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Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 301
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 09:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The Dow Jones Industrial Average ended the day today at a record setting all-time high of $11,727.34.

I blame Bush!

Oil prices are now down to $58.68 a barrel.

I blame Bush!

A noted U.S. hurricane forecaster said on Tuesday the milder-than-expected Atlantic season will produce just two more tropical storms and no more "major" hurricanes.

I blame Bush!

The evil genius, George W. Bush, has conspired to manipulate the stock markets and the weather systems to make himself look better for the upcoming mid-term elections!

Perhaps we need to find a way to smear him so the Democrats can have a chance to win back some seats in November? I got it! We need to slowly release information regarding immoral acts of a Republican sleazebag in order to make it look like the Republican leadership knew all about it months ago. this way, we can lump all the Republicans into one pile and make them all look like perverts!

Since us liberals are in charge of the media, we will not ask ourselves where we got this information and when we got it. We just need to use the trump card of protecting our sources. It does not matter that our sources deliberately witheld incriminating information regarding a possible child molester from the authorities. we have the constitution on our side!

Oh yeah, let's also forget to mention that the legal age of consent in Washington D.C is 16. Remember that this served Representative Gerry Studds well. Gerry Studds (D-Mass.) had engaged in sexual relationships with minors, specifically 17-year-old congressional pages. Studds, however, stood by the facts of his case and refused to apologize for his behavior, and even turned his back on Congress ignoring the censure which was being read to him. Later, he called a press conference with the former page, in which both stated that the young man, who was 17, consented. Studds had taken the adolescent to Morocco to engage in sexual activity, and therefore did not break any U.S. laws in what he called a "private relationship." He continued to be reelected until his retirement in 1996.

Somehow, this has to be Bush's fault too!
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3431
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 09:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Somehow, this has to be Bush's fault too!"

Tough time being a righty, isn't it?

(Message edited by listermann on October 03, 2006)

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Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 302
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 11:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Tough time being a righty, isn't it?"

Absolutely not.

Watching the Looney left salivate with their guilt-by-association ambush tactics only makes it clearer to the voting public how desparate the left is to win at all costs.

Had Foley been a Democrat, The ACLU would come riding to the rescue in their white limousines saying the opressive Neocons are violating Foley's civil rights by forcing him to resign. To the left, and in particular, the ACLU, homosexuality and pedophelia are sacred rights. Maybe if Foley would join NAMBLA they would rush to his aid...

Here is the question. Did Foley commit a crime? He may be a pervert, but he was not exactly caught with $90,000 bribe money in his freezer.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3432
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 12:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Have a nice election, Bob.

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Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 303
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 01:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I guess you got me there Dan.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

No MoreYears
New Member
Username: Nomoreyears

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 08:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dow Jones when Bush took office: 10,587.59
Annual return while in office: 1.7%

Dow Jones when Clinton took office: 3,255.99
Annual return while in office: 15%

Price of oil when Bush took office: ~$25.57/bbl
Increase during term: 135%

Price of oil when Clinton took office: ~$22.83/bbl
Increase during term: 12%

The original post was noticeably silent about Iraq, but it's not surprising that conservatives don't like to talk about the subject. In the first 4 days of this month, there have been 14 US soldiers killed there, bringing the total to 2,730.

This war isn't justified.

I blame Bush.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3435
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 01:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"The original post was noticeably silent about Iraq, but it's not surprising that conservatives don't like to talk about the subject. In the first 4 days of this month, there have been 14 US soldiers killed there, bringing the total to 2,730. "

"Progress?"

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Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 306
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 07:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's all about Iraq, isn't it?

Yep, it's all about Iraq and...India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Kabardino-Balkaria and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and...

...and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."
--Qur'an, Sura 9:29


As of today Islamic Terrorists have carried out 6009 deadly terror attacks since September 11th 2001.

Weekly Jihad Report
(9/24 - 9/30)
Jihad Attacks: 59
Dead Bodies: 254
Critically Injured: 310

I blame Mohammed.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1271
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 07:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh Bob, how easily you forget. One so-called Christian attacked an abortion clinic and killed a couple people in the last few years, so therefore all Christians are just as dangerous as Islamic terrorist in the mind of a liberal.

Moral relativity is key when you are a liberal. One Christian does something bad and therefore we must condemn all Christians, but thousands upon thousands of Muslims kill people and we hear "But it is the religion of peace, those are just some bad apples".
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3440
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 09:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Genocide, Bob, genocide.

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Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 308
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 09:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just like all Republicans are sleazeballs because one of them acts like a liberal.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 309
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 09:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Knowledge Dan, Knowledge.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3441
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 09:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, what other answer to your rant than genocide? If the religion is the problem, you have to destroy the religion. Death is the most sure way to destroy a religion. Genocide is the answer. Please give me another. Perhaps "Stay the Course" or "More of the Same?"

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Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 310
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 09:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I see you are still beating that same old dead horse Dan. Are you suffering from myopia? Or are you just too lazy to come up with a legitamate argument?
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1272
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 09:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

How about starting by calling it what it is instead of sugar coating it for fear of offending?

Case in point. In simple terms the Pope calls Islam the religion of violence. All the handwringers are worried that he offended Muslims. What happens? Muslims protest VIOLENTLY about his comments! So, by their actions, they are saying he is right, are they not?

Maybe if the liberals in general and especially in the media spent some time thinking about what is really going on in the world instead of worrying about who is going to be offended (except Christians of course, they couldn't give a crap less if they offended a Christian) we might get somewhere with all their sheep that follow and live by their every word.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3442
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 09:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, I don't see a solution in your post. I see a "tough guy" rant. Can you do better?

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Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 311
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 10:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Stating facts is not a "tough guy" rant. More intellectual laziness Dan.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3444
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 12:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok "Tough Guy," what are you going to do with your "facts" besides rant them?

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Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 312
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 12:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Perhaps I will make others aware of the ever increasing Islamist assault on Western Civilization before it is too late. Unfortunately, I am too late to help you, for you seem to have lost your sense of awareness.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3445
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 01:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Still a rant, no plan - kinda like Bush's Folly, huh?

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No MoreYears
New Member
Username: Nomoreyears

Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 06:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just so I understand:

- Islam is the only religeon that idiots have used to justify killing.

-There are no quotes in the bible that call for death to nonbelievers.

-One Christian did something bad once.

-Nearly a billion people reacted violently to the pope's speech, proving his point.

-If we "stay the course" in Iraq eventually we'll either kill all of the terrorists, or maybe the last few will hold up a white flag and sign a peace treaty with the US saying they'll never carry out another attack.

In less than a day since my last post, the US has lost 6 more soldiers in Iraq. More than 60% of Iraqis approve of attacks on our soldiers.

This war is a catastrophic mistake, and I blame Bush for it.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3447
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 12:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"More of the same!"

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Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 314
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 04:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here is what you get when you allow your culture to be invaded by Muslims:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/05/wmuslims05.xml

Muslims love taking advantage of our "tolerant" culture. We allow them in, and they remain quiet and peaceful until they grow in number. Then they rip off their "nice mask" and show their true colors just like they have in France and The Netherlands.

And this message is to "No More Years" You are obviously the alter ego of someone in the forum who is too much of a coward to use their real name, so I will refuse to acknowledge your posts and this is the last response you will ever get from me.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3450
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 04:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I bid genocide as an opener to rid the world of the Islamic terror. Bob, do you have a counter offer?

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Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 315
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 04:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, you really wanna kill you some Muslims don'tcha?
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3451
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 05:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No, I want to see what kind of action you would tolerate to solve the Moslum problem." All I see from you is a rant that is getting close to hate. What do you propose to do about this problem? Little Bush's answer - "More of the Same" does not seem to be bringing much "Progress."

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Ned Buntline
Intermediate Member
Username: Ned_buntline

Post Number: 289
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 06:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, I'm curious. Leaving Bush and his boogymen out of the equation, what would you personally suggest we do to confront this problem with Islamic Fascism?

And please, no bomb throwing like putting it back on my lap with "genocide" or "more of the same" or Islamic Fascism is a Rove invention." I'm really interested in what you think needs to be done to realistically address this. I've not read this part of the forum much, but what I have read, I see alot of criticism, but very little hard solution.

Once again, I understand you think Bush has screwed this up. Let's say for a moment that the Democrats take Congress in November and impeach Bush. What now? Make friends with Islamic Militants? Become Islamic? Negotiate? Pretend the problem doesn't exist?

What?
 

Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 316
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 08:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This ought to be good...
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3453
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 08:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

First, Bush has ruined any and all the choices that might approach "good."

I am afraid that we will just have to pull back from that part of the world until the fanaticism, some of which we inadvertently aggravated, overheats and dissipates. We need to deprive the fanatics reasons to lash out at us and this is probably best done by avoiding them. Military efforts are probably the worst method imaginable for accomplishing this goal and should be reserved for extreme situations.

This week this conflict got real personal for my family. Already my youngest cousin was wounded in Iraq. Our youngest son, 17, has evidently been talking to recruiters at school. Who wants to be the last to die for a mistake?

There you go, Bob, a great big target for you to take shots at! Perhaps you should consider writing a plan yourself?

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Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 317
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 08:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan,

Islamo-Fascists are the school-yard bullies of the world. You do not defeat a bully by ignoring him. If we were to cut-and-run like you suggest, we would only embolden the Islamo-Fascists and they will claim it as a victory.

Case-in-point: Israel just pounded the dog-squeeze out of Lebanon in response to Hezbollah incursions and immediately pulled out in response to wrong-headed international pressure. What was the result? Hezbollah claimed victory!

Nobody ever said it was going to be easy, but we are holding a wolf by the ears. We don't feel like we have the strength to hold on, but we certainly don't want to let go.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3454
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 09:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Remember what I said. Little Bush has blown all the good alternatives. We have now only the bad to pick from. "More of the same" has given us a wolf to hold that is getting bigger, meaner and attracting other wolves. The only light at the end of the tunnel is the reflection off Bush's eyes.

When we "cut and run," not if, the fanatics will claim victory and it will embolden them. That will be the price we will have to pay for Bush's Folly - pure and simple. His effort has put us way back in living in a peaceful world and it will take decades to get back to sanity.

I dearly hope that I am very wrong about this, but I am very fearful that I am right.

So, Bob, is your plan "More of the same?"

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Ned Buntline
Intermediate Member
Username: Ned_buntline

Post Number: 290
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 10:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, I hope your cousin is recovering. His service and sacrifice has not gone un-noticed. Getting hurt or killed for an ill-advised endeavor is not new to me. I was wounded as a service member in an ill-advised move by a DEMOCRAT president in 1980.

I think you may have a bit of confusion as to what drives Islamism. This problem is not new. Leaving their lands is not their primary motive. Forceable conversion and world monotheism is what drives the Islamist. Ahamdinejad, Zawahiri, Bin Laden, and Khamenei have all outright stated this. Pulling away will only embolden them. Would you have suggested the same when Hitler tore through Europe?

In the 90s, we were "pulled back." It didn't stop the first World Trade Center bombing. It didn't stop the embassy bombings in Kenya. It didn't stop the attacks in Riyadh, and it didn't stop the bombing of the Cole (among numerous other little-reported attacks worldwide). These attacks, by the way, were executed during a time when we essentially allied with and fought on the side of the Muslims in Bosnia. You would of thought we would have received a bit of good will at least for that.

This is a problem that will need to be confronted. So far, we've made no real effort to truly do what needs to be done - whether by previous Democrat administrations, or current Republicans.

(Message edited by Ned Buntline on October 05, 2006)
 

Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 320
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 11:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"My plan" is certainly not cut-and-run.

I am sorry that your cousin was wounded. Nobody wants to see our boys get hurt or killed. I too have had people I know wounded and killed by terrorists. My boss's son was wounded by an IED and lost partial vision in his eye and a good friend of my wife's was widowed as a result of the Battle of Mogadishu in 1993 (Black Hawk Down). She has since re-married, but there is a little boy (now a teenager) who will never know his father.

After the Battle of Mogadishu, Clinton decided that we should cut-and-run because he felt the public did not have the stomach to have our boys stick it out and finish the job of disarming the tribal factions. By doing this he made sure that the 17 men killed there died in vain. If we pull out of Iraq and leave it as is, we will have 2,700+ soldiers killed in vain. Is that what you want Dan? Just so you can demonize Bush and blame him for their deaths?

Al-Qaeda cites the Battle of Mogadishu as an example that the USA is merely a paper tiger and once our boys get hurt, we will cut-and-run to avoid getting our noses bloodied. We tried your plan already Dan, and it only brought us more terror and more resolve from Al-Qaeda and their sympathizers.

I may not know what the answer is, but I know what it is not.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3455
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 12:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ned, my cousin will probably lose sight in his right eye. His commander was killed.

If what you say about Islam is true, I am afraid that genocide is the only military solution and I mean that. I don't want that, but there can be no half measures to such a severe problem. I believe that fanatisim will burn out in time if not aggrivated.

What is your plan, Ned?

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Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3456
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 12:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Battle of Mogadishu" Well do you remember 231 Marines in Beirut? Perhaps you don't. Reagan invaded a little island nation the next week while the rest of the US forces bugged out.

" If we pull out of Iraq and leave it as is, we will have 2,700+ soldiers killed in vain. "

How many men would you, Bob, allow to die to make sure that 2700 men did not die in vain?

"I may not know what the answer is, but I know what it is not."

How about "more of the same?" That is Little Bush's plan and so far it has given us negative progress with nobody predicting improvement, not even the little guy himself. He quit using the "P" word for fear of looking even dumber than he normally does.

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Ned Buntline
Intermediate Member
Username: Ned_buntline

Post Number: 291
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 12:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No one in modern times would enact my plan, Dan.

As I mentioned in a previous thread, only unconditional surrender ends conflict. Anything else leads to low-level war, insurgency, guerilla, or civil war. Without the idea of war with unconditional surrender as its goal, we should never have gone into Iraq. I'm not against us going in the first place, but I am against us not committing to what should have been total war against the Islamic world. Never before in our history have we sat on our hands and let ourselves be attacked for decades and not do anything to end it once and for all. Rather than nation building, we should have taken Iraq, and used it as a staging area for attacks against Iran, Syria, Pakistan, and the Saudi penninsula. The war plan should have been indiscriminate - as it was in WWII, until the other side surrendered unconditionally.

Sounds harsh? Maybe so. But war sucks. ...And sometimes they are necessary. This one eventually will be - and in my mind is well past due.

This may sound awful, but the two worse things to happen to peace in this world are the United Nations and the Geneva Convention. Both prevent nations from committing to unconditional warfare, and have turned our military efforts into politically correct nightmares. The United Nations gives haven to thugs, dictators, and supporters of terrorism to supress their peoples and attack others while dragging out faux peace efforts. The Geneva Conventions ties the hands of nations to respond in kind to horrendous attacks by those who don't subscribe to the conventions and have no plans to ever do so. Both prevent the notion of unconditional surrender - as warfare can never reach the level where unconditional surrender becomes a necessity. As a result, war goes underground - and civilians become its primary target rather than its collateral. Also as a result, war lasts forever. Look at any longterm conflict in the world today. Who suffers the most? Soldiers? No.

Will anyone subscribe to my plan? Not these days. But it was a plan that worked with every major conflict ever fought in the world to date. And the only plan that ever led to lasting peace.

(Message edited by Ned Buntline on October 06, 2006)
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3457
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 01:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ned, please give us some details of your concept of invading Iraq. I can see the urge to use WWII as an example is strong, but even I am having a hard time seeing an application to Iraq - short of genocide that is.

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Ned Buntline
Intermediate Member
Username: Ned_buntline

Post Number: 292
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 01:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, I'm not going to get dragged into your bomb-throwing with "genocide" and the like.

Suffice it to say that my idea of invading Iraq is no different than our invasion of Iwo Jima, the Philipines, Guadalcanal, the Solomon Islands, France, North Africa, etc. etc. You take land to gain a base of operations to continue conquest to ultimate surrender. It's the way war is made. You are only as powerful as your line of supply. Just ask the Germans who invaded Russia in 1941.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3459
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 01:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well bluster can be fun!

Ned, can you answer the question the Republicans keep asking the Democrats, "What would you do now?"

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Ned Buntline
Intermediate Member
Username: Ned_buntline

Post Number: 293
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 01:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don't you have pigeons to race? Jeez, you're exhausting. It's bad enough that my Redwings just got clobbered tonight in the season opener. Now I've got a headache. I'm gonna go to bed.

We'll solve the problems of the world another time.



nighty-night
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3460
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 02:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"The Dow Jones Industrial Average ended the day today at a record setting all-time high of $11,727.34.

I blame Bush! "

Considering that the record broken was established during the Clinton adminstration six years ago, Bush might deserve some blame.

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Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 321
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 02:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice try, but the bubble actually burst before Bush took office.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3461
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 02:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Still, six years to recover????? What an economic wonder!

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No MoreYears
New Member
Username: Nomoreyears

Post Number: 11
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 06:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Since 9/21/2001 (the lowest point directly following the attacks) the Dow has returned just about 5%. From the period between 1/21/1993 when Clinton took office until 9/21/2001 (8 months after he left office), the Dow still returned about 11%. Should we even talk about the great idea of turning a budget surplus into a record deficit? I thought not.

As far as the "war on terror" goes, the war in Iraq is a great illustration of why military tactics can't work against this enemy. The only solution is to get the moderate Muslims to reject the factions that choose to use terrorism to achieve their goals. Unfortunately, this mess in Iraq has done just the opposite. I agree that there aren't any good solutions to this war, but I think staying the course is the worst solution.

For starters, the US should prosecute the people responsible for getting us into this mess. Whether the next step is to secure the borders and start an orderly withdrawal, or the addition of a few hundred thousand more troops to finish the job (whatever that means), that would be up to the next president.

2,737
 

ben hackbarth
New Member
Username: Hackbarth

Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 03:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ned,

"The war plan should have been indiscriminate - as it was in WWII, until the other side surrenders [sic] unconditionally. "

i can't even begin to understand how this makes any sense at all. one of the problems with dealing terrorists in the last 40 years is that they are not always directly allied with a sovern government and, if they are, toppeling the supporting state will not topple the terrorist sect. you destroy their safe haven and, after a couple of years, they return. al la afghanistan...

since terrorists are not a government per say (most importantly, in terms of organization and enforcement of war and peace), who will sign the surrender on behalf of the ``muslims'' aboard a USS warship or rail car? why would an "unconditional surrender" from some leader have the same outcome (peace) as the surrender of the axis nations in WWII, which they subsequently enforced?

were not dealing with governments here... this makes no sense.

ben
 

ben hackbarth
New Member
Username: Hackbarth

Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 03:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

on this whole thread (any sadly, many others in W.E.) several loud individuals keep pushing the notion that islam is the problem.

to smear a whole religion is racest and its disgusting and Muslims around the world are very insulted (and not only Muslims, but people who care about equality).

there are 8 million Muslims in the US who aren't terrorists - so whats the deal, are they just impostors? if you guys think that Muslims are only those who are violent, then better think of a new term, cause its wrong. islamo-facists seems to be the concervative alternative of choice....
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3480
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 12:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

" who will sign the surrender on behalf of the ``muslims'' aboard a USS warship or rail car?"

Ships and rail cars are so old fashioned. Next time we use an executive jet or a limo.

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Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 328
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 07:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ben,

If you want to be taken serious, at the very least, learn how to use your spell checker.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1279
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 08:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well Ben, if the non-terrorist Muslims would spend a little LESS time being offended by people calling it what it is and a little MORE time being offended by their brethren who are giving them a bad name we might get somewhere.

As the now-infamous statement by Abdel Rahman al-Rashed goes: "It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims."
 

No MoreYears
New Member
Username: Nomoreyears

Post Number: 14
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 12:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"If you want to be taken serious, at the very least, learn how to use your spell checker."

Bold words from the guy who wrote "witheld", "desparate", "opressive", "pedophelia" and "legitamate".

Yours truly,

The guy who wrote "religeon".

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