FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Secondary, dry hopping (Domenick Venezia)
  Tadcaster brewery/spraying (ROB THOMAS)
  chill haze/peracetic acid/anchor steam (Ed Hitchcock)
  fermentation temp monitoring/cold room/bandwidth (Ron Natalie)
  Pressure Regulators (jayv379877)
  Lagering Time In Secondary Fermenter (Phil Brushaber)
  TRUE-BAY, BIG BUCKS (Jack Schmidling)
  PIZZA AND BEER FAQ PART 1 (chris campanelli)
   (KONSTANTINE)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1993 08:30:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Secondary, dry hopping

In the continuing saga of the novice brewer, I have some observations
and questions about secondary fermentation and dry hopping.

I bottled the "churning" batch of beer that I spoke of in a recent HBD. 
It did not appear infected, and the SG sample had no off-flavors.  It 
appears that the continuous activity was CO2 liberation by Polyclar, and
simply secondary fermentation.  

What is a typical reduction of specific gravity in a secondary?  I had not
expected as much as I got:

OSG to primary :  1.054
SG to secondary:  1.020
Final Gravity  :  1.012

I used hop pellets for the dry hop.  They were easy to add to the carboy,
they washed out easily, and they were a pain in the butt to bottle with.
Some of these tiny bits were floating on top, some were seemingly suspended,
some had sunk, none ever compacted on the bottom but would kick up at the
slightest provocation.  They tended to clog the spring loaded bottling
tube, but enough got through so there are little bits of hops in the
bottles.  

I dread the thought of trying to add 2 oz of whole hops to a carboy.  I think
they would wash out easily enough, but stuffing them through a 1" hole does
not sound like fun.  I could bag them, but stuffing a bag of hops and
marbles through a 1" hole doesn't seem like fun either.  Has anyone seen
1" tube bags?  How about plugs?  What do you veterans do?

The SG sample was good enough that I think I will try this batch again 
quite soon, but change the process to avoid standing barefoot in hot wort,
avoid melting the kitchen floor, and avoid hop pellets somehow.  

Thanks to all for your comments to my last posts about blow-off and the
endless churning secondary ferment. 

I love this stuff.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
venezia at zgi.com




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Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1993 14:22:45 -0700
From: Don Put <dput at csulb.edu>

Subject: Lager Sludge

I've got a problem with a lager that I brewed about three months ago.  After
bottling--BTW, this is an extract brew, my last one before going all-grain--
the yeast, Wyeast Bohemian, settled out nicely.  I then lowered the temp to
about 35-38F for continued aging.  Within a day or two a haze developed in 
the beer that really is distinctly different from the normal chill haze.  It
further developed until it looked like the flakes in one of those "Christmas
balls" that you shake up and watch the "snow" settle.  It has been about 5
weeks since I bottled and most of this stuff has settled out, forming a 1/4 
inch layer that stirs up easy on top of the yeast.  The beer has also  
developed a harsh back of the mouth bitterness and finish.  The recipe was
very close to Papazian's "Propensity Pilsner," with the addition of dry-
hopping using Saaz plugs for about seven days.

So, a few questions:

1)  Is this a characteristic of wild yeast contamination?  There has been no
    gushers or over-carbonation.

2)  Is it an undesirable side effect of dry-hopping with plugs?  Maybe I should
    have dropped the entire batch to 35F while still in the secondary to allow
    this "stuff" to settle out.

3)  The beer tasted very fine at bottling and at about 2 weeks after, then this
    strange taste developed.  Will this go away with more aging or should I 
    chalk this one up to experience and dump it?  (It is fairly undrinkable at
    this point).

This is the first lager that I attempted having recently acquired a dedicated
lager refrigerator.  I followed Miller's guidelines for fermentation times and
temps.  Any thoughts or ideas from those of you more experienced in the brewing
of lagers will be greatly appreciated.  BTW, a friend in the local brew club,
and a brewer for 8 years, tasted it and was stumped.  However, he drank the
whole bottle I poured him.  He says it starts nicely, then deteriorates into 
a "lingering back of the mouth bitterness."  He'd never seen this type of 
sediment before.

TIA, 

don
dput at csulb.edu


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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 93 15:43:21 MET DST
From: ROB THOMAS <THOMASR at EZRZ1.vmsmail.ethz.ch>
Subject: Tadcaster brewery/spraying

hello all,
Al Korz brought up the Tadcaster brewery, their highly flocculant yeast
and spraying in HBD1219. Well, working on the assumption 
that sinceTadcaster is in Yorkshire (UK), and the system sounds like the
"Stone Square" system (aka Yorkshire Stone Square System) that I
just read about in Hough,Briggs, Stevens and Young Malting and Brewing
Science, I thought I'd comment:
the Yorkshire Stone Squares were originally vessels made of stone and
later slate (now often steel). They have a lower compartment separated
from an upper one by a deck. In this deck is a manhole with a raised flange
 and tubes leading to the bottom of the lower compartment.
 During fermentation, the yeast/beer is forced up to the upper
 comparment through the manhole. From here the beer returns to the bottom via
 the pipes and the yeast remains on top. Because of the high flocculance
 of the yeast used, the beer is also pumped up from the bottom to the top
 and literally sprayed through a fish tail head (like on a watering can).
 The only comment made in the book about flavours associated with
 this system is "it is claimed to give a characteristic type of beer".
 Under the heading Diacetyl and 2,3-pentane dione however, they
 say that oxidizing agents (not necessarily O2, could be Cu, Al or Fe ions)
 are necessary. Increasing temperature, or exposing beer containing yeast
 to air increases diacetyl formation. It is also increased by conditions
 leading to rapid yeast growth (eg aeration!). The diacetyl flavour can
 also be caused by lactic acid bacteria, when the problem is called
 Sarcina Sickness.
 Well, that's about all I can remember for the minute,
 Happy brewing,
 Rob T.        

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Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1993 12:21:14 -0300
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: chill haze/peracetic acid/anchor steam

Norm Pyle writes:

>This conversation between Al and Scott has me confused.  They talk about chill
haze and tannins as being related.  I thought tannins were to be avoided because
of an astringent flavor component, rather than anything to do with haze.  Are
tannins protein based?  I too have had a chill haze problem with a recent batch
and was surprised to hear talk about acidifying sparge water as a cure.  Well,
have I removed all doubt???

	Tannins are phenols.  Chill haze can be caused by starch, but 
usually is due to phenol-protein compounds.  According to George Fix, the 
best way to reduce chill haze is to get the wort of the break material, 
which removes half of the haze forming material.

*******

Duane Romer  writes:

>You can indeed make peracetic acid by simply mixing H2O2 &
acetic acid (I'd be a little careful though & keep it cold while mixing
with efficient stirring).  However in my humble opinion why
bother?  The small amount of bleach that you use to sterilize your
equipment is hardly environmentally significant.  If you're really
worried about it why not just use the peroxide solution?  H2O2
itself is a pretty good disinfectant, although I don't know if it
efficiently kills the organisms that your worried about in brewing.

Excuse me while I slip into my asbestos suit.

	Leave the suit behind.  My concern was partly due to the current 
Net wisdom that bleach is bad for stainless kegs.  However, I just looked 
up the reaction index at the back of the Cole Parmer catalogue, and both 
Acetic acid and peroxide are bad, while bleach is listed as "No effect".  
Can anyone elaborate?

*******
Jay Vanni writes:
> Now, I feel ready to try something more advanced.  I wonder if anyone has
a recipe that will yield something resembling Anchor Steam beer  (If
mentioning this brand name is against the rules, please forgive me, I'm new).
Equipment, techniques, and ingredients are no boundary for me - I just want
to try imitating this beer.  Any help?

	2 row pale malt, a heafty dose of crstal, bitter with Perle, finish 
with Cascade.  Use Wyeast California Lager yeast, fermented at 62 F.  Lots 
of hop is the key.  There are a few Anchor Steam recipes in Cat's Meow you 
can look up.  Last time I tried Anchor, I noticed a distinct similarity to 
Young's Special London Ale, with a rich maltiness, though I didn't do a     
side-by-side.
____________   
Ed Hitchcock/Dept of Anatomy & Neurobiology/Dalhousie University/Halifax NS
ech at ac.dal.ca   +-----------------------------------------+
		|   Never trust a statement that begins:  |
		|     "I'm not racist, but..."		  |
		+-----------------------------------------+
	Diversity in all things.  Especially beer.

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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 93 13:26:17 -0400
From: Ron Natalie <ron at bds.com>
Subject:  fermentation temp monitoring/cold room/bandwidth

  What I did is bought some temperature-sensitive LCD type thingies ('thingies'
  is a technical term) that I stick to the side of my carboys, 
  I think Sheaf & Vine brewing supplies (They're on the net, great service &
  prices, I don't work there, etc. etc. etc.) have these,

My local brewing store has them, but since I have similar things on my fish
tanks (as a matter of fact, before I saw them being sold for brewing I
attempted to peel one off my fish tank and stick it to the fermenter).
You might try your local pet store.

 -Ron

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Date: Mon, 06 Sep 93 14:56:10 EDT
From: jayv379877 at aol.com
Subject: Pressure Regulators

I'll soon try my hand at brewing some draft beer.  Here's a question re:the
use of a pressure regulator.  (Thanks for the posting Al)

I have what I think is a pressure regulator.  I obtained it from my last job
a couple of years ago from a pile of stuff to be thrown out, thinking I may
need it someday (deja brew?).  Physically it is a 2 1/2" dia brass body with
5 evenly spaced pipe threads tapped around the perimeter.  Into each are
screwed the following: a 0-4000 psi gauge, a 0-30 psi gauge, a relief valve
(stamped as such), a large fitting, and a small fitting.  A "T" handle sticks
out the front.  A label on it says, "NITROGEN AND INERT GASSES."  It's made
by the Victor Equipment Company, and looks to be part no. SR 250 A.  Is this
what I want?  If so, should I have it tested for reliability or accuracy? 
Should it be cleaned?  Anything else?

Jay Vanni

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Date: Mon,  6 Sep 93 15:33:42 CDT
From: philb at pro-storm.metronet.com (Phil Brushaber)
Subject: Lagering Time In Secondary Fermenter

It used to be when I would brew Lagers I would primary in glass 
for a couple of weeks at 50 degrees, then transfer to a         
Cornelius Keg for secondary at 40 degrees.                      
        With summer's heat my brewing slowed down. As a result  
my "primary" refrigerator became a secondary refrigerator. This 
time I did my secondary in glass where I could monitor          
the progress. After a two week primary, then a four week        
secondary I could still see a few bubbles rising in the glass.  
        I thought my secondary was finished, but when I         
boosted the temperature from 50 to 60 degrees (to execute a     
diacytal rest) the fermenting took off again. So much so that
the bubbles proceeded to fill up my airlock!
        Two questions fellow "Lagermeisters"...
        1. All the sources I read said that secondary 
should take place at 50 degrees. My experience would lead me
to belive this is too low.
        2. How long should one typically expect a secondary
to take? When is it safe to bottle or keg?


- -----
Internet: philb at pro-storm.metronet.com
    UUCP: metronet.com!pro-storm!philb
  Bitnet: philb%pro-storm.metronet.com at nosc.mil


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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 93 19:16 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: TRUE-BAY, BIG BUCKS

 
 >From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
 >Subject: Trub: you say potatoe...
 
 >Now, I'm all for understanding the origins of things, but just because
 a word is pronounced one way in Germany does not mean that it needs to
 be mimicked here.
 
 Thought I would add a little confusion here.  On saturday I attended a lawn 
 party at which my wife and I were the only ones who could not speak German 
 and many attendees could speak no English.  I figured this was a good place 
 to settle the issue and as I needed a conversations starter, I surveyed them 
 on the word "trub", spelling it every way I have seen it.
 
 The concensus was.....  true-bay, just like it looks but with the 'r' rolled 
 accent on the first syllable..
 
 The root or the word was agreed to have something to do with clouds.
 
 >From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
 >Subject: keg overcarbonation
  
 >Jack, perhaps your problem with kegs getting overcarbonated is because
 the beer hasn't actually finished fermenting.  The fact that it is
 happening with (mostly) lagers, which can take much longer than ales
 to ferment out, might be an indication.
 
 This is possible but I would think by the time I keg them, there aint much 
 left.  Furthermore, if I just left it sit, unattended for weeks, I could 
 agree but as I monitor the pressure regularly on all kegs and adjust as 
 needed, I  wouldn't think it would make any difference whether the CO2 came 
 from fermentation or the tank.   But I will keep it in mind.  For the time 
 being, I am reducing my dispensing pressure to around five lbs and using
 1/4" tubing till I see which way the wind blows.
 
 >From: akcs.wally at vpnet.chi.il.us (John Walaszek)
 >Subject: Older Chest Freezers
 
 > Another question, if the freezer is fairly full with 30-40 gallons of brew 
 at 45-50 degrees, does the temperature stay fairly constant and require the 
 compressor to not kick on that often
 
 Keep in mind that it was designed to keep several hundred pounds of meat at 
 temperatures near zero. It is loafing when used for beer and will probably 
 last forever.
 
 >Has anyone had their electric bill double or triple after
 setting up a chest freezer beer cooler?
 
 In the hottest weather, mine runs about 5 hrs per day, set at 40F.  It draws 
 about 4 amps which works out to about 2.2 KWH or about 30 cents per day at 
 Chicago rates.
 
 .........
 
 I have nothing further to add on the netequette front other than passing on 
 the data that the mail is running 10:1 in favor of serializing long articles 
 and debugging FAQs via email.
 
 js


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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 93 17:23 CDT
From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
Subject: PIZZA AND BEER FAQ PART 1

BEER AND PIZZA FAQ  (Part 1 of 29)
 
 
Q0001:  Which pizza goes best with an Imperial Stout?
 
A0001:  Don't be a twit.  Anybody who knows anything about beer
will tell you that drinking an Imperial Stout leaves you little
room for anything else.
 
=====
 
Q0002:  My wife says that all this pizza and beer is making me fat. 
Is this a bad thing?
 
A0001:  All homebrewers reach this "crossroad" at some point in
their lives.  The real question you have to ask yourself is: do I
want to stay slim and get laid or do I want to enjoy life?  
 
=====
 
Q0003:  Does Sierra Nevada Pale Ale compliment a pineapple and
Canadian bacon pizza?
 
A0003:  Of course.
 
=====
 
Q0004:  I find that a Pils Urquel is too delicate for a pizza with
the works (including anchovies).  Is there a beer that can stand up
to such a gastronomic deluge?
 
A0004:  Yes.  Weizens are a good choice as are smoked beers.  The
added benefit is that those late-night belches are exquisite.
 
=====
 
Q0005:  I saw Kathy Ireland on the cover of an old issue of
Zymurgy.  Do you think she and Chuck, you know, did it?
 
A0005:  Many have speculated that since Charlie Papazian has
remained slim then he must have made the wrong choice at the
Homebrewer's Crossroad of Life.
 
=====
 
Q0006:  I recently relocated to the Pacific Northwest.  Having been
born and raised in Chicago I find these new beers way too bitter. 
What's the deal?
 
A0006:  Indigenous populants of the Pacific Northwest (IPPN) have
a misplaced sense of hopping rates.  Get used to it.  Furthermore,
never confront them about it as they tend to be overly sensitive.
 

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Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1993 01:10:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: KONSTANTINE at delphi.com
Subject: 

Howdy all,

  I'm new to the digest and I love all the info that's available.  I'm 
looking for a recipe for Heather Ale and I was wondering if anyone 
knows where I can find one.  Thanks again.

            B*B,
              Konstantine.

konstantine at delphi.com

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1220, 09/07/93