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Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz

Post Number: 510
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 03:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I loved the debate tonite.....,but where were the questions about immigration?

Brewzz}
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5932
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 03:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

She didn't flame out and crash.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9306
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 09:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

They both performed reasonably well, and they were more personable than McCain and Obama, who really seemed to dislike each other in the first debate.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 1886
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 10:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah Dan, "She didn't flame out and crash." The liberal echo chamber spent the last few weeks lowering everyone's expectations regarding how well Palin would do against Biden. Your comment underscores this point beautifully. I think that tactic has back-fired on the libs. Palin is not the dumb hick they think she is.

I watched the debate and decided not to do another play-by-play (you're welcome) and again, neither candidate had any slam-dunk arguments or gotcha moments. But I have to give the edge on this one to Palin by a margin of 55 to 45. You should expect the poll numbers start to shift back toward the McCain-Palin ticket the next few days.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1824
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 11:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My opinion:

I scored the first 30, maybe 45, minutes all Palin. She was snappy and confident, attacking with a smile, which made Biden look bumbling and ineffectual. The way she would correct him ("The chant is actually 'Drill, Baby, Drill'") was classic. She was in command; he was on the ropes.

But somewhere in the middle, she seemed to run out of new things to say. She started repeating the same generalities, with a little more cutesy-folksy than I wanted to see in a serious debate about who's better equipped to, among other things, lead our armed forces.

Early on, she'd said, basically, "I don't feel bound by the debate rules. I'll talk about any topic I feel like, whether or not it answers the question." And, early on, it was an effective attack strategy, leaving Biden gasping as she changed topics to ones that favored her. But after a while, it just started to look evasive.

In the end, nobody cratered. (The GOP was hoping for another plagiarism moment as much as the Dems were hoping for a Tina Fey moment.) Both came across as effective speakers and dangerous enemies. But 90 minutes was about 30 minutes more than she had material for. I scored it about 55 - 45 in Biden's favor.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1825
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 11:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And, of course:

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html

They look about even in the "Twisting the Truth" department.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 1888
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 12:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Paul, it is not guys like us who are going to win the election for our candidates, it is the swing voters or undecided voters. After the debate Fox News cut over to a group of people who were undecided before the debate. The moderator asked the group who they thought won, and what they liked and disliked about what each candidate said. The group was overwhelmingly impressed with Palin. There were a few who liked Biden more, and they made good points, but in this small group of about 30 people, Palin made a more positive impression. This is one of the reasons I say "You should expect the poll numbers start to shift back toward the McCain-Palin ticket the next few days."

But as we all know, polls are notoriously inaccurate for national elections.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1826
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 12:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One more comment:

Who really cratered in the debate? The moderator, Ifill. She had to be the worst moderator I've ever seen. She was completely ineffectual, ceding control over time and topic, which are the only two responsibilities she has. She would scold the candidates with "You didn't answer the question; we'll get back to that." But then she didn't follow through, so she lost credibility. Any "nutless monkey" (thank you, Tom Cruise) can read questions. I hope I never see her moderate a debate again.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 1889
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 12:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

She may have been worried about being percieved as partisan with all the talk of her up-coming book about black politicians. Maybe she stifled herself to ensure she didn't come off as being in the tank for Obama. I have to admit, I was watching for bias and saw none. Maybe you wanted some bias and didn't get it?
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1827
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 12:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> "You should expect the poll numbers start to shift back toward the McCain-Palin ticket the next few days."

Hmmm. We'll see. The insta-polls (granted, even more inaccurate than other national election polls) don't look good for a McCain-Palin bounce:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/03/debate.poll/index.html

Note especially:

"On the question of the candidates' qualifications to assume the presidency, 87 percent of those polled said Biden is qualified and 42 percent said Palin is qualified."

Those aren't good numbers for Palin.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1828
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 12:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No, Bob, I didn't want Ifill to be biased. But I did expect her to exert some sort of control over the procedings. It's not supposed to be a free-for-all. Compare her performance with Lehrer's in the first Pres debate. She didn't look good.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5934
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 01:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"After the debate Fox News cut over to a group of people who were undecided before the debate. The moderator asked the group who they thought won, and what they liked and disliked about what each candidate said. The group was overwhelmingly impressed with Palin."

I saw that. They sounded like a cheaply produced commercial for a diet program or something.
 

Skotrat
Advanced Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 793
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 01:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ahem....

FOX NEWS....










JUMBO SHRIMP
 

HEU Brewer
Intermediate Member
Username: Heu_brewer

Post Number: 416
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 02:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

According to Palin a Union Civil War general (General McClellan) is now in charge of the troops in Afghanistan.

Does that mean he gets a second pension?

Palin = "empty suit"
 

HEU Brewer
Intermediate Member
Username: Heu_brewer

Post Number: 417
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 02:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Unfortunatley Paul, it is my understanding that was the debate "format" that was agreed to ahead of time. Basically a series of stump speaches with a litle back and forth.

The reason why Palin did not fall flat on her face was due to the fact that she was never pressed for an answer to a question, nor did she answer questions that she did not like. The times in the past she has faltered is when she has been pressed for more detailed answers to questions.

Even when she kept repeating that a Civil War general for the Union Army was in charge of Afghanistan neither Biden nor Ifill corrected her. If Biden had then it would have been taken as condesending.

A VP candidate who does not know who the current commanding generals are is just plain scary.

Again she is an empty suit but I guess that is what we now expect our national leaders to be.

(Message edited by HEU_Brewer on October 03, 2008)
 

davidw
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 1866
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 03:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

After the debate Fox News cut over to a group of people who were undecided before the debate.

What I found interesting about that, other than the fact it was held at the Anheuser-Busch headquarters, was that the group was split 50/50, half had voted for Bush and the other half voted for Gore four years ago.

And Dan: while it may have sounded like a cheaply produced commercial to you, (sounded like Americans voicing their opinions to me), you obviously *were* watching it! I can't help but wonder why you were watching Fox News?!? You're a closet Bill O'Reilly fan, aren't you?

 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5936
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 04:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I hate commercials and am a violent channel surfer.

It sounded like Americans voicing highly rehearsed opinions - like a "get rich quick at home" commercial.
 

Paul Erbe
Senior Member
Username: Perbe

Post Number: 1240
Registered: 05-2001
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 04:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was unimpressed equally.

Palin did nothing but follow her script and come across folksy.

Biden seemed very much like an entrenched politician.

I only saw the first 40 minutes so I could watch the Cubs have the regularly scheduled Cub moment. I retrospect I should have just read a good book.
 

davidw
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 1869
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 04:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You must have flipped to the Clinton News Network, Dan. Because it didn't sound at all rehearsed. But then, people hear what they want, don't they?
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6976
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 04:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, I saw the Fox focus group, but I also saw interviews with several other focus groups, too. I don't know how many you looked at, but overall the swing was towards Biden. In one group of about 20, they were asked who they thought was going to win the election and about 17 of them said Obama. When asked who they were going to vopte for, 4 or 5 each said Obama or McCain. So in that group, regardless of their affiliations or preferences, they thought Obama would win. Interesting...During the debate, CNN was showing moment by moment polling of the debate, broken down between male and female uncommitted voters. It was very interesting to see how Biden jumped in favorability when he talked about Obama's plan for Iraq and how Palin instantly tanked when she accused Biden of waving a white flag.
 

davidw
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 1870
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 04:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You have to remember, though, Denny, those were uncommitted *Ohio* voters. Key word being *Ohio*.

What really turned me off about the whole things was the "he said-she said" crap that was going on. It just goes to show you that you can spin a senators vote, something they said on a particular topic in a particular context, etc, to use it as a way to make your opponent look like the bad guy. Politics as usual in the good old USA.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6978
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 05:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Didn't know that David, and I'm not exactly sure why it matters. That's not disingenuous, it's a sign of my naivete!

As always, Fact Check is on top of it...

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html
 

davidw
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 1873
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 06:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My point was that the polling by CNN was just one state and not a nation-wide group of uncommitted voters. I would have given more weight to it if it had a broader geographic representation.

I'm diggin' that fact check site, Denny!
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6980
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 06:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, thanks, David. That's why I watch a lot of different channels and see different polls and then kind of average out the results. Anyone who uses only one source of information is limiting themselves.

I'm working my way through the fact check.....
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1829
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 06:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I loved the fact that Palin pre-referenced the fact-checkers. "Oh, well, if one of us is wrong, it will be on the internet by morning!" I wonder how it changes their gameplan to know that any real whoppers will be exposed. It doesn't seem to have eliminated the inaccuracies.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6982
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2008 - 07:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Certainly doesn't.....

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