HOMEBREW Digest #1552 Fri 14 October 1994

Digest #1551 Digest #1553


	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Homebrewing Survey (James Clark)
  (commercial)    construction update (Jim Sims)
  AHA Stuff (John DeCarlo              )
  Federal Law on Homebrewing (John DeCarlo              )
  Mashing With Steam (Richard A Childers)
  Wyeast 'optimum' temperature (Richard A Childers)
  Dry yeasts ... Gary politely asks if he's missing something :-) (Chris Lyons)
  charm, charm and beer (Jeff Frane)
  Dry yeasts ... (Chris Lyons)
  Holiday Cardamom Ale (M. Andrew Newman)
  BAD!! comments on step mash wi (Bob_McIlvaine)
  Re: EasyMashyer (Paul Ganci)
  Yeast, extract and mashes (1551) (BrewerLee)
  Legalities (Phil Duclos)
  HBD Quality (npyle)
  Shipping, mailers ("Ulick Stafford")
  Zapap defended (again) (Nancy.Renner)
  IBU's ("David Sapsis")
  Wyeast 1338, Food Grade Plastics, Vinyl Beer (Keith Frank)
  Steam (Pat Anderson)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 00:29:19 -0700 (PDT) From: James Clark <jeclark at ucdavis.edu> Subject: Homebrewing Survey hi everyone! i don't know if anyone remembers me, but i was an hbd'er about six months ago. i then lost access tot he internet for a while, but now i'm back. (stop groaning! :)) i am currently writing a research report on homebrewing and the brewing industry. as part of my research i am distributing a 14 question survey. if anyone would like to help out and take the survey, please send me a message saying so and i will send the survey to you via internet. thanks a lot. - --james jeclark at ucdavis.edu p.s. i have sent two messages to the hbd request adress asking to be re SUBSCRIBE d to the digest, but have not yet received any response. if this is the wrong way to subscribe, would someone please tell me the correct way. tx. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 07:08:27 EDT From: sims at scra.org (Jim Sims) Subject: (commercial) construction update The Charleston Beer Works' home page has moved - we kept getting failed accesses due to teh mixed case name. You can now find them at: http://www.sims.net/organizations/chasbeerworks/chasbeerworks.html Check next week for updated prices, expanded entries, and special offers. jim Disclaimer: None at all. I "operate" the SIMS Internet Mall at http://www.sims.net/themall.html - Josh (CBW's owner) is a customer of mine, I'm a customer of his. He's a good guy. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 08:28:33 EST From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org> Subject: AHA Stuff >From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583) >Phil writes: >> I had hoped that someone like the AHA would smooth this process out with >>UPS so that all homebrewers could ship their homebrew without hassle. Alas, >>AHA is in the business of printing magazines not assisting homwbrewers. >The AHA is in the business of running the National Competition, sanctioning >homebrew competitions and organizing the National Conference. Zymurgy is in >the business of printing magazines. Both are divisions of the Association of >Brewers which includes a couple of other branches like Brewer's Publications >and the Institute of Brewing Studies. There are a handful of paid employees >in the AoB and all the rest of the work is done by volunteers. So... Are you saying that the AHA has no paid employees? And why isn't the AHA in the business of encouraging homebrewing/homebrewers? And if they are in the business of running the National Competition, that means they are in the business of making it possible to send entries. I think you are avoiding the real issue, Al. The AHA isn't willing to step up to almost any of the issues they reasonably should be addressing. And they don't do that good a job of what they do, anyway. It doesn't matter whether they are all paid or all volunteer or a mix. A more responsible organization would do what they could to encourage homebrewing, whether it was just encouraging AHA members to go on a letter-writing campaign, or actually speaking out on issues directly. Not to mention lobbying. It's a shame that the AHA has so much trouble with this concept--very few other similar organizations (even those with fewer resources) have this kind of problem. John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own Fidonet: 1:109/131 Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 08:54:54 EST From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org> Subject: Federal Law on Homebrewing Kirk Harralson writes: >When I spoke to the BATF about this, they said the law on home brewing >specifically stated that it is legal for private consumption only, and should >never be shipped out of the person's residence in the first place. He had >never heard of a homebrew competition, and was not sure of their stance on >it. Does anyone know how far the specific language "private consumption only" >goes? First of all, like the people at UPS and everywhere else, the people at BATF don't usually have much of a clue about homebrewing. Of course they *think* they do. However, there is a provision about "illegal removal", for which I don't have any of the relevant text. It *does* sound chilling, though. Note that at the end of these quotes, UNLAWFUL PRODUCTION specifically exempts homebrewers, but UNLAWFUL REMOVAL doesn't. Hmmm. Second, let me quote what it says in Federal law--this is from the tax code: "(e) BEER FOR PERSONAL OR FAMILY USE.-- Subject to regulations prescribed by the Secretary any adult may, without payment of tax, produce beer for personal or family use and not for sale. The aggregate amount of beer exempt from tax under this subsection with respect to any household shall not exceed-- "(l) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are 2 or more adults in such household, or "(2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only 1 adult in such household. For purposes of this subsection, the term 'adult' means an individual who has attained 18 years of age or the minimum age, if any, estab- lished by law applicable in the locality in which the household is situated for individuals to whom beer may be sold, whichever is greater." ... "(c) ILLEGALLY PRODUCED BEER.-- The production of any beer at any place in the United States shall be subject to tax at the rate prescribed in subsection (a) and such tax shall be due and payable as provided in section 5054 (a) (3) unless-- "(l) such beer is produced in a brewery qualified under the provisions of subchapter G, or (2) such production is exempt from tax under section 5053 (e) (relating to beer for personal or family use)." ... "(3) ILLEGALLY PRODUCED BEER.-- The tax on any beer produced in the United States shall be due and payable immediately upon production unless-- "(A) Such beer is produced in a brewery qualified under the provisions of subchapter G, or "(B) such production is exempt from tax under section 5053 (e) (relating to beer for personal or family use).". ... "SEC. 5674. PENALTY FOR UNLAWFUL PRODUCTION OR REMOVAL OF BEER. "(a) UNLAWFUL PRODUCTION.-- Any person who brews beer or produces beer shall be fined not more than $1,000, or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both, unless such beer is brewed or produced in a brewery qualified under subchapter G or such production is exempt from tax under section 5053 (e) (relating to beer for personal or family use). "(b) UNLAWFUL REMOVAL.-- Any brewer or other person who removes or in any way aids in the removal from any brewery of beer without complying with the provisions of this chapter or regulations issued pursuant thereto shall be fined not more than $1,000, or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both." John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own Fidonet: 1:109/131 Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 06:01:17 -0700 From: pascal at netcom.com (Richard A Childers) Subject: Mashing With Steam Jay Marshall <marshall#d#jay at ssdgwy.mdc.com> asks : "I've got an old pressure cooker that no longer seals very well that I thought might find new life in my brewery. BTW, does anyone know how I could get a new seal for an old Presto pressure cooker?" I, too, have an old Presto cooker that I cannot obtain new seals for. I ended up going out and buying a new pressure cooker. And lots of spare seals. However, one of my little projects is to drill out the hole where the seal was, and install a pressure gauge in its place. And, let's face it, a pressure gauge is almost as good as a safety valve and in many ways a lot better, provided you *watch* it. So don't give up ... and don't throw away your Presto. ( And let HBD know if you find a source for seals. :-) - -- richard "I gathered I wasn't very well liked. Somehow, the feeling pleased me." _Nine Princes In Amber_, by Roger Zelazny richard childers san francisco, california pascal at netcom.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 06:05:18 -0700 From: pascal at netcom.com (Richard A Childers) Subject: Wyeast 'optimum' temperature William F. Cook <71533.2750 at compuserve.com> asks : "I've noticed that Wyeast publishes, along with their yeast descriptions, an "optimum" fermentation temperature. Does anyone have any insight as to what criteria are used to determine this "optimum" ?" Well, they cultivate the stuff in laboratories ... we may assume that they pay careful attention to the temperature of the cultures ... (-: - -- richard "I gathered I wasn't very well liked. Somehow, the feeling pleased me." _Nine Princes In Amber_, by Roger Zelazny richard childers san francisco, california pascal at netcom.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 09:12:55 EDT From: Chris Lyons <Chris.Lyons at analog.com> Subject: Dry yeasts ... Gary politely asks if he's missing something :-) > What am I missing?. I hear all this about the trouble with liquid yeast, > having to make a starter for it etc... > I use the 1 pouch YEAST Lab brand of liquid yeast. I pop the inner bag > about 1-2 days before pitching, it gets pregnant, I sanitize the bag > surface, and pitch. No mess, no starter, no problem, great beer. > Am I missing something, or is you're subject matter beyond the scope of > this (my) text. > > Gary Gary, I think you may be missing something (other than your manners :-)). The number of yeast cells provided in the Wyeast pouches is rather low! This allows very little room for mishaps and/or lack of cleanliness. The reason you what a high pitching rate is so that you can get the jump on the wild yeasts that are present (and there will always be some present). You can do this very well with two-to-three packages of dry yeast for a cost of approximately $1.50. I would guess (... this is just a guess based on previous experience) that you would need at least 6 Wyeast packages to get the same jump on fermentation, at a cost of approximately $24.00. The benifits of dry yeast are clear. Using dry yeast is far cheaper for insuring proper pitching rates, and is much easier to use (no poping packages and waiting 2 +/- 1 day to get the brew going). The question always comes back to the quality of dry yeasts ... and this has improved significantly over the last two years. IMHO, one of the major reasons that dry yeasts have gotten such a bad rap is because they are the major choice of beginners. Like many things, brewing improves with experience and acquired good techniques. However, its easier to blame the results of the first few batches on the use of dry yeast, rather than the lack of technique. Regards & happy brewing, Chris Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 07:09:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Frane <gummitch at teleport.com> Subject: charm, charm and beer > Steve Elwood launches his HBD career: > > Here's an idea...let's discuss what the regulations are regarding the > shipping of alcoholic beverages (specifically beer!) across state lines. > Hello...is there anyone left out there who is actually still interested in > what Jim-Bob Seersucker thinks about the internal policies and management > decisions at UPS?! I mean the HBD has become a forum for any "puke" to > either bash people who actually have valid brewing questions (although maybe > not in the eyes of the wolves lurking the Internet), or spew there opinions > (quite annoying) over, and over, and over adnauseam. (By-the-by this is my > first post) Personally, I wish more people would fight the urge to interject > their every thought into the "Once Enjoyable" HBD. Furthermore, what would > make me absolutely ecstatic (as if anyone gives a sh*t) is if every message > didn't end with the banner "Hoppy Brewing." > Venting, anyone? Al Kornzonas writes: > > If this is important to you, then by all means volunteer to help the AHA > smooth out the beer shipping process. The AHA is in the business of > running the National Competition, sanctioning homebrew competitions and > organizing the National Conference. Zymurgy is in the business of printing > magazines. Both are divisions of the Association of Brewers which includes > a couple of other branches like Brewer's Publications and the Institute of > Brewing Studies. There are a handful of paid employees in the AoB and all ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > the rest of the work is done by volunteers. So... > Could be time to check on this piece of "data". Of course, as a member of the BofA, I was never to actually get any figures on this, but my sense is that the AoB isn't quite as volunteer-driven as we like to imagine. Certainly, shipping is a *big* issue related to the competition and well behooves study by the AHA -- also, the AHA can thrown muscle around and volunteers (who would have trouble representing themselves as AHA) can't. > > I'll bet that back when Miller was writing his book, there were only > pretty crappy crystal malts available to the homebrewer and maybe that ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Once again, an odd assumption. I've been using British caramel malts for years, well before Miller's book appeared, and there's nothing crappy about them. American malts, now, well that's a different story... Kirk Harralson wrote: > > When I spoke to the BATF about this, they said the law on home brewing > specifically stated that it is legal for private consumption only, and should > never be shipped out of the person's residence in the first place. He had never > heard of a homebrew competition, and was not sure of their stance on it. Does > anyone know how far the specific language "private consumption only" goes? > Just goes to show how helpful government employees can be. We had an attorney research this a number of years back, and found that the Federales were neutral on the subject; *states*, on the other hand, add restrictions from time to time. In general, however, and bearing in mind that not only am I not a lawyer but my tongue isn't bifurcated: "private consumption" means you, your family and your friends in your home, *and* legitimate tastings. In theory, at least in Oregon, you're not even supposed to take your beer over to someone else's house. However, the BATF and the OLCC have better (!) things to do with their time (someone say Waco?). What they're *really* concerned about is the notion that you might be selling your beer. Do that and it'll really hit the fan. - --Jeff (not a technical advisor for anyone!) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 10:09:58 EDT From: Chris Lyons <Chris.Lyons at analog.com> Subject: Dry yeasts ... To hbd readers, Sorry about the earlier crack regarding Gary's manners. I misread Gary's posting. In re-reading it I understand that I misinterpreted the context ... my apologies to Gary & the hbd readers. Regards, Chris Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 10:19:04 -0400 From: laszlo at helix.nih.gov (M. Andrew Newman) Subject: Holiday Cardamom Ale Greetings to the Digest Crew! This is my first posting after months of being a silent interloper. A few weeks back someone posted a request for spiced "holiday" brews. Well, here is an extract recipe that I found delightful... Laszlo's Curmudgeonly Cardamom Ale 0.5 kg crystal malt 1.5 kg Laaglander light dried malt extract 1 can Cooper's (Australian) Bitter Ale Extract (hopped) 50 g Kent Goldings hop pellets(boiling) 25 g Fuggles hop pellets (finishing) 2 Tbsp cardamom seeds, without husks (last 10 min of boiling) 2 pkg ale yeast 500 ml dark molasses (for bottling) Put grains in a large Ziploc bag and coarsely crack them. Add grains to 6 L cold water, heat to 75oC, and simmer 15 min. Pour through a strainer into 6 L water in a new container, heat to boil, then add malt extracts and boiling hops. Boil 45 min, then add the finishing hops and cardamom. Add wort to 8 L cold water in cleaned and sterilized 20 - 28 L fermentor. Possibly my best creation yet, although it required patience. A good amber color, well-hopped and wonderfully carbonated. Initially, the cardamom gave an extremely unpleasant bitter aftertaste (actually, it smelled like PUKE!) that eventually mellowed into a delicious flavor after 2 months in the bottle. Brew it now, and it'll be just ready for Christmas! Peace. Drew laszlo at helix.nih.gov Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 09:59:08 EDT From: Bob_McIlvaine at keyfile.com Subject: BAD!! comments on step mash wi Rich Webb sez: > ....read article in BT... >Essentially, one must vent steam under pressure into the mash. The rest is >detail. I have a pressure cooker that has a stem on top. This is usually >where the small weight for increasing the pressure goes. For steam >injection, >***** a hose of some sort must be clamped onto this stem.*** > This would.... This is ***absolutely***!!!!! a bad idea and is NOT what was recomended the article in BT suggested. The weight is used to regulate the pressure,block that hole that the weight sits on and you'll either pop the safty valve on the p-cooker or if it's blocked you'll stand a chance of a steam explosion. Believe me, you don't want to see flesh after a super heated steam explosion. It makes the guy with the stitches from his broken carboy seem like a childrens story. Mac Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 10:29:15 EDT From: Paul Ganci <Paul.Ganci at analog.com> Subject: Re: EasyMashyer Hello Everyone, Cliff asks: > > I was wondering if anyone out there has tried an EasyMasher by Jack > Schmidling Productions. James Spence in the Summer 1994 issue of Zymurgy > seemed to give it a pretty favorable review. I was wondering what the opinion > of other brewers was. Are the comments made in the review accurate? > >> These first runnings were incredibly clear. In fact not a single particle >> of grain >was visible. I was truly amazed at this efficiency. >> The straining system is so efficient it is unnecessary to be overly >> concerned about a properly set grain bed, channeling of the grain or a set >> mash. > > Does the EasyMasher work well enough to minimize if not eliminate the need to > recirculate the wort? What size mash-tuns do you use with it? What are the > impressions of users out there in homebrew land? Please e-mail privately, I > don't want to start a bunch of hoopla over acertain product, I am just > curious and thinking about buying one. I currently own 2 EasyMashers: one in my 7 Gallon Gott Cooler for mash lautering and one in my 8 Gallon brewpot for hop/hot break removal. I will say that I am quite pleased by them (BTW I have no interests in Jack Schmidling Productions ... I'm just a satisfied customer). I have found that I must still recirculate some of my initial mash runnings, but for the most part I only need to collect ~2cups worth before I have crystal clear wort. I still take care, however, in attempting to get a reasonably set grain bed despite the efficiency of filtering of the EasyMasher. Typically I will get ~30pts yield from my mashes. I have only ever had 2 problems and both were more or less self-inflicted (keep those loaded guns away from one's toes). The EasyMasher is very easy to clean. Simply undo the screw on the clamp which holds the filter screen in place. I usually take this screen off and boil it. This is great as long as you remember not only to put it back onto the copper tube, but tighten the clamp screw! Well, guess what I forgot to do!? This error plugged the EasyMasher spigot and tube ... took quite a while to get the junk out. The only other problem occured in my brew pot. I used Perle pellets (the local supply place didn't have anything else). The screen on the EasyMasher became completely embedded with hop residues/hot break material. If you choose to use one of these devices in your brew pot I recommend you use only whole hops or hop plugs. Finally, I discovered that our local hardware store will sell me the parts necessary to build an EasyMasher for ~1/2 the price Jack will sell you one (sorry Jack). However, I for one believe their is some usefulness for the U.S. Postal service ... even if they won't ship homebrew! Paul Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 10:49:48 -0400 From: BrewerLee at aol.com Subject: Yeast, extract and mashes (1551) Gary Dubovic asks about yeast: > What am I missing?. I hear all this about the trouble with liquid yeast, > having to make a starter for it etc... > I use the 1 pouch YEAST Lab brand of liquid yeast. I pop the inner bag > about 1-2 days before pitching, it gets pregnant, I sanitize the bag > surface, and pitch. No mess, no starter, no problem, great beer. Some of us maintain our own cultures on agar slants. I have 21 cultures for various styles in my fridge (YeastLab has 17 I belive). When coming up from a slant, the starter is a two-step process, the first for 10 ml, the second up to 500 ml. The smak-pacs you use are fine, but you will realize even better results by pitching that into a starter (5 TB DME in 2-1/2 cups water, boil for 5 mins and cool) and allowing that to come into full krauesen before pitching. Technically, the amount you pitch from a smak-pak isn't enough, especially for a lager but good sanitation practices minimize the problems. What you are doing is still far and away better than dry, there is still someplace to make it better. ************ John Keane posted concerns about: > I noticed that the top and > bottom of all four cans on the shelf were bulging slightly outward, as > though the contents were under pressure. The cans were all before > their marked expiration date. The contents are under pressure. It seems that as extract gets older it crystalizes and this seems to liberate gas of some sort. I don't think it is infection of any kind. Besides, you boil anyway, right. I think the worst thing that could happen is you get a sour-mash... not at all innapropriate for a stout. :) Nah, don't worry, just open it slow to allow it to escape without splattering you. ****************** Tom Parent expressed concern about his pumpkin ale: > I'm concerned that when I > dumped the beer off the top of the carboy, I dumped most of the still active > yeast along with it. Can this happen? It technically could, but I don't think so. It's probably about fermented out. Let it sit and check the SG in a day or so if there is no activity. ************************* Jim Busch queries: > On another topic. What types of "plastics" are food grade? We need > to construct a large hop bag for dry hopping and are interested in the > types of poly_xxx , etc that qualify as food grade. I think that the numbers relate to the recycling process in some way, but I coud be way off an that one. Food grade is a plastic that has not been recycled, new plastic if you wiil.. That's the way I understand it anyway. ******************** Erik A. Speckman writes: > I only sparged until I collected about 4.5 > gal. but I still got about 30 pts. per pound of grain. I don't think you undersparged. .032 points per pound is about all I get in my system and that has been optimized. Nobody (except for Dave Miller) gets .035 pts/lb! :) As long as I'm replying to your post: > Good Brain Doesn't Suck What does theat mean? -Lee Bussy lee.bussy at twsubbs.twsu.edu BrewerLee at aol.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 09:01:50 MDT From: pjd at craycos.com (Phil Duclos) Subject: Legalities Kirk - Did you find out what paperwork is required to set up alcohol shipments with UPS? Would you be at all interested in helping to get the AHA and UPS to see eye to eye on homebrewers shipping beer in those states where its legal? I realize that people are going to ship whatever they like to wherever they like in flagrant violation of both state and federal laws. Nothing we do will stop this. But maybe we can find a way to do it legally for folks shipping to competitions, etc. I expected that you would encounter a great deal of confusion within UPS. I did. Its a shame. I do understand the counter personnel's attitude, however. It sure would be nice to have a handful of paperwork to hand them to make them happy and accept my shipment, however. UPS may not be interested in the business, but if a way could be found to smooth out the wrinkles I'm sure most homebrewers would ship UPS. The BATF is a poor source of information. Yes, they are in the enforcement business and can make life extremely difficult for you, but they aren't lawyers or judges and, in spite of whatever action they take, its the courts who decide. I'll see what other sources of info I can find. Had a visit from the Colorado State Liquor Board at our homebrew club planning meeting. It seems that until this spring there was no provision in the state law which would allow homebrew competitions to be legal. So the AHA National conventions held in Denver and the State Fair, etc were all illegal. Bummer. It seems that we have now been brought to the attention of the legislature and enforcement agencies. I expect the scrutiny to increase. It now becomes more important for organizations auch as homebrew clubs to pay attention to the law as the organizers may be held liable if they get caught. For those of you who reside outside California, Colorado, Idaho, Illinois, Missouri, New Mexico, Oregon and Wisconsin, perhaps you should approach your state legislature with a proposal to exempt homebrewers from the ban on interstate shipment of alcohol and consumption during competitions. Making yourself known to the powers that be is hazardous, but a big media scandal about lawless activity would do the same and prejudice your case. I would expect more scrutiny anyway as homebrewing becomes more popular. I am sorry if this topic is boring you or you feel that its not applicable to the HBD. I am NOT a lawyer and I don't play one on TV. If there is a dark side to homebrewing it is the casual attitude that we have towards the law. The enforcement people aren't stupid and as we become more visible they will be out looking for violators. Being aware of the laws and working to change them ahead of time sure beats arrest records, lawyers fees, fines and jail time. Ignorance is not a defense. Phil Duclos pjd at craycos.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 9:01:37 MDT From: npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM Subject: HBD Quality Steve Elwood, in his first ever post writes: >.......................I mean the HBD has become a forum for any "puke" to >either bash people who actually have valid brewing questions (although maybe >not in the eyes of the wolves lurking the Internet), or spew there opinions >(quite annoying) over, and over, and over adnauseam. (By-the-by this is my >first post) Personally, I wish more people would fight the urge to interject >their every thought into the "Once Enjoyable" HBD. Furthermore, what would >make me absolutely ecstatic (as if anyone gives a sh*t) is if every message >didn't end with the banner "Hoppy Brewing." Nice job. This is the closest thing I've seen to real flamebait since the MALT Prez told us we're wasting his time. Over in the college football group they call this fishing, and well, you caught me. Congratulations. My real point is that I've been really impressed with the content of the HBD for the past couple weeks. It has its problems, but in the past week alone we've discussed: Dry vs. Liquid Yeast New method of step mashing with heat exchanger Over/under Pitching Open vs. Closed Fermentation Heat capacities as they relate to strike temperatures Hop Moisture Content Filtering air/oxygen for wort aeration Safety issues with carboys Building a roller mill Converting water heaters for the homebrewery Homebrew Competitions Look at that list and tell me we're a bunch of "pukes" "spewing" all over your tube. I just want to take this opportunity to thank the group for the lively and intelligent discussions we've had recently, even though Steve doesn't seem to like it. Norm npyle at hp7013.ecae.stortek.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 10:17:53 -0500 (EST) From: "Ulick Stafford" <ulick at ulix.rad.nd.edu> Subject: Shipping, mailers Hmm, shipping homebrews has reared its ugly head with some concern over the ridiculous laws the USA has over alcoholic beverages. It is hardly a surprise that shipping alcohol isn't a bureaucratic mess. Anyone who has noticed the way alcohol retail laws vary so much for state to state should not be surprised. It is all part of the attitude many in this country have to alcohol in general. Doctors go out of the way when questioned on the subject of 2 drinks a day being a health benefit, to say that people should not drink alcohol (despite a Danish study that says up to 5 a day is moderate), packaging carries stuff about pregnant women that I never heard in Europe - moderation being recommended there (no I do not want any responses on this point. I've had 'em all before). And then there is the 21 drinking age which is strictly enforced (here anyway), etc. Having said that, the USA isn't alone in having silly alcohol laws and attitudes. In my country, Ireland, there is a ridiculously early closing time, and high excise taxes, and difficult licensing laws. And no one has every really explained Ontario laws to me. Oops, digression. As for shipping, I shipped once from the UPS office in South Bend to the Chicago national site, said I was shipping homebrew and they took it without a batted eyelid. I usually ship from a package drop off which costs 50cents more for the convenience - it is on campus, and they never ask what is in the package, just its value. Re John Wyllie's (Coyote) mailer problem (not being able to scroll back to get the email address of someone without a sig), I suggest users of elm (on UNIX boxes) to use less as the reader instead of the builtin. Saving hbd files in a mail file seems like unnecessary disk space use. __________________________________________________________________________ 'Heineken!?! ... F#$% that s at &* ... | Ulick Stafford, Dept of Chem. Eng. Pabst Blue Ribbon!' | Notre Dame IN 46556 http://ulix.rad.nd.edu/Ulick.html | Ulick.Stafford at nd.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 11:19:28 EDT From: Nancy.Renner at um.cc.umich.edu Subject: Zapap defended (again) (From *Jeff* Renner) First, a definition, since our jargon can throw off beginners. A Zapap, first described in print by Charlie Papazian (as far as I know), is a lauter tun made up of one food grade plastic bucket nested in another. The inner one has a gazillion small hole drilled in the bottom (false bottom), and the outer one has a tap. My improvements are described below. BrewerLee (Lee Bussy) replies to Gregg's low gravity problem: >The Zap-pap system, while OK for partial mashes, has it's limitations >as a lauter tun. The increased deadspace unter the first bucket, lack >of insulation and size all contribute to low yield mashes. I have not found the above problems to be true, especially if you make a few improvements on Charlie's original design. First, let me say that there are lots of good mash/lautering setups - insulated Gotts, cut off Sankeys, etc. with EMs, manifolds, PhalseBottoms, and whatnot. They all have their advantages, and we often like best what we have and defend it as best. The Zapap is no more the best for everyone than any other, but it's cheap and efficient. I've been using one for 15 years and get 30 points*gallon/lb since switching to a MaltMill. Before that, I used a Corona and got about 3 or 4 points higher extract, but runoffs were slower and occasionally stuck. I'm sure that if I slowed my runoff to where it was with the Corona, I'd recoup the loss, but I'd rather go for the one gallon per six minutes I get (and that's with the stopcock open only halfway). About capacity. It depends on how much capacity you need. By caulking between the buckets (food grade caulk only, please), you can fill a Zapap made with five gallon buckets with as much as 13 pounds of grains with more than 1 quart of mash water per pound. Six gallon buckets are available. This caulking also keeps you from pulling air through the gap with less grain, which is why I first did it. The 13 pounds gives me 7.5 gallons at 1.052 to ferment in my Sankey or 6.75 gallons at 1.058 for a 7 gallon carboy. That's as much as I can handle on a stovetop. If I want a stronger beer, I can't use more than five gallons anyway, so I can get 1.077. For a barley wine, I'll ferment in a three gallon carboy. Insulating it is possible (and desirable). I have found that the bottom of the Styrofoam shipping container for a 7 gallon carboy works beautifully. (St. Pat's was selling these (the carboys) for $11 plus shipping, around $6 to Michigan). Sometimes I throw a small blanket over the top. Once it is preheated and filled with mashed-off grain, the Zapap holds the temperature perfectly. To preheat it, I fill it with near boiling water and run it out. This drops the water to ~180^F, about right for sparging. Finally, dead space under the false bottom. This can be reduced by about half by cutting off the bottom ring on the inner bucket. But as I've posted here before, what's the problem? Unless you are trying for maximum SG from your first runnings (like for a barley wine followed by a small beer with second runnings), just treat this dilute first runoff as your first sparge water and add it back to the top. By the time I've recirculated for clarity and then run off three or four gallons, I'm sure that I've extracted the same as if I had no dead space. I think Gregg needs to look elsewhere for his low extract. As I suggested in a private e-mail, first he ought to check his hydrometer. Then techniques. It's a poor carpenter that blames his tools. Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor c/o nerenner at umich.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 09:48:04 CST From: "David Sapsis" <dbsapsis at nature.Berkeley.EDU> Subject: IBU's Norm (HBD 1551) disagrees with my statement about the voracity of using estimates of IBU's in homebrewing for cross-comparisons. He makes some valid points about information content, and my use of the word "meaningless". Yes in the context of added information, this is a poor word choice. However, let me expand on my meaning. First, how often are homebrewers reports of IBU's prefaced by the word "estimated"? Second, how often is the formula used to obtain that estimate also stated? With published ranges of full-kettle, moderate gravity, utilization rates ranging from 20 to 30%, there is a whole lot of variability that could account for my estimate being a whole lot different that your estimate using the same quantity of hops. I have it on good authority that the commercial brewing industry and the Davis Program maintain that the only way to determine utilization rates is by direct measurement. Most homebrewers do not do this. Rather, they rely on published standards for estimation, or better yet, do comparisons with known standards from measurement (i.e., comparing my beer with x grams/L boiled for 60 minutes with commercial beer of measured y IBU's). I have found that most rely on the former method, and I believe that my experience has shown that actual utization does vary quite a bit. The problem of trying to determine which factors are causal in utilization are confounded by interactions amongst the variables (e.g., yeast characteristics, wort composition, fermenter geometry, hop type, hop bag yes/no, use of secondary, fining agents used, etc.) It is very difficult to control for any single one of these variables when comparing across breweries. Hence, it is my belief that comparisons of bitterness are best relegated to within your own brewery, at least until a relatively accurate estimate of utilization can be obtained. And as soon as you change one of the major factors influencing utilization, you're previously valid estimation routine has to be reformulated. For me, who is constantly changing yeasts, mashing schedules, primary ferment temps, etc., it is not surprising that my apparent utilization (as estimated in my mouth) is constantly changing. I have done a lot of mouth calibration, and I think I can estimate within 5 IBU's or so (at least between the 10 and 40 IBU range), so this is what I use to estimate actual bitterness. I assume when norm says that he is close to his target 30 IBU, this is how he figures this out as well. Now if you are actually measuring IBU's and comparing them to estimates, and you find them to work (as Al K. posted for one beer), then great. I just do not believe that this will work across a large variation of styles and methods in a single brewery, let alone between different breweries. That said, I did not mean to imply that ball-park estimates are not a good piece of information to be transferred. Yes norm, I too would choose B. However, given the apparent lack of standardized equations for IBU's, I guess what I meant to say is that some actual measure of hops used when is best of all. The AAU measure is like this, however, its main problem is no standarization of per unit volume, and it only applies to full boil additions. I have employed a similar measure, whereby I multiply the grams added times the reported alpha content for a standardized 40 L batchsize. For instance: 100 g of 5 alpha gives 500 (SBU if you will). Using an assumed utilization of 25%, this would yield about 31 IBU. The deal is, I believe, (again, by taste measures alone) that this can actually result in something like 25-40 IBU. Maybe that does constitute ballpark, but certainly no better than the AAU does if you know how much volume it pertains to. In many of my beers I have gone away from mid kettle additions to try to get a handle on how well SPU's work, and what is influencing them. For instance, at least for me, I do not get significant drops in apparent utilization in very high gravity beers. I have repeatedly over-bittered my barleywines assuming poorer utilization than I am apparently getting. However, it would appear (though not always the case) that I tend to get better utilization than expected from even the most liberal of estimators. For those of you who tend to repeat proceedures and recipes, maybe a single equation will work well, and it might even be Ragers. If it does, go ahead and relay the information. Tell us how you came by your results. I will go on working up my data, trying to see if I can gain something better than "ballpark". - --Chukkah heyo dave ********************************************************************** David Sapsis dbsapsis at nature.berkeley.edu Wildland Fire Research Laboratory Dept. Environmental Science, Policy, and Management U C Berkeley voice: (510)642-8053 fax:(510) 643-5438 "From fire everything is created, and in fire everything ends up." --Heracleitus (502 B.C.) ************************************************************************ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 12:14:56 -0500 From: keithfrank at dow.com (Keith Frank) Subject: Wyeast 1338, Food Grade Plastics, Vinyl Beer *** From Bruce DeBolt *** Barry Nisly asked about Wyeast 1338 - my experience has been the same, this yeast just keeps going, going, going. I've only used three Wyeasts - 1338, 1056, and the English Ale (can't remember number). English Ale goes like crazy and is finished in 2-3 days, 1338 takes a long time and 1056 is in between. I make about a 2 cup starter for each batch. Jim Busch asked about food grade plastics. I know of one source for information (there are probably other regulations as well). They are listed on pages 202-203 in Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 21, part 177. There are two lists - one for ".. Single and Repeated Use Food Contact Surfaces" and a shorter one for "Substances for Use Only as Compontents of Articles Intended for Repeated Use". The list is way too long for me to type and many plastics probably wouldn't be suitable for beer anyway. Perhaps someone else in HBD-land has a practical list. The FDA regs list chemical descriptions, not commercial names. On a similar vein I recently bought some (siphon) tubing from a local hardware store with a disastrous result. I made sure it was FDA grade tubing, very similar to the one I had bought before at a homebrew supply store, but slightly larger in diameter with a thinner wall. It was easier to get on and off the racking cane and appeared to be a perfect substitute. I washed it with soap and hot water, rinsed, and sanitized with iodophor as usual. When I bottled my beer, which tasted fine in the fermenter, there was a sickening, new flavor that greeted my tastebuds. I had created Vinyl Cream Ale. After three weeks in the bottle it still has that wonderful plastic flavor. It tastes just like the tubing smells, and just like the new shower curtain. Kind of like water tastes out of a garden hose, with hops and malt thrown in. If you like looong, sustained flavor, I've got two cases of it. Lesson - not all FDA grade plastics are flavor neutral, although they may be "safe". Stick to what you know, or give it a good sniff test first. Bruce DeBolt c/o keithfrank at dow.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 00:56:00 -0800 From: pat.anderson at f52.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Pat Anderson) Subject: Steam From: Richard B. Webb <rbw1271 at appenine.ca.boeing.com> >Essentially, one must vent steam under pressure into the mash. The rest is >detail. I have a pressure cooker that has a stem on top. This is usually >where the small weight for increasing the pressure goes. For steam >injection, a hose of some sort must be clamped onto this stem. This would This is probably not the safest way to go...leave the stem for the weight, it is your pressure regulator. You want the pressure to stay under 5 psi. You should have both a pressure regulator and a safety plug that will blow out if the stem for the weight gets clogged (it won't with just water of course). I went through the pressure cooker lid with a bulkhead fitting, to a short nipple, an ell and finally a draincock with a flare fitting. The mash tun has a draincock with a flare fitting. The steam travels through about 5' feet of flexible copper tubing with a flare nut on each end. I have brewed with this, and it works like a dream...(You may taste the most recent beer - in in the Bros. Novembeerfest). Vent the air from the cooker and the tube by blowing steam through for several minutes before attaching to the mash tun, and yes, you have to use pot holders to handle the tube, or maybe wrap the whole length in some kind of insulation (thinking about this). I would not "stir the mash with steam" asyou suggested, just use it to go through your temperature program. Until I get a RIMS, this is the next next best way to do it. Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1552, 10/14/94