FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  no more syrup (Garland O Burton)
  33? (Theodore B. Samsel)
  Mead Digest (Michael D. Galloway)
  Brewpubs in Atlanta area? ("John DeCarlo")
  Good chocolate beer, but... (Karl F. Bloss)
  BAA/Thomas Hardy's Ale/Maple (Michael D. Galloway)
  request for extract information (Dan `Stout' Wiesen)
  yeasts (KLIGERMAN)
  Great Englis Pub (dean goulding)
  Fridges,Maple syrup and long lost beer (Nick Zentena)
  Refrigerators (Phillip Seitz)
  re:  recipe request (maple) (Eric M. Mrozek)
  Found Beer (Matt Downs)
  re: Rolling Rocks #33 (Eric Conrad)
  >Rolling Rocks #33 (Andy Rowan)
  Re: Found Beer (Jeff Benjamin)
  3rd annual March Mashfest (AHA sanctioned competition) (Steve Dempsey)
  Starch Conversion Weirdness (atl)
  When to call it beer (John Freeman)
  Powdered sugar starters (John Freeman)
  Yeast type and beer style (Lee Menegon)
  Combating skunky beer/CBC's Legacy Red Ale/Old Raspberry Wheat (korz)
  A Modest Proposal/Irish Ales/Snobs (Jeff Frane)
  mash vs extract (John Freeman)
  Micah's PS Starters ("John Cotterill")
  simons and beer (Scott Murphy)
  Refrigerators (The Cat In The Hat)
  yeast (XLPSJGN)
  Re: yeast starters (McHarry)
  starters - DME versus extract syrup (Peter Maxwell)
  Rolling Rock #33 (Richard_Ahrens)


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		IMPORTANT NEWS -- PLEASE READ
		-----------------------------

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 1:34:24 EST
From: Garland O Burton <gburton at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: no more syrup

i am at the stage of omitting the 4lb can of syrup in my recipes
and using all dry malt extract and hop pellets for the first time.

the recipe was:
 
4lb stout syrup (w/hop and roast barley extracts) i have heard that 
this does not ferment efficently

3lb dry malt extract
1/2lb dark roast barley (steeped)
and most recently the addition of 1/2lb flaked barley.  first i steeped
at end of boil with dark roast, then on next batch boiled 10 min and strained 
milky soup into wort.

at first i was using dry yeast.
the last 2 batches used yeast from local brewpub yeast harvest.

the boil was 15 min.  primary less than a week.  secondary more than a week.
i can tell (luck?) when it's time to act.

i just got a hydrometer and the og was 1.042 on the last batch.  it is still
in the secondary.

my (5) batches have all tasted ok, (great compared to store bought)
but i want to use all dry malt extract and hop pellets.  i do stout,
and am thinking of moving to pale ale (bitter) next.

what is the proper amount of dme to use.  6lb?  dark dme is all i have 
ever used.  i was told that i could use 7lb light malt extract and 2 lb
"black patent."  is that unmalted stuff to steep like i do the dark roast?

i think the action of the brewpub yeast has spoiled me as far as ever using 
dry yeast again so i will probably use liquid irish ale yeast in future.

i haven't tasted the brewpub yeast batches yet, but i think i will be 
pleasantly surprised.  

what kind of hop pellets, and what kind of boil times will i want for
my new, unknown recipe?  i don't know what flavor hops are good for
which brews, but i am sure there is the obvious hop and procedure for 
the stout/porter i am trying to brew.  

can i grow decent hops in mid ohio?

sorry for all the ?s but i have been reading dozens of hbd's and this 
is my first post.  thanks for replies and all of your posts to peruse 
in the last couple of months.

cheers!

gob!


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Date: Friday, February 19, 1993  06:35:06
From: TBSAMSEL at qvarsa.er.usgs.gov (Theodore B. Samsel)
Subject: 33?


  I was at a VietNamese restaurant for the Lunar NewYear, chowing
down on some cha giaou and Singha when Nguyen, the owner said he was out
out of Singha....well, I said "I'll try a 33 (bammitybam)"...
  When I got it, I looked at the label and the volume was 330 ml or
11.2 oz. Is the 33 from 330ml or 33cl..volumetrically speaking??
~~~~
Re: all grain...I'll do it when my kids move out and i have an 8-12
hour block of time to spare........
  Not lazy, just busyier than a onearmed paperhanger with an itch.
  Regards,

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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1993 07:46:17 -0500
From: mgx at ornl.gov (Michael D. Galloway)
Subject: Mead Digest

For what its worth, here is the address of the mead digest (I haven't 
gotten any mead digests lately either).

        mead-lovers at nsa.hp.com

Michael D. Galloway
mgx at ornl.gov

Living in the WasteLand


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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 08:22:30 EST
From: "John DeCarlo" <jad at pegasus.mitre.org>
Subject: Brewpubs in Atlanta area?

I found Georgia Brewing brewpub in the last list I have.  Any other 
recommendations or updates?  E-mail, please.  Thanks in advance.

Fidonet: 1:109/131   Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org

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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 08:43:20 -0500
From: blosskf at ttown.apci.com (Karl F. Bloss)
Subject: Good chocolate beer, but...

My first batch with chocolate malt matured yesterday, so I had some friends
over and generally it's a yummy beer.  However, I still have that slight, 
annoying cidery taste.  I did add about 150g of sugar beet molasses besides
the malt extract and coarsely ground chocolate malt.  Is it perhaps too 
refined of a sugar and adds mostly alcohol and not much flavor?  Other 
suggestions?

 -Karl
(blosskf at ttown.apci.com)



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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1993 08:46:05 -0500
From: mgx at ornl.gov (Michael D. Galloway)
Subject: BAA/Thomas Hardy's Ale/Maple

Comments from a previous digest:

>>BadAssAstronomer writes:
>> >     The Jan 93 selections were; Mass Bay Brewing Winter Warmer and
>> >     Fisher Brewing Dark Ale.
>>
>>We tasted these yesterday at the brewclub meeting.  "Dark Ale" is a
>>misnomer.  This stuff was sort of copper colored.  I'd say it's at the
>>dark end of the pale ale spectrum.  The flavor was nothing to get
>>excited about, either.
>>
>>The Mass Bay Winter Warmer, on the other hand was excellent.  Nicely
>>spiced, but not overwhelming.  So many spiced beers have a sort of
>>sour flavor, but this does not.  Our meeting was outside at a local
>>park, and I'd say that the Winter Warmer lived up to its name.

Brian Bliss responding to these comments writes: 

[snip]
>I loved the Dark Ale.  The following is palate-subjective, but it
>seemed to have just enough diacetyl without seeming stale to taste
>good (not that a beer needs diacetyl, but this one used it to its
>flavor advantage, as do Smith's and (possibly too much) Young's). 
 
I liked the dark ale too, and I thought the color was very nice.  Nice
malty flavor.

and BB says:

>
>On the subject of staleness, try comparing a bottle of 1992 Thomas
>Hardy's to a 1991 version...
>

Sure wish we could get Thomas Hardy's here in the WasteLand (read 
beer envy here!).

On the subject of maple beers:  I was cooking up a favorite ham steak
with maple syrup/mustard sauce in January.  While in the kitchen, I 
happened to be quaffing a few bottles of the Winter Warmer.  All of 
a sudden I had maple syrup in one hand and empty beer glass in the other:
seeking, as always, oral gratification I poured a tablespoon or two 
of syrup into the glass and then poured a fresh Winter Warmer on top:
the result was fantastic! Great maple flavor and the sweetness really
seemed to complement the spicy flavor.  I've tried maple syrup in pale 
ales, other ales, and porter now but liked it best in the Winter
Warmer and pretty good in the porter.

Just another date point.

Michael D. Galloway
mgx at ornl.gov

Living in the WasteLand


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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 09:08:45 EST
From: WIESEN at VAX2.DNET.ICD.Teradyne.COM (Dan `Stout' Wiesen)
Subject: request for extract information

In regards to the `dead horse' thread started by Steve Tollefsrud,
how about providing extract brewers with information and 
characteristics of malt extract?  

In my college days, my friends and I were extract brewers.  Being
major geeks (RPI), we didn't bat an eye at massaging variables like
hops (plugs, pellets, whole, centennial, saaz, boiling, finishing),
adjuncts (crystal, black patent, brown sugar, molasses, cocoa, 
ginger, spruce, oats) and yeast (dry, liquid, ale, lager).  But 
when it came to malt, we didn't get much beyond the questions of
amber/dark? and syrup/dry?  We stayed away from hopped extracts,
preferring even as novices to control this.

One of the reasons all grain brewing is extolled is for the ability 
to get your hands on more of the variables in the brewing process 
and tweaking them to your satisfaction.  Similarly, one of the 
reasons extract brewing gets panned is due to the _lack_ of control 
of the extract.  Well, let's put the collective wisdom of the HBD 
to work and give extract brewers the ability to have this control.

What I suggest is that people submit entries to me with the 
following information:

BRAND:
FORM:	(syrup/dry)
	- the percentage fermentable would be helpful for syrup
COLOR:	(light, amber, dark)
	- perhaps an equivalent to the lovibond scale?
HOPS:	(hopped/unhopped)
	- the name of the hops and the IBUs
SUGAR PROFILE:	(percent of sugar from malt, percent of sugar
		from other sources such as wheat, corn or cane)
UNFERMENTABLES:	(are there proteins, starches or other 
		unfermentables present that may affect body,
		mouthfeel or head retention)
OTHER:	(distinguishing characteristics such as roast barley,
	which would be appropriate for stouts, noticable tannin
	astringency, or perhaps the oxidized funk of wet
	cardboard)

Being a longtime reader (since #4xx, yet infrequent poster), I
vaguely remember a mention of a comparative study of malts
conducted by a Saskatchewan (yea, my home province) university.
I also vaguely remember some difficulty in obtaining the results
of that study.  This seems like it would be an excellent place to
start.  Does anyone remember the details better?  Does anyone know
where this post is in the archives?

Dan Wiesen

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Date: 19 Feb 1993 09:29:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: KLIGERMAN at herlvx.rtpnc.epa.gov
Subject: yeasts

Looking through my yeast packages I noted that I had Wyeast 1214 (Belgium-
Barleywine Ale) and a dry Koenig Whitbread Lager yeast.  Does anyone have 
any informaion on the flavor profiles|, characteristics, opinions, etc. on
these.  Also, people ask about using old yeast.  I have found some Danish
2042 yeast that I collected from a secondary on 9/17/91 and stored in
about 25 ml of fermented wort in my refrigerator sinnce then.  I'm in
the process of starting it up again and let you know the results.  I've
done this before with yeast stored up to a year with excellent results,
but this should be a record (17 months)!!
- -----
Subj: refrigerator

A recent post asks about small refregerators (PSEITZ at MCIMAIL.COM).  I found
it easier and cheaper to purchase a small freezer and put a hunter controller
on it.  They usually go for less than $150.  Just make sure you can fit a 
carboy inside.

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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 10:07:21
From: okra%genesis.uucp at gte.com (dean goulding)
Subject: Great Englis Pub


When we got the chance to fly Virgin Atlantic for $93 ea. way, we jumped.
Don't let the weather in the UK in Jan. scare you - just keep close
to your CAMRA Good Beer Guide!  

It was our 4th of 7 days in England and we were heading south from the
county of Norfolk in East Anglia towards Oxford.  As it was getting late,
we detoured off the A47 to the town of Wisbech.  We couldn't see any
B&B signs but we did find a Real Ale pub from the Good Beer Guide and
thought that would be a good place to ask.  Thus we entered
The Rose Tavern freehouse in Wisbech.

They had just opened  at  5:30 and there were already 3 or so gents at the 12
seat bar.  We ordered Woodford's Wherry Best Bitter (OG 1.039 ABV 4%) and
asked about places to stay in the area.  Graham appeared from the back room
and set about to helping us find a room.  A call to the Marmin Hotel,
his first choice, proved them full.  So he asks 'Who's driving?'.  I
answered that I was and he say's 'Come on.  We'll go get you a room at
a good rate'.  So I left my wife at the bar and headed out to explore Wisbech
with the local publican.  At his direction, I drove around the town stopping
at two hotels that he declared 'too expensive', the Marmin again 
'Just to check', and ended up at the Orchard Hotel (which came complete 
with Basil and Sybil - but that's another story).  He also gave me an 
impromptu historical tour and showed me the Elgoods Brewery in town telling 
me to go in and 'tell 'em you came from America for a tour!'.

We returned to the Rose.  As I sat down one gent asks 'So you work with
computers?' and a second chimes in 'And make your own beer?'!  Patty
had been having quite a chat!  Over pints of Butterknowle's Conciliation
Ale (1.042, 4.2%) I got to know the folks who seemed to know me so well.
Graham was starting us collecting bar coasters (of which he has quite a
collection) by the time we tried Morrells Varsity (1.041, 4.3%).

All made us feel as welcome as we've ever been!  Sensing my curiosity about
Real Ale, Graham gave us a cellar tour (his cellar trousers are the butt
of the locals jokes), showed us where he has his beer festival in the summer
complete with live music and dancing, and gave us a copy of all the Real
Ale literature he could find.

We returned after dinner for the Everards Tiger Best Bitter (1.041, 4.2%)
and the best beer of the trip, Cains Formidible Ale (1.048, 5.1%) -
smooth, tasty and sneaky!

We consider ourselves fortunate to be adopted by Graham and the Rose Tavern
folks.  If you're ever anywhere near England, GO!  Best, freshest and most
diverse Real Ales (and conversation!) on our trip!

The Rose Tavern freehouse
53 North Bank (on the river)
Wisbech
tel (0945) 588335

Dean Goulding  (okra at genisis.nred.ma.us)

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Date: 	Fri, 19 Feb 1993 10:06:34 -0500
From: Nick Zentena <zen%hophead at canrem.com>
Subject: Fridges,Maple syrup and long lost beer

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 19:29 GMT
From: Phillip Seitz <0004531571 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Refrigerators


>In one of those saint-like gestures sometimes made by
>spouses of homebrewers, my wife has given me permission to
>look for a refrigerator I could use for brewing.
>(Presumably this would be used in a conjunction with a
>Hunter Airstat or similar device).

>The problem--and the reason for her saintliness--is that our
>house is quite small, and there is absolutely no
>inconspicuous place to put a fridge.  We will have to live

        How about a different idea. Paint/wallpaper it to
        match the room. A local micro used to have some old
        style fridges painted in the brewery colours with the
        logo. They looked quite nice. You could do something
        to make it fit the room.

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 15:43:25 PST
From: mrozek at gandalf.etdesg.TRW.COM (Eric M. Mrozek)
Subject: re:  recipe request (maple)

>Jon,  in answer to your request:

>Mark and I brewed the maple ale on Labor Day so I don't recall the details of
>the recipe.  I'll pull out my logbook when I get home tonight and give you
>the actual recipe tomorrow.

>If I remember right, we used half a quart of dark amber maple syrup.  The end
>result was a pretty dry beer with a thin body.  I really liked it even though
>it didn't turn out like we intended (a maple flavored PALE ALE).  The maple
>flavor was definitely there, but you can bend your brain trying to imagine what
>maple syrup tastes like without the sugur.

        A local micro [Niagra Falls Brewing] makes a maple
        syrup beer. It is very maple like. It's also fairly
        expensive. Most of this brewery's products are on
        the high side in terms of alcohol. This is no
        exception. I think 7+%volume. There is no doubt that
        there is maple in this beer. I'd hate to guess how
        much syrup is in there.


        BTW the stout they produce is also very nice.



Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 09:26:46 EST
From: mattd at software.pulse.com (Matt Downs)
Subject: Found Beer

>All Homebrewers:

>Recently, I found a raspberry wheat beer in a fermenter that I forgot about.
>Please no flames--I know "stupid"!  Any way, it is about 7 months old and the
>air lock appears to still be intact.  What I was wondering is if any one has
>had an experience like this and what did they do?  Did you bottle it any way?
>Did it turn out ok?  How might have using fruit changed this?



        A couple of weeks ago I bottled a raspberry
        puesdo-lambic(k). It had spent 5+months on the
        fruit. 5months could be considered rushing it-). I'd
        say go ahead and bottle it. Mine had a great
        raspberry aroma to it.

        Nick

*****************************************************************************
I drink Beer I don't collect cute bottles!
zen%hophead at canrem.com
*****************************************************************************

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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 10:56:45 -0500
From: Eric Conrad <conrad at merl.com>
Subject: re: Rolling Rocks #33

There are 33 words on the back of a Rolling Rock bottle. 
Count 'em.

I know this is the reason for the "33" because on the back
of a bottle of Rolling Rock Light, it doesn't say "Rolling
Rock Light" (that'd be 34 words), but "Rock Light."  The 
back of the bottles said "Premium Light" when the light beer 
was first released (also 33 words). 

                          ...Eric

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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 11:35:08 EST
From: rowan at urban.rutgers.edu (Andy Rowan)
Subject: >Rolling Rocks #33

Michael Lobo writes:
  >I saw this question posted a few weeks ago, and never saw a response -
  >does anyone know what the 33 on the Rolling Rock label REALLY stands for?

Well, the story I heard is that it's the number of *words* on the label,
including their cute little slogan that's printed on the back of the
label and read through the glass.  Either that or the number of words
just in the cute little slogan, I can't remember...

Anyway, this is just as unlikely to be the real reason as any other
you'll hear, but it does happen to be true.  That is, there ARE 33 words...

=================================================================
| Andy Rowan                         | You don't know what I'm  |
| Cook College Remote Sensing Center |   talking about?  Don't  |
| Rutgers University                 |   worry, everyone tells  |
| rowan at ocean.rutgers.edu            |   me I don't either.     |
| (908) 932-9631                     |                          |
=================================================================

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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 9:50:20 MST
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Found Beer

> Recently, I found a raspberry wheat beer in a fermenter that I forgot
> about.  Please no flames--I know "stupid"!  Any way, it is about 7
> months old and the air lock appears to still be intact.  What I was
> wondering is if any one has had an experience like this and what did
> they do?  Did you bottle it any way?  Did it turn out ok?  How might
> have using fruit changed this?

The general consensus, I believe, is that you should let your nose and
tastebuds be the judge.  Fermented beer can last quite a long time in
the secondary if kept from contact with air.  If it still tastes and
smells good, then it's good, and you can bottle it without worry.

In fact, I brewed a cherry wheat beer recently that I left in the
secondary (or perhaps it was even tertiary) for three months, on
purpose.  It turned out wonderfully, and four months later it continues
to get better.  My general experience with fruit beers is that they are
extremely complex and take a lot of aging to reach their peak, so 7
months may have improved it!

- --
Jeff Benjamin                               benji at hpfcla.fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
					    - T.S. Eliot

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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 10:45:10 MST
From: Steve Dempsey <steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu>
Subject: 3rd annual March Mashfest (AHA sanctioned competition)


The Fort Collins, CO Mash Tongues will hold their 3rd annual
March Mashfest homebrew competition March 12-13, 1993.  This
AHA sanctioned event is open to all homebrewers.  Entries will
be evaluated by BJCP and other experienced judges.  All AHA
styles except cider and sake may be entered; awards will be
presented in 9 categories.  Entry fee is $3 per entry.  Deadline
for receiving entries is Tuesday, March 9.  For complete rules &
entry forms via e-mail send:

    To: netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu
    Subject: help

or if you are familiar with netlib:

    Subject: send index for mashfest


================================    Engineering Network Services
Steve Dempsey                       Colorado State University
steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu    Fort Collins, CO  80523
================================    +1 303 491 0630

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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 10:17:46 -0800
From: atl at kpc.com
Subject: Starch Conversion Weirdness

  About three nights ago, I purchased a 5 gallon igloo cooler to try
single step infusion mashes in.  I have been doing all my mashes in my
brewpot, using my kooker to add heat when neccesary.  The temperature
fluctuations were quite difficult to control.

  Anyway, I put 12.25 lbs of grain into the cooler, and added 12.25
qts of 172F water, stirred, and the temperature settled at exactly
155F, the desired temperature for this batch.  I closed the lid, and
let it sit for an hour.  At this time, I sampled a bit of liquid from
the surface and performed the iodine test for starch conversion.
There was no color change, indicating complete conversion.  Then, on a
whim, I sampled some liquid from the spigot at the bottom of the
cooler, and performed the iodine test on this as well.  The test
instantly turned jet black, indicating incomplete conversion. I
thought this might be a result of fluid in the spigot itself, so I ran
about a quart of liquid through, and tested again with the same
(incomplete conversion) results.

Note:  I had placed a stopper, short piece of plastic tubing, and a
"Mr. Tuffy" sink scrubber into the spigot so I could drain liquid from
the spigot cleanly.

  At this point, the temperature had dropped to about 152F, so I
drained about 1.5qts of liquid from the spigot, boiled it, and stirred
it back into the mash.  I then stirred the mash well, thinking that
maybe I had been sampling from a portion of the mash local to the Cara
Pils malt I had added. This brought the temperature back up to about
154F, and I let it sit for another hour.  I repeated the pair of tests
again with the same results.

  Now frustrated, and up past my bedtime on a weekday, I drained out
about 2 qts of liquid, boiled it, and stirred it back into the mash,
bringing the temperature up to about 158F.  I put the lid on, and went
to bed.  In the morning, the temperature had dropped to 144F, and the
test from both top and bottom indicated complete conversion.  I
sparged with my "PVC manifold in the bottom of a bucket" system, and
brewed as usual.  My extraction rate was 26.9.

Now, the questions:

1) How is it possible to have different conversion rates in different
   portions of the mash?

2) I regularly get extraction rates from 24-28.  What can I do to
   approach the magic 30 that I hear commonly in this forum.  My
   sparges usually take 1-1.5 hours, and the temperature in the lauter
   tun stays between 150F and 170F.

3) The method used above to reheat the mash seems similar to
   decoction mashing. With regards to decotion mashing:
  a) is it usual to drain and boil just liquid, or liquid and grain?
  b) doesn't this process denature the enzymes needed for conversion?
  c) is there some formula for how much of the liquid or liquid and
     grain to reboil to make a desired temperature change?

4) Are the enzymes converting the starches dissolved in the liquid, or
   bound into the starch itself?

p5) Unrelated question: Is boiling 2oz of hops for an hour the same
   as boiling 4oz for 30 minutes? In other words, in the equation for
   IBU's can you trade off boil time against total hop weight and acheive
   the same results?

	Thanks,
	  Drew

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lastly: Shut the f**k up about all grain versus extract!  Brew what
you like, how you like, when you like! If you must argue the point
further into the ground, take it OFFLINE! Phew, sorry, just had to get
that off my chest.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 12:51:44 CST
From: jlf at palm.cray.com (John Freeman)
Subject: When to call it beer

> >     If I understand the literature, about 3/4 cup of sugar/sugar
> >equivalent should be boiled in water or sterile wort, then added to
> >the contents of the secondary, cooled to the temperature of the
> >remaining 5 gal liquid (is it still called wort at this stage?),
> >bottled and conditioned as usual.
> Answers:
>         First, once the fermentation is over, its beer, carbonated or not.


My understanding is that once you pitch the yeast, you may call it beer.

John Freeman
jlf at cray.com

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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 12:54:20 CST
From: jlf at palm.cray.com (John Freeman)
Subject: Powdered sugar starters

> For a very short review, Micah advocated using powdered sugar for yeast
> starters with some Difco nutrient. His claims of greater yeast growth got
> all interested. I too have used this growth technique for a while with no
> big obvious problems.
> 

Isn't powdered sugar just sugar?  I don't understand the insistence on
using the powdered form versus the crystalline form.

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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 13:27:29 EST
From: Lee Menegon <necis!lmenegon at transfer.stratus.com>
Subject: Yeast type and beer style

I plan on developing and refining an Octoberfest recipe.  My
goal is to try to produce a Spaten Ur Marzen clone.  I realize
Jackson considers this one of the world's finest beers so I
guess I am aiming high.  I am an all grain non fart snob and 
would appreciate input on this project.
What Wyeast strain is appropriate to this style:
Bohemian, Bavarian or Munich?

At a recent club meeting a fellow brewer mentioned using the Bohemian
yeast in a Pilsner and finding his brew came out drier than a similar
 brew using the Bavarian strain.  This inspite of the published
 attenuation for the Bavarian being the greater of the two.  Any data
points on this issue?

The Munich yeast is some times refered to as "unstable" what does this
mean?  What effect does instability have with regards to culturing this
strain?

PS: I have yet to get an injunction for using the same letters
 in Boston in the name of my Brown Ale so this project will yield:
   not so Bavarian Fest Beer.   
  
- -- 

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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 13:03 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Combating skunky beer/CBC's Legacy Red Ale/Old Raspberry Wheat

Brian writes:
>The Imperial stout comes in a clear bottle and 50% of the time I
>buy it, it is light-struck (skunky).  I don't drink much of the taddy
>porter.

I read somewhere that keeping beer at around 50F (in the dark) for a few
days will cause some chemical reactions that make the light-struck (skunky)
aromas go away.  I tried it on a sixpack of severly light-struck Newcastle
Brown Ale (clear bottles) and it worked!  Perhaps some of the rest of you
could try it and see if I just lucked out or was influenced by wishful
thinking?  I'd say a bottle of Pilsner Urquell after a week or three
under fluorescent lights would be the ultimate challange.

BTW: All the Samuel Smith's beers that we get here are in clear bottles.
Frankly, I can wait till I open to look at the color.

************************

Rob writes:
>Ironically, Guy McDonnell mentioned one in the article immediately
>below AL's post!  I posted here in January about the Chicago Brewing
>Company's Legacy Irish Ale.  I find it a very tasty brew.  It is both
>darker and more bitter than Killians'.  It's brewed in Chicago, Al;
>you must have tried it.  The blurb on the bottle says Irish immigrant
>brewers brewed in this style in 19th century Chicago.  It's certainly a
>plausible tale.

Someone (was it Tony? sorry) recently speculated that perhaps Irish Ale
(in Ireland) tends towards a malty version of a Pale Ale.  This may
be true, but my recollection of CBC's Legacy Red Ale is that the balance
was definately towards bitterness as opposed to maltiness.  Perhaps
it's the Chinook they use and the Chinook bitterness "stands out" more
than an equivalent IBU of a milder hop?  So maybe all ties of Irish-American
Red Ales with Irish-Irish Ales have been long severed and the two styles
(if indeed they are styles) have diverged or perhaps have never been
related?

**********************
Matt writes:
>Recently, I found a raspberry wheat beer in a fermenter that I forgot about.
>Please no flames--I know "stupid"!  Any way, it is about 7 months old and the
>air lock appears to still be intact.  What I was wondering is if any one has
>had an experience like this and what did they do?  Did you bottle it any way?
>Did it turn out ok?  How might have using fruit changed this?

Sure, I've done it, but mine was 9 months old and I initially pitched not
only Saccharomyces, but also Brettanomyces Lambicus yeast and Pediococcus
Cerevisiae bacteria.  It was my pseudo-lambik-kriek!  The pseudo-lambik-
framboise is still in the fermenter (10 months and counting...).  I liked
the p-kriek but felt it needed more sourness and Brett character.  If you
taste yours and feel that it has developed a lactic infection which you
don't like, well then send them to me... I'll drink them!

Al.

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Date: 19 Feb 93 14:14:13 EST
From: Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com>
Subject: A Modest Proposal/Irish Ales/Snobs

<<A Modest Proposal>>

Recently, the _Homebrew_ Digest has had what seems to be an increasing
number of contributions (some very long) about people's tours through
commercial beer land.  I hasten to say that I have no problem with
people writing about the microbrews they've discovered, or how much
they loved the Pacific Northwest -- in fact I think articles like this
can be quite interesting, and I've even written a few myself.

I'm not convinced, however, that the Homebrew Digest is the right place 
for such articles. Frankly, I have a tough time plowing through the
Digest every day and wouldn't mind if it was a little shorter.  I've
also noticed that the lag time is getting pretty long, and that articles
seem to need several days now to be posted; I think this hurts the utility
of the Digest, and the flavor of almost-instant electronic response that
makes the Digest so useful for those with questions (especially
panicky questions about why "nothing's happening!").

In Usenet, there is a distinct difference between alt.beer and rec.
crafts.brewing.  People who post questions (usually beginner's) about
how to make beer on alt.beer, quickly get shuffled off to rcb.  Why
do we not have a similar division here -- and soon?

No, I don't have the means nor the knowledge to run a Beer Digest myself.
But I suspect someone else could, and that Rob wouldn't mind offering
some advice.

<<Irish Ales>>

I have a reference somewhere, not to hand, given to me by my father,
a retired food technologist.  In a book on the economic and political
impact of various seed grains there was some attention given to the
economic boycott imposed on the Irish by the British in (I believe) the
18th century in order to bring Ireland to a colonial status.  One of the
restrictions was on the importation of hops; according to the author
this resulted in the Irish switching to "porter".  The Irish have
succeeded over the years in becoming dandy smugglers, but it still appears
that not very many hops made it in to the country.  

Any "authentic" ales, then, are likely to have very low hopping rates,
and especially be lacking in the finest of finishing hops.

<<All-Grain Snobbery>>

Being primarily an all-grain brewer myself, I've watched the bickering
here with a certain alarm.  Recent converts to all-grain brewing tend to
sound much like those who just quit smoking -- there is an appalling air
of self-righteousness (except for you, of course, Jack).  A number of
people have pointed out that a good many award-winning beers are brewed
from an extract base; I have long since gotten over being surprised by
this phenomenon.  In my own experience, assuming the same quality yeast
and hops, and quality malt extract and additional grains, the real
difference comes from using a full boil.  I teach a beginning homebrew
class and brew using the "Papazian" method, more or less, having pre-
boiled the water in the carboy; I also occasionally brew an extract 
batch at home.  No matter how hard I try, the batch brewed in class is
NEVER as good as the one I brew using a large kettle and a wort chiller.

But, hell, what do I know?  I don't care what method a brewer uses; if
the beer is good and they're willing to let me drink it, what possible
difference can their process make?

- --Jeff Frane



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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 13:21:58 CST
From: jlf at palm.cray.com (John Freeman)
Subject: mash vs extract

I'd like to add my opinion to the mash vs. extract discussion.  I made
my first extract beer in several years last Sunday and I enjoyed it
thoroughly.  (I did add some home toasted malt for color/flavor.)  It
was definitely easier, and the wort was clearer than any mash I've ever
made.  I racked it last night to the secondary - it looks and tastes
wonderful.

My general rule of thumb is to mash for pale beers, and use extract for
dark beers.  Because I do believe pale beers simply come out better
when mashed.  Although I made some good pale beers using Alexander's
extract.  It seems like a waste to me to take a good home mashed wort
and cover it up with dark malts, that's why I say use extract for dark
beers.

As for having better control over the brewing process, not in my case.
Sometimes I hit the mash temperature I want, sometimes I have to adjust
it.  I never mash or boil for exactly the same amount of time each
time.  I never have exactly the same yield in gallons or points per
gallon.  And fermentation temperature control?  whatever room temp is
for ales, and basement temp for lagers.

I took the plunge into mashing over ten years ago, after twelve years of
extract brewing, and made the switch to Wyeast two years ago.  I'd say
that liquid yeast is more important in making excellent, consistent
beer than mashing.  In fact, using extract would be a better choice for
getting consistent beer than mashing.

Now I mash because I like pale beers, and since I've made the investment
in equipment, it's cheaper.  Otherwise, I'd use Alexander's malt, specialty
malts, Freshhops, and Wyeast.  And keep the stinking brown sugar out of
my beer.

John Freeman
jlf at cray.com



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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 12:54:26 PST
From: "John Cotterill" <johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com>
Subject: Micah's PS Starters
Full-Name: "John Cotterill"

I have also tried to duplicate Micah's procedure for using powerdered sugar
starters.  My results are similar to Bob's and I DID use a yeast nutirent
in the starter.  I did not do any side by side like Bob, just a normal batch
of beer with the PS starter.  My initial starter was 500ml of 1.020 powdered
sugar with a pinch of yeast nutrient.  After two days I fed the starter
200ml of 1.030 PS solution with additional nutrient.  A day later I brewed.
I was impressed with the quantity of slurry at the bottom of the starter.
It was about 300ml of fairly dense/cloudy material.  The yeast also 
flocculated very well (BTW it was 1056 yeast).  I poured off the clear liquid
on top, pitched the 70F starter into 70F wort and fermented at 70F.  The
OG of the wort was 1.061.  My lag time was the almost the longest that I
have recorded...almost 2 days!  I think a single package of 1056 would have
started faster.  And indead, just like Bob, the fermentation was slow and the
FG was high.  I eventually repitched with a standard 1056 DME starter and
the beer fermented out fine.

I am going to stick with the standard DME starters.  I don't think the yeast
pitch rate is as high with similar volumes of DME and PS, but the PS yeast
must get severely shocked going into the beer environment from the PS env.
A bunch of the beasties must die, and those that survive must take a while
to adjust.  

JC
johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com

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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 13:50:42 PST
From: scott at gordian.com (Scott Murphy)
Subject: simons and beer

did anyone catch the Simson's last night.

While much of the episode was neo-prohibitionist, there were a
few good parts.  The Brewery tour where they showed the taps of
Duff, Duff Lite, and Duff Dry all connected to the same pipe 
was very funny.

scott

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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 14:33:07 -0800
From: pascal at netcom.com (The Cat In The Hat)
Subject: Refrigerators


"Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 19:29 GMT
 From: Phillip Seitz <0004531571 at mcimail.com>
 Subject: Refrigerators
				.
				.
				.
"					... I am therefore
 looking for the smallest possible (presumably dorm-type)
 refrigerator that can hold a carboy with airlock.  I'll buy
 new if necessary, as I am desperate.

"Are any of you familiar with refrigerator models that are
 currently available, or were available not long ago, that
 fit this bill?"

I have a small refrigerator which is _just_ tall enough, if one takes out
all of the internal racks. The freezer is too low to allow a vapor lock,
but I can think of a couple of workarounds, including a flexible piece of
hose ( which could also lead out of the refrigerator, so that you can see
it percolating ), a hole in the freezer / refrigerator barrier, or the
removal of the freezer compartment altogether ( leaving behind the coils
on the sides and top of the refrigerator, of course ).

It's called a Welbilt, model W 555 AX. Says Welbilt is a US corporation
on the back, but it also says the refrigerator was built in Yugoslavia.
I'd _guess_ it was made in the Seventies, but refrigeration technology is
pretty stable, few or no differences between apartment refrigerators made
in the Seventies, and those made now.

It's just the right size and height to hold a small microwave oven, or
a collection of cookbooks, or a spice rack and associated materials.


- -- richard

     "It is obligatory, within the limits of capability, to commend the
      good and forbid evil."     _Kitab_Adab_al-Muridin_, by Suhrawardi

                richard childers          pascal at netcom.com

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Date:    Fri, 19 Feb 93 17:02 CST
From: XLPSJGN%LUCCPUA.BITNET at UICVM.UIC.EDU
Subject: yeast

Dear Brewers

Just a quick question here:  I recently brewed up a batch
of leftovers to make a total of 1 gal. of beer... just simply for
the hell of it.  I threw in approximately 1# dry wheat malt
and 1# dry light malt (though I suspect both were less than a full
pound, and therefore total at maybe 1.67#?).  Plus, I tossed in
1/2 oz. Tett. and another 1/2 oz Cascade hops, though I think I left
the Tett. for the finishing stages.  (For all of you exacting and
technical brewers out there, I appologize for my rather cavalier
recounting of my proceedures; I assure you, my brewing is seldom
so relaxed!  Usually, my gilrfriend leaves the house for her own
sanity when I brew!!).  I cooled the wort while also rehydrating
some ale yeast - but now here's the rub:  Such yeast is seldom
available in quantities less that what is needed for the traditional
5 gal. batch.  But I tossed it all in anyway.

The fermentation was obviously through within a day and within two
I bottled the brew.  At that time, the taste and smell reminded me of a
beach-side men's room in the summer time, without air conditioning!
(Pfew-ee!).  I'm hopeful, though.  Maybe it'll age out?
So the question is: could the large quantity of yeast (or the fact
that it was dry) lend off flavors and/or aromas to the beer?
I'm not too concerned about it over all, as this is a batch of
left-overs, but I am interested in the learning experience.

Cheers,

John

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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 17:06:06 EST
From: mcharry at freedom.otra.com (McHarry)
Subject: Re: yeast starters

Bob Jones reported on his rather disappointing results with sugar water as
a starter.  Following MM's post I tried something similar using sucrose and
yeast nutrient (just the salts, not the Difco stuff).  I was disappointed
as well.  I have thought about better additives, but came to the conclusion
wort is probably less hassle.  

Has anyone tried pressure cooked fermenter sludge as a yeast nutrient?
Intuitively it sounds like just the ticket.
John McHarry


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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1993 16:09:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Peter Maxwell <peterm at aoraki.dtc.hp.com>
Subject: starters - DME versus extract syrup

Bob Jones gave us interesting results of comparing DME with powdered sugar
and concluded that DME was better.  I have never used DME but extract syrup
instead.  Are there any thoughts or experiences regarding any difference
between these?

	Peter

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Date:           Sat, 20 Feb 93 14:31 EST
From: Richard_Ahrens at vos.stratus.com
Subject:        Rolling Rock #33

Michael T. Lobo asked for the real meaning of the "33" on the Rolling Rock
label. Cecil Adams, who writes "The Straight Dope" column in numerous papers,
researched this some time ago. His answer is included in the second
collection of extracts from those columns, "More of The Straight Dope." The
book is a gas - check your bookstore. Where else would you find all 32 of the
variations of the spelling of Muammar Qaddafi's name recognized by the
Library of Congress?

Anyway, Adams says that the number "officially" represents two things: the
year Prohibition ended and the number of words in the slogan on the bottle.
That slogan is "Rolling Rock from glass lined tanks in the Laurel Highlands.
We tender this premium beer for your enjoyment as a tribute to your good
taste. It comes from the mountain springs to you."

He adds, "Now this is a touching sentiment, and there is no question that
there are 33 words in it, but from the point of view of being intellectually
satisfying, it sucks." So he interviewed James L. Tito, former CEO of Latrobe
Brewing. Tito's family owned the company from Prohibition until 1985. His
answer was based on notes and discussions with now dead family members. In
other words, it probably can't be substantiated either, so take it with a
grain of salt.

Apparently when the Titos were preparing to introduce Rolling Rock in the
late thirties, there was much argument about what slogan to put on the back
of the bottle. Long and short ones were debated. When the one eventually used
was written, someone wrote a big "33" on it to indicate its length. When the
original copy went to the bottle maker, they did not realize that the number
was not part of the text and it made its way onto the first run of bottles.
Rather than throw out perfectly good bottles, they then made up a story about
it representing the end of Prohibition.

Adams seems a bit skeptical of this version, too, but he seems to have gotten
as close as one can get to a real source of any folklore.

Return to table of contents



End of HOMEBREW Digest #1083, 02/23/93