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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2008 * Archive through November 18, 2008 * Going to brew a retro recipe < Previous Next >

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aleman
Member
Username: Aleman

Post Number: 163
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.230.101.247
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am on a 4 week end in a row brewing tear. This week end I will brew an APA. I just ordered the fixings for a beer that I tried years ago that I felt was incredibly tasty. I will brew this the following week end:

Be still my heart Grand Cru:

Brewing Method: All Grain
Yeast: Primary - Wyeast 3944 Belgian White Beer Secondary - Wyeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity
Yeast Starter: 1/2 Gallon
Batch Size: 10
Original Gravity: 1.080
Final Gravity: 1.008
Alcohol Content: 9.5 %
Total Grains: 24.45 lbs., 3.5 lbs. sugars
Color: 7.9
Extract Efficiency: 75 %
Hop IBU's: 27.8
Boiling Time: 90 min.
Primary Fermentation: 2 weeks at 65F
Secondary Fermentation: 4 weeks at 65F
Additional Fermentation: 4 months in bottle

Grain Bill:

4 lbs. Belgium Pale Ale 1.037 3
15 lbs. Belgium Pilsener 1.037 2
1.25 lbs. Belgium Aromatic 1.036 25
1.00 lbs. Flaked Soft White Wheat 1.034 2
1.60 lbs. Raw Wheat 1.034 2
1.60 lbs. Belgian Caramel Pils 1.027 7
1.50 lbs. Honey 1.042 0
2.00 lbs. Clear Candi Sugar 1.040 0

Hop Bill:

1.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 3.75% AAU 60 min.
0.75 oz. Hallertau Hersbrucker Whole 5.30% AAU 60 min.
2.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 3.40% AAU 60 min.
1.00 oz. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.50% AAU 20 min.
1.00 oz. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.50% AAU 0 min.

Mash Schedule:

Infuse at 114F with 1.57 quarts per pound (9.6 gallons). All other rests use direct heat.

Acid Rest 10 min. 105F
Protein Rest 15 min. 122F
1st Sach. Rest 15 min. 135F
2nd Sach. Rest 90 min. 152F
Mashout 10 min. 168F
Sparge 60 min. 168F

Brewers Notes:

Oat Hulls for Mash - 1 pound
2 tsp. Irish Moss 20 min.

Spice Bill
0.83 oz. Sweet Orange Peel 15 min.
0.83 oz. Bitter Orange Peel 15 min.
0.83 oz. Coriander Seed (ground) 5 min.
1.00 tsp. Cardamom (ground) 0 min.
0.42 oz. Coriander Seed (ground) 0 min.

Pitch a new starter of Wyeast 3787 at bottling. Bottle with 3/4 cup of dextrose.
 

Mike
Advanced Member
Username: Macker

Post Number: 515
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 151.151.73.167
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 11:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think you need a more complicated grain bill, and use Galenas for bittering.....and two separate stashes of Styrians?

Oh, and do you have an assitant brewer?

Good to see you, aleman
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5968
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.223.32
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 11:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Somebody please try to explain to me how a syrup like honey can have less water in it than a solid like candy sugar.
 

aleman
Member
Username: Aleman

Post Number: 164
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.230.101.247
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 11:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sadly I am between assistant brewers. Perhaps someone needs to come up with a Cadillac Ranch of Assistant Brewers.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9326
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.150.192.193
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 11:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, what do you mean? Are you talking about the volume of the honey, which affects the water needed calculations? Honey is approximately 20 percent water. One pound of honey has a liquid volume of about 10.6 fluid ounces, while a pound of water has a volume of 15.3 ounces (this is a corollary of the rule of thumb that a pint of water weighs 1 pound). In other words, the S.G. of honey is about 1.450.

For that matter, sugar (from grain, malt extract or other sugar) also has an effect on the wort volume. This has been measured quite accurately as 9.45 fluid oz. per pound. That is, if you add a pound of sugar to a gallon of water or wort the new volume will be 1.07 gallons (an additional 9.45 fluid ounces). Incidentally, at "normal" gravities the volume increase is independent of the wort or water volume prior to adding the sugar or extract.

(Message edited by billpierce on October 09, 2008)
 

aleman
Member
Username: Aleman

Post Number: 165
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.230.101.247
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 11:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is where LabRat needs to come in and put the total smack down!
 

Skotrat
Advanced Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 802
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 75.67.98.168
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 11:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

good luck Bill
 

Skotrat
Advanced Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 803
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 75.67.98.168
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 11:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Labrat does not chat here
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9327
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.150.192.193
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 11:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LabRat hasn't been here in years. I suppose he grew tired of the wrangling. I for one miss him.

Anyway, the subject of the volume contribution of sugar and extract is my one corner on geekdom. I've done a lot of research and thinking about this, far more than is good for me I'm sure.
 

aleman
Member
Username: Aleman

Post Number: 166
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.230.101.247
Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 12:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not to worry, I am summoning him now.

http://www.alleghenycandles.com/images/ouija-board-c.jpg
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5971
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 74.215.69.145
Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 12:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This has nothing to do with volume and it really isn't rocket science either. On one hand you have a mass of a substance that contains very little liquid (water in this case). On the other hand you have an equal mass of another substance which is about 20% liquid and 80% the first substance. If the substance weighs more than water, the first substance will have more of it in it than the second. Dilutions to produce equal volumes from a given mass of the first substance will produce higher concentrations than equal dilutions of the second.

(Message edited by listermann on October 09, 2008)
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9328
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.150.192.193
Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 02:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, I agree. The original impetus for my research came from cider and meadmaking, where the ingredients have a relatively high water content (for the record, the gravity of honey is about 1.450, while for apple juice it's typically about 1.050). I wanted to be able to accurately predict the O.G. and volume of my cider and mead. Eventually I came to the realization that the same principle applies even to all-grain brewing, where the contribution of the sugars extracted from the mash has an effect (admittedly quite a bit smaller) on the volume.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5972
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.223.32
Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 03:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A pound of sugar, dissolved in water, displaces 17 cubic inches.

The specific gravity of sugar, dissolved in water, is 1.628.

Plug and chug!
 

ScottDeW
Advanced Member
Username: Scott

Post Number: 556
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 128.129.13.2
Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 01:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

1.00 tsp. Cardamom (ground) 0 min.

Wow. That is a lot of Cardamom. I've used that spice in my Saisons for a number of years and have backed off to about 2 lightly crushed pods in 10 gallons. That is a very assertive spice.

Of course, that recipe has a lot going on and if you've done it in the past and like the results then Cardamom away.

Scott
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9332
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.150.192.193
Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 05:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, we're carrying on a geeky parallel discussion here, but where did you get the specific gravity figure of 1.628 for dissolved sucrose? According to Wikipedia, the S.G. is 1.587.

It's difficult to derive this for two reasons. First,the degrees Plato/S.G. formulas (based on curve fits) are quite nonlinear at the ends of the scale. If I apply two of the more accurate formulas (both based on third order fits) and a value of 100 degrees Plato (100 percent sucrose by weight), I arrive at S.G. figures of 1.577 and 1.564.

Secondly, sugar is not infinitely soluble in water. Even at boiling temperature, the solubility is limited to about 4.5 kg of sucrose per liter of water. That would be a concentration of slightly more than 73 percent by weight (accounting for the thermal expansion of the water). The corresponding S.G. is 1.375.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5975
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 74.215.69.145
Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 11:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think that I can calculate it.

One pound of sugar dissolved in enough water to make a gallon will have a gravity of 1.046 and weigh 8.731 pounds.

Subtracting the pound of sugar gives 7.731 pounds of water which, at 0.0361 pounds per cubic inch, occupies 214.02 cubic inches.

A gallon, being 231 cubic inches, less 214.02 cubic inches, gives 16.98 cubic inches displaced by a pound of sugar.

16.98 * .0361 = 0.613 pounds of water.

1 pound of sugar / 0.613 pounds of water = 1.631 specific gravity.

The 1.628 number was found by googling. The difference is probably due to rounding or not enough decimals in the original 1.046 figure.
 

Dave Witt
Senior Member
Username: Davew

Post Number: 1176
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 71.194.189.126
Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 11:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gee, I thought Dan was talking about the extract value of Candi sugar (1.040) versus honey (1.042) as it appears in aleman's recipe.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5977
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 74.215.69.145
Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 12:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dave, we can consider that too!

Bill said that honey is typically 80% sugar. Anyone what to debate that?

A pound of honey therefore contains 0.8 pounds of sugar and a 0.2 pounds of water.

0.8 pounds of honey occupies .8 * 16.98 = 13.584 cubic inches.

A gallon, at 231 cubic inches, less the volume of 0.8 pounds of sugar, contains 231 - 13.584 = 217.4 cubic inches of water which weighs 217.4 * .0361 = 7.849 pounds.

The weight of the water 7.849 plus the weight of the sugar 0.8 gives the solution's total weight at 8.649 pounds.

8.649 / the weight of a gallon of water - 8.345 = 1.0364 for the gravity contribution of honey which is a perfectly reasonable number.

I need to rack and carbonate some mild ale. Maybe I will find the time to calculate the percentage sugar for a honey whose gravity contribution would be 1.042.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5978
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 74.215.69.145
Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 01:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Done!

If 1.046 is the gravity contribution of dry sugar to make a gallon solution, a 1.042 contribution would be 42 / 46 * 100 = 91.3% solids.

Now candy sugar, supposedly at a 1.040 contribution, would be 86.9% sugar. What the rest is, I would not know. Sometimes water gets bound up in things as they solidify. Anybody know?
 

gregory gettman
Advanced Member
Username: Gregman

Post Number: 688
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 69.183.64.21
Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 03:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't think I understand the question?
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5979
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.223.32
Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 11:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

42
 

Kevin Kowalczyk
Intermediate Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer

Post Number: 305
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 12.165.82.136
Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 03:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There are other things in honey than just sugar and water.
 

Kevin Kowalczyk
Intermediate Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer

Post Number: 306
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 12.165.82.136
Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 03:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is from wikipedia:

Typical honey analysis[18]

Fructose: 38.0%
Glucose: 31.0%
Sucrose: 1.0%
Water: 17.0%
Other sugars: 9.0% (maltose, melezitose)
Ash: 0.17%
Other: 3.38%
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9336
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 216.145.99.4
Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 04:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, thanks for your derivation of the sugar volume calculations. That makes sense to me.

As to the question about the extract potential of candi sugar, I've never accepted 1.040 for clear candi sugar. As far as I'm concerned it's pure sucrose and should have an extract potential of 1.04621, the standard value for sucrose. I can, however, understand that the extract potential would be lower for amber and dark candi sugar, in which the caramelization has created other sugars and compounds.
 

gregory gettman
Advanced Member
Username: Gregman

Post Number: 689
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 70.233.85.221
Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 09:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is that The Hitchhikers Guide the Galaxy quote? 42
 

Skotrat
Advanced Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 804
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 75.67.98.168
Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 01:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

check your towel Gregman

Just to be sure
 

Skotrat
Advanced Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 805
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 75.67.98.168
Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 02:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

also,

Credit should probably be given to the creators of this recipe. They are two fantastic Belgian beer brewers...

KenRat & Zythos

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat/recipes/ale/belgian/recipes/31.html