FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Geary's (gkushmer)
  BT mag / Foxx Equip CC orders (27-Jul-1993 0908 -0400)
  misc (Jim Busch)
  Hot water tanks (Ed Hitchcock)
  Aerating wort ("William A Kitch")
  Dry-hopping in Cornelius Kegs (gorman)
  More AHA/Zymurgy bashing ("Dennis Lewis" )
  Zima Brewing Co. ("Dennis Lewis" )
  Lager under water ("Dennis Lewis" )
  calories (Brian Bliss)
  Re: Various questions, White House beer (Jeff Benjamin)
  innoculating a starter from a petri dish (atzeiner)
  a beer poem (Stephen Brent Peters)
  Diacetyl reduction (lyons)
  HOW TO KEG? (KRUSE_NEIL)
  RE: Degrees of extract (lfk)
  CO2 (Jack Schmidling)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 8:37:56 EDT
From: gkushmer at Jade.Tufts.EDU
Subject: Re: Geary's


Hi.  

In response to lyons%adc and Geary's Pale Ale:  

David Geary brews with a proprietary yeast.  He doesn't like to say much
about it, although he does have a tendency to explode at you if he
finds out you've used it. ;-)

Cheers,

- --gk

Greg Kushmerek				"They [Australians] don't spell 'beer'
Sr. Researcher/Development		with four X's out of ignorance. . .And
Tufts University			light beer is a creation of the Prince
Medford, MA				of Darkness."   
gkushmer at jade.tufts.edu				-Morse, Thames Valley C.I.D.-

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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 06:13:27 PDT
From: 27-Jul-1993 0908 -0400 <ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com>
Subject: BT mag / Foxx Equip CC orders

re: Brewing Techniques

I too have received and started reading BT #2.  The editor pledged to keep
advertising always less then 50% of the mag's content.  Apparently, a few
people wrote in letters complaining about the size of the mag., but, when
added up, it compares favorably to others.  

Hey, if you think Zymurgy is bad with advertising, go check out one of the
Woman's magazines, like Glamour or something.  They are 95% advertising!!

re: Foxx Equip and CC orders

Al is correct, they do accept CC orders...

	BUT...

You must send them a letter, beforehand, authorizing them to use your CC
when you place orders.  In other words, you can't call today and have
something shipping to you immediately!  You need to send in the authorization 
letter first.  This is the policy as of yesturday when I placed an order 
for some keg parts.

JC FERGUSON			ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com

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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 9:26:39 EDT
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: misc

In the last digest:

<From: "Anthony Johnston" <anthony at chemsun.chem.umn.edu>
Subject: Briess, Northwestern

<questions about extract & a brewing career, snip

First, if you are serious about being a pro brewer, you should really
switch to all grain brewing ASAP.  Its not that much harder or expensive
and you will start to learn what its like to do the real thing.

Secondly, we need more brewers with backgrounds in Chemistry.  This is
not enough by itself, but you can augment this knowledge by inrolling in
Seibels short course in brewing technology or whatever they call it.  It
is a 12 week course in Chicago.  Before or after this, work in a brewery
doing anything to gain knowledge/experience.

<From: Robert Pulliam <Robert_Pulliam at aja.rand.org>
Subject: Various questions

<1.  For a 30 foot chiller, what might I expect the temperature of the
      exiting water to be.  Must I use a hot water rated hose?

Close to water temp.

<2.  When calculating my extraction efficiency, do I use the gravity of
      the wort fresh from the tun or after the boil?

after.

<3.  Is there an advantage to using a thick mash compared to using an
      extremely thin one that would give me say 7-8 gallons on first
	    runnings without having to add additional sparge water?

Thin is Ok up to about 2 litres/lb of grain.

<4.  I seem to recall a thread somewhere that discussed having to bring
      up the temperature of cold fermented beers near the end of the
      fermentation cycle to help remove somthingorother.  Is this a
      figment of my imagination or something I need to be doing?

Its called a diacetyl rest.  It reduces (guess what??) diacetyl.  To be 
an authentic contential lager, ferment at 48-51F for 1 week, drop temp 
2F per day until it is 42F. Rest here 2-4 days (diacetyl rest), then 
drop 2F per day until yu hit 31F.  Hold 4-8 weeks depending on style.  
Either lager in kegs, and bung to create natural CO2, or krausen with 
fresh krausen (fermenting yeast & wort, at 7-15% of volume).  Those who
"bring up" the temp are preeching the American fast lager approach.  This
is where ferments are done quite warm (up to 60F) and lots of diacetyl is
produced that requires reduction by the yeast.  It has been demonstrated that
bringing the temp up to 68-70F for 2 days or so will reduce the diacetyl
to "normal" levels.  Taste tests of experienced panels have shown a prefernece
for the traditional techniques.

<From: lyons%adc3 at swlvx2.msd.ray.com
Subject: Geary's Pale Ale

Classic Peter Austin brewhaus, Ringwood ale yeast, available from some yeast
culture companies.  A notorious Diacetyl producer.  Torrified wheat is used.

<From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Crushoff in Portland

<One problem with a closed water heater you may want to think about is the 
 fact that chlorine and other volatiles in the water have nowhere to go.  In 
 an open vessel they evaporate continually.

Excellent point.  I was going to feed it from my whole house carbon filter
that also happens to feed my water line into my kettle.  Chlorine and most
solids will never make it into the tank.

Good brewing,
Jim Busch

DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!

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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 10:40:19 -0300
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: Hot water tanks

> >Has anyone converted a hot water heater into a hot liquor tank?  I
> have two options: 220V electric with 2 elements or a gas fired unit.
>
> One problem with a closed water heater you may want to think about is the
> fact that chlorine and other volatiles in the water have nowhere to go.  In
> an open vessel they evaporate continually.

You can use a hot water heater, but not connected as a household water
heater.  Connect the water input line as usual, but leave the top outlet
open, perhaps with a wide clear open tube connected to the top outlet.
Your actual outlet will be the drain spigot on the bottom of the heater.
Open an inlet valve to fill the heater, but shut off the supply when the
tank is almost full (a clear tube connected to the top outlet will tell you
your tank is full, then you can drain a little).  You may then heat your
water , and volatiles will escape through the top opening.  This will work
best if there is some headspace at the top of the tank.  If you want to get
REALLY fancy, have a split connection at the top outlet tube, one end going
to a stopcock and one end going to a vessel containing a toilet tank float
valve.  That way you can shut off the stopcock, turn on the water input,
and the float valve will stop the inflow of water when the tank is just
over full.
     Disclaimer:  I have not done this.  Although I may someday...

	ed

____________   
Ed Hitchcock/Dept of Anatomy & Neurobiology/Dalhousie University/Halifax NS
ech at ac.dal.ca   +-----------------------------------------+
		|   Never trust a statement that begins:  |
		|     "I'm not racist, but..."		  |
		+-----------------------------------------+
	Diversity in all things.  Especially beer.

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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 09:31:05 CST  
From: "William A Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Aerating wort

In HBD #1190 Jonathan Gibbens asks:

[snip]
> How do you sufficiently aereate your wort before it goes into the
fermenter?  In glass it's easy . . .
[snip]
 Here's a simple method.  Take a 6" piece of rigid plastic tubing
(like from an old racking cane) and drill four 1/32" holes in it
about one inch from the end.  Place the exit end of your siphon hose on
the end of the tube at the end where you drilled the holes. Now when
you siphon into your fermenter, air will be drawn in through the
small holes just as with you sink aerater.  I use this method when
siphoning chilled wort into my primary.  By the time I syphon five
gallons into my primary, I have two to four inches of foam on top.
You could also use copper or stainless steel tubing if you like.




              ___________
    wort in -->           |
              _________   |
                      |   |<-- siphon tube
                      |   |
                      |   |
                      || ||
                       | |
                       | |
             air in -->o o<--1/32" holes
                       | |
                       | |
                       | |
                       | |<-- rigid tube (plastic, copper, or SS)
                       | |
                       | |
                        |
                        |
                        \/
               foaming wort out

Sante' WAK

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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 10:32:28 EDT
From: gorman at aol.com
Subject: Dry-hopping in Cornelius Kegs

Just tried the dry-hopping technique described in the recent Zymurgy. 

Whole hops (used Hallertau in a weizen) in a mesh bag placed into a Cornelius
Keg at kegging time. I weighted the bag down with a handful of marbles. I
boiled the bag and marbles (w/o hops) to attempt sanitization.

This produced the most pronounced hop bouquet I've yet experienced from an
ounce of hops. I haven't noticed any off flavors introduced by the bag in the
keg.

Makes sense, the aroma doesn't have anywhere else to go.

N.B. An ounce of whole hops requires more marbles than you might think to get
it to sink. Try a big handful.

Enjoy,

Bill Gorman

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Date:         27 Jul 93 10:07:24 CST
From: "Dennis Lewis" <DLEWIS%jscdh6 at jesnic.jsc.nasa.gov>
Subject:      More AHA/Zymurgy bashing

To add to Kieran O'Connor and Dave Smucker's dismay about the AHA
and Zymurgy, I recall that the latest price hike from the AHA
(from $25 to $29, I think) was because Zymurgy was costing so much to
print. So everyone in the AHA was called upon to pay for the wasted
pages full of AHA ads and other self-serving crap, because, evidently,
it wasn't paying for itself.

Does anyone know if _The New Brewer_ is of the same "quality" as
Zymurgy? It's published by the Institute for Brewing Studies (all in
the same office as the AHA, and others) and is billed as a "must-have"
for anyone interested in or working in the micro/brewpub field.

I'm looking forward to my Brewing Techniques subscription. Sounds
like quality work.

Dennis Lewis                    <dlewis%jscdh6 at jesnic.jsc.nasa.gov>
Homebrew, The Final Frontier.

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Date:         27 Jul 93 10:25:47 CST
From: "Dennis Lewis" <DLEWIS%jscdh6 at jesnic.jsc.nasa.gov>
Subject:      Zima Brewing Co.

David Holsclaw writes:

>Even if it is free, it is not worth the time and effort to
>try this cr*p.  One other thing, I thought this was a Coors
>product? The can said Zima Brewing Company? Is this a Coors
>subsidiary or am I just confused (not unusual).

I don't think that there is a separate company called Zima Brewing
Co. The "subsidiary" approach is Coor's way of separating itself from
the Zima product, just in case it sucks (from what I understand, it
does). If Zima does not sell, then the company will die a quiet death
at the hands of lawyers and the Coor's name will remain clean.

One thought: maybe we have been too harsh on Zima because we have
been judging it against our standard criteria for beer. I don't think
that Zima claims to be beer, but a malt beverage maybe (?), and it's
probably labeled "malt liquor" because of the goofy alcohol laws we
have in this country. So maybe Zima isn't bad for the *style*
(whatever the hell that may be...), just like Bud is an excellent
example of the American Standard Lager.

Not!


Dennis Lewis                    <dlewis%jscdh6 at jesnic.jsc.nasa.gov>
Homebrew, The Final Frontier.

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Date:         27 Jul 93 10:42:18 CST
From: "Dennis Lewis" <DLEWIS%jscdh6 at jesnic.jsc.nasa.gov>
Subject:      Lager under water

Dave Hinz asks about lagering beer bottles under water in his 200 gal
milk cooler. Technically, it sounds like a great idea. The bottles
are sealed and there's no way to contaminate the beer.

However, I've noticed one thing about my bottle caps: I always boil
a couple extra when bottling and then out the unused ones back in
the bag afterwards. I have noticed that if I don't dry them really
well, they get rust spots. (This may just be the caps I bought this
time....)

The caps are made of regular steel or maybe tin, but not
stainless or aluminum, and are coated with some sort of anodizing (I
guess from the color inside only.) I know they aren't SS or Al
because the magnet in my capper holds onto them.

In the process of capping, the cup that seats the cap may scrape off
enough of the coating to expose the underlying metal. While this rust
would only be on the outside, it would make you think twice about
drinking the contents. I suggest capping a couple bottles of water
and testing it out first.


Dennis Lewis                    <dlewis%jscdh6 at jesnic.jsc.nasa.gov>
Homebrew, The Final Frontier.

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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 10:56:09 -0500
From: bliss at pixel.convex.com (Brian Bliss)
Subject: calories


Someone wanted a formula. This was posted some time ago.
bb

 .
 .
 .

I know that there have already been answers to this question, including
disclaimers by George Fix and a nice linearized version with analysis
by Robert Bradley, but I thought someone might like to see yet another
version of the formulas. These are the same formulas that George Fix
gave, except that they have been converted to FG and OG (using the
Plato to SG (divide by four) conversion that is not exact acording to
George). This is probably what Robert did, before he linearized them.
Anyway, here they are:

Note that OG and FG are used in the full form (e.g. 1.045). C stands for 
the calorie content per 12 ozs., and the {alc} and {ext} subscripts signify
the fractions from alcohol and extract respectively.

Other definitions:

A   = alcohol content of finished beer in % by weight. 
RE  = real extract of finished beer in degrees Plato. 
OG  = original gravity of the beer. 
FG  = final gravity of finished beer. 

     76.8 (OG - FG)
A  = --------------
      (1.775 - OG)
       
RE = 250 (0.1808 OG + 0.8192 FG - 1)

                       (OG - FG)
C_{alc} =  1881.22 FG ------------
                      (1.775 - OG)
                     
C_{ext} =  3550 FG (0.1808 OG + 0.8192 FG - 1.0004) 

C  =  C_{alc} + C_{ext}

              [ 0.53 (OG - FG)                                    ]
C  =  3550 FG [ -------------- + (0.1808 OG + 0.8192 FG - 1.0004) ]
              [   1.775 - OG                                      ]



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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 10:14:36 MDT
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Various questions, White House beer

> 1.  For a 30 foot chiller, what might I expect the temperature of the
>     exiting water to be.  Must I use a hot water rated hose?

Well, the closer the exiting water is to 100C, the more efficiency you're
getting.  I've never measured the temp of the water coming out of my
40-foot counterflow chiller, by I can empirically say that it's *hot*.
Hot enough to scald.  The plain old garden hose used in my chiller
seems just fine, though, after 20 or so batches.

> 2.  When calculating my extraction efficiency, do I use the gravity of
>     the wort fresh from the tun or after the boil?

Assuming you add no water during the boil, both measurements should give
you pretty much the same thing.  The amount of water evaporating will be
proportional to the increase in gravity.

I usually measure both:  right after sparging, so I can make any needed
adjustments, and after the boil to make sure of my original gravity.  I
calculate total points of extract right after the sparge using:

	v * p = T

wshere v is volume, p (points) = (gravity-1)*1000, and T is total points
for the batch (e.g.  collected 6 gallons  at  1.055 = 6*55 = 330 points).
You can then solve v*p=T for either v or p, depending on what you're
shooting for (e.g.  if I had wanted a beer at 1.060, I would need to
boil down to 5.5 gals; if I boiled down to 5 gals of beer, my original
gravity would be 1.066.  On the other hand, if I wanted a lighter 1.045
beer, I'd need to add water so I ended up with 7.33 gallons *after* the
boil was completed).

>  4.  I seem to recall a thread somewhere that discussed having to bring
>  up the temperature of cold fermented beers near the end of the
>  fermentation cycle to help remove somthingorother.

I believe this is called the diacetyl rest.  Although diacetyl, which
produces a buttery or butterscotch aroma, is desirable in some styles of
ales, it is usually not wanted in lagers.  Yeast produce diacetyl, but
will re-consume it later in their life cycle if allowed to do so. This
raising of the lager temp is supposed to "reactivate" the yeast to some
extent to encourage them to consume the diacetyl.  If you're brewing
ales, this step isn't necessary.

> >Ginger Beer
>
> >Put into a kettle two ounces of powdered ginger root (or more if it not
> >very strong), half an ounce of cream of tartar, two large lemons, cut
> >into slices, two pounds of broken loaf sugar and two gallons of soft
> >boiling water.  Simmer them over a slow fire for half an hour.  When the
> >liquor is nearly cold, stir into it a large tablespoon of the best
> >yeast.  After it has fermented, which will be in about twenty-four
> >hours, bottle for use.
>
> And again, only 24 hours [of fermentation]?

Yup, or maybe 48.  I don't know about the hop beer recipe, but I make
my ginger ale using an almost identical recipe.  You want a "soft" drink
like this to have much less alcohol and more carbonation than beer; you
achieve this by bottling 24-48 hours after pitching yeast.  Why no
exploding bottles?  I believe the theory is that there is very little
yeast nutrient in the recipe, so in spite of all the sugar the yeast
poop out pretty quickly.

You can also avoid trouble by using strong bottles (champagne bottles
work well, as do 2l plastic soda pop bottles) and refrigerating the
bottles after only a couple of days of conditioning.  I've never had a
ginger bomb yet.

- --
Jeff Benjamin                               benji at hpfcla.fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
					    - T.S. Eliot

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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 12:18:56 CDT
From: atzeiner at iastate.edu
Subject: innoculating a starter from a petri dish

I just started culturing yeast and have two ale yeast cultures in petri
dishes.  Out of curiosity, I used my innoculating loop to scrape up a glob of
yeast and put it into a starter bottle(~1/2 full 12 oz. beer bottle).  I didnt
really see much sign of fermentation, but after about 3 or 4 hours I looked at
it and it seemed to have yeast sediment in it.  I was wondering if it was
possible that there was enough yeasties in the glob that I picked up to make a
decent starter in only a few hours.  How much yeast should you pick up to
innoculate a 6 or 7 oz starter??  
 

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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 14:37:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen Brent Peters <sp2q+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: a beer poem



one night at a bar my drinkin' buddies and I wrote a poem about beer
by passing the pen 'n pad.  Here's what we came up with (slightly
edited)  enjoy.  WARNING!  STRONG LANGUAGE AT THE END.  NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH!


		BEER!
by Steve, Jami, Andy, & Christine

  Canto I

	Beer, beer, beautiful beer
	the more you drink,
	the more you peer(s)
	will admire your debonaire teeth
	as they glint in the glare of 
	of the glass of so many bottles
	lost in your sea of despair
	don't forget to tip your waitress
	and kiss her hair

	Canto II

	Drink a porter, drink a stout,
	drink a pilsner, dance and shout
	Chapstick, my flavored amigo,
	perchance a sepulchre?
	Don't take to long, OK? I gotta use it too.
	Barley juice?
	Dionisus fuck you!
	after all, does not wine
	suck donkey dongs?
	yes, I do believe this is true.



               Steve Peters =  sp2q at andrew.cmu.edu             
                  *Oxnar demands a _Sacrifice!_*                      

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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 16:11:50 EDT
From: lyons%adc2 at swlvx2.msd.ray.com
Subject: Diacetyl reduction

Robert Pullian writes in #1190:

>  4.  I seem to recall a thread somewhere that discussed having to bring
>      up the temperature of cold fermented beers near the end of the
>      fermentation cycle to help remove somthingorother.  Is this a
>      figment of my imagination or something I need to be doing?


   There was some noise on this some time back.  From what I recall 
Miller advacates raising the primary fermentation temperature of 
lagers after active fermentation has subsided, but before racking to 
the secondary.  The belief is that in the absence of oxygen the 
yeast will be better able to reduce the diacetyl levels.  I've found 
that this advice works great.  What I do is wait until the diacetyl 
odor is substantially reduced before racking to the secondary.  
Typically two to three days after after fermentation has ceased.  
Look at Miller's book for a more indepth explaination.

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Date: 27 Jul 93 13:47:00 -0700
From: KRUSE_NEIL at Tandem.COM
Subject: HOW TO KEG?

Hello,

A friend and I have got a hold of a soda keg and we're supposed to
get some of the other stuff, like the C02 canister and a cold plate...

Now here is my question.  How do we "keg"?  We've been making extract
beers for quite some time, where we add the corn sugar to the wort just
before we bottle.  Now that were gunna try the keg setup do we add the
corn sugar to the wort, let it ferment out completely, then rack to
the keg?  And then since the beer at that point is "flat" how
much C02 and when do you add it?  What keeps the trub out of the
keg?  I think you get where I am coming from.  What I need
are pointers on how to keg from a beginers perspective.

Thanks,     KRUSE_NEIL at tandem.com

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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 19:33 PDT
From: lfk at zip.veritas.com
Subject: RE: Degrees of extract

In HBD1189 pyeatt at Texaco.COM (Larry D. Pyeatt) writes:
>Don Doyle writes:
>> As a real example, I brewed 11gals with 26.5 lbs of grains and got
>> a 1.065. What extraction am I getting and is it good?
>
>Well, plugging the numbers into the equation,
>DE = 1.065 * 11 / 26.5 = .44
>or 44 degrees of extract.  From this, I would guess that you
>added some malt syrup or adjunct.
>

BZZZT!  The number calculated above is meaningless.  You need to
subtract out the SG of the water before doing multiplication.  Don has
already seen my input on this in private email, but when I saw the
above information I felt that a posting was necessary.  The equation
should be:

 DE = (OG - 1.0) * <gallons of extract> / <pounds of grain>

Plugging Don's numbers in gives us:

 DE = .065 * 11 / 26.5 = .02698 (or approx 27 degrees of extract per
                                 pound of grain)

While this isn't great extraction, it may not be all that bad.  It
could be that Don used several pounds of malt adjuncts that provide
fewer extract points.  When I do these calculations on my own brews I
usually subtract a value based on the expected yeild of malt adjuncts
from the numerator and the amount of said adjuncts from the
denominator in the above equation.  This kind of calculation breaks
down when a significant portion of the extract is from multiple malt
sources such as a 40% wheat mash.  For those types of mashes I treat
the wheat malt as base malt also.  For example; purely hypothetical
but probably not uncommon :-)

  Brew length(BL): 5G
  OG = 1043
  Grain bill: 6.5# 2-Row, 1# 40L (AWght)
  Approximate extract for 1# 40L = 20 (AExt below)

  DEbase = (((OG - 1.0) * BL) - AExt) / (GrainTotal - AWght)
  DEbase = (((1.043 - 1.0) * 5) - 20) / (7.5 - 1)
  DEbase = (215 - 20) / 6.5 = 195 / 6.5 = .030


Let's not forget that the density of water does not increase with
volume (at least not for our purposes).

- --
     Lynn Kerby  -  {apple,amdahl}!veritas!lfk or  lfk at veritas.com

Disclaimer: Any and all opinions expressed herein are my own and do not
            necessarily represent the views of anyone, especially my employer.

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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 22:25 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: CO2

 
 >From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
 
 >Hummm, this is news to me.  I had my local CO2 shop put together a F-F CO2
 coupling and hose for $15.  I hook one end to a 20Lb tank, the other to
 a small 2-5 Lb and fill it up.  I guess I dont open the valve all the way
 at once, but I have found a freezing/chilling effect as opposed to a heat
 build up.  It only will fill 1/4 or so depending on how full the 20Lb is,
 but It doesnt seem that dangerous.  The whole process takes about 20 seconds
  
 First of all, this will only work if we assume that the source tank was a 
 siphon type, i.e., dispenses liquid CO2 and not the type one could use for
 beer dispensing.  If you use a top venting tank, all you get is gas and will 
 only get the 800 psi that is in the source tank.  This might be enough to 
 dispense a bunch of beer but nowhere near what you would get if filled with 
 liquid CO2.  It's like filling a tire from a compressor that is shut off.  
 When the tire pressure equals the tank pressure, that's all you get.
 
 Secondly, if you fill with liquid CO2, the head pressure in the receiving 
 tank must be vented while filling or you can't fill it at all.  If frosty gas 
 was not hissing out while you were filling it, you were not filling it.
 
 As I mentioned before, the best way to know what is going on is to weigh the 
 tank.  If it does not weight 2.5 lbs more after filling than before, it aint 
 full.
 
 js
 
 

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1191, 07/28/93