FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Hops FAQ, Part 2/5 (npyle)
  Re: yeasts (Jim Busch)
  You can't judge a beer by the bottle, but... (John Adams)
  grain storage ("Anton Verhulst")
  CF Chiller Effects on Hop Character ("Robert H. Reed")
  milling red hard spring wheat (Robert Schultz)
  Miscelaneous (Ulick Stafford)
  Steam injection (npyle)
  steam injection ("Anton Verhulst")
  Requesting Rum Distillation info (Domenick Venezia)
  Beer Drinks (Brad Roach)
  Chillers (Jack Schmidling)
  Show and Tell on my UK trip (Samuel Smith's) ("Bob Jones")
  Beer Shelf Life (Tom Schwendler)
  Hop Storage & Growth/Quaff & Stir (COYOTE)
  Growing Hops (Philip Proefrock)
  Pitching large yeast starters ("Bob Jones")
  Late Hops vs. Chiller, Homegrown Hops (Mark Garetz)
  Carboy Alert! ("Anthony Johnston")
  Favorite Beer Cocktail ("Stephen Schember")
  doppelbock (Michael Hohnbaum)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 8:30:01 MDT
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Hops FAQ, Part 2/5

Hops FAQ, Part 2/5:
- --
 
Q: Should I use pellets, or plugs, or loose hops?

A: Much has been written about what form of hops should be used. Loose hops are
just that:  loose cones which have been dried after picking.  Plugs are loose
hops which have been subsequently pressed into a bung, generally in 0.5 oz.
sizes.  Pellets are loose hops which have been ground to a fine powder and
then pressed into rabbit-food-sized pellets.

LOOSE HOPS
Advantages:  They are the most natural form of the ingredient.  They float,
which is good for siphoning out from under, and form a natural filter bed.
When they are fresh, they beat all others in terms of aromatic hop oils.

Disadvantages:  They float, so some contact with a still wort (as in dry
hopping) is lost, when compared to pellets.  This problem can be overcome,
though by using weighted hop bags, or it can be ignored.  Since they are loose,
exposure to air is the greatest and they lose quality quickly when compared to
the other forms of hops.  When stored in vaccuum-sealed or CO2 or nitrogen
purged Oxygen barrier bags or jars, this problem can be avoided.  They are
bulkier than other forms.

PLUGS
Advantages:  Are nearly the same as loose hops, in that, when hydrated, they
become whole hop cones again.  Like loose hops, they float.  Unlike loose hops,
they are better protected from air.

Disadvantages:  Few hop varieties come in this form.  Currently, any domestic
varieties are first shipped to England where they are made into plugs and then
shipped back to the U.S.  This may negate any freshness advantage they have
over loose hops (for U.S. varieties)  It is difficult, but not impossible to
separate into increments smaller than 0.5 oz.

PELLETS
Advantages:  Convenient to measure and have the best protection from air.  They
sink, so they get maximum contact in a still wort, as when used for dry
hopping.  This advantage may be mitigated though, if they are subsequently
covered with dead yeast, so later additions are recommended.  They reportedly
contribute 10% more alpha acids to the wort because of maximized surface area,
so are a more efficient use of this relatively expensive ingredient.  They are
generally available in more varieties and are generally a more consistent
product.

Disadvantages:  They sink, so it is sometimes difficult to avoid them when
siphoning.  The extra processing may reduce/change hop aromatics.

Given the pros and cons listed, the choice of which form of hop to use in a
certain application is up the individual brewer.

- --

Q:  What are AAU, HBU, and IBU's?

A:  Alpha Acid Units (AAU) and Homebrew Bittering Units (HBU) are the same.
For the sake of discussion we will use AAU's, which are calculated as follows:
AAU = AA * W

where AA = alpha acid % provided with the hops
       W = weight of the hops in ounces

The units of AAU's would be "percent-ounces".  They are usually considered
"unit-less".  It is generally assumed that, when using AAU or HBU, the batch
size is the standard homebrewing unit of 5 gallons.  If a beer is said to have
10 AAU's of bitterness in it, and it is a 5 gallon batch, there would probably
be no confusion.  If on the other hand, it is a 10 gallon batch, there is
actually half the AAU's per gallon when compared to the 5 gallon batch and the
beer would be quite different.  Another drawback to using AAU's is that they
don't consider the utilization obtained from long, intermediate, or short boil
times.  Fudge factors are sometimes added but at best they offer a rough
approximation.

To solve these problems, the International Bittering Unit (IBU) may be used.
With it, the brewer can get a more accurate approximation of the bitterness
given up by a given quantity of a given AA hop for a given boil time.  It is
batch size dependent so that a 5 gallon batch with 29 IBU's has the same
bitterness as a 50 barrel batch with 29 IBU's.  The equations are commonly
quoted from Jackie Rager's article in the Zymurgy "Hops and Beer" Special
Edition published in 1990.  The tables and formulae follow:

Boiling Time (minutes)   % Utilization
- ----------------------   -------------
less than 5                  5.0
 6 - 10                      6.0
11 - 15                      8.0
16 - 20                     10.1
21 - 25                     12.1
26 - 30                     15.3
31 - 35                     18.8
36 - 40                     22.8
41 - 45                     26.9
46 - 50                     28.1
51 - 60                     30.0

Utilization can be reduced to the following smooth function, as opposed to the
table, which produces many discontinuous lines.  Either can be used with
sufficient accuracy for the homebrewing operation.

%UTILIZATION = 18.10907 + 13.86204 * hyptan[(MINUTES - 31.32275) / 18.26774]
(Of course, you can drop some of those significant figures.)

    If the gravity of the boil exceeds 1.050:
ADJUSTMENT = (BOIL_GRAVITY - 1.050) / 0.2
    otherwise,
ADJUSTMENT = 0

IBU_PER_OZ  = %UTILIZATION * %ALPHA * 7462 / (VOLUME * (1 + ADJUSTMENT));
    UTILIZATION is the percent alpha acids expressed as a decimal fraction
    ALPHA is the percent alpha acids expressed as a decimal fraction
    VOLUME is the final number of gallons in the batch (usually 5).

    To calculate IBU's if you know the number of ounces of hops to be used:
IBU = OUNCES * IBU_PER_OZ
    To predict the number of ounces needed to hit a target IBU:
OUNCES = IBU / IBU_PER_OZ

Jackie Rager's numbers have been used successfully by hundreds of homebrewers
and provide a consistent base with which to work.  It is apparent that his
constant 7462, derived from metric to US conversion, is actually closer to
7490.  The ADJUSTMENT factor could be questioned as well, as it is
intuitively obvious that a gravity of 1.049 does not affect utilization
exactly the same as a gravity of 1.000 (water).  It is assumed that the
utilization table is corrected for this assumption and/or the difference is
small enough that it has little effect on the final bitterness of the beer.

Note also that Mr. Rager's numbers are often used for pellet hops thrown loose
in the boil.  It is common to add 10% more hops if used in a hop bag, and 10%
more than that if loose hops or plugs are used.

It has been reported that since iso-alpha acids possess a slight electrical
charge, they can be lost in many ways.  Among these are absorption into the
yeast cell walls (and subsequent removal of the yeast), attachment to
coagulating proteins (and subsequent removal of this trub), attachment to
filters, etc.  It is unclear if Mr. Rager's utilization numbers have assumed
these losses.  A revised utilization table has been presented by Mark Garetz
and can be used if desired.  It is shown below for reference.

Boiling Time (minutes)   % Utilization
                         (adjusted for
                         average yeast)
- ----------------------   -------------
less than 5                   0.0
 6 - 10                       0.0
11 - 15                       1.0
16 - 20                       4.0
21 - 25                       6.0
26 - 30                      11.0
31 - 35                      13.0
36 - 40                      19.0
41 - 45                      23.0
46 - 50                      24.0
51 - 60                      25.0

The same IBU formulae from above can be used with this table.  It represents
one of the many arguable topics of hops in homebrewing.

- --

Q:  How do I store my hops?

A:  At as low a temperature as possible, likely to be in your freezer.  Also,
attempt to remove as much air as possible from the package and use airtight,
preferably oxygen-barrier packages.

- --
End part 2/5

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 10:40:04 -0500 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: yeasts

> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 13:29:18 MDT
> From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
> Subject: Late Kettle Hop Additions
> 
 I've been thinking recently about hop additions (all this Hops FAQ stuff has
 forced me to think about some of this stuff).  I just realized that there is an
 inherent advantage to immersion chillers (my old method) over counter-flow
 chillers (my current method).  Yes, the immersion chiller leaves the cold break
 in the kettle but it does something else that I have not seen discussed in this
 forum.
 
 With the counter-flow chiller the wort and hops remain near 100C the entire
 time the wort is being chilled.  From experience I know the kettle is still
 extremely hot 20 minutes after turning off the flame.  I would bet that
 finishing hops act more like flavoring hops and that flavoring hops act more
 like bittering hops with a counter-flow.  Can anyone verify these assumptions?
 Do you know of any commercial brewers who use immersion chillers (they clearly
 have _some_ advantages)?  Probably not since immersion chillers are less
 efficient and I know of few commercial brewers (even micros) who care a lot
 about hop aroma.
 
 This is certainly true, the time/temp can be long and high.  Some pro and
 not pro brewers add finish hops to the whirlpool in an effort to get more
 aromatics in the beer.  I whirlpool in the kettle, so when I add late hops,
 it does sit at 200+F for the 15 min whirlpool, and subsequent 35 min chill.
 You will still end up with aromatics, but if you want more, like I do in 
 many beers, there is no substitute for dry hopping.

> ------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 12:34:58 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
> Subject: Yeast nutrients/pitching
> 
> 
> My goal in starting this enquiry was to somehow get my pitching rate into an
> acceptable range while NOT being forced to pitch a half gallon or more of 
> some other wort into a carefully designed recipe.  Remember a half gallon is
> 10% of a 5 gallon batch and such a volume will affect your results.  I would
> like to do an adequate pitch in about a pint of starter.  Also, I wanted  
> to avoid having to save and pitch yeast slurry from previous batches (Hey,
> I want it all).  
> 
> Generally, I pitch a pint starter (very seriously underpitching) and if I 
> can get 10 times the pitching rate by using a little YNB (provided the yeast 
> characteristics remain stable) I figure it's worth it.  
> 
> If one is not reusing slurry but using a starter what's involved in getting
> an adequate lager pitch of 10-15x10**6 cells/ml in a 5 gallon batch?

Well, if dilution of the bitter wort is an issue, then decant the still 
beer off of the starter/yeast slurry.  If you dont have enough slurry, add
more fresh wort, let ferment out, and decant.  Mike Sharp is a big pro-
ponnent of pitching after high krausen, so the ferment and decant method
makes sense.  With cell densities, you are kinda forced into successive 
steps up to get the cell count up, or reuse yeast from a previous ferment.

> > What kind of lag time did he get?  I'll bet it was on the order of 10-12
> > hours, not bad, but greater than optimum. 
> 
> With Wyeast Chico Ale strain he got just what Dan expected, 10-12 hrs.  
> However, with Wyeast London Ale strain he got a 3 hour lag.
> 
> Speaking of lag time, how exactly are we determining the end of lag time?
> For my own purposes I have defined the EOLT as 2 bubbles/minute from my
> airlock, but this may be misleading in either direction.  Jim?  Dan? fg
> 
3 hours is really great!  I measure the transition by visable krausen on
the top of the wort.  With my brew schedule, I never see the transition, 
since I usually cast out into the fermenter at 10PM, pump oxygen for about
2 hours, and go to bed.  By 7AM, the ferment is usually crawling out and 
over the floor!  Got to get a bigger fermenter :-)
> 
> In fact, I think its a pretty darn good one if you are brewing outside
> and pipe your wort into the basement.  Mount that on the basement wall
> and you don't have to worry about hauling it around, setting it set up
> or it being in the way.  I'd encourage you to make it at tell us how it
> works... 

This is how I do it.  I have a 12 foot prechiller counterflow from the 
kettle to the pipeline interface.  This feeds 50 feet of counterflow 
pipeline, second stage, underground, into basement, cross basement, to 
fermentation area, where it goes through 15 feet of ice bath, ball valve
into fermenter.  I over-engineered it for several reasons:
speed, high tap water temp in summer, and hopes of lagering some day.
At the end of the transfer, I hook up 175+F water from my hot liquor 
tank and rinse the pipeline, often diluting the cast out wort.

> Subject: Steam injection
> 
> I recently watched a fellow homebrewer use what I consider an extremely
> clever gadget.  He had an ordinary household pressure cooker that he
> modified to run a steam line out through a ball valve.  By simply injecting
> live, low pressure steam into the bottom of his picnic cooler mash tun while
> stirring the mash, he was able to raise the temperature to the desired point
> very quickly.  He also used the steam to heat his sparge water in the same
> way.  It all seemed so simple and logical that I wondered why I hadn't seen
> it mentioned before.
>  
> Has anyone experimented with this type of setup?  What were the pros and
> cons?
>  
Sounds dangerous to me.  How do you know when it is empty?


Best,
Jim Busch

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 08:37:28 -0600
From: John Adams <j_adams at hpfcjca.sde.hp.com>
Subject: You can't judge a beer by the bottle, but...

Good point.  If you look in any copy of Zymergy you will find a few 
companies that produce custom labels but I've never seen anyone who makes caps,
bottles, or wooden crates.

Personally I make my own labels using a graphics editor, a ray-tracer,
a good collection of gif/jpeg "clip art" of beer labels, and a color printer.

I would also like to find an outfit that produces custom beer coasters.


John Adams

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 10:46:34 EDT
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: grain storage


garti at mrg.xyplex.com (Mark Garti) asks:

>what are people using to store their grain in?
>how long, under good conditions, will the grain be
>fresh?  besides rats, are there any problems associated
>with buying and keeping 50 lbs of grain?
>mrgarti at xyplex.com

I store all my specialty grains in a 48 quart picnic cooler (I already have
a good lauter tun :-).  I find this really effective for storing small (1 to
5 pound bags of crystal, roasted, and other malts.  As for base malts, I still
don't have a good method for storage.  I usually by 55 pound bags of Munton
& Fison malts and their bags are plastic lined.  As long as you close the
top well, insects aren't a problem.  Rats are another matter.  With 3 cats
in the house, rodents are not my concern :-) but they could get into that bag
with no problem at all.  A good solution might be a heavy duty 30 gallon
trash container with a tight fitting lid.


- --Tony Verhulst

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 10:54:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Robert H. Reed" <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: CF Chiller Effects on Hop Character


Norm Pyle writes:

> With the counter-flow chiller the wort and hops remain near 100C the entire
> time the wort is being chilled.  From experience I know the kettle is still
> extremely hot 20 minutes after turning off the flame.  I would bet that
> finishing hops act more like flavoring hops and that flavoring hops act more
> like bittering hops with a counter-flow.  Can anyone verify these assumptions?
 <snip> 
> I may alter my procedure a little bit to compensate for this.  I haven't yet
> decided how.  Suggestions?

I noticed a similar change in late hop character when I changed to using a CF
chiller: I found that to obtain the same hop flavor and aroma, I had to add 
*more* hops *later* in the process as compared to my previous process that
used an immersion chiller.  One technique that I have found useful is to add
hops *during* the runoff.  After my boil is complete, I stir the wort vigorously
and wait 15 min for the trub and hops to settle.  During the runoff - about 
25 min for 5.5 gal - I typically add whole hops in one or two additions.  This
has improved the intensity of my late hop character.  I use a slotted pick-up
tube in the boiler to avoid clogging the chiller.

I feel the CF chiller has pros and cons:  I get a much better cold break with
my CF unit using well water.  My wort exit temp is ~55-60F. Another
benefit is that, given that my chiller and settling tank are disinfected, there
is very little risk of infection because the wort in my boiler is still above
160F at the end of runoff.  On the downside, one must deal with the cold break
in the fermentor and the late hop character is decreased in the 30-40 min.
the wort remains in the boiler.

Rob Reed

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 09:13:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Schultz <Robert.Schultz at usask.ca>
Subject: milling red hard spring wheat

	I attempted Phil Seitz's  Beligian White Ale on the weekend.  I now
know what Phil meant by grinding 5 lbs of wheat on a Corona.
	How do the roller mills perform on the hard unmalted grains (wheat, rye,
rice)?  Barley and oats are fairly soft.


Rob.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Robert.Schultz at usask.ca, University Studies Group, University of Saskatchewan~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ "I'm going off half-cocked? I'm going off half-cocked? ...                   ~
~  Well, Mother was right - You can't argue with a shotgun."     - Gary Larson ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 10:53:41 EST
From: Ulick Stafford <ulick at michaelangelo.helios.nd.edu>
Subject: Miscelaneous


With HBD bunged up worse than my sink was last week, should people be
lecturing about humor or criticizing the humorless in the digest
rather than by email?

Re brewing.  Peter Just asks about lagering in bottle vs carboy (or keg).
The advantage of the latter is clarity - and very little sediment, but
a disadvantage is fresh yeast should be added.  The advantage of the former
is timesaving and less trouble with equipment.  However, I think the advantages
of bulk conditioning outweigh the trouble involved (1255).

Robert Urweiler asks about labels.  There was an article in the last Zymurgy,
which was nearly more useful than the entire last BT (IMHO).  Was anyone
else disappointed with it after their first 2 excellent issues?

Scott Weisler resonds to greg with criticism of a PVC pipe design wort chiller.
The problems mentioned are easily overcome with baffles, and the design can
be as or more effective than the garden hose method because the flow is more 
turbulent.  I am considering such a device.  However the outer part will
be metal - not PVC - possibly and old paint can or something thicker with
bulhead fittings and pieces of scrap metal for baffles.  Sterilize by
bunging the whole thing in the oven for half an hour.  Pity one can't buy a
nice small shell and tube heat exchanger cheaply.

Ulick Stafford - no sig to conserve bandwidth

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 9:55:19 MDT
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Steam injection

Ed Westemeier mentions steam injection for heating sparge water and for step
mashes.  It sounds fine for sparge water heating (although I can think of more
efficient means of heat transfer).  My first thought in using it for stepping
up mash temperature is Hot Side Aeration.  This may or may not be a problem,
though, on second thought.  Does steam contain lots of free oxygen?  It is not
like hot water which can contain dissolved oxygen, but it is pushing along lots
of (hot) air with it.

I suspect it is not a good idea to use steam directly but it gives me an idea
for putting a radiator in my cooler/mash tun.  This way you could add heat to
the cooler for step mashes without the complications of electricity (for some
reason a direct propane flame doesn't seem like a good idea).  I have lots of
3/8" copper tubing in the garage, hmmm...

norm

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 12:05:45 EDT
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: steam injection


Ed Westemeier writes:

>I recently watched a fellow homebrewer use what I consider an extremely
>clever gadget.  He had an ordinary household pressure cooker that he
>modified to run a steam line out through a ball valve.  By simply injecting
>live, low pressure steam into the bottom of his picnic cooler mash tun while
>stirring the mash, he was able to raise the temperature to the desired point
>very quickly.......

This, sir, is just too wonderful for words. Thank you.
BTW, what kind of tubing was being used?

- --Tony Verhulst

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 09:16:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Requesting Rum Distillation info

I realize this is a forum for BREWING but the recent mini-thread on 
distillation indicated to me there may be some expertise in HBD-land
that I could tap.  I have been presented with a possible commercial
endeavor and am looking for *REAL* information (with references) on the
subject of distillation of spirits, particularly rum.  Please use
private Email.  Thanks.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
venezia at zgi.com





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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 09:41:56 PDT
From: b_roach at qlc.com (Brad Roach)
Subject: Beer Drinks


  I don't know if this qualifies as a beer drink, but when I make margaritas
I always add alittle beer before blending.

  The advantages are:  1) the beer tends to hide the Tequila taste, and  
2) makes the margaritas more foamy.

   __                      
  /_/             /             
 /  \  /_  __  __/              
/___/_/ (_(_<_(_/               




   

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 12:20 CDT
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Chillers

 
 >From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
 >Subject: Late Kettle Hop Additions
 
 >I've been thinking recently about hop additions (all this Hops FAQ stuff has
 forced me to think about some of this stuff)... The immersion chiller cools 
 the wort and hops fairly quickly from 100C to around 50C (maybe 10 minutes).  
 The late kettle additions are boiled for a short time (1-10 minutes) and then 
 within 10 more minutes they are at a relatively low temperature (50C).  
 
 It is unfortunate that those who do not read rec.crafts.brewing missed the 
 recent great debate on immersion vs counter-flow chillers.  Kinney Bauman did 
 an admirable job of defending counter-flow in light of its obvious 
 shortcomings and naturally lost to the Lighthouse of Wisdom and Truth.
 
 I won't re-hash the whole argument here but in summary, not a single, 
 UNARGUABLE advantage could be brought in defense of counter-flow for home 
 brewers and most of the good reasons are only valid in large scale brewing.  
 The only advantage to homebrewers was the OPINION that chilling faster made 
 for clearer beer but no one had come up with any documentation to prove the 
 point.
 
 Before I get into the virtues of immersion chilling, it is necessary to point 
 out that I would no more use a poorly designed immersion chiller than a 
 poorly designed anythingelse and most people do not have proper immersion 
 chillers.  Mine is installed in the lid of the kettle with quick disconnects 
 to water and drain lines.  Once the lid and chiller are in place, they can 
 stay there for hours or days without risk of contamination or loss of aroma 
 laden vapor.
 
 Now, ponder the possibilities this allows.  You have an infinite number of 
 post boil hopping schedules that you can play with.  For example, shut off 
 the heat, put on the lid and throw in some hops.  This hops is at near boil 
 temp which kills that herbal taste but the vapor and aroma can not escape.  
 When you chill it down, the vapor and aroma are re-absorbed by the wort.  
 Let's say you think that some shops should be added at 163.794 degs F and 
 allowed to natually cool with the wort.  No problem either.  Maybe you want 
 to add some every 10 degs as it cools or how bout chilling it down right away 
 and adding it at pitching temp but letting it sit in the kettle for 24 hours 
 to absorb the flavor.  There are no end of possibilities to toy with.
 
 >Do you know of any commercial brewers who use immersion chillers (they 
 clearly have _some_ advantages)? 
 
 They have only one disadvantage.... they are ponderous and totally 
 impractical in a large operation.   They require a removable lid to get it 
 out or an impossible cleaning headache if installed permentantly in the 
 kettle.  Counterflow chillers of a modest size can chill any amount of wort 
 given enough time.
 
 It is another good example of what can go wrong when people simply scale down 
 what they see in a commercial operation and assume it must be better for 
 homebrewers.  The counter-flow "snobs" are simply wrong on this one.
 
 BTW, you mentioned that the kettle stays hot awhile with the counterflow 
 anyway but that is not the argument.  There is no magic as to how long the 
 wort stays hot.  The issue CAN be, how hot?  If it falls below pasturization 
 temp and is open to the air, there is a risk of contamination.  If it stays 
 near boiling, it is no worse than extending the boil that amount of time.  
 And keep in mind that PU simply air cools the wort till it reaches lower 
 temps.
 
 The counter-flow afficinados claim that it is the instantaneous chilling of 
 each quantum of wort as it passes through the chiller that does the magic.  
 While this is certainly something one can not do with immersion chilling, no 
 one, (at least in that discussion) was able to prove that it really makes any 
 difference.   Judging from the reputation of PU, it doesn't seem to have 
 anything to do with how long it takes to get from boiling to 150F, so it 
 needs to be proven that fast chilling from there to pitching temp is 
 critical.
 
 To me, the most obvious disadvantage of the counter-flow chiller is that most 
 of what would have stayed behind in the kettle ends up in the fermenter 
 unless one does an additional settling step.
 
 So, I hereby challange the counter-flowers to start your engines....
 
 js
 

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 10:38:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Bob Jones" <bjones at novax.llnl.gov>
Subject: Show and Tell on my UK trip (Samuel Smith's)

Thought I would add a few more interesting observations about my recent UK
trip. I dropped in at Samuel Smith's brewery in the afternoon an ask about
a tour. They said they were all booked up. I mentioned I was a brewer from
the states and the receptionist made a phone call and I was in. The tour
was at 7pm that evening. My wife and I showed up in the adjoining pub with
about 12 other people. Our tour began in the tack room. That's where they
keep all the hardware for their horses. We heard all the details about
their award winning horses before we went outside to see and feed and pet
one of them. These are Shires, we're talking big horses here. I could just
see over the horses back. I'm 5'8". Sam Smith's does no advertising and
depends on their horses, which they show around everywhere, and public good
will for their advertising. It seems to work. Afterward we entered the brew
house and I got to see those famous Yorkshire slate squares I have heard so
much about. I finally understand these damn things. One of them was empty
and several of them were in full blown fermentation. They look like this...



                     |          A          |
                     |                     |
                     |------/      \-------| divider
                     |                     |
                     |          B          |
                     |---------------------|


The unfermented wort is filled in chamber B just below the divider. As the
fermentation proceeds, the foam and yeast are pushed up into chamber A.
Because there is the cone shaped thing is the center, the yeast is skimmed
from the beer. After a day of fermentation, they pump all the liquid from B
back to A. This is just to rouse the fermentation. After this they just let
the skimming action take place. Sort of neat, huh. I have no idea how they
clean the B chamber. They told me they never repitch their yeast. They
always grow up a fresh batch. I got to see their impressive steam generator
and their gorgeous copper kettles. Then we entered the lager brewery. Yep
you heard me right. They brew lagers under special contract for Ayinger.
The lager brewhouse had a kettle and mash tun that was gigantic. We saw the
other standard brew stuff, and made our way to the pump room. It is tucked
away under the brewery. You have to almost crawl to get there. It was
easier when leaving :->. We drank their cask ales and saw a movie. After a
few beers I found myself behind the bar pulling my own beers with those
great beer engines. Lots of fun! I tasted NO diacetyl in any of their
beers. I mentioned the skunkyness we get in their beers in the states due
to their use of clear bottles for some beers. They seemed amazed.

Sam Smith's is located in the town of Tadcaster about 30 mins outside of
York. There are about 4 breweries in Tadcaster, Bass, Magnet, Sam Smith's
and John Smith's. All the breweries located there because of the water
quality (the water is very hard). There is alot of rivalry between Sam
Smith's and John Smith's. John was a brother and split off another brewery.
Sort of a family outcast. The John Smith's brewery was sucked up by Courage
in 1970. All of Sam Smith's beers I tasted in England were very good. I had
a pint of their Museum ale in London. It had a distinct woody character to
it. It was drawn from a wooden cask. The taste was sort of a young, green
woody character. Maybe some of you brewers that have experimented with wood
chips in your IPA's would know what I mean. This was not an IPA, however.


Cheers,
Bob Jones

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 10:54:52 EDT
From: softdesk!suez!trs at uunet.UU.NET (Tom Schwendler)
Subject: Beer Shelf Life


Hello brewers,

I just read that sediment beers (beers with yeast sediment) have a shelf
life of only 3 months.  I know I have kept bottles longer than that, but
does anyone know what the shelf life of homebrewed beer is?  Let's say
assuming you are keeping the beer in a cool dark place, how long should
it store without turning sour, or acidic?  Other than filtration or
pasturization, are there ways the homebrewer can increase the shelf life
of bottled beer?

Thanks for your help,

trs at softdesk.com
Tom Schwendler
Structural Product Manager
Softdesk, Inc.

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 12:44:25 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Hop Storage & Growth/Quaff & Stir

***************************
Hop Forms- Stability....
> Also, regarding the type, pellets tend to retain more of everything
(AA and aromatics) than plugs, which retain more of everything than whole.
It's all a matter of exposed surface area.

*   Just a comment here: One of the disadvatages (not to open a can of
worms!  Old debate I know!) to pellets involves the process of 
pelletization.  This process involves physical abuse, and some temp.
stress to the hops.  This results in some loss of aromatic qualities
from the hop as compared to fresh cones.  Plugs are a good in between
since the hops are not first chopped, but just pressed into pellets.
So to say that " pellets tend to retain more of everything" is a bit
misleading.  In terms of storage...YES,  in terms of qualities lost 
from the time of harvest thru processing, to the store,  NO.
    It is true that handling of flake hops (cones) does have the 
potential to reduce quality mroe than handling of pellets. I commonly
find a collection of yellow crystals at the bottom of my flake hop 
bags.  So.....my solution.  Grow my own!  See note below....
***************************
From: Philip Proefrock <PSPROEFR at MIAMIU.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:      Growing Hops

>I am interested in growing my own hops for use in my homebrew.  (I don't
plan to use this exclusively, but it would be nice to have hops I had
grown in the beer that I brew.  I expect I would only use the homegrown
hops for one part of the process, say boiling,   and will continue to
buy other varieties for flavor/aroma.)  Does anyone else do this?  Can
you provide some pointers, suggestions as to where I can find seedlings
or seeds, etc.?  What varieties will grow best in the midwest?o I hope
to get starters going indoors this fall, so that I can get them growing
this coming spring.

*   Hop Growing Experience (1 year- first season, but what a thrill!)
"exclusively"-  You'd need a BIG vine yard to keep up- 1 harvest to last
all year.  That's asking a lot.  BUt maybe after a few years.
"boiling"-  Personally I feel I get the best advantage out of the fresh-
ness of my homegrown hops by utilizing them at finishing.  BOUQUET!!!!
Plus I am able to spread out there use more that way.  

Planting Time:  Early spring.  March-May depending on location.
Form of starts:  Rhizomes-  segments of roots with sprouts. No Seeds!
(I actually found a seed in one of my cones. I don't know what fertilized
it, but it was a rather odd find! Haven't tried growing it. )
Female plants are propogated.  Males not found- except on research plots.  
Plan on some TALL vines.  Very fast growing!  Beautiful sight to watch.
You can actually OBSERVE growth.  3 inches per day at the peak! 
The way to plant is dig a plot- fertilize/mulch, and lay the 
rhizome in a hole.  Protect from frost until things warm up.
No point in starting them inside.  Just count on several years
till "great growth and production" is observed. Well worth it!

I planted 4 varieties: 
    Cascade- Good grower. Excellent production. Hardy. BIG cones!
    Chinook- not too impressive.  A friend had the reverse of these 2
    Mnt Hood- 2nd best growth.  Yummy cones. Also quite hardy
    Perle- Not too impressive.  A bit better than Chinook. I like
    the hop though.
NOTE: This was the first year.  Subsequent years will improve dramatically
I did have quite a bit of pest problems, but the cascade was able to 
tough it out!  I'm looking forward to next year! Can't wait till the 
start up again!

I got starts from FreshHops in Philomath OR. 503-929-2736. No connection.
Just a happy customer.  There are other sources. Write to them or call
and they will inform you when the starts are ready for shipment.
It's about 2-4 $ rhizome.  I used 2/hill.  There is a book on Growing
Hops- dont have the author at hand.  It's an ok book. More of a 
personal account than a hard-fast guide.  Some good info. He did
do some research for it. That shows.  There is a hop primer floating
around somewhere on the net.  I could try to find/post it if desired.
**************************
Stuart from Edinburgh says he:
> uses a plastic brewheat thingy and I think its crap, I want to brew 
bigger  batches and I want to use gas to heat, cos I like flames!

*  I'm sure there's a few folks around willing and able to scorch
a few flames.  But that would never happen on HBD...right!  :/
A note for AL...That's one reason why I didn't include the 
commercial mash/lauter tuns in my rundown. Not that they don't exist
but just that with a little creativity one can be fashioned
cheaply at home.  I don't have exp w/ the commercial ones...but 
they are out there.  Have heard good things about Phil's false butt. 
*************************
Tom queries:

wanted to know if....needed to put down my homebrew to scape the
hops off..side of kettle.  It sure could save me a couple of minutes 
drinking time.

*   Hold a spoon/paddle in one hand, homebrew in the other and 
scrape away.  I don't know for sure- but I would suggest that to
get FULL extraction of hop oils you want to hop material in contact
with hot liquor for the full boil.  I use a mesh- hop bag, so I don't
have that problem.  I do plunge the bag to the bottom several times
during the boil.  But I can do that one handed.  Use a beer mug with a
handle if you don't feel comfortable with your dexterity.  With a
little practice you can master the techniques of continuous drinking 
during ANY activity.  If you spill a little into your wort...don't worry.
*************************************************************************
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John (The Coyote) Wyllie  SLK6P at cc.usu.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*************************** bonk bonk bonk ******************************

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 12:05:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Bob Jones" <bjones at novax.llnl.gov>
Subject: Pitching large yeast starters

Domenick Venezia's concern about pitching large starters into fermentations
was a concern of mine as well. What I have started doing is wait until the
yeast has dropped and then decant (I have actually been removing the liquid
above the yeast with a small siphon hose) and then add additional food.
Then I do the same again or just pitch straight into the wort. Work G. Fix
and a few others have done, has shown that there are actually ADVANTAGES to
pitching yeast AFTER high kruesen. The viability issue does enter into the
equation if one waits too long before pitching. I can't seem to locate any
info on yeast viability with time.

Bob Jones

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 12:31:47 PDT
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Late Hops vs. Chiller, Homegrown Hops

Norm Pyle asked about immersion vs. counterflow chilling and late hop
additions:

Just my 2 cents:  There's no reason to go back to immersion chilling
for late hop additions, unless you want to.  If you like counterflow
chilling, you can compensate for the effects of long "hot wort time"
by either covering the wort so the volatiles aren't lost or simply
adding a bit more hops.  But in my opinion the difference is likely
to be a small one regardless.  I would think that a much more
significant effect would come from those that cool their wort by
immersing the pot in a sink or bathtub of ice water, which takes
significantly longer than either immersion coils or counter-flow
chilling.  For the record, I use an immersion chiller and also cover
the pot as the wort cools.  A tip is that since the coils don't
allow the actual lid to fit over the pot while cooling, I use
about three strips of Strech-tite (like Saran wrap) to cover the
pot so that I get a good seal.  Now I don't cover to keep in hop
volatiles (but I suppose it does), but to keep airborne nasties out
of the wort during cooling.  I do not cover during the boil. 

Philip Proefrock writes:

>I am interested in growing my own hops for use in my homebrew.  (I don't
>plan to use this exclusively, but it would be nice to have hops I had
>grown in the beer that I brew.  I expect I would only use the homegrown
>hops for one part of the process, say boiling,   and will continue to
>buy other varieties for flavor/aroma.)

I would suggest you do just the opposite.  Use the homegrown hops for
aroma additions and use hops you know the alpha acid ratings on for 
bittering.  You can at least get a sense of the aroma potential of your
homegrown hops by using your nose, but there's really no practical way
to know how much alpha acid is in there (without a lab analysis). 

Mark

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 14:37:55 CDT
From: "Anthony Johnston" <anthony at chemsun.chem.umn.edu>
Subject: Carboy Alert!

Just a note of potential concern to you all:

Recently (about 5 mins ago) I was cleaning a carboy recruited from our
stockroom that had previously held some (assumedly) harmless chemical
solutions (KI in DI water and such).  Anyway, after filling with approx
8 liters of water or so and dumping in about 250 g of potassium
hydroxide pellets, I picked up the carboy to swirl and mix the contents.
The second time I lifted the carboy, the entire bottom separated almost
perfectly, dumping the contents.  I am thankful that:
1) This occurred over my lab sink.
2) That the carboy contained only cheap chemicals rather than wort or
(gasp!) finished beer.
3)  That I didn't splash caustic KOH solution all over myself.

In the future, I will (and will recommend to others) to:
1) carefully inspect all new carboys before initial use (and used ones
too.)
2) regularly inspect my old ones
3) exercise due caution when picking up or transferring my carboys.
4) avoid any sudden thermal shock to the glass carboys.

5) Avoid long-term contact with caustic soda soluitions.

I am sure that most of these precautions are obvious and well-known and
the others may seem like overkill, but after seeing the results of a
broken carboy...

anthony johnston
not crying over spilt wort (yet!!)


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Date: 26 Oct 1993 16:22:36 -0500
From: "Stephen Schember" <stephen_schember at terc.edu>
Subject: Favorite Beer Cocktail

                      Subject:                              Time:  4:00 PM
  OFFICE MEMO         Favorite Beer Cocktail                Date:  10/26/93
I know this horse is probably quite dead but here's another wallop. The favorite
(only) beer cocktail in my house is something called "Skip and Go Naked"   which
consists of:  
3 Cans Coors extra gold (or similar grade/style beer)
1 8 oz Can frozen Lemonade
8 oz  Jim Beam (+,- to taste and desire to expose oneself to those you are    
drinking with) 
Ice to bring pitcher up to 2 quarts. 
Don't know its origin but it sure is good and goes well with embarassing board
games.




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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 13:29 PDT
From: hbaum at uts.amdahl.com (Michael Hohnbaum)
Subject: doppelbock


Around the end of August I asked for advice on priming a doppelbock, due to
the concern that the yeast used to ferment would be wiped out by the high
alchol level.  I received numerous responses, all of which said "pitch some
more yeast when you bottle".  Fortunately I had set aside a bottle of my
original starter to use in a planned beer this winter, so I had yeast available.
I made up a one pint starter, added this yeast and let it ferment.  Then I made
a primer from 3/4 cups dme added this and the yeast to the bottling
bucket with 5 gallons of doppelbock and bottled.  I am happy to report that 
a week later the beer was perfectly  carbonated resulting in a very tasty
brew to help me through the upcoming winter.  Thanks to all who provided me
advice on this.

For anyone interested, the recipe:

      Baumerator
10 pounds Briesse 2 row malt
3  pounds munich malt
1/2 pound toasted malt
1/2 pound chocolate malt
1/4 pound roasted barley
1/4 pound black patent malt
1/2 crystal malt 80L
4 ounces Tettenger boiling hops
1/2 ounce Tettenger finishing hops
Yeast Labs Bavarian Lager Yeast
OG 1084, FG 1020

Protein rest 125, Mash 154, Mashout 168

                   Michael Hohnbaum   hbaum at uts.amdahl.com
These opinions do not reflect amdahl's, but are completely mine.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1258, 10/29/93