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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2009 * Archive through March 01, 2009 * Tripel sugar experiment < Previous Next >

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Tex Brewer
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Username: Texbrewer

Post Number: 350
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 99.49.32.10
Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 08:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I made a tripel (25 lb pilsner malt, 1 lb wheat, 5 lb sugar equivalent) and split 10 gal, with half getting Belgian candi sugar and the other half getting pure maple syrup. Fermented with WY 3787 (Trappist High Gravity) at 64 for 1 week to minimize esters and phenolics. Then raised to 68 and added sugar/maple (pre-boiled) and went for a second week. Then racked to secondary after 2 weeks. At bottling, the candi was primed with corn sugar and the maple was primed with maple syrup to 3.0 volumes. It took a long time to carbonate fully (3-4 weeks), and I would add more yeast at bottling next time. This was inspired by Ted Hausotter's article several months ago.

Results: The candi was preferred by most, but not all, tasters (non-professional). The maple added some complexity to the flavor, especially in the aftertaste. Not identifiable as maple, but a unique flavor. The candi was a cleaner flavor. Both were excellent. An outstanding tripel either way. 9.8% abv, but not hot. Head did not retain very well, which I don't understand. I guess I should add more wheat malt next time. Any suggestions there?

(Message edited by texbrewer on January 18, 2009)
 

mark taylor
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Username: Marktaylo

Post Number: 218
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 201.159.197.214
Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 09:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This may not be the case but from my experience, when I use a lot of sugar adjuncts(more than 15%) in my recipes I get less head retention.
mark
www.backyardbrewer.blogspot.com
 

Bill Pierce
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Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9855
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.150.192.193
Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 10:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tex, I'd be more interested in the comparison between clear Belgian candi sugar and ordinary white table sugar (cane or beet). My contention is that there is no difference.

Mark, my beers brewed with white sugar as an adjunct have no head retention problems at all. If I weren't lazy I'd post a picture of a glass of my current Duvel clone, which is 20 percent white table sugar. We had a very prolific poster here on B&V a few years ago, Fredrik, who did a number of fermentation experiments with beers that were 50 percent sugar. Some of them had a thick mousse-like head.

(Message edited by BillPierce on January 19, 2009)
 

Tex Brewer
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Username: Texbrewer

Post Number: 351
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 99.49.32.10
Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 10:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, Ted Hausotter did that experiment and documented it in Zymurgy ("The Sugars of Tripel"). I (and he) posted on it here back in July http://hbd.org/discus/messages/43688/45493.html?1217426766. Belgian candi was the clear winner in two tastings with experienced panels. Corn, cane, and brown sugars were also tested. The cane sugar ranked much lower than the candi with apple cidery flavors noted. I took it a step further by trying the maple syrup experiment.

I still don't know why I got a head that drops so quickly.
 

Ted Hausotter
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Username: Lagerman

Post Number: 12
Registered: 07-2008
Posted From: 71.222.95.197
Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 11:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, Make a trip to Baker City, OR. I just found those kegs in the back of the walk in. You can still taste the difference.

Ted
 

Ted Hausotter
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Username: Lagerman

Post Number: 13
Registered: 07-2008
Posted From: 71.222.95.197
Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 11:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tex, The lack of head from a recipe issue is a combo of sugar and yeast. Some yeasts will give great head retention with sugar beers, others will not. I am brewing a tripel with the same yeast next weekend, will let you know how it comes out.

Ted
 

Bill Pierce
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Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9856
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.150.192.193
Posted on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 01:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ted, then what is Belgian clear candi sugar chemically? Is it not merely sucrose in larger crystals than white table sugar? And aren't the crystals dissolved in the wort in the same way?
 

Ted Hausotter
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Username: Lagerman

Post Number: 14
Registered: 07-2008
Posted From: 71.222.95.197
Posted on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 02:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, no they are different. Belgian candy sugar can start as sucrose and inverted, or as a less refined sugar before we have all sucrose. During the inverting process, sucrose is broken down into fructose and glucose giving a 50/50 mix, IF you have complete inversion. Less refined sugars will have a different mix and some products that get refined out. The old Brewers Garden crystals was a 65/35 mix fructose to glucose. I would venture a guess that honey would be closer, but then again, the additional stuff sure gives a lot of flavor. The key is that Sucrose is not digestable by the yeast cells without converting with enzymes. The differences in flavor are light and you need to do a side by side comparision to tell them apart. When you do, the sucrose will stand out. THe best way to describe it, is the winning edge. You can get a 35 Tripel with sucrose, but the same with corn or Belgian candy could be a 40 point beer.

You need to just taste it, take a beer you are tired with or is extra and split it into to kegs add equal amounts of sugar to each and yeast if necessary. You will taste the difference.

One additional note on sucrose, the cider flavor does exist, you can taste it in imported English beers, many use sucrose. It will age out over 4 to 6 months in more flavorful beers.

Ted
 

Ted Hausotter
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Username: Lagerman

Post Number: 15
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Posted From: 71.222.95.197
Posted on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 02:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I forgot to mention, I started thinking that sugar was sugar and there was no difference in flavor when fermented!
 

Tex Brewer
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Username: Texbrewer

Post Number: 352
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 99.49.32.10
Posted on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 03:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here is a pretty good article on this http://www.fermentarium.com/content/view/238/58/

A key part for brewers:
"To break down sucrose, the yeast must first produce an invertase enzyme. It’s an extra step for the yeast, but the yeast (and most organisms) can do it. Some people report the enzyme produced by the yeast can give the beer an off flavor."
 

Tex Brewer
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Username: Texbrewer

Post Number: 353
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 99.49.32.10
Posted on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 03:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And on the head retention front, has anyone else experienced a problem along those lines with WY3787 and Belgian candi sugar? Various articles I found suggested the candi sugar helped produce the dense, mousse-like head. But my candi vs. maple experiment produced almost identical heads. Fairly sizeable (it is carbonated to 3.0 after all), but it falls quickly.

How about more wheat malt, and/or adding some flaked oats?
 

Ted Hausotter
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Post Number: 16
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Posted From: 71.222.95.197
Posted on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 04:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I like 10% wheat
 

Bill Pierce
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Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9858
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.150.192.193
Posted on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 11:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One of the reasons for inverting sugar is in the making of sugar syrup. Inverted sugar recrystallizes much less easily than sucrose, remaining liquid. The old Brewers Garden (I've heard it's no longer available) candi sugar was in the form of very large crystals, like old-fashioned rock candy. I'm surprised that it would crystallize that easily if it were inverted. You mention that it is 65 percent fructose, as opposed to 50 percent in white table sugar.

I'd like to see the experiment repeated. Another data point that I have comes from the brewer of a tripel that won a silver medal at the GABF some years ago. He said he used white sugar from the restaurant kitchen of his brewpub.
 

Dan Listermann
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Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6441
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.223.32
Posted on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 01:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you really want to know what the cidery flavor is, get some fairly old, but not years old, extract. Ferment it straight up without sugar.

Really old extract taste sherry like.
 

Mike G.
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 323
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 64.68.165.2
Posted on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 06:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tex, with respect to the head retention, what was the mashing regime?

In regard to the sugars, I don't have much experience on the subject, but I have a few thoughts and questions:

1. In the original experiment, how much sugar (as a percentage of total gravity points) was used?

2. In my mind, the addition of the sugar to the secondary will produce different fermentation characteristics than if the sugar was added to the boil. Is it possible that the secretion of invertase is much more stressful event with a late sugar addition (yeast are tired), than with sugar added in the boil?

Also, Ted, I have read anecdotal evidence that Fosters and other Australian brewers use sucrose in their macro-lagers, I am assuming 20-30 percent but don't know for sure.

<edit> a final thought: maybe certain yeast strains can't handle sucrose like other strains can??

(Message edited by mikeg on January 19, 2009)
 

Graham Cox
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Username: T2driver

Post Number: 2056
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.253.156
Posted on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 06:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Stag, made by Carib, uses cane sugar, as far as I know. From their website:

Physical Taste Profile

Stag is an European style lager. It is a pale golden straw colour with a rich head formation. It is a light-bodied beer brewed with sugar as an adjunct. Stag has a dry finish, which results in a crisp flavour, clean finish and very little aftertaste. Aroma tends to drift towards fermented ester fruitiness, with a gentle yet assertive hop bitterness. Diacetyl should not be perceived.

Original Gravity 11.5 - 11.9°P
Alcohol by Volume: 5.4 - 5.9%
Bitterness 16.0 - 7.5 EBU
Colour 5.5 - 7.5 EBC
Calorific value 120kcal/275ml


It's not a bad beer - pretty tasty, actually, on a warm day in Trinidad.
 

Dan Listermann
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Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6442
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 74.83.191.159
Posted on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 07:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Graham, is it "cidery?"
 

Bill Pierce
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Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9861
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Posted From: 24.150.192.193
Posted on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 08:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've always attributed the so-called extract "tang" or "twang" (I prefer the former; to me "twang" is something from country music) to less than fresh extract. It's a somewhat different flavor than cider, sharper and with overtones of oxidation, but neither would I call it quite like sherry.
 

Joakim Ruud
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Username: Joques

Post Number: 1297
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 84.208.79.179
Posted on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 09:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nono, twang is the sound a bowstring makes when you release it :-)
 

Graham Cox
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Username: T2driver

Post Number: 2058
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Posted on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 09:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, it isn't cidery at all, at least not to my palate. It's really quite a tasty beer for the style.
 

Tex Brewer
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Username: Texbrewer

Post Number: 354
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Posted From: 216.203.59.252
Posted on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 09:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike, the mash temp (infusion) was about 145 for one hour.

About 5 lb sugar equivalent were used with 26 lb grain. It comprised about 25% in terms of extract potential. OG=1.082, FG=1.008.

As for adding the sugar after a week of primary fermentation as opposed to at the end of the boil and the effect on invertase, I don't know. I suppose it's possible that invertase produced at the beginning of fermentation could have a different fate than that produced later. It was recommended to use the method I did to spread out the feeding of the yeast in a multi-course meal, rather than hitting them with an overflowing plate of BBQ, beans, potato salad, and slaw from the git go.
<edited the mash temp and % sugar>

(Message edited by texbrewer on January 20, 2009)
 

Jerrod Scott
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Username: Jrod

Post Number: 24
Registered: 02-2008
Posted From: 71.38.85.157
Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 01:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ted--Funny we should meet here. I'm now living in Nampa ID but grew up in Vale OR. Cheers.

As for the sugar--invertase is needed to "invert" sugar. Fortunately, according to Randy Thiel formerly of Ommegang, this compound is present in the wort (I believe yeast have the capability to create this but might be making it up). On a Sunday Session of The Brewing Network he describes his submission of Belgian Candy sugar in syrup form to a major chemical maker in order to cut the cost of shipping it from Belgium. Evidently they told him they would be screwing him if they sold him this solution because it was pure table sugar. My experience is that you can use a whole lot of table sugar and not get cider. I started trying it because the best Belgian brewer in America (IMHO) told me it was ok.
 

Bill Pierce
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Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9865
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.150.192.193
Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 02:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jerrod, yeast have the ability to easily invert the glucose-fructose bond in sucrose. They have developed this via evolution; it's basic to their survival.

The cheapest source of glucose (the simplest carbohydrate), far less expensive than clear Belgian candi sugar, is the corn sugar (dextrose monohydrate) used by many homebrewers for priming. There is also granulated fructose sold at many health and natural food stores, and high fructose corn syrup (I'm unaware of a retail source, but it's extremely common in commercial baking and soft drinks). I believe Brewery Ommegang uses corn syrup. The company Randy Thiel asked for advice about Belgian sugar was Archer Daniels Midland, one of the world's largest manufacturers of high fructose corn syrup.

I don't want to criticize Ted's admirable experiment. It's one data point. I would like to see more research into this subject, perhaps a 10 gallon batch of wort split among 10 one-gallon fermenters. The more typical method used by Belgian brewers is to add the sugar either at flameout or to the fermenter.
 

Dan Listermann
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Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6443
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Posted From: 65.29.223.32
Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 03:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, I have more than enough one imperial gallon jugs to do what you have in mind. What would you do?
 

Bill Pierce
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Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9866
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Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 01:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, I would brew a 10 gallon batch of a good Belgian tripel recipe with an eventual O.G. of 1.080. Use all the ingredients except for the sugar. Chill the wort and fill (to about 80 percent full) each of the one imperial gallon jugs. Then dissolve in a little warm water half a pound of each of the following sugars:

White sugar (cane)
White sugar (beet)
Corn sugar
Granulated fructose
High fructose corn syrup (from a commercial bakery)
Clear Belgian candi sugar (the large crytals)
Clear Belgian candi sugar syrup
Clover honey
Light maple syrup
Lyle's Golden Syrup

Add the appropriate sugar solution to each of the fermenters. Pitch equal amounts of the yeast sediment from a 5 liter starter of Wyeast 3787 (the Westmalle strain). Ferment at 70 F. When fermentation is complete, bottle (I'd use 2 liter soda bottles) and prime with corn sugar (measured by weight) for 3.5 volumes of CO2. Add a little rehydrated dry yeast (US-05) to each bottle. Carbonate and bottle condition for six weeks.

Then assemble a panel of BJCP judges and experienced Belgian beer tasters. Have them judge the beers using standard BJCP scoresheets and paying special attention to the flavor component.
 

Bill Pierce
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Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9870
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Posted From: 24.150.192.193
Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 03:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

After rereading the appropriate sections of Brew Like a Monk, I stand corrected about my earlier post. Brewery Ommegang uses mostly corn sugar as an adjunct in its beers. It was Victory Brewing that asked Archer Daniels Midland to analyze Belgian clear candi sugar. The recommendation was to use ordinary white sugar, which ADM does not manufacture. This is what Victory apparently now uses in its Golden Monkey tripel.
 

Dan Listermann
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Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6445
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Posted From: 74.83.191.159
Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 04:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That is a lot of stuff to gather.

How do you find beet versus can sugar?

The granualted fructose and the high fructose corn sugar would be a bit of a challenge.
 

Bill Pierce
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Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9871
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Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 04:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, I understand. You could also brew a 5 gallon batch and split it five ways.

Granulated fructose is available at health and natural food stores (some people tolerate it better than sucrose because it metabolizes slightly more slowly). I've seen it at larger mainstream supermarkets as well. You wouldn't have much trouble finding high fructose corn syrup from a commercial bakery, even a small one. There are also a couple of bakers who frequent this board.

(Message edited by BillPierce on January 20, 2009)
 

Paul Edwards
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Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 05:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan,

Cane sugar is clearly marked "cane sugar" on the label.

Wal-Mart's house brand of sugar is labelled in the contents section as being beet sugar.

And if the sugar comes from a company someplace in the midwest like Michigan or Minnesota, or North Dakota, it's in all likelihood beet sugar.
 

Denny Conn
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Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 05:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have plans to split a batch of wort between at least 3 different kettles so the various sugars will be added to the boil, as normal. Don't hold yer breath waiting for me to get it done, though!
 

Jeff Rankert
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Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 06:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you find Pioneer or Big Chief brands of sugar, those are beet sugar. Sugar beets are a big crop in the thumb of Michigan, as Paul pointed out - if it says Michigan it is beet sugar (sugar cane doesn't do well up here for some reason). I have used those up to 20% in a tripel, no cider flavors.
 

mark taylor
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Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 07:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I always figured that if it didn't say 'cane sugar' on the package, that it was beet sugar.
mark
www.backyardbrewer.blogspot.com
 

Bill Pierce
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Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9874
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Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 09:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Domino and C&H brands are both cane sugar. I grew up in Michigan and was raised on Pioneer and Big Chief beet sguar (this was in the 1950s before the evils of so much simple sugar in our diets were stressed).

(Edited for typing error in the decade.)

(Message edited by BillPierce on January 21, 2009)
 

Steve Jones
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Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 09:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow Bill ... you don't look nearly that old .

Dixie Crystals here in the south is a cane sugar as well. I remember Pioneer and Big Chief from my youth.
 

Ted Hausotter
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Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 02:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Man don't you guys work? Sugars do bring out a lot of questions

Inverting, it is possible to invert in the kettle due to the acidity of the wort. With that said, I have never tried it, but could see how it would have a different flavor impact.

Cider flavor in beer is a discussion point all of its own. I started brewing back in the brown hop days, every recipe had sugar in it. We had 2 choices, beet or cane, we went with the cheapest. Corn sugar was not offered at the wine stores in the early 80's. Standard recipe was 1 can of malt extract and 2 to 6 pounds of sugar, hops if available were brown. I did not know they were supposed to be green for years! Yes they came out cidery a lot of the time, but not always. I became a purist after that and dropped the 50% sugar when I wanted to make a beer versus open a can of pork and beans. Since then, sugar has crept back in and I use sucrose in my mild, no cider flavor, it is put in the boil and smaller amounts. In my Belgians I also used it, noticeable lack of intrigue. With corn sugar or Belgian candy, it is much more exciting. From a contest standpoint, I win a lot more contests with corn or Belgian candy than with cane.

Based on my experience, I believe the cider flavor has 3 main variables, quantity used, yeast strain and when added to the wort. What is a bigger concern are the flavors other than the cider, after all let it wait for 3 months and it is disappearing. When I use sucrose, I find that the intensity and complexity of the malt profile is muted versus using the same gravity points of brewer’s garden Belgian candy sugar or corn sugar. As my goal is to be home brewer of the year at nationals, I will not use sucrose for any Belgian beer.

As to beers that use it, I am not surprised to hear it used in Australia, I taste cider in many beers from their. In drinking with Ron Bach a GM3 judge, we both tasted cider in our 4 different pints of English ales on my last trip to FL. Speckled hen was the most pronounced. I probably perceive it easier than others. Victory’s Golden Monkey claim to fame in my opinion is that it is made in the USA; the tripel is more than a bit lack luster when compared to other tripels. I did not taste cider in it. With that said, I do enjoy a bottle, I just know I can buy and make one that is better.

Bill, well said, my brewing experiment is one data point, many variables to play with that can keep some brewers busy for months. I just don't like to drink the outcome. Sorta like Chinook hops, I prefer to brew without either. It is time for me to work on my next magabatch, 7 IPAs, each on varietal hops.
 

Ted Hausotter
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Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 02:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We got sidetracked from the question on head and retention by Tex. As people may have mentioned earlier, wheat, crystals, flaked grains like oats, barely and wheat all increase head retention. Mash schedule can ruin or help what you put in the pot. The final gate that prevents the potential of good retention is the yeast. In my past brewing experiments, I do many big worts and ferment on 5 different yeasts. They all have different head characteristics, some failing fast others with long firm stands and some rocky. My tasting notes did not record head types and retention. I did find that on the Belgian strains from Wyeast 3522 had the rockiest head of the 5 I tried.
 

Dan Listermann
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Posted on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 12:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Standard recipe was 1 can of malt extract and 2 to 6 pounds of sugar, hops if available were brown. . . . . Yes they came out cidery a lot of the time, but not always."

This is where I contend that the can's freshness comes into play. Fresh extract, no cider - stale, cidery.
 

Tex Brewer
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Username: Texbrewer

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Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ted, thanks for finally giving a response to my question. I was getting ready to re-post it. I will try Belgian Ardennes (WY3522) next time.

But let me re-ask the other question, which you addressed briefly. What is the impact of adding sugar near the end of the boil vs. adding it after a week of primary? If using Belgian candi, the inverting should not be a factor, right? Is it more important to feed the yeast in stages, or is it more important to have everything cooked together in the kettle?
 

Ted Hausotter
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Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 12:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tex, The Ardennes is a fun yeast that will give you a more rustic, farmhouse feel, my #3 favorite Tripel yeast. Probably a bit unique to be a big ribbon winner.

On the when to add sugar, you have 2 choices incremental feeding the yeast if you are pushing them (high grav or bad yeast management) and you would add to primary or secondary. Otherwise, why not boil it. If you boil full term, you can get some inverting going on, with Belgian candy or other sugars that are inverted, it is not a problem, you can add anytime.

Dan, my only data point on real old extract is when I had severe bottle fatigue for about 8 years. After I found some kegs to cure the SBF, I found an old can of Munton and Fison pale malt extract hidden in the garage. It brewed brown from longterm melanodin development. I do not recall the beer, other than larger caramel like components. One of the other problems with extract is the amount of sugar already added to them.

Bill, I forgot to respond to your question about inverted sugar not crystallizing. It can be crystallized through heating to the "hard crack" stage of normal candy making (after inverting). One of the crystal growers at a sugar plant in Idaho inverts sugar and then heats it to brown, caramel color then heats to the hard crack.
 

Dan Listermann
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Post Number: 6502
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Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 04:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have found a very high correlation between the age of extract and its tendency to throw cidery flavors and I believe that this is the source of a major misconception regarding sugar and that flavor.

As for sugars already in extract, I have found the flavor in bulk extracts, again old, which should have no sugar in them. Also the flavor does not seem to show up in all grain brews despite loads of sugar.

For example today, as I type, I am making a rye wine that will be more than 40% corn sugar. I have no reason to believe that it will be cidery based on many past experiences with this sort of recipe. I am highly confident that it will exhibit nothing like the cidery flavors I have found in old extract.
 

Tex Brewer
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Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 07:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, Ted's experiments have found the cidery flavor to be absent with corn sugar (and Belgian candi sugar). He says it is present with cane sugar only.

Your old extract results are interesting. Use it fresh. I don't know whether sugar is added to some extracts, but I would assume they must list the ingredients to reveal that.
 

Dan Listermann
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Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 09:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have a batch of malt liquor finishing now that has about the same ratio of cane sugar. I tasted it this morning and if it has any cidery flavor at all, it is nothing compared to the flavor that stale extract produces.
 

Doug W
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Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 03:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do I get into this sugar debate...Laughs.. Hmmmm I no longer work in the industry, but went to 5 weeks of school in Colrado at the institute for it. Lets just say that if we want to go deeper into it we can. Chemically both beet and cane sugar are the same, the difference is in the molasses as beet molasses is bitter where as cane is sweeter and used for food production. Beet molasses is used in animal feed.

Belgian Candi sugars are inverted with the use of acids to break down the bonds into the simple sugars at various layers. I have seen the HPLC reports on a few and might even still have a few of the graphs in my stuff.
 

Denny Conn
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Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 06:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug, I'd be curious to know which Belgian candi sugars you're talking about.
 

Doug W
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Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 07:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For one, the Dark Belgian Candi Sugar liquid sample I was sent we ran thru my former employers HPLC and compared to some industry standard profiles. Additionally, the HPLC identified each sub component by % of content.

Also, one of the managers used to work for a now defunct speciality sweetener company out west that made invert sugars out of both surcose and dextrose base materials.
 

Denny Conn
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Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 08:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Doug. Just to make sure I've it right....the Belgian candi syrup that darkcandi.com sells is inverted. Correct?
 

Mike G.
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Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 11:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny, this is for the "D" syrup, from that website:

Fructose: 16.34%
Sucrose: 29.84%
Glucose: 18.10%
Carbohydrates: 64.28%

I'm no Doug, but it looks like it is partially inverted, no?
 

Bill Pierce
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Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 12:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'll join the chorus. I'm not Doug (nor do I play him on TV ), but yes, the "D" (dark) Belgian candi syrup is partially inverted.
 

Doug W
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Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 04:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

that is a correct assumption, and Lucky, I am Doug and that is the exact product Denny I was talking about.

some year ago I sent like 8 different cuts of sugar samples to Stan H. but I dont know if he ever did anything with it.
 

Denny Conn
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Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 04:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, all.