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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2008 * Archive through March 30, 2008 * Raisin flavors < Previous Next >

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Steve Funk
Intermediate Member
Username: Tundra45

Post Number: 445
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 209.216.190.161
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 12:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have a question about the source of raisin flavors in beer. I thought it came from higher kilned malts like crystal 120°L. But...

David L. writes:
"Raisins are common taste associated with oxidation. Could it be that the porosity in the 16th century extinct Lithuanian oak is contributing a precise amount of oxidation?"

Can anyone comment about oxidation causing raisin flavors in beer?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 8579
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 12:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oxidation can cause sherry-like flavors in higher gravity beers (it's considered acceptable in some styles), and some people might say that is somewhat similar to raisins. I confess I don't know if part of the characteristic flavor of raisins is due to oxidation or not. I do agree that dark crystal malts such as crystal 120L and Special B contribute dark fruit flavors, including plums, black currants and raisins.

(Message edited by BillPierce on March 04, 2008)
 

David Lewinnek
Intermediate Member
Username: Davelew

Post Number: 436
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 198.51.251.205
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 04:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What? You mean people actually read my posts? Now I'm going to have to start worrying about actually being correct and stuff.

Here's what I was thinking: I taste rasin-ish flavor in sherry. Oxidation causes sherry-like flavors. Sherry, in fact, is usually oxidized. I sort of jumbled these thoughts in my head and thought that oxidation caused raisin flavor. My logic was clearly flawed.

If Bill Pierce doesn't think oxidation causes raisin like falvors, I think it's safe to say, at the very least, that it is NOT commonly thought that oxidation causes rasin flavors.
 

David Lewinnek
Intermediate Member
Username: Davelew

Post Number: 437
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 198.51.251.205
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 04:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I just did a quick search of the BJCP guideline for the word "raisin". It comes up as a desirable flavor in Strong Scotch Ale, English Mild, Southern English Brown Ale, Baltic Porter, RIS, Weizenbock, Oud Bruin, Dubbel, and Belgian Dark Strong Ale.

I'm not sure what information to glean from that list. All of the beers are dark, but not all dark beers on the list. I'd like to say that strong dark beers taste like raisins, but then i see things like the English Mild in that list, which is definitely not a strong beer.

So I still don't know much about raisin flavor. It looks like it comes from something other than oxidation and (based on weizenbocks not using crystal malts), something in addition to just dark crystal malts.
 

Kevin Kowalczyk
Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer

Post Number: 154
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 12.165.82.136
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 04:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

TWO SCOOPS!!
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 1549
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.253.156
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 04:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm not of the opinion that oxidation specifically causes raisin flavors that weren't already there to an extent, but according to Mr. Wizard, Ashton Lewis, in the recent "The Homebrewer's Answer Book":

"In the early stages of oxidation, beer takes on a wet paper or wet cardboard aroma that some Americans who drink imported beer have learned to love! As the beer oxidizes more, it begins to smell like honey and eventually takes on aromas typically found in sherry and over-ripened dried fruits, such as raisins and prunes." (emphasis added)

This obviously is not going to happen in a light American lager, for example, but could certainly happen in bigger, stronger, darker styles.
 

Ron Siddall
Advanced Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 538
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 198.135.241.18
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 04:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Post or Raisin Brand?
 

Skotrat
Advanced Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 572
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 75.67.98.168
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 05:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Post makes Raisin Bran...
 

Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 3088
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 74.7.7.66
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 07:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Since raisins and prunes are air dried it would certaily make sense that at least some of the flavor compounds in them might be products of oxidation. (SWAG disclaimer)
 

Skotrat
Advanced Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 573
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 75.67.98.168
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 08:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

makes sense Vance
 

Ron Siddall
Advanced Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 539
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 198.135.241.18
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 04:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What the hell does Kellog's make?
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 1407
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.204.51.87
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 05:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Post and Kellog's both make it.

I can't believe I am actually clarifying this...
 

Paul Erbe
Senior Member
Username: Perbe

Post Number: 1032
Registered: 05-2001
Posted From: 64.233.251.195
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 05:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I will further declarify

Raisin Bran is manufactured by several companies under a variety of brand names including General Mills' Total Raisin Bran and Raisin Nut Bran; and Kraft Foods' Post Raisin Bran.

Skinner's Raisin Bran was the first brand on the market, introduced in the United States in 1926 by U.S. Mills, best known for the similar Uncle Sam Cereal. The name "Raisin Bran" was at one time trademarked, but widespread use of the term to refer to any bran-and-raisin cereal caused it to become genericized, so that it can no longer be subject to trademark protections.

Today, the best known brand is Kellogg's Raisin Bran, introduced in 1942. It is known for its advertising slogan, "Two scoops of raisins in Kellogg's Raisin Bran" and its mascot, an animated sun named "Sunny" introduced in 1966. Kellogg's now also markets a variety called Raisin Bran Crunch, which contains crunchy oat and honey clusters. Raisin bran is touted for its high dietary fiber content, but sometimes criticized for containing too much sugar; raisins naturally contain high levels of fructose- in addition, to prevent clumping many manufacturers sugar the raisins.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5385
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.223.32
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 05:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I eat raisin bran for breakfast mostly because I don't really care for it so I don't eat too much.
 

Ron Siddall
Advanced Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 541
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 198.135.241.18
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 07:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, is cereal not used in making beer?

Yes, not THAT kind of cereal!

Dan, what the hell are you talking about? You eat if for breakfast, but you don't like it so you don't eat too much???? Why eat it at all?
 

The Jolly Brewer
Senior Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 1909
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 92.233.31.3
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 07:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lol,I get what you are saying Dan, but that is quite convoluted logic.
 

Skotrat
Advanced Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 574
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 75.67.98.168
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 08:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh Bother
 

Keith M Williams
Member
Username: Grok

Post Number: 213
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 192.250.34.161
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 08:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But, youd have to eat 4 bowls of something you do not like to get the hatred of one bowl of Total

Think about it.



I use special B (sharp, or flat) to get raisin/plum notes.
 

Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards

Post Number: 1549
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.252.8.71
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 08:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I eat raisin bran for breakfast mostly because I don't really care for it so I don't eat too much."

Wouldn't that be like drinking Coors Light so you didn't drink too much????
 

Skotrat
Advanced Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 575
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 75.67.98.168
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 08:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I get my Fiber in a pill...

It is the Manly way as I can wash it down with a nice beer
 

Kevin Kowalczyk
Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer

Post Number: 156
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 12.165.82.136
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 08:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

>>But, youd have to eat 4 bowls of something you do not like to get the hatred of one bowl of Total

Funniest thing I read all day.
 

Craig Henry
Advanced Member
Username: Sail

Post Number: 541
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 136.181.195.8
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 09:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You guys are too much!!!

Scott, isn't "manly" more like washing down fiber in the cardboard carton with a gasoline-like brew?
 

Ron Siddall
Advanced Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 542
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 198.135.241.18
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 09:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I use special B (sharp, or flat) to get raisin/plum notes"

I am playing cross harp in the key of A now. That's What I Like About You...
 

Steve Funk
Intermediate Member
Username: Tundra45

Post Number: 446
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 209.216.182.64
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 09:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow, how these threads wander about. Back to the question at hand. I think there could be something to the raisin flavor of dried grapes associated with oxidation but I wonder if it really has anything to do with the brewing process. Now, who will try drying grapes in an anaerobic chamber and do a taste test comparison with air dried grapes? Does anyone sulfite their mash AND notice an absence of dark fruit flavors in the appropriate styles? Perhaps the raisin flavor is instilled in the malt during kilning and is not dependent on brewing or fermentation. Personally, I do not associate oxidized "sherry-like" flavors with raisin- or plum-like flavors. But then again, I don't like sherry much so rarely taste it. I did taste another HBer's 5 year old Old Ale that tasted distinctly like sherry, but not of raisins that I recall.
 

Patrick C.
Advanced Member
Username: Patrickc

Post Number: 785
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 63.250.179.198
Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2008 - 07:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What happens if you stir Metamucil into your beer?
 

Brewzz
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewzz

Post Number: 431
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 70.112.116.217
Posted on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 12:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It makes alot of foam......DON'T DO IT !!!!!