HOMEBREW Digest #1277 Sat 20 November 1993

Digest #1276 Digest #1278

		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

   (Bob Jones)
  Calling Columbus OH Homebrewers (Vincent Heuring)
  Mo' Betta Decoction (Lee=A.=Menegoni)
  Wyeast London Barleywine/Antibacterial Hops (korz)
  Bottle washing (EDM9743)
  Re: Treacle & Other Brit Sugars (Mark_Davis.osbu_south)
  Hard Water (Rob Skinner)
  pH and leaching tannins (Ed Hitchcock)
  The Beer Machine (Jill Martz)
  yeast & glycogen (Russell Gelinas)
  beer labels (Chuck Wettergreen)
  Re: Kegging FAQ (Dion Hollenbeck)
  church keys and bad address in ca (David Atkins)
  HSA - another view (msharp)
  Sour brown crabtree HSA scaremongery (Ulick Stafford)
  Miscellany/Crabtree (npyle)
  Sanitation and Priming (J. Fingerle)
  Sam Adams Cranberry "Ale" (lyons)
  Hop Oils as a Preservative (Mark Garetz)
  Re: Dry Hopping and Infections (Drew Lynch)
  Lactose-Acid brew/ Ciders / REAL Bathtub Brew /BeerMachine (COYOTE)
  Stepping up to a 5 gallon boil (Paul Ferrara)
  for publication (Chris Mix)
  british ale liquid yeast (G.Leake)
  Panic Over Sugar (Jeff Frane)
  Acid rest (korz)
  Dry Hopping Infections/Tate & Lyle Golden Syrup and Treacle (korz)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 13:25:39 +0800 From: bjones at novax.llnl.gov (Bob Jones) Subject: I would like to see some reviews of some of the software packages out there for brewing related usage. These reviews would be from people who have used these programs and can list the programs strong and weak points. I think we all could benefit from these reviews. Bob Jones bjones at novax.llnl.gov Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 15:15:40 -0700 From: Vincent Heuring <heuring at riker.cs.colorado.edu> Subject: Calling Columbus OH Homebrewers I want to give "The Gift of Homebrewing" to a relative that lives in Columbus OH, for Christmas. My plan is to buy the extract, yeast, and small supplies here in Boulder and send them to him, and to make arrangements with some homebrew supply store in Columbus to prepay them for a carboy and boil pot. Would some kind Columbus homebrewer please mail me the phone numbers and addresses of a couple of the better supply stores in Columbus? - --- Vincent Heuring Dep't of Electrical & Computer Engineering University of Colorado at Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0425 heuring at cs.Colorado.EDU o) 303-492-8751 h) 303-449-8868 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 93 16:59:49 EST From: Lee=A.=Menegoni at nectech.com Subject: Mo' Betta Decoction A recent post describes the process they use for decoction in which they use a strainer to leave liquid behind and add water to the kettle mash. This may be a problem for 2 reasons. 1) The ph of this kettle mash may be high and tannin extraction may occur 2) The amount of enzymes in the kettle mash may be low and the conversion slow or incomplete Using the strainer may be a good way of getting the "thickest 1/n" but I would add enough of the liquid from the main brew pot to keep the kettle mash from scorching or sticking. This assumes that the main mash's PH has been tested and is in range. When its time to boil the addition of a little more liquid may be needed. Acidified sparge water is OK as is liquid from the main mash, which is at protein rest temp. Most brewers I know don't use an acid rest, except after 6 Dead shows, they do a single decoction using about 40-50% of the grain. It is important to do a sufficently long kettle mash since you are deactivating 40-50% of the enzymes. They mash out by adding boiling acidified sparge water to the cooler mash/lauter tun or heat the metal brew put on a stove . Lee Menegoni Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 93 14:37 CST From: korz at iepubj.att.com Subject: Wyeast London Barleywine/Antibacterial Hops Norm writes: Brian Seay asks about barley wine fermentation. <snip> ...DON'T USE WYEAST LONDON ALE YEAST (1028)!!! To which I reply: BRIAN AND LINDA NORTH BREWED BEST-OF-SHOW BARLEYWINE USING WYEAST LONDON ALE!!! No, seriously, perhaps Wyeast #1028 is a less alcohol tolerant strain than some of the others, but it can be used for Barleywines. I did see Brian and Linda at the CBS competition, but forgot to ask them the particulars as I had promised. Perhaps I should call. *************************** Several posters have suggested that it's the alpha acids in the hops that are antibacterial. I'm confident that the antibacterial qualities of the hops are in the lupulin, but would hazard a guess that they are not in the alpha acids. Recall that Lambiek brewers use aged hops so that they don't impart bitterness, but (according to J.X.Guinard) their antibacterial qualities are still available. It's the oxidation of the alpha acids that kills the alpha acid's bittering potential (beta acids are a different story, but better left to another post) and I would imagine that if, indeed, the alpha acids were responsible for the antibacterial qualities, then the oxidation would have ruined them as well. Al. Return to table of contents
Date: 18 Nov 1993 16:54:07 -0500 (CDT) From: EDM9743 at UTARLG.UTA.EDU Subject: Bottle washing Hullo. My name is Erich and my father and I would like any suggestions/info. on bottle washing machines. He modified an old dishwasher but I think that he would like to improve it or replace it with a more suitable machine. Oh yes, and does anyone have any info. on recipe software for the IBM (Windows would be perfect but far from required)? Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 11:16:56 PST From: Mark_Davis.osbu_south at xerox.com Subject: Re: Treacle & Other Brit Sugars >No, you cannot buy treacle in the U.S., Hmmm, I just purchased Lyle's Treacle form a homebrew store here in California. If anyone wants the stuff(I would agree that it tastes like a strong Blackstrap molasses) then they can contact: The Home Wine and Brewing shop 22836 Ventura Blvd. Woodland Hills, Ca. (818)884-8586 Store Hours: Fri-Mon 10:30-5:30 Lyle's Golden syrup is a pure, refined cane syrup(it has a wonderful, rich caramel flavor). I have been using this in place of Candi sugar(per a recommendation for a member of the Lambic digest) for Belgian abby ales. Works wonders for this as I do not have to boil all night to get that caramel flavor. Cheers, Mark - --disclaimer-- I have no ties, either personal or finacial, to the Home Wine and Brewing shop. Just a happy customer :-> Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 93 16:51:00 +0800 From: rob.skinner at kandy.com (Rob Skinner) Subject: Hard Water Tim writes: >Here are the important numbers: >Chloride 25ppm >Sulfate 38ppm >Calcium 54.5ppm >CaCO3 140ppm >Ph 7.7 >The CaCo3 seems high, particularly with the amount of calcium that >is present. What is my best course of action, Tim, I would certainly try to reduce the CO3 concentration. The other numbers look ok. By adding 1/8 tsp. CaCl2 / gallon of water and boiling it for 20 minutes, you will reduce your carbonate to about 35ppm and your calcium to about 52ppm. Your chloride level will increase to about 78 ppm. I prefer to use calcium chloride rather than calcium sulfate because excessively high levels of sulfate can have an adverse effect on hop bitterness. Also, my preference is to use this method on the mash water only, and treat my sparge water with lactic acid. I add acid until the pH reaches about 5.3. All the chemistry info I use to adjust my water is contained in Dave Miller's Compete Handbook Of Homebrewing. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 09:36:37 -0400 From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca> Subject: pH and leaching tannins Jack writes: > That's a nice number but like so many things, it is only a bench mark. What > if the pH rose to 5.4 or 5.7... would it make a detectable difference? I > doubt it. >..... > In the real world, sparge water is run through the mash which has a powerful > buffering effect on the water. I run 10 or more gallons of pH 7 sparge > water through my mash and it doesn't raise the pH more than a tenth point or > so. Furthermore, sparge water temp is not the same as mash temp nor does it > bear any relationship to making tea with boiling water. > > Finally, it does not address the fact that boiling grain in decoction mashing > does not seem to produce astringent beer. I know he's only baiting us, but I feel like a sucker this morning. The mash has a buffering effect, yes. As the goodies are drawn off, however, the pH does rise. This is quite variable, and depends on the mineral content and buffering ability of your water supply, the types of grain used, the mashing technique, where the grain was grown and so on. So jack has a nice acidic mash, and sparge water with low alkalinity. Great. If he tried his technique in, say, southwestern Ontario where the tap water is very full of carbonates, he would undoubetedly have very different results. So as one sparges, the pH rises as the sugars and acidic compounds are drawn off, and replaced by neutral water. The 5.3 figure is a guideline, and indeed a 5.4 pH might produce little or no more astringency. It does indicate, however, that your pH is rising, and soon will reach a level that will extract noticeable quantities of tannins from the husks. In the decotion mash, you have a thick mash which has not had the sugars and acids removed, so the pH stays low. Where's the problem? ____________ Ed Hitchcock ech at ac.dal.ca | Oxymoron: Draft beer in bottles. | Anatomy & Neurobiology | Pleonasm: Draft beer on tap. | Dalhousie University, Halifax |___________________________________| Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 10:15:00 -0500 (EST) From: Jill Martz <SAL_MARTZ at sals.edu> Subject: The Beer Machine Just a reply to the person interested if anyone has experience with using the Beer Machine, my dad recently purchased one along with some kits put together by the manufacturer. He brewed two of them. The "beer" was a disaster After forcing us to taste it and asking several people independently what it smelled like he was told "green olives". He went to the homebrew store and of course the owner tried to talk him out of using it, but sold him some malt extracts etc. to make a batch. He attempted this the other day and could not get it to seal properly. So it appears this "system" has several problems. If anyone has had success I would appreciate hearing about it so I could pass it on to my Dad. Thanks. REply to : SMTP%"SAL_MARTZ at SALS.EDU" ...Jill Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 10:14:32 -0500 (EST) From: gelinas at ekman.unh.edu (Russell Gelinas) Subject: yeast & glycogen >It makes sense, but it's not the way that yeast actually works. Just "before >the kraeusen begins" the yeast have their glycogen level depleted. According >to experiments done by Pickerell, Hwang & Axcell (and reported in their >paper: Impact of Yeast-Handling Procedures on Beer Flavor Development During >Fermentation, 1991 American Society of Brewing Chemists, ASBC Journal, >volume 49, no.2.) you want to wait till the high kraeusen has just ended >to pitch your starter. I have more info on this for anyone who is interested. A few quick questions. When is glycogen depleted? During respiration? During fermentation also? When is glycogen assimilated? During fermentation? Immediately following fermentation? RussG. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 08:18:00 -0600 From: chuck.wettergreen at aquila.com (Chuck Wettergreen) Subject: beer labels Robert linder wrote in HBD 1276: Rl> I have used Microsoft "Publisher" with satisfaction. It allows > you to curve text instantly and import various bit-mapped > images. Its price I also have used MS Publisher, but found that Instant Artist is easier to use, cheaper ($49), and has many many more fonts and (especially) text and graphic modification features. For example, MSP has 2 preset text curves; in IA, you draw the curve and IA fits the text to it. Chuck * RM 1.2 00946 * Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 08:53:20 PST From: hollen at megatek.megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck) Subject: Re: Kegging FAQ >>>>> "Norm" == npyle <npyle at n33.stortek.com> writes: Norm> What ever happened to the Kegging FAQ? Oops!! I posted to rec.crafts.brewing yesterday, but neglected to post to HBD. Here is what I said. My employer (to whom I owe my Internet Connection) has had me working harder than usual and the Kegging FAQ has been put on a back burner temporarily. Just about as this happened, I had decided on a different direction for it. I had been going through every back issue of HBD in the issues looking for questions and answers and had only gotten through half of what is archived. I finally decided that I would edit the contributions which have been made (which are substantial) and get that portion out, and then in a future release, add what has been gleaned from the archives. This is now my current strategy and I hope to have something by the end of this month. However, the bottom line is that I must keep my employer happy to keep my Internet connection, or I can't post anything at all. Sorry for the delay, dion Dion Hollenbeck (619)455-5590x2814 Email: hollen at megatek.com Senior Software Engineer megatek!hollen at uunet.uu.net Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California ucsd!megatek!hollen Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 11:02 CDT From: David Atkins <ATKINS at macc.wisc.edu> Subject: church keys and bad address in ca 1) Twist away with Sierra Nevada. If they can make a better profit off of a twist off bottle without making a worse beer, I will gladly use my church key less. Even Busch Lite comes in reusable bottles. Don't judge a beer by it's cap :-). Of course, upon saying this, some rocket scientists will split my atom with a scientific study, proving me wrong. :-) 2) James of UCDavis asked for new brewer info. Well James, your address doesn't work for me and my internet. Rather beefy post that many hbd's would just skim over. I could save bandwidth with another address so I could post it personal. Please send email to my address atkins at macc.wisc.edu if you still in the market for some info. Happy brewing, David Atkins UW-Madison Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 09:24:13 PST From: msharp at Synopsys.COM Subject: HSA - another view Hi folks, Since HSA still seems to be a topic of discussion here: Last night I was at the A-B plat in Fairfield, CA for the quarterly MBAA meeting. While there I was able to crawl through the bowels of the brewery on a VIP tour lead by one of the plant managers who has been in this business for ~21 years and worked his way up from the ranks. So what does this have to do with HSA? Well apparently their are two camps of thought. The one which George represented and the one which doesn't believe its anywhere near that much of a problem. Upon what do I base this? During part of the tour I was directly below the kettles looking at a large tank (~2 industrial stories high, 10'+ round) and I was told that this was used for hot wort aeration. This caught my off a bit so I asked for a clarification. I was told that immediately after boiling and prior to cooling the wort is slowly dripped down through this tank against an upward flow of 120F air. This is done to simulate the aeration effect of the old technology coolers which where just a few stories of tubing. Later in the evening I had a long talk about this with the same man over dinner where we got into why A-B does it this way, etc. --Mike Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 12:43:58 EST From: Ulick Stafford <ulick at michaelangelo.helios.nd.edu> Subject: Sour brown crabtree HSA scaremongery In hbd 1276 Jeff Frane poo-poo's Gregory Noonan's excellent sour mash article in the Special Zymurgy (probably the article that makes the publication worth while, IMNSHO), but seem to be mixing up acid rests and sour mashes. A sour mash, the procedure for which is well decribed by Noonan, is of part of the mash and takes place over days at 120F+. An acid rest is of the whole mash at around 100F, and uses enzyme reactions to reduce pH. This technique may take 20 hours and is only useful for soft water mashes. The technique described by Noonan is Reinheitgebot and works for harder water. Try Howard asks about American Brown Ale. The excellent Pete's Wicked Ale won the GABF in 1992, so I assume it is a good example of the style. May the pedantics correct me if this is wrong :-). Steve Zabarnick speculates that the Crabtree effect may not occur in dextrose primed bottles bacause it is only a small proportion of the sugar. However, since all other fermentable sugars are now gone, isn't it the only fermentable sugar?? Carl Howes was one of many to correct me when I posted > While this procedure is not correct - chilling in a bathtub or with a wort > chiller prior to pouring is recommended, the amount of damage that could be > expected due to hot side aeration is so slight that it is unlikely to be > noticable. I have seen a huge improvement in flavor stability and beer quality since I started chilling the concentrated wort. Have you tried it both ways, Ulick? I apologize for understating a risk. I should have said that the beer was likely to be drinkable, rather than saying that the effect is unlikely to be noticable. This was toned thus because I had received email from first time brewers saying that they had just brewed like this wondering whether they pitch and batch now? I am sorry for erring on the side of RDWHAHB rather than erring on the scaremonger side that is the HBD norm. Talking about scaremongery Al K responded to my critique of his postings with a repeat of his 'DON'T CHANGE YEAST AT BOTTLING \em{or your bottles will explode} ' earlier in the week. Considering that most yeast are similarily attenuative this is an exaggerated risk, and I am sure most homebrewers who change yeasts are aware of the danger. Or are most of the Belgian brewers and Weizen brewers in the world wrong? (he also spoke of what was appropriate for hbd again, my posting not being, of course, which shows that he isn't totally cured of his superiority complex. Al K should consider that email response to me was running 80:20 in support of my posting, which may indicate that I wasn't the only one who found his style irksome, just as he finds mine. Which of us is right, or is neither of us???). __________________________________________________________________________ 'Heineken!?! ... F#$% that s at &* ... | Ulick Stafford, Dept of Chem. Eng. Pabst Blue Ribbon!' | Notre Dame IN 46556 | ulick at darwin.cc.nd.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 9:40:58 MST From: npyle at n33.stortek.com Subject: Miscellany/Crabtree Mark Bunster writes: >reasonable debate, EXCEPT: you are not making a Rheinheitsgebot beer when you use corn sugar, for what that's worth to you. IMNSHO, Rheinheitsgebot was written to circumvent a free market economy (price controls) and as a protectionist measure against foreign imports. Oh, and it also helped keep some bad beer off the streets. It was later used as marketing tool and was made to sound like a very good thing. That's what its worth to me. >maybe a 4 gal - 1 gal makes good sense. It's primitive, but for us nontinkerers who are too poor to buy and too stupid to build a cf or immersion chiller, it works quite well and goes faster than we imagined. Too poor maybe, but nobody is too stupid to put together an immersion chiller (hey, even I did it!). ** Anyone tried this year's Coors Winterfest? It is (this is no lie!) robust, dark brown/red, balanced (surprise), and quite tasty. There are even some fruity components that make me wonder if it an ale. From Coors? No way! It certainly is an order of magnitude better than last year's boring amber lager. Oh, it is still marketed as a stout, HA! It is no stout but it is good beer. ** Troy Howard, American brown ale IS Pete's Wicked Ale IMHO. ** James Clark writes: >I have just become interested in homebrewing and joined this list to find helpful info for my first batch which I plan to start in December. So far the only knowledge I have of the subject comes from _The New Complete Joy of Homebrewing_. However, just from reading the first few articles in this list I have found that even the most basic steps to brewing are a matter of opinion (i.e. plastic fermenter vs. glass carboy) Does anyone have any suggestions to give to a confused prospective homebrewer? I suggest you follow the book you are reading. Homebrewing is an evolutionary process and if you are like me, you will continually change your processes and equipment, ad infinitum. Don't let endless debate keep you from brewing and enjoying your beer. ** Pardon my igorance, but what is the Crabtree Effect supposed to do to my beer, and why would one avoid it? It seems it has to do with oxygen production, and of course I know why I don't want oxygen in my beer at bottling, but could someone explain the effect in greater detail? Norm Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 13:16:58 EST From: fingerle at NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (J. Fingerle) Subject: Sanitation and Priming Somebody (did not save the post) was interested in how to sanitize the brass "jet washer" he was using to clean his bottles. Evidently, he thought that this might be the source of some recent infections. I'd like to comment in a tangential way. My bottle cleaning procedure is this: after I decant a beer, I immeadiately rinse the bottle and store it upside down in a spare beer case I keep in the kitchen. When ready to bottle, I use the jet washer gizmo with hot faucet water to rinse the bottle out, then let the bottle drain in the dish strainer briefly. I then place the bottles in the oven and bake them to kill off any nasties. Generally, I start at the lowest setting, and raise the oven temp to about 300F or so in 50F increments every 15 minutes or so. I then let the oven cool several hours, or I crack the oven to speed the process. End result, sanitized, and possibly sterile bottles. The only downside that I can see is that this temperature cycling might eventually stress the glass, but so far, I have bottled 19 batches in this manner, using about 12x24 bottles, so obviously, many of these have been through the procedure several times. To give credit where due, this procedure did not originate with me, I got it off of the digest probably 18 months or so ago. ************************ Now a question. I'm in the mood to fool around with bottle priming. How much should I use to prime 5 gallons with molassass or honey? Does it make a difference if dark or light molassass is used? What about various honeys? Raw vs "processed" for example. Will the priming material effect the finished beer's taste (assuming a pale ale)? Thanks! Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 13:21:54 EST From: lyons%adc1 at swlvx2.msd.ray.com Subject: Sam Adams Cranberry "Ale" >Ben writes: >> Sam Adams Cranberry Lambic >>It was crisp, smooth, and had sensational flavor. Al writes: >I would encourage all homebrewers to discourage anyone from refering to >this beer as "Lambic." It is by no stretch of the imagination a Lambic. >Lambics are spontaneously fermented by local yeasts and bacteria in the >Zenne Valley in Belgium. The Sam (tm) Adams (tm) product is nothing more >than a Cranberry Ale and reference to the esteemed appellation "Lambic" >is another unscrupulous marketing ploy by the Boston (tm) Beer (tm) >Company (tm). I have to agree with Ben's comments. Maybe the "Sam Adams Cranberry Lambic" is not a true lambic, but it IMHO, it is a very tasty brew. >I continue my boycott of Samuel Adams products! Your loss. Although Koch may be a slime bag, he makes a decent product. Chris Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 10:51:57 PST From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com> Subject: Hop Oils as a Preservative Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 00:05:58 CST Darrell Simon writes: >It is possible that the hop flowers alone are not acidic enough to inhibit >the bacteria. I would speculate that the preservative effect of hops comes from the alpha acids extracted during the boil, and the increase in >acidity. Yes from the alpha acids, but the acids themselves are quite weak and won't affect the acidity of the beer noticeably (otherwise we could use a pH meter to measure alpha acids). >You don't hear of the preservative qualities of hop aroma >although you do hear of the preservative qualities of hop bitterness. Actually there are studies that show that hop oils (responsible for the aroma) do have a preservative effect and do inhibit the growth of bacteria. And for an informal opinion, Fritz Maytag strongly believes that dry-hopped beers last much longer (like 10-20 years) than beers that are not dry hopped. He bases this on tasting his Christmas Ales from many years ago (that he has in his own collection and that people send to him). He claims that a 17 year old Christmas Ale he tasted was still quite good, but he admits it is not exactly the same as when it was brewed, but certainly not spoiled. Also historical data shows that IPAs (the real ones destined for India by boat) were called for (by contract) to have a high dry hopping level ("2 lbs of Kent hops per hogshead" which translates to 2.47 ozs per five gallons). Mark Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 10:25:32 -0800 From: Drew Lynch <drew at chronologic.com> Subject: Re: Dry Hopping and Infections I have recently gotten past a really bad bacterial contamination problems that left me with _many_ gallons of beer for use in the meat smoker. All of these problems were evidenced by very low finishing gravities, as well as cloudiness, bottle bombs, bad taste, gushers, etc. I believe that the problems were due to sloppy brewing style, and not enough attention to sanitation. (I brewed sloppily for 10 years before I had any problems) Two weeks ago, I brewed a ten gallon batch of brown ale. I got much better than normal extraction rate, and ended up with 12 gallons of wort split between two 7 gallon glass carboys, with a starting gravity of 1.080. I split a 1 litre starter of fresh Wyeast american ale between the two. After one week of fermentation, at 1.030, I racked to two 5 gallon secondaries. At this point, the two sub batches were identical in taste and gravity. I decided to dry hop one of the two secondaries. I sanitized some marbles in a mesh bag, and then filled the bag with fresh Cascades. I had a _lot_ of trouble getting the bag through the neck of the carboy, but eventually it went in. This morning, I took gravity readings and tasted both sub-batches. The non-dryhopped bottle was at 1.024, crystal clear, and tasted great. The dry hopped batch was at 1.014, cloudy, and astringent, and I can only assume, infected. There are three possiblities that I see: 1) unclean equipment used in the dry hopped sub batch - Very Unlikely 2) bacteria carried on hops into the beer - ??? 3) Excessive handling with bare hands introduced bacteria into dry hopped batch - very likely Since I use a CF chiller, I will be building a hop-back for this weekend's batch. I _may_ attempt dry hopping again, but will use rubber gloves, and no bag or marbles. Anyway, I feel that the idea that "bad stuff won't grow in fermented wort" is incorrect, and care in sanitation need be taken at all steps prior to drinking the beer. Drew Lynch Chronologic Simulation, Los Altos, Ca. (415)965-3312x18 drew at chronologic.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 12:18:40 -0600 (MDT) From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu> Subject: Lactose-Acid brew/ Ciders / REAL Bathtub Brew /BeerMachine ***** Al. sez: >BTW, I'm not a biologist, but I'll bet that Lactose is fementable by Lactobacillus, so be extra careful with sanitation! ...snip... If you add lactose, you can add it in the boil, or boil some up and add it at bottling time -- it's *unfermentable*, so it doesn't matter as long as you sanitize it. Adding at bottling time also allows you to add it to taste, but be aware that the beer will become a bit more acidic when it carbonates, so you may want to * I am a biologist FWIW. And yes- lactobacillus will ferment lactose. If you added some yogurt to a lactose brew, you would most likely get a rather acidic product. So: Lactose IS fermentable, but NOT by Saccharomyces (beer yeast), so it can sweeten a beer. Best idea is to minimize the time the lactose is available to wild bacteria. Add it at bottling (to taste) with good asceptic technique. If you add it to the wort you risk more by having it present longer, where an infectious bacterium could ferment it and produce acid. BUT if these fermenters are not present you should not see any additional acid as a result of the lactose. Bottle with usual priming sugar and lactose and you will NOT see additional acidity upon carbonation UNLESS there are contaminating organisms present! Also- allows you to taste test the fermented beer and see how much sweetening it may require. You could end up with lots of unfermented sugars from the ferment, and not need as much, or it could have attenuated enough that lots of sugar could help. Depends on your preference. **** Just got another 5 gallons of fresh squeezed cider. Yummy. They made me a deal on pressing day- that if I brought a container for them to fill it would be cheaper. The guy wondered where I got the nice glass carboy. :) I don't know if they know what we plan to do with the liquid! I doubt good mormons would appreciate such a use. Although it IS a method of storing the cider for longer periods! Maybe I should call it Armageddon Cider! Another Note: I pitched a gallon of cider (unsterilized) with champage yeast, and it's going like a bat out of "heck" . I also had another gallon sitting untouched. It started building pressure and making bubbles too. The first smells appley, tastes sweet and yummy (2 weeks) while the second smells sour, rotten, but tastes ok. I think I can forced the first to go quick, while the second will have to age for a long time. (based on past experiments). A Question: Anyone have any tips of fast fermenting. It's been 2 weeks and I hope to race the first cider for thanx. I was thinking of chilling it down, and clarifying (bentonite?) then bottling and hoping for a quick carbonation (since it's still active) and a quick drinking. I may be begging the issue to hope to have it so quick, but it tastes good now. Any ideas/experience? **** On a humorous horror story note, re: potential names and lost wort: A brewing collegue called me yesterday in a panic. He had just conducted a terrilbe faux pah (SP! I ain't frech!:) ie screwed up! Using the age old method of submerging hot wort/boiling pot in a bathtub of cold water he gave new meaning to the concept of "immersion chilling". He deep sixed the pot. Yes...that's right kids, Boil pot was floating. Boil pot was submerged. Wort rushed out, bathtub water rushed in. Ooooooooooops. Went from a high gravity stout ... to....? He was calling partially to ask whether he should re-boil. He sterilizes the whole tub with bleach water when soaking bottles. BUT He has two kids who bathe in there too! BOIL IT! He did. He also wanted to know if he should add more fermentables upon re-boiling. He went for brown sugar. I also suggested honey, dme. He mashes. I also suggested a few names for the brew: Deep Six Stout. BathtubBrew. Submarine Psuedo Stout...among others. Any more ideas? I think he's embarassed and wants to forget the incident. :) At least he didn't lose the WHOLE batch. Could have taken it skiing (toot!). John (The Coyote) Wyllie SLK6P at cc.usu.edu |'^\/| - ----- no cute quote today. Just not in the mood.... ------- ALSO: Saw the BeerMachine in the Sharper Image catalog. $99.95 ($8 S&H) Again quoting the 25 gal/year Federal law. Ooops. But Jeepers. A hunderd bucks for lame yuppy brew. Maybe I can find a used machine at the salvation army, but otherwise I ain't gonna touch it! To think of all the gadgets, toys, and brewsupplies available for $100! Guess we have really "fallen through the cracks of our quick fix, 1 hour photo, instant oatmeal society" !! Guess I did have a quote afterall. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 16:22:23 From: prf at cherry-semi.com (Paul Ferrara) Subject: Stepping up to a 5 gallon boil I began reading the HBD only two weeks ago and have already learned a great deal about the finer points of brewing. I've decided that if my brew is going to improve any, I need to make the leap to boiling 5 full gal. and appropriatly chilling. It's time to demote my 12qt aluminum pot to lobster boiling, and move on to something bigger. I've been considering purchasing a "Bru-Heat" thermostatically controlled boiler as a replacement brew pot ... my theory being that for approx the price of a quality 24-30 qt stainless steel pot, I can get a unit that will boil my wort now, AND, be used for my next leap: to all grain brewing. Would this be a wise investment? Can the Bru-Heat bring a 5 gal batch to a reasonably quick boil? Is it the right way to go for mashing? Or should I really spend many $$ and buy a stainles steel pot, propane cooker, picnic cooler mash tun, sparging manifold, etc, etc, etc .... If this has been discussed at length before, feel free to respond by private E-mail, or direct me to the proper archive. Thanks.....Paul Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 17:13:29 EST From: tchm at gtx.ummed.edu (Chris Mix) Subject: for publication I am new to brewing and my first batch is about 1 week old and sitting in a glass carbuoy as a single stage fermentation. As suggested by Papazian, I reconstituted my yeast by boiling approx. 1-2 cup water, letting it cool to 100-105 farenheit then adding the yeast and letting them sit for 30 min prior to pitching them. Within the first 12-18 hrs close to a quart of my beer-to-be came over into a bucked through a water-locked tube. I am concerned because the foam had fallen back into the carbuoy at 24 hrs and the smaller water lock now atop the carbuoy has passed a bubble only once every 1-5 min. I was under the impression most activity was to occur over 1-2or3 days. I am aiming for an ale with a Munson malt extract, 8 oz. crystal malt, 2 oz Kent Gouldings and some Cascade (hops, not detergent) thrown in 5 min prior to adding the wort to the carbuoy. The yeast are starting to settle now and otherwise things seem to look OK. Could there be a problem here? -Chris Mix Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 16:20 CDT From: G.Leake at utxvm.cc.utexas.edu Subject: british ale liquid yeast Does anyone know whether British Ale Yeast is the most appropriate liquid yeast for brewing Northern style Brown Ales? thanks George Leake Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 15:04:22 -0800 (PST) From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane) Subject: Panic Over Sugar You ever notice how easy it is to push the panic button here on the Digest? It looks as though it's happened again, this time with people starting to dither over the correct bottling sugar. The Crabtree Effect is about as relevant as the Crab Nebula here. We are talking, after all, of truly tiny amounts of sugar compared with the total volume -- even leaving aside the fact that *lots* of beers have been made with 20-30% of *cane* sugar added, without any problems. The British and the Belgians regularly prime with sugar, with sucrose, dextrose, invert sugar and combinations of the above, sometimes with a bit of caramel thrown in for variety. I have yet to see any evidence that this causes a problem. Sierra Nevada has been using dextrose to bottle for years, and I can't see that it's cut into their sales much. Really, folks, relax. Worrying is one thing, but panic... ========== And on subject of sugars, and British sugars in particular: I have to disagree with the poster who said that demerara sugar was less sticky than American brown sugar. At least, I disagree with it as a blanket statement. Eric Urquart (no, I know that's not spelled right) was good enough to send me .5 kilo from British Columbia, and this stuff is much, much stickier than brown sugar. It also has an unmistakeable molasses aroma that could be smelled through the plastic packaging five feet away. And yes, I fully intend to use it in brewing. ========== Larry Barelo inquired about using adjuncts to lighten up a barleywine. I'm not entirely sure that it would still be a barleywine if it was lightened up, but I have been using sugar and flaked maize for the same purpose in my faux-abbeybiers and it really does the job. It is, I think, one of the prime differences between barleywines and the Belgian beers: the former have a very full body, rich and sweet, while the Belgian beers are deliberately made to have a high alcohol but to be less satiating. Really hard to do that with an all-malt recipe. ========= Todd Jennings laments the increasing appearance of twist-offs in microbrewed beers. Although the criticism is well-placed, he mentions Sierra Nevada as a new offender -- SN has never had anything *but* twist-off caps on their bottles since they began in, what, 1984? 1983? Here in the Great NW, the micros are split somewhat. Red Hook beers have twist-offs, Full Sail's and BridgePort's are true crown caps, um, so are Rogue's, Pyramids are twisted, etc. Then again, I've never had a bad bottle that I could attribute to twist-offs, so I'm not sure how valid the conventional wisdom is. - --Jeff Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 15:05 CST From: korz at iepubj.att.com Subject: Acid rest Jeff writes: >Interesting to note Greg Noonan's article in the special issue of >Zymurgy. Noonan is now touting sour mashes as the secret ingredient in >Bavarian weizens and Bohemian pilsners -- in spite of a complete lack of >evidence that they are used at all in those areas. (The acid rest he >mentions is a matter of a few hours or less, not days.) I have read the article and recall scribbling red ink all over it. For those who have not read it, Noonan talks about souring the beer with naturally occuring bacteria on the husks of malt. Indeed, this is sour mashing. I'd like to point out that it's NOT the "acid rest" that is used by some brewers. The "acid rest" is enzymatic (phytase, I believe) rather than bacterial -- I know Jeff didn't mean this, but it could have been confusing to some. Al. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 16:22 CST From: korz at iepubj.att.com Subject: Dry Hopping Infections/Tate & Lyle Golden Syrup and Treacle Dan writes: >Anyway, it's pretty clear that the greatest risk of infection is before >fermentation. No confusion there. Presumably the bacteria produce bad >flavors, then are overwhelmed by the yeast, PH, and/or alcohol. Right? Not quite. The greatest risk is, indeed, before fermentation and from two sources: 1) infected starter/yeast and 2) airbourne or fermenter-surface bacteria (in scratches, for example) getting a foothold in your beer during long lag times. Unless you *sterilize* everything, and work in a clean room, you will always have some bacteria and wild yeast in your beer. The question is, if there will be enough of them to make a difference in the flavor and if they will survive long enough to make a difference. If you pitch a clean, healthy, viable, populous starter into a reasonably clean wort of a similar temperature, under good conditions (e.g. no grain dust in the air), your yeast will eat most of the nutrients, consume most of the oxygen and soon create a blanket of CO2 which will keep away new airbourne nasties. The wild yeast and bacteria are there and are creating off flavors and aromas, but in such small amounts that it does not reach our perception threshold. When fermentation is complete, whatever bacteria have not been killed by the pH and alcohol, are (if everything went well) again in such small numbers that their products are below the perception threshold. >However, the recent dry hop & bacteria thread has made me wonder about >post-ferment. Some HBD articles have indicated that once fermentation >is complete, the beer is hostile to bacteria, so no worries. Don't worry, but don't be foolish -- maintain good, sanitary technique. Would you eat a sandwich you dropped on the garage floor? >On the other hand, I've read several times that "gushers" are caused by >infections. The idea there is that the bacteria eat stuff that the >yeast don't, resulting in over carbonation during long term storage. Back when I was a beginner, using dry yeasts that have since been found to have had big problems with bacterial counts (see the Yeast Special Issue of Zymurgy), I would (with certain yeasts) get gushers after a few months. In looking through that early logbook, I can't find a single batch that ended up a gusher that could not be attributed to infected dry yeast except for one. That one batch's problems are quite involved (clogged blowoff tube, whole cherries added, 8 hours of an open fermenter, etc. etc.) so data from it is difficult to extract. In summary, if you pitch good, clean yeast and not shock them, and maintain good sanitation techniques, you can expect to not have bacterial problems. If you choose to add dryhops, do your best to keep them sanitary (within reason) and don't add them until fermentation is virtually over. ******************************** Someone (sorry) mentioned something about an embargo regarding the Tate & Lyle's Syrups. My understanding is that several months ago, the US withheld the import of Tate & Lyle's products from the UK because they would not (or could not) provide proof that they were not made with Cuban sugar. The embargo mentioned is obviously our restrictions on trade with Cuba. I don't know if the sightings of the T&L products are just existing stock or if the import restriction has been lifted. ************************** Drew writes: > In yesterday's (I hope) HBD, Chuck Wettergreen posted a method for >making invert sugar. Has anyone used this stuff as a priming agent? >I was curious if the breaking down of the sugars would inhibit the >oxygen generating crabtree effect. I think we need to first talk about the Crabtree effect. It does not produce oxygen, rather it is the effect by which yeast abandon respiration and perform anaerobic fermentation despite available O2 if the concentration of monosaccharides like glucose (dextrose) and fructose are sufficiently high. The issue, as it applies to us, is whether priming with malt extract will cause the yeast to respire the O2 introduced during bottling or whether priming with corn sugar (glucose) is equivalent in this respect. My experience has shown that, given my procedures, there were no problems with oxidation in my beers, regardless of whether I primed with malt extract or corn sugar. I therefore changed back to corn sugar. With all due respect to Reinheitsgebot, I prefer Belgian and English beers... beers that would have Delbruck and Sedlmeyer spinning in their graves. Al. Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1277, 11/20/93