the numbers like Chumley, but it seems a bit meager on the malt bill to me. Dopplesticke, now were talking. Perfect excuse to use up some Perle hops I have hanging around. WY1007 yeast I assume? |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 4695
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
| | Posted on Friday, August 03, 2007 - 12:09 am: |
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Steve, you have a point. 5 gallons of 1.044 gravity wort made with 6 pounds of malt requires an extraction of better than 36 points per pound - a Milleresque extraction rate!
(Message edited by listermann on August 03, 2007)
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Mike G.
Member
Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 146
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 64.68.172.122
| | Posted on Friday, August 03, 2007 - 02:47 am: |
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Something else, the recipe didn't even call for the chocolate wheat malt.
Is the recipe just something to try, not necessarily the ZU recipe?? |
Michael Owings
New Member
Username: Tafkaks
Post Number: 14
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 74.167.105.151
| | Posted on Friday, August 03, 2007 - 03:56 am: |
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Denny: yeah -- a big part of my problem with the Sticke is that I'm not crazy about noble hops being used as dry hops. Still, even without the dry hops I think I'd take a pass -- although the Doppelsticke sounds intriguing.
Skotrat feeds baby dolphins poisoned herring
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Tom Fries
Junior Member
Username: Tfries
Post Number: 43
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 70.41.212.122
| | Posted on Friday, August 03, 2007 - 05:16 am: |
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I ruined a batch of Denny's Santa's Helper by dry hopping it with Spalt. It was not intentional, more of a brain fart. Anyway, I tried to like the beer, but ended up dumping it. The Spalt is a really grassy hop for dry hoping. I suspect that most noble hops are that way. |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5004
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Friday, August 03, 2007 - 03:42 pm: |
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After going through my stock on hand last night, and LOOSELY using the guidelines Denny extracted from the article, here's what I am going to brew this weekend(based my own efficiency of 70%)
8 lbs. Pils (I have a sack of Gambrinus)
1 lb. Munich (I know, not called for, but I like to add a pound of munich to make my bo-pils taste like the Czech version, so why not?)
6 oz. caramel wheat (no caramunich in stock)
3 oz. chocolate wheat
4 step mash as described
1.5 oz. Spalt bittering (60 min)
1 oz. Spalt flavor (20 min)
0.5 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh (5 min) (because that's all I have in stock)
WLP011 European yeast cake (just racked a blonde ale last night, the yeast cake is sitting in my lagering fridge in a growler at 34°F)
That should get me about 1.048 OG, 32 IBUs, 11.5 SRM.
Skotrat feeds baby dolphins poisoned herring
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davidw
Senior Member
Username: Davidw
Post Number: 1754
Registered: 03-2001
Posted From: 65.163.6.62
| | Posted on Friday, August 03, 2007 - 03:59 pm: |
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Seeing that recipe and noting the lack of Munich explains why I prefer my altbier over ZU. Good call to add some to your grist bill, Chumster.
Interesting mash schedule to say the least, considering that they are most likely using well modified maltz. |
Paul Erbe
Advanced Member
Username: Perbe
Post Number: 910
Registered: 05-2001
Posted From: 67.153.37.2
| | Posted on Friday, August 03, 2007 - 04:05 pm: |
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Alts are pretty Coppery in color. In promash I get about 9.4 SRM which seems right on.
Read Dornbusch's book on Alts and you will see that there is a very wide variance on grain bills for Alts.
My guess is that recipe was not scaled quite right from what ever it was reduced from. I am going to use the basic percentages and see what I get. 96% Pils, 2.5% Caramel, 1.5% Roasted Wheat. |
Paul Erbe
Advanced Member
Username: Perbe
Post Number: 911
Registered: 05-2001
Posted From: 67.153.37.2
| | Posted on Friday, August 03, 2007 - 04:25 pm: |
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So here it is with a reasonable extraction. I did not adjust the hops at all and ended up with 41 IBU's. Speaking of Munich I have about a pound of dark which would be nice in an alt.
Zum Uerige
A ProMash Recipe Report
AHA Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------
07-C Amber Hybrid Beer, Dusseldorfer Altbier
Min OG: 1.046 Max OG: 1.054
Min IBU: 35 Max IBU: 50
Min Clr: 13 Max Clr: 17 Color in SRM, Lovibond
Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 8.31
Anticipated OG: 1.047 Plato: 11.69
Anticipated SRM: 12.1
Anticipated IBU: 41.2
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes
Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------
Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 5.88 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.040 SG 10.00 Plato
Formulas Used
-------------
Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.
Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Daniels
Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Extract SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
96.2 8.00 lbs. Turbo Pils Germany 1.046 2
2.3 0.19 lbs. CaraMunich Malt Belgium 1.001 48
1.5 0.13 lbs. Roasted Wheat Malt Germany 1.001 650
Exract represented as SG.
Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.70 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Whole 6.50 16.4 60 min.
0.46 oz. Perle Whole 7.50 12.4 60 min.
1.11 oz. Spalter Spalt Whole 5.00 12.5 20 min.
Yeast
-----
White Labs WLP029 German Ale/Kolsch |
Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes
Post Number: 2826
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.49.148.10
| | Posted on Friday, August 03, 2007 - 04:40 pm: |
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Might have to give that a try next time. I'm brewing Denny's Milo's alt this afternoon. Using the WLP036 which he reports is not his fav  but I picked up a tube to try while it was available a couple months ago.
The Milo's grain bill is very differnt. It's primarily Munich instead of Pils. The ZU recipe probably suffered in the metric to English measure translation. Paul's version keeping the % the same looks reasonable. |
Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny
Post Number: 6411
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
| | Posted on Friday, August 03, 2007 - 04:58 pm: |
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Yes, I'm sure the recipe was for 5 gal. If you have questions, I'd suggest writing to Jill Redding, the editor of the New Brewer, and asking her to get them clarified. Her email is jill@brewersassociation.org .
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Joakim Ruud
Advanced Member
Username: Joques
Post Number: 897
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 84.208.70.198
| | Posted on Friday, August 03, 2007 - 05:09 pm: |
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Could be as simple as a miscalculation from metric to pounds. I know most Europeans think that a pound is 0,5 kilos when in fact it is 0,45. That's a 10 % discrepancy right there.
For to accuse requires less eloquence, such is man's nature, than to
excuse; and condemnation, than absolution, more resembles justice.
-Hobbes, Leviathan
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Sand
Intermediate Member
Username: Sand
Post Number: 311
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 209.173.170.10
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 02:31 am: |
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"chocolate roasted wheat malt" Would this comply with Reinheitsgebot? |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 4704
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.27.158.31
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 02:50 am: |
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If it is malted, it would.
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Martin Ostendorf
Junior Member
Username: Dutchie
Post Number: 68
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 192.87.3.14
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 07:36 am: |
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My personal favorite ZU Alt recipe (which I've brewed only once) has the following malt bill:
89% pilsner malt
9% caramunchener (120 EBC)
2% chocolate malt (900 EBC, debittered)
Calculated colour is 29 EBC (Morey)
The colour of this beer was equivalent to a fresh Uerige. The recipe I read hear uses much less cara120 (only 2.3%) and less dark malt. I don't think the Uerige colour is reached with this malt bill.
I brewed my alt with spalt only to 43 IBU. The original was clearly more bitter. My conclusion was that the Uerige alt has an approximate bitterness of 50 IBU. |
Sand
Intermediate Member
Username: Sand
Post Number: 312
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 209.173.170.10
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 07:33 pm: |
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Found the answer to my question.
"In addition to this, the absolute limitation to barley malt only applies to bottom-fermented beers. Top-fermented beers such as Koelsch may also contain malts from wheat or rye" |
Bill Walton
Member
Username: Vladie
Post Number: 195
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 69.14.187.10
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 02:22 am: |
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I can say for certain that caramunich is used for one of the Uerige beers; I saw sacks of it being toted around the day I was there. I tried talking to the brewer working that day, but didn't have much (or any for that matter) luck.
BW |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5033
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 03:41 pm: |
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So yesterday I racked this alt:
8 lbs. Gambrinus Pils
2 lb. Weyermann Munich
6 oz. Weyermann caramel wheat
3 oz. Weyermann chocolate wheat
Mashed in at 154°F for 4 hours
2 oz. Spalt bittering (60 min)
1 oz. Spalt flavor (20 min)
Fermented with WLP011 European ale yeast for 8 days at 62°F. OG 1.054....FG 1.008! 38 IBUs...the hydrometer sample tasted great! The use of the specialty wheat malts really add a unique taste to the alt. I can hardly wait for the beer to finish cold-conditioning (I am going to let it go for 6 weeks). |
Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny
Post Number: 6434
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 63.114.138.2
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 04:21 pm: |
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Thanks for the report, Chumley....I've gotta get some of that chocolate wheat malt.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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gregory gettman
Advanced Member
Username: Gregman
Post Number: 579
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 70.138.14.19
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 05:08 pm: |
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"chocolate roasted wheat malt"
Yeah it has kind of a nutty wheatness to it. It adds a slightly sweet and grainy flavor. I like to use it for Dunkle weizens, and once in a porter. I never thought of an alt though, good idea. |
Brian Miller
Junior Member
Username: Bj_mill
Post Number: 44
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 69.225.43.81
| | Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 01:28 am: |
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Chumley,
Did you really mash for 4 hours? |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5034
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 03:55 pm: |
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Yes....I have been on a Monday brewing kick as of late. I mash-in when I go home for lunch, then sparge when I get home from work. I am usually able to finish brewing around 9 p.m. Since I like dry, crisp beers, it seems to work pretty well. |
Greg Brewer
Member
Username: Greg_r
Post Number: 116
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 76.209.235.90
| | Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 04:08 am: |
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What I find amazing is that Chumley got 85% attenuation from a yeast with an average attenuation of 67.5%, and at a temperature below the recommended range of 65-70F, after mashing at a temperature that should yield a very dextrinous wort.
Consensus around here probably would predict a much higher FG with that mash. Does the length of the mash trump all the other variables? |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5036
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.227.169.136
| | Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 11:59 pm: |
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Greg, I think it way more has to do with using a yeast cake than the mash schedule. A fresh healthy yeast cake is just amazing.
I used the yeast cake of the alt for a CACA....I brewed it Wednesday....OG 1.056....three days later it is finished. I will have to go measure the final gravity and see what it is....I may have to use that yeast cake on a big ole barley wine. |
Chet Nunan
Member
Username: Chet
Post Number: 125
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 64.179.41.70
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 03:10 pm: |
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So a large enough yeast cake can ferment unfermentable dextrins created by a relatively high mash temp?
Seems to fly in the face of established brewing science. |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5038
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 05:22 pm: |
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Ummm....I don't think 154°F is all that high. Plus, I mashed in a 10-gallon Gott, so I doubt it stayed at 154° for the entire 4 hours.
Brewing science aside, results are results. I was a bit surprised it went that low, too....not because of the mash temperature, but because of the munich malt. |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 4753
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 06:54 pm: |
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It has always been my suspicion that worts fermented on a yeast cake attenuate more than conventional yeast supplies. I have never set up a test, but am frequently surprised at the FGs of beers fermented on yeast cakes. How or why, I can't say.
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Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5039
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 07:25 pm: |
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That is my experience as well....This year I have brewed a 1.090 barley wine with a WY1968 yeast cake, which has a reputation as being an underattenutive yeast...and got 78% attenuation. I also brewed a doppelbock, 75% Munich malt, with Staropramen yeast cake...it took 1.087 OG down to 1.018 FG at 52°F. |
Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes
Post Number: 2853
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.49.148.10
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 08:14 pm: |
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You don't mention the mash schedule for the doppelbock but that is very impressive attenuation for that much Munich. Although I know you usually mash a little lower when you use Munich. |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5044
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 07:32 pm: |
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Alrighty, last night I racked my cream ale...OG 1.056, FG 1.006! 89% attenuation! That beer will be dry as dust! |
Mike
Intermediate Member
Username: Macker
Post Number: 446
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 151.151.21.103
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 09:54 pm: |
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You got anything to drink, buster?
Buster's the one
with the red ass.
Come on, buster.
I'm as dry as dirt.
Hark, fair Juliet speaks.
|
Brews and Views Archive 2007 
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