FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Lallemand dry yeasts (Peter Maxwell)
  Raspberry beer (CCAC-LAD) <wboyle at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
  more info on British pubs (BadAssAstronomer)
  WATER BOILING ON AN ELECTRIC STOVE (Thomas_Joe)
  mail order hops (tims)
  Powdered Sugar ("John Cotterill")
  Finings / Starter Wort (Lee Menegon)
  Pectate enzyme (Chuck Coronella)
  forwarding address (fahrner_t)
  Yeast Starter Questions (STBLEZA)
  Attention Grain-Brewing, Would Be Control Freaks (Donovan Bodishbaugh)
  Oiling Your Mills... (Lloyd MacIsaac)
  Clear Beer (William Frederick Pemberton)
  Clear beer (Daniel Roman)
  Re: Ranching (The Rider) (Michael Fetzer)
  Re: BrewCap (Bob LaGesse)
  Sugar and real ale (Desmond Mottram)
  Beer on a stick (was BrewCap)  (Carl West)
  Dry Hopping, English Beers, Just a Thought (CW06GST)
  Assorted Questions. (Brewmeister Gene)
  Texas Brewpub Legislation  (Dewey Coffman)
  Starting that siphon/bottle brushing (Jeffers.Wbst129)
  Sugar (Jeff Frane)
  Caramel Flavour Ideas?? (rizy)
  Re: Clear beer (Jonathan A. Rodin)
  Re: hop aroma / real ale (Paul Jasper)
  Isn't Chinook an Army helicoptor? (kstiles)
  Re: Sanitizer (Richard Stueven)
  My Current RIMS setup (Alan Gerhardt)
  Re: siphon starting/Edme... yikes! (korz)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1993 11:19:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Peter Maxwell <peterm at aoraki.dtc.hp.com>
Subject: Lallemand dry yeasts

C. Lyons writes:

> I'm very curious what Al's comments were on the different yeasts.
> Al, if you've had a chance to taste the above beers you've
> referred to, please comment.  I'd also be very interested in
> hearing from others who have experimented with various dry
> yeasts.

Before I switched to Wyeast I used Nottingham Ale yeast quite a lot.
Generally I had very good results except for two successive batches that
produced a very strange flavor strongly reminiscent of that found in German
wheat beers.  In fact, one person who tasted it said that brewers strive to
get this flavor.  Well, in a pale ale it's rather out of character.  I don't
know why this happened.  It could have been higher than normal brew
temperatures (done in summer) or a contaminated batch.  At any rate, I
switched to Wyeast after that and haven't had any more problems.  Reusing
slurry from the secondary cuts down the extra cast involved.

As an aside, 1056 is REALLY attenuative!  My latest was fermented with
slurry from the previous (which used 1056 from the packet, via a starter).
In 3 days the SG went from 1.042 to 1.008.  I've heard it becomes even more
attenuative with successive mutations, too.

	Peter

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Date:     Wed, 3 Mar 93 14:16:15 EST
From: William Boyle (CCAC-LAD) <wboyle at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  Raspberry beer

I am thinking about making a raspberry beer, the cost of
raspberries is a bit high.  I was going to use soda extract.
Mix it in at bottling time (this way I can adjust the amount
to my taste).  Has anybody tried this?  How did it turn out?
Any comments will be appreciated.

                                             B^2

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Date:    Wed, 3 Mar 1993 13:31:18 -0600 (CST)
From: STOREY at fender.msfc.nasa.gov (BadAssAstronomer)
Subject: more info on British pubs


    Hi all

    I too would like to appeal to all you worldly people and locals
    out there. Someone posted a request for recommended English pubs
    and brewpubs of London some time ago. I will also be in London in
    the next couple of weeks. But I will also be elsewhere on the
    island. I plan to visit all type of places in the south of England
    concentrating on the Portsmouth and Bournemouth areas. I have
    plans to go to Bristol and Exeter. Just about anywhere in the
    southern half of the country is fare game.

    So, if any of you have any experiences you would like to share, I
    would like to hear them. So far the only brewery I plan to
    visit/tour is the Eldridge Pope brewery. Hope they have a tasting
    room somewhere :). You can post privately to me, or send it to the
    digest. There is bound to be someone out there besides me that
    would find any info useful.

    thanks
    scott

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Date: Wed, 3 Mar 93 13:09:00 CST
From: Thomas_Joe at lanmail.ncsc.navy.mil
Subject: WATER BOILING ON AN ELECTRIC STOVE

 I HAVE RECENTLY MOVED TO A SMALLER PLACE THAT DOESN'T ALLOW B-B-Q'ING 
 OR THE USE OF A KING COOKER. THEREFORE, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF ANYONE 
 HAS HAD SUCCESS BOILING THEIR WORT ENTIRELY ON AN ELECTRIC STOVE? IF 
 SO, HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE AND CAN YOU SUGGEST ANY TIPS TO SPEED THE 
 PROCESS WITH MY 8 GAL. CERAMIC ON STEEL POT.

 - JT

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Date: Wed, 03 Mar 93 10:40:39 -0800
From: tims at ssl.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: mail order hops


I am looking for the name and address of a company (I think
one good one was in Oregon) which will ship hop root
cuttings, from which one can grow their own hops.
If someone has this and can email it to me, I would
appreciate it.

Thanks,

Tim
tims at sag4.ssl.berkeley.edu

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Date: Wed, 3 Mar 93 12:20:19 PST
From: "John Cotterill" <johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com>
Subject: Powdered Sugar
Full-Name: "John Cotterill"

I asked Micah why he used powdered sugar instead of regular sugar.  He stated
that the powdered sugar is easier to work with and it disolves better.  There
is no chemical reason, its just easier.

BTW, as I mentioned, my experience with sugar only starters suggested that I
return to good old DME.  My yeast seem much happier.

JC
johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com

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Date: Wed, 3 Mar 93 15:51:55 EST
From: Lee Menegon <necis!lmenegon at transfer.stratus.com>
Subject: Finings / Starter Wort

A recent post asked about the use of Polyclar as finings when to add and
 how much.  I would warn against using Polyclar immediately after racking
to the secondary.  Both my self and a fellow brewer were experiencing high
levels of diacetyl in our beers.  One of the causes was the addition of
 Polyclar immediately into the secondary.  This caused the yeast to fall
 out of suspension before it worked on reducing the diacetyl caused by 
pitching at too high a temp. 1 to 1.5 tsp is plenty to add to the secondary
after a couple days of "diacetyl rest".

Starter Wort:  I use the following technique for producing starter wort.
After racking off the trub I add a gallon of very cold water to the trub.
I let the trub, wort, hop particles
settle and siphon the clear liquid in to clean bottles which I immerse
in boilng water for 30 minutes.  I cap these and refridgerate. This
produces a starter of about 20 to 25 sg points.  I was led to believe
that starters should not be high gravity since yeast mutation could occur
as the alchol level rises.  Is this a valid assumption? 

  
- -- 

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Date: Wed, 3 Mar 93 14:38 MTS
From: Chuck Coronella <CORONELLRJDS at CHE.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Pectate enzyme

I have a very short question regarding the use of pectate enzyme.  As I 
understand it, this enzyme can be used to break down the pectate that will set 
as a result of boiling a fruit, preventing the set pectate from clouding beer. 

My question(s) are these:  Is that statement above correct?  At what point in 
the process is this enzyme added to the wort?  (Before, after boil, in 
secondary...)  How much is necessary?

I'm planning to use this in a cherry beer that I am making.  Actually, the
beer is already fermenting, and I'm planning to add the crushed cherries in a
couple of days.  To avoid nasties, I'd like to boil the fruit before it's
added to the fermentation. 

Thanks for any help,
Chuck

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Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1993 17:03:58 EST
From: fahrner_t at wums.wustl.edu
Subject: forwarding address

Please send the homebrew digest to my new address: fahrner at milbrandt.wustl.edu

Thanks in advance

Tim Fahrner

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Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1993 18:29 EST
From: STBLEZA at grove.iup.edu
Subject: Yeast Starter Questions

Greetings all...

I have a couple quick questions about yeast starters and survivobility.
First, can yeast survive being frozen for long periods of time?  Does it depend
on the type of yeast used?  If so, does anyone have info on what type work and
what types don't?
Second, and health-store type Brewer's Yeast be used as a yeast nutrient?  It
would seem reasonable to me, since brewers yeast is killed yeast, so it should
have all the things yeast wants, in all the right quantities.
Now, here is what I want to do...
I want to get good yeast, and make a large patch of starter which is then
frozen.  Then, whenever I go to add yeast to my wort or must, I just 'chip' some
yeast off of my starter ice block, re-start it in a glass or jar, and add that
to the wort or must.  This would decrease my expense for yeast a good bit, and
would be easier than trying to keep active growth going for-bloody-ever (not to
mention that this would avoid all the problems with mutation).  So, what do
people think?  If no one has an answer, I will try it out myself...

Also, to all the people I promised a review of my medieval brewing techniques
to, sorry that it's taking so long, but I'm writing it up, and I'm currently
bogged down at school, so...

+*****************************************+************************************+
|"There are no choices between good and   |The Dragon of                       |
|evil.  All choices are between the       |    Summer Sun and	               |
|lesser of two evils, or the greater of   |           Winter Moon	       |
|two goods."                              |(AKA J. Hunter Heinlen)             |
|   -The Dragon of Shadow Walking and     |(Bitnet:STBLEZA at IUP)                |
|    Night Stalking -- a good friend  RIP |(Internet:STBLEZA at GROVE.IUP.EDU)    |
+=========================================+====================================+

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Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1993 18:26:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Donovan Bodishbaugh <dfb at acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: Attention Grain-Brewing, Would Be Control Freaks

My feelings concerning the ridiculous running debate over AG vs. ME
brewing (I can resist no longer):

	You cretins have got it all wrong!  The beauty of grain brewing
lies not in gaining control, but in relinquishing control!  Once I brewed
extract beers, and they were good, but they all tasted more or less the
same.  Any changes in character (body, bitterness, color, strength, aroma,
etc.) were totally predictable, based on my simple alterations in the
recipe.  There was absolutely no surprise (read adventure) in cracking a
new batch.  Now I grain brew exclusively, because every batch is a totally
new experience.  Burners, brewpots, lauter tuns, thermostatically
controlled immersion heaters, circulators, chillers, every new piece of
paraphenalia I employ only adds another variable and source of
unpredictable complexity to my brews.  Call it the Heidelberg Uncertainty
Principle of brewing.  My beers just get better and better, no two taste
the same (regardless of using the same recipe), and, best of all, none of
them tastes remotely like a commercial product.  If my objective was to
gradually perfect some imitation of a "classic style" by trial and error
repetition, I'd buy a case of Pilsner Urquell or Guiness Extra Stout,
scrape off the labels, and spend all my weekends fishing!  What do you
people consider to be fine art, paint by the numbers?  Grain brewing
allows you to unleash the infinite variability of grain combinations,
complex carbohydrates, protein interactions, acid-base and redox
biochemistry.  The result is like ice sculpture: You can marvel at it,
savor it, and enjoy it in different lights, but you can't put it in a
museum.  If you think grain brewing gives you more control over the
finished product, you're seriously deluded.  If that is what you're after,
you are also missing the point.

DFB

"When the going gets tough, the weird turn pro." - Dr. Hunter S. Thompson


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Date:         Thu, 04 Mar 93 07:31:42 EST
From: Lloyd MacIsaac <UGF00011 at vm.uoguelph.ca>
Subject:      Oiling Your Mills...

When I worked in a Restaurant the chef used Vegitable Oil to keep his
kitchen gadgets from rusting (esp. roasting pans). Perhaps this could
be the answer for mills?  Veg oil is edible and cheap. I guess Peanut oil
or sesame oil might even impart an unique taste ??

Don't know if it works, but sounds better than refined motor oil!

Lloyd MacIsaac (UGF00011 at VM.UOGUELPH.CA)

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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1993 08:50:45 -0500 (EST)
From: William Frederick Pemberton <wfp5p at holmes.acc.virginia.edu>
Subject: Clear Beer

Isn't Coors marketing a clear beer called Zuma (or some similar silly
name)?

This clear thing is a really strange fad....

Bill


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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 9:18:42 EST
From: roman at tix.timeplex.com (Daniel Roman)
Subject: Clear beer

Apparently Miller and some others are trying to go after a "younger"
market as well as trying to go after women.  They define "younger" as
21-25 ;-)  Anyway, following on the coattails of the light beer wave and
then the dry beer wave and now Crystal Pepsi, clear beer had to be next.

Think of it as marketing genius for the big boys to make even more
money with an even more tasteless product.  They won't have to spend
much money on malt, just more rice and corn (remember the Bud commercial
"It's the rice").  They'll charge the same price and end up with
something that tastes more like Perrier than Coors light does now but has 
as much alcohol as a light beer.  

Hopefully the FDA (or whoever is in charge of this kind of thing) won't 
allow them to call it beer anymore.  It's really gonna give beer a bad 
name (or at least "WATER" down the definition of "beer").  My 
suggestion for a name would be "Alcoholized Seltzer".  I don't know why 
they just don't go ahead and make seltzer by artificially carbonating 
it and then just add some grain alcohol, that's gotta be cheaper then 
going through the trouble of brewing it.

I certainly don't expect anyone to get into homebrewing to make "clear
beer".
- -- 
_________
Dan Roman  GEnie: D.ROMAN1  Internet: roman at tix.timeplex.com  //
American Homebrewers Association member        Only AMIGA!  \X/

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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1993 07:02:26 -0800
From: mfetzer at ucsd.edu (The Rider) (Michael Fetzer)
Subject: Re: Ranching

Ahem. All this talk of Ranching is getting to me! Look folks... they're
plants. We call that farming! Ranching is for critters... Seems to be a
common misconception amongst brewers. *grin*

(just some humor to throw between the maltmills...)

Mike

__
Michael Fetzer
Internet:      mfetzer at ucsd.edu        uucp:    ...!ucsd!mfetzer
Bitnet:        FETZERM at SDSC            
HEPnet/SPAN:   SDSC::FETZERM           or       27.1::FETZERM


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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1993 10:10:58 -0500 (EST)
From: bobml at msd.measurex.com (Bob LaGesse)
Subject: Re: BrewCap

Six or so months ago I tried to contact the the BrewCap Company but my letter
was returned with forwarding address unknown.  If anyone has their current
address, please e-mail it to me.  Overall the BrewCap arrangement worked well
but I felt that the milk carton arrangment recommended by them wasn't as
secure as I would like.  Their instructions also mentioned a tripod (sold by
them) for holding the carboy which also allowed it to rotate 180 degrees.  
I think that this would make the handling of the carboy much easier.
Does anyone know anything about this contraption?

By the way Dan, Did you happen to buy your BrewCap at the Keweenaw Coop?
It's one of the best coops that I've ever been to; it's also a good source
of home brewing supplies.  In fact, I happened to buy my BrewCap there.
Also, When does your KRAUSENERS club meet?  Maybe I can bring up a few of
my own brews sometime to share 8^).

- -- 
Domain: bobml at msd.measurex.com    Bob LaGesse, Senior Software Engineer
  UUCP: ...!uunet!mxmsd!bobml     Measurex/Management Systems Division
 Voice: (513) 825-3931 X303       1280 Kemper Meadow Drive
   Fax: (513) 825-5393            Cincinnati, Ohio 45240, USA

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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 15:33:41 GMT
From: des at pandora.swindon.ingr.com (Desmond Mottram)
Subject: Sugar and real ale

Speaking as a Brit familiar with local brews and breweries:

Many, but by no means all, UK breweries use small amounts of caramel or 
brown sugar to _colour_ their beers. I've never heard of it being used for 
flavour. Other breweries use none at all and would be insulted if you 
suggested they did, so be careful how you ask. They use larger quantities of 
crystal malt instead. I can only obtain one type of crystal malt for 
homebrewing and it adds a lot of colour and flavour. Darker types don't seem 
at all common. I have a vague notion cara pils is a pale crystal malt. It is 
certainly not commonly used in British beers.

The excessive use of sugar in brewing is generally regarded in the UK with 
the same contempt and disgust as elsewhere. Only mega marketing muck makers 
do it, to cut costs and to hell with quality.

Real Ale in the UK is beer which has not been filtered, pasteurised or 
pressurised, and which is allowed to condition in the barrel. Air is drawn 
in as it is served, so its shelf life is 4 days max. If any hops are 
present they will be fresh hops added to the barrel when the beer is racked, 
they would NEVER be spent hops from the boil.

Some UK pubs pressurise the beer with CO2 to force it to the bar. Others 
keep it under a CO2 banket to extend shelf life. The former is called "top 
pressure" and the latter "blanket pressure". Purists condemn both methods 
and say beers kept in this way are not real. CO2 adds an unpleasant prickle 
to real ale, though this is usually only evedent when top pressure is used.
Normally real ale is handpumped. If the beer is served through a tap (or 
switch) or if the handpump is pulled back and left while the beer runs out,
ask if they are using an electric pump or top pressure. The former is OK, 
the latter often is not.

PS please don't refer to England or English when you mean Britain or 
British. It upsets the natives no end.

Rgds, Desmond Mottram
des at pandora.swindon.ingr.com

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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 10:31:15 EST
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: Beer on a stick (was BrewCap) 

Dan sez:
- ------- -------------------------------
It took me two years to get around to using BrewCap after I bought it.
The main reason is that it requires that I have some way to hold a
carboy upsidedown without resting it on its neck.
- -------------  -----------------------

Took me a little while too.

My suggestion:

 -Stand a 5' or 6' 2x4 on end,
 -Drill a hole through the top end,
 -Drill another hole through it about a foot down from the first hole,
 -Run each of 2 lengths of rope through the holes,
 -Tie a loop in the lower rope that will hold the neck of your inverted
 carboy (experiment with an empty carboy),
 -Tie the upper rope around the erstwhile base of the carboy, make sure
 that it won't slip off, if it can, re-drill one of the holes so that
 the ropes will be closer together,

At Brewing Time:
 -Set your full carboy on the floor,
 -Invert the 2x4,
 -Hook the neck-loop on the neck of the carboy (watch the hoses),
 -Tie the base-rope really tight,
 -Holding onto the carboy, pick up the whole operation, turn it over, and
 rest the 2x4 on the floor (keep it balanced),
 -Lean it in a corner, make sure the 2x4 won't slip, and put a bag over it.

The hoses will hang down as straight as you please and the rotary
shaking to move the yeast into the neck is easy.
I hung a gallon jug further down the 2x4 to serve as the
blowoff/airlock, tie this on after it's all set up.

Carl West
Waltham, Mass.

When I stop learning, bury me.

[Kinney, if you like this enough to include it in future instruction
sheets, feel free to do so. I'll happily trade good illustrations for
another BrewCap or two ;)]

<was that too shameless?>

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Date:        Thu, 04 Mar 93 11:19:48 EST
From: CW06GST <CW06GST%SJUMUSIC.bitnet at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Dry Hopping, English Beers, Just a Thought

     Recent talk of dry hopping has really peaked my curiosity.
I would really like to brew an ale with a _strong_ hop nose.
I have tried the standard "add at the end of the boil" method
but I haven't gotten the results I would like.
     It seems that dry hopping is the answer, but I don't really
know how to do it.  The literature I have found has little or no
mention of dry hopping, and the only place I have gotten any
substantial information has been on HBD.  From what I understand
all that is really necessary is to add a quality hop plug to the
secondary and let sit for a week.  Is there something I'm missing?
Can you use pellets?  Is sanitation a problem?  What type of hops
are best?  Any details would be greatly appreciated.

    Recently someone was asking about British beers and pubs
(I'm sorry, I don't recall the name).  I hope you haven't left
yet, you lucky  at #$%!  My advice is to go to as many different
pubs, and try as many different beers as possible.  Not only
will you expand your beer horizons, but you will probably meet
some very interesting people.
     A couple of pubs that might be of interest are The Queen's
Larder, and the Salisbury, both in London.  The Queen's Larder
is a small neighborhood pub, simply decorated, with a friendly
atmosphere.  In addition to the beer, the stilton was very nice
also.  The Queen's Larder is located in the Bloomsbury section
of London, not far from The British Museum.  The Salisbury is a
much larger and more elegant pub, but they let me in anyway.
In addition to the ales they had on tap, they also have some
good bottled beer.
     In additon to the beers available in England that have
already been mentioned, one of my favorites is Flowers Strong Ale.
They also make an IPA which is quite good, but IMHO the strong ale
is really something special.  It is available on tap, at The Sherlock
Holmes Pub, located near Trafalgar Square.  It's a little touristy,
but at this time of year you'll probably meet some of the local
chaps.  If anyone knows anything more about Flowers Strong Ale,
I would appreciate any information.

     Finally, if there is something that you read in HBD that
you find stupid, useless, inappropiate, ridiculous, etc., why
don't you just be an adult and *ignore it* instead of helping
to propagate useless threads.


Have Fun!
Erik Zenhausern
Bronxville, NY

e-mail: cw06gst at sjuvm.bitnet

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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 11:13:28 CST
From: Brewmeister Gene <ezimmerm at hp.uwsuper.edu>
Subject: Assorted Questions.

     I have a DoppleBock fermenting right now that has 'been at it' for 
about 5 weeks. I used 12 lbs extract, and 1.5 lbs grains in this brew. I also
have used a starter culture (With extract, and it works GREAT!). Well, the
brew started in about 8 hours after pitching and has been kept at  40 F
+- 7 F for the past 4 weeks and 5 days(two days to ensure fermentation was
going well enough, actually just a day and a half). Anyway, I was wondering
if anyone would have an idea when this thing will end? I know I should have
taken hydrometer readings, but I hate to 'waste' this brew in anyway shape
or form. I am using an 's' type air lock and the solution levels are not
level and there are still bubles on the surface of the brew...

     My next question pretains to homebrew clubs int the Laramie WY
area. My wife has applied to a Ph.D. program there and we would move if she
is accepted. So, does anyone know of the 'brew scene' in Laramie?

     Much thanks for your efforts to help me out!

Gene in Duluth 



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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 11:32:36 CUT
From: ibmpa!vpdbox.austin.ibm.com!dewey at ibminet.awdpa.ibm.com (Dewey Coffman)
Subject: Texas Brewpub Legislation 


	I got a call from the guys at Southwest Brewing News this morning
	asking me to spread the word that they are producing a Special
	Issue on the Texas Brewpub Legislation. If you'd like to receive
	a free copy of this, please CALL (512) 282-3911, and tell them
	you heard about it from Dewey Coffman on USENET.

	( Please forward this to any interested parties )

	Southwest Brewing News 			(512) 282-3911
	11405 Evening Star Drive 	    FAX (512) 282-4936
	Austin, TX 78739 		 Email: ifby546 at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
	
			SouthWest Brewing News.
	Covering Arkansas, Oklahoma, Arizona, Lousiana, New Mexico & Texas.
	Home Brewing & other beer related news(like the battle for brewpubs
	here in Texas.) Columns like: "Ask the Beer Doctor", Brew Ha-Ha's
	(upcoming events), & "The Hopvine".  $12 a year.

	Publisher:	 Joe Barfield (512) 453-7001
	Editor:		 Bill Metzger (512) 282-3911
	Ad Manager:	 Hans Granheim (512) 443-3607
- --
Dewey Coffman		vpdbox.austin.ibm.com!dewey at ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com
Consulting  at  IBM	dewey at ctci.com			dewey at cactus.org
11400 Burnet Rd				All opinions are mine.
Austin, TX 78758-3493, USA		(512) 823-6463
===============================================================================
Don't Bag it. 1-800-453-SMOG, This letter is printed on 100% recycled electrons.


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Date: 	Thu, 4 Mar 1993 09:27:02 PST
From: Jeffers.Wbst129 at xerox.com
Subject: Starting that siphon/bottle brushing


I have a very simple method of starting siphons. I use a plastic bottle filler
tube with the little spring loaded valve in the bottom. After sterilizing the
hose and tubes I rinse them with with very hot tap water. Then I put the bottle
filler tube on the end of the siphon hose and rinse the assembly by opening the
valve while running hot water through. I then release the valve and have a
siphon hose and tube full of water. I attach the pickup tube empty and put it
into the carboy. I start the siphon by pushing the bottle filler tube against
the bottom of an empty bowl until the beer strts to come out. I then use one of
these large black paper clamps to hold it against the bottom of my bottling
bucket so my hand doesn't get tired. The flow through the bottle filler is
slower but it is ever so easy to control.

Whenever I was brushing away at my bottles my mind would be dreaming of
automatic bottle washers and automated spinning brushes and stuff of that sort.
I was also a little paranoid that my little bottle brush has to be coaxed to
hit all the inside surfaces of the bottle. Well one day a simple idea struck
me. I got a wine bottle brush, cut the loop off the end and chucked it up in my
battery powered drill. The bigger diameter brush is a little harder to push in
but it seems to have a better chance of hitting all of the corners. Now I power
brush my bottles right in the sanitizing solution. I just have to hold the
bottle to keep it from spinning, cram the brush in, pull the trigger, wobble it
around as I run it down and up. I have used this on 8 or 9 batches and it is
much easier. Please note that 110v drills could be dangerous if they were used
in this manner.

~ Bill

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Date: 04 Mar 93 13:49:36 EST
From: Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Sugar

Jack is right* about American brown sugar, one of the reasons
I find it inappropriate for ales.  Much closer, I believe, is 
something called Turbinado sugar, which I pick up at the health
food store -- this is a raw brown sugar, with a very different
consistency than "brown sugar" from the supermarket.

Incidentally, H L Hind's brewing text, written in Britain in the
1930s, gives representative grists for a variety of beers.  He
offers grain bills for pale ales with and without sugar (more with,
I recall, than without).  Relying on memory at the moment, it
seems that there is a good deal of discussion about various forms
of sugar and that "invert" sugar is preferred.

====

In reference to the production of "continental" aroma characteristics,
I've found in a recent brew that a _small_ amount of fresh Mt Hood
pellets, added at the end of the boil gave the beer an astonishing
Hallertau nose -- exactly like a good German lager.  In larger
quantities Mt Hood has its own distinctive aroma, but at this level,
about 1/2 oz/5 gallons, it is easy to see why it was developed as a
replacement for German Hallertau mittelfreuh.

- --Jeff Frane (gummitch at techbook.com)

*This is twice in the last week that Jack and I have agreed on
something -- will the planets shift their courses?




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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 19:30:21 +0100
From: rizy at eel.sunet.se
Subject: Caramel Flavour Ideas??

I'm an all-grain freak in search of a caramel taste in my ale.
I've tried using brown sugar but with little or no success. I've also tried
frying up a bit of sugar in the frypan to caramelize it. Does anyone know
how the likes of Newcastle Brown, Bass, etc get that special caramel
flavour with a smooth body.  Any serious suggestions would be very
welcomed.

             Rick Zydenbos
             Stockholm
             Sweden (Mead Country)

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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 14:10:09 -0500
From: rodin at ftp.com (Jonathan A. Rodin)
Subject: Re: Clear beer

Kieran O'Connor <OCONNOR%SNYCORVA.bitnet at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> writes:
> OK.  I couldnt believe it, but, alas, it was on NPR.  Miller will soon
> be offering a clear beer!  Anyone got any details?

lencell at unmc.edu (Lance Encell) writes:
> anybody hear about Miller coming out with a "clear" beer?
> Can you believe it?

I have in front of me the Food section from the March 3, 1993 Boston Globe.
It has an article on colorless drinks and how well they are selling.  It 
mentions that Miller is working on one and that Coors "is test marketing
a new product called Zima ClearMalt, which looks like a barbershop tonic,
is meant to be drunk like beer, but tasts of gin."  Yuch, I think I'll give
them a pass.

The article (which is primarily about clear soft drinks) goes on to state:
"It's the biggest marketing fad since the 'lite' craze of the '80s."  And
we all know the 'lite craze' improved American beers.

Jon

- --
Jonathan Rodin              FTP Software, Inc.            voice: (508) 659-6261
rodin at ftp.com               2 High Street                 fax:   (508) 794-4488
                            North Andover, MA 01845


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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1993 11:26:44 -0800
From: paul at melody.rational.com (Paul Jasper)
Subject: Re: hop aroma / real ale

On 3 Mar, 11:15, Norm Pyle wrote:
> Subject: hop aroma / real ale
> 
> Donald O'Connor's comments about dry hopping made me think about what the
> Brit's call "Real Ale".  I believe this term is intended to describe ale that
> has been dry hopped, and that has finished fermentation/conditioning in the
> keg.  Since this is done under pressure, this may explain the English folks'
> love of real ale.  Actually, it probably doesn't imply dry-hopping as much as
> leaving hops in the keg (perhaps left from the boil), but in either case,
> more hop aroma would be retained in this situation.
> 
>-- End of excerpt from Norm Pyle

Well, not really.  Real Ale doesn't have to be dry hopped and solids from
the boil usually won't find their way into the barrel.  Real Ale means the
beer undergoes a secondary fermentation in the barrel (or bottle) and is
served without the use of external pressure.  The word "keg" is frowned
upon by Real Ale aficionados because it means a closed system effectively
preventing any secondary fermentation.  To an Englishman, "keg beer" equates
to dead beer, pasteurized and pumped full of CO2 at the brewery/factory,
as popularized by beers like Watneys' Red Barrel in the 60s.

"Cask conditioned" ale requires the skill of the cellarman in overseeing
the fermentation after the barrel is delivered to the pub.  This involves
the use of soft (porous) and hard (non-permeable) wooden plugs, called
"spiles" to "vent" the barrel to control the fermentation, the level of
carbonation and the contact with oxygen from the air.  Real Ales are 
usually pumped from the barrel because there is insufficient pressure in 
it to propel the beer from inside.  Hence, the beautiful sight of a set
of ornamental handpumps sprouting from the bar of many British pubs.
Electric pumps are fine too, as long as they draw the beer from the cask.
"Gravity dispense" involves placing the glass under the tap on the barrel
itself - the most natural way of serving a pint!

Of course, many British Real Ales are dry-hopped.  This usually involves 
adding a handful of fresh hops at the brewery, just before the barrel is 
sent to the pub.

- -- 
- -- Paul Jasper
- -- RATIONAL
- -- Object-Oriented Products
- --

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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 15:16:40 EST
From: kstiles at aluxpo.att.com
Subject: Isn't Chinook an Army helicoptor?

In HOMEBREW Digest #1090 Ulick Stafford writes:

> I have been using Chinook hops as bittering hops, and have been a little
> disturbed by a slightly unpleasent aftertaste from beers brewed with
> them.  I have heard some criticism of this hop variety.  Am I seeing the
> effect of it?  If so can someone recommend a palatable high alpha bittering
> hop.

A few weeks back I solicited opinions of Chinook hops for flavor/aroma. 
Summary of responses:  Joseph Nall said that they were disdained for 
their flavor/aroma, and recommends Centennial instead.  Jack Schmidling 
uses them extensively for bittering and flavor, and finds them excellent 
for both uses.  Scott Barrett (earlier private communication) had seen 
them described as "spicy." A couple of months ago, Al Korzonis posted 
Alpha and Beta acid information from Hopunion for many hop varieties.  
[Enter fallible memory mode]  Somewhere, the argument was made that high 
Alpha bittering hops can leave harsh overtones because the Alpha/Beta 
ratio is much higher than it is for the noble hops (about 1.0).  By this
meric, Galena would be a better choice, though not as good as sticking
to noble varieties.

My interest in Chinooks originated with a first year harvest of almost
12 ounces.  I brewed a pale ale hopped solely with home grown Chinook 
hops to educate my palate.  It was a generic 1.060 SG pale wort with:
(full 5 gal. boil) 3/4oz. at 60 min, 1/2oz. at 30 min, 1/2oz. at 2 min 
and 1/2oz. for dryhopping in the secondary.  I found the flavor to be
unusual, but not unpleasant - pretty mild hop character considering
the IBU that I had calculated (about 55, assuming Alpha=12).  This
was such a popular brew that the second part of the experiment (the
effect of aging) had to be abandoned.  What would be nice would be a
reference to a commercial brew X, where, say, 
brew X : Chinook     as     Anchor Liberty Ale : Cascades.

Ah, well, back to experiments.

Kevin Stiles

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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1993 12:44:29 -0800
From: Richard Stueven <gak at wrs.com>
Subject: Re: Sanitizer

>From: korz at iepubj.att.com
>
>Personally, I'm trying to move away from Chlorine as a sanitizer from a
>environmental point of view.  Moving to Iodine may not be much better
>for the environment either.  I'm looking for a source of Peracetic Acid
>(Acetic acid and Hydrogen Peroxide).  The H2O2 quickly becomes water and
>acetic acid is plentiful in the world.  Also, a few stray ppm of acetic acid
>won't affect my brew as much as a few ppm of Sodium Hypochlorite will.

I'm no biologist either, but how's this:  if you have the means to
generate and manage it, wouldn't live steam make a reasonable and
"green" sanitizing agent?  Of course, it's just as nasty to, say, human
skin as it is to nasty-bugs, but like I said, you'd need some way to
manage it.

Biologists?  Environmental Engineers?  Plumbers?  Rank amateurs?

Actually, the peracetic acid idea doesn't sound too bad.  Wonder what
the Aldrich catalog has to say...  (Yes, Mike, I'll be giving it back
to you any day now.)

have fun
gak
Castro Valley, California

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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 9:51:31 CDT
From: agerhardt at ttsi.lonestar.org (Alan Gerhardt)
Subject: My Current RIMS setup


I have been a RIMS nut/experimenter since I first read Rodney's
article in Zymurgy. I've used coolers, kegs, and any other container
I could find to experiment.

My batch size has always been 10 gallons, and I have occasionally
run into the grain bed compaction problem described by others.

I have done two things over the last few months which have helped
considerably:

(1) I started using a roller mill ( yes, the infamous MM - if you
    put aside all the arm-waving and frothing at the mouth, it is
    a very good mill for the money ).
    
    My corona always seemed to produce some amount of flour, depending
    on how good my adjustment was. Sometimes, this flour would make a
    paste and clog my screen at the bottom of the mash/lauter tun.
    
    This problem went away when I started using the roller mill.
    
(2) My current mash/lauter tun is a 1/2 barrel keg with the top
    cut off and a drain pipe in the bottom, with a SS screen false
    bottom. When I start a batch, I place a "tube" formed by rolling
    up some SS screen in the center of the keg, resting on top of
    the false bottom. The diameter of the tube is about 3-4 inches.
    The mash is placed around the outside of the screen tube, so 
    from a top view, it looks like a donut.
    
    The recirculating wort now flows through the screen in the 
    middle as well as through the bottom. Since the primary goal 
    during the mash phase is to control temperature, it really doesn't
    matter that the flow is not uniform through the garin bed any
    more. The temperature seems to be reasonably uniform through
    the mash, and no compaction occurs.
    
    Also, by having the return flow from the pump exit below the 
    surface of the wort, I no longer have any foaming. That hopefully
    reduces HSE.
    
    At sparge time, I simply reduce the flow way down, pull the
    tube out, and give the mash a gentle stir. After about 5-10
    minutes, the wort is running clear again. I then turn the 
    pump off, start the pre-heated sparge water flowing in at 
    about the same rate as the wort drains out the bottom.
    
I have about 5 batches under my belt ( figuratively and literally)
using this setup, and it seems to work well.    
        
I hope this helps give someone more ideas to keep improving the
RIMS technology. More personal equipment experiences would really
help the s/n ratio on the digest. One does not have to agree or
approve of someone else's methods to gain benefit (food for thought)
from them.
        
I would be very interested in hearing about what type of temperature
controls anyone is using with a RIMS setup.        
        


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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 15:20 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: siphon starting/Edme... yikes!

My method for sanitizing my racking setup and siphoning:

1. Fill the priming vessel (usually a carboy) with sanitizing solution.

2. Fill the racking tube/hose with tapwater and close the plastic hose clamp

3. Dip the racking tube into the priming vessel, put the out-end of the
setup into a small bowl or pitcher, place this lower than the level of the
top of the sanitizing solution, open the clamp and siphon some of the
sanitizing solution till you get the small bowl 3/4 full.  Close the hose
clamp.

4. Let this sit for 10-15 minutes to sanitize the inside of the tubes, the
outside of the racking cane and the last foot or two of the out-end of the
hose.

5. Remove the setup from the priming vessel and the bowl and rinse off the
outside in hot water.

6. Hand it to your brew-partner to hold by the "safe-to-touch" areas (the
areas that will not be in touch with the beer) or place it down on a
previously sanitized place (I hang mine from the ceiling by a loop of
string -- touching only at the "safe-to-touch" areas).

7. Dump the sanitizing solution into a large bucket (I ususally use my
old plastic fermenter for this) just in case you need to re-sanitize.
Rinse the priming vessel and add your priming solution to it.

8. Pour some hot water (or boiled water if your water has bacterial
problems) into a vessel and place the in-end of the racking tube (the
racking cane, in my case) into this water.  Lower the out-end below
the level of the water and run the siphon for a few minutes to rinse
out the sanitizing solution.  Make sure stop the siphon (close the
hose clamp) before you run out of water.

9. Move the in-end of the setup into the beer you wish to siphon and
the out-end into a slop bucket.  Open the hose clamp and run the
siphon till it's full of beer.  Shut the clamp, move the out-end
into the priming vessel and re-open the clamp.

10. By the way, I don't let the siphon run dry at this stage either.
When I've finished siphoning the green beer into the priming vessel,
I shut off the clamp, raise the priming vessel, move the in-end of
the setup into the priming vessel, attach a sanitized bottling wand
and siphon a few seconds into the slop bucket to purge the un-primed
beer out of the setup.

Once I got to be good at this method, I only have to start my siphon
once and just use the previous liquid to start the siphon of the
liquid I want to siphon.  It may sound complicated, but it's not.

I would like to recommend *against* starting a siphon with one's mouth
in the strongest possible way (even if you rinse your mouth out with
hard liquor, etc.)... it's an invitation for trouble.  I used to use
a turkey baster, but it did not have enough volume to start the siphon
in one draw, so inevitably, I would blow a bunch of air through my
beer -- not good.

***********************
Kenneth writes:
>Subject: First all grain

>    9 lbs. Munton & Fison Lager (purchased precrushed, don't have a mill)
>    1/2 lbs. same grain toasted for 10 min at 350 in oven
>    1/2 lbs. Munton & Fison Crystal Malt  (No idea about L. rating)
>    1 oz. Kent Goldings  60 min boil
>    1/2 oz. Hallertauer Hersbrucher 30 min boil
>    1/2 oz. Hall. Hers. 10 min boil
>    pinch  Irish Moss  10 min boil
>    1 pk Edme dry yeast

I humbly would like to suggest that your beer would improve much more
if you switched away from Edme dry yeast.  I cringed when at the end of
your wonderful ingredient list, I read "Edme dry yeast."  If you want
to stay with dry yeast, try Lallemand Nottingham, or even better, try
Coopers dry yeast.

Al.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1091, 03/05/93