HOMEBREW Digest #1582 Fri 18 November 1994

Digest #1581 Digest #1583

		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor

  Plastic Bottle Crates (grobbins)
  Re: Buffalo Brewing Company (Frank Caico)
  Update to hops faq... (Robert Schultz)
  Hungarian beer style/recipe (mlittle)
  pure O2 / acronyms ("Mark J. Donnelly")
  Re: starters for lagers (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Microwaves and boiling beer ("v.f. daveikis")
  Bitter Beer / 800 #s / APAs (npyle)
  homebrew cider (MCKEOWND)
  Re: Brewpub Location (Rick Myers)
  Band-Aid Yeast Transport ("Manning Martin MP")
  Sanitation Question ("Craig A. Janson")
  Body/800 numbers/sterility and microwaves/corianderrors (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  file location request ("Robert Waddell")
  Beer-of-the-Month Clubs (Craig Mcpherson)

****************************************************************** * NEW POLICY NOTE: Due to the incredible volume of bouncing mail, * I am going to have to start removing addresses from the list * that cause ongoing problems. In particular, if your mailbox * is full or your account over quota, and this results in bounced * mail, your address will be removed from the list after a few days. * * If you use a 'vacation' program, please be sure that it only * sends a automated reply to homebrew-request *once*. If I get * more than one, then I'll delete your address from the list. ****************************************************************** Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com (Articles are published in the order they are received.) Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc., to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU), then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first. FAQs, archives and other files are available via anonymous ftp from sierra.stanford.edu. (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via mail from listserv at sierra.stanford.edu. Send HELP as the body of a message to that address to receive listserver instructions.) Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored. For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 05:34:54 EST From: grobbins at usaid.gov Subject: Plastic Bottle Crates Forwarded to: ismtp at basa14001 at servers[homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com] cc: Comments by: Gary Robbins at PRO at DHAKA -------------------------- [Original Message] ------------------------- Does anyone know where I can get some plastic crates to hold my bottles? The original cardboard boxes that held the bottles have just about had it. I use two different size bottles, Grolsch swing tops and another 24 oz bottle that is a bit smaller than the Grolsch. I live in Bangladesh so I am looking for a U.S. mail order supply, (I can get these through the mail) rather than generic ideas on where to get these in the U.S. Please send private e-mail. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 09:19:51 +0500 From: fcaico at ycc.Kodak.COM (Frank Caico) Subject: Re: Buffalo Brewing Company >>>>> "Charles" == Charles S Jackson <sjackson at ftmcclln-amedd.army.mil> writes: Charles writes previously: Charles> As the recipient of a gift subscription to Beer Across Charles> America (obviously no affiliation) I get teh opportunity to sample Charles> a nice selection of micro's. Last month I received a six'er of Charles> bier labeled: Charles> OKTOBERFEST German Styled Harvest Beer Charles> from teh Buffalo Brewing Company in Lackawanna, NY. It is bottled Charles> conditioned as evidenced by the scant dregs. The label gives no Charles> hint of the ingredients. Now I lived in Germany for over 8 years Charles> and drank, and drank, and drank beer. While I am not a fan of Charles> weizen, esp hefeweizen, I could stomach the krystalweizen, but I Charles> don't think I ever tasted a "harvest beer". This stuff is sour Charles> and not at all palatable. Is this potentially infected or is it Charles> supposed to be sour? Anybody want it? Four bottles left. E-mail Charles> seems most appropiate unless some of the masters think it deserves Charles> public discussion. Well, I am pretty familiar with the Buffalo Brewing Co's products and I can tell you that they are *not* bottle conditioned. But- I have also seen the problem you describe above. You do know that an Octoberfest is not made with wheat right? Well I had a Pils from the Buffalo Brewing Co. that had the exact same character you describe. I have also had good bottles of the Pils and they are completely different. I guess BBC has had some problems with contamination from time to time or something, because this is the only answer I can figure. I don't know if its wild yeast or not, but that would probably explain all the nasty characteristics (bottle conditioned appearance, sourness, thinness etc.). Frank - ---- __ __ __/\_\ -------------------------------------------------------- /_/\__ __/\_\/_/ Frank L. Caico Current Internet Address: \_\/_/\__ /\_\/_/\_\ TAD Data Services fcaico at ycc.kodak.com /_/\_\/_/\ \/_/\_\/_/ Rochester NY \_\/_/\_\/ \/_/\_\ /_/\_\/ \/_/ -------------------------------------------------------- \_\/ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 08:32:02 -0600 (CST) From: Robert Schultz <Robert.Schultz at usask.ca> Subject: Update to hops faq... Folks: I have been unofficially updating the Hops faq. Actually I 'grew' an interest hops this past year, two plants... and wanted to pass this as well as the entire faq onto my local brew club. I took the HOP faq and cleaned up the formating (moved it into MicroSoft Word 5.1) and added a couple of appendices -- some of the controversy with Rager's & Garetz's utilization numbers, pesticides and drying (I think). If this cleaned-up version is of interest to the net, I would be pleased to post it to the archive (need a bit of help here for write access I think). I do not plan it email it to individuals (and seeing my schedule til the new year may not reply to such requests...). But, I have gained a lot of info from this source, and would like to 'pay' back a bit if I may.... Rob. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Robert.Schultz at usask.ca, Senior Research Analyst, University of Saskatchewan ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ "I'm going off half-cocked? I'm going off half-cocked? ... ~ ~ Well, Mother was right - You can't argue with a shotgun." - Gary Larson ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:18:00 EST From: mlittle at cclink.draper.com Subject: Hungarian beer style/recipe <<<<<< Attached TEXT item follows >>>>>> Text item: Text_1 Hi Folks, A fellow brewer without hbd access is responsible for providing the beer for his gourmet clubs annual banquet. This year the theme is Hungarian food and drink. Anyone out there have an idea of what a 'Traditional Hungarian Beer' should be? If you have a recipe for a beer made with ale yeast (no lager fridge), or commercial examples he can copy, reply to me via private e-mail. Mark Return to table of contents
Date: 17 Nov 94 10:42:00 EDT From: "Mark J. Donnelly" <donnelly at nosgis.nr.state.ky.us> Subject: pure O2 / acronyms Regarding Jim Busch's posting to HBD1581: If you bubble pure O2 for 20-60 minutes and only end up with 8 mg/l DO, what happens to the rest of the O2? I think this is where the actual danger lies. I don't think anyone ever implied that the beer could ever catch fire. Caution certainly seems to be in order. *** On another subject (peripheral subject of the week?): from a Websters: Acronym = a WORD formed from initial letters of a name or by combining initial letters or parts of a series of words Abbreviation = a shortened form of a word or phrase used chiefly in writing to represent the full form Though you could call DMS an acronym (free speech is a constitutional right in the USA), the most correct term seems to me to be "abbreviation." I could pronounce the word beer "bee-ee-ee-are" (like "lets send the kids up to bee-ee-dee, honey") but I wouldn't call that normal speech. Or, we could call A-B beer, but swill seems to be a more appropriate term. Lets use the better word if it fits. I could also argue that DMS is not a word formed from the initial letters of a series of words, but is rather a shortened form of the word "dimethylsulfide" Cheers, Mark Donnelly in Lou'ville KY donnelly at nosapp.nr.state.ky.us Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 10:45:03 EST From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu Subject: Re: starters for lagers Algis R. Korzonas wrote about starters for lagers: > >1a. Should I have made that yeast starter at my Fermenting > >Temperature of 48F instead of 68F? > No. Making a starter is all about yeast growth, whereas fermentation is > another beast altogether. Starters for both ale and lager should be made at > room temperature (around 70-75F). I have to disagree here, Al. My yeast supplier (owner of the Yeast Culture Kit Company) has told me to grow my lager starters cold, especially with certain yeasts (e.g., the "Munich" strain, as I recall). He claims that when the starter is grown warm, the yeast "get used to it", and not work well at the cooler lager fermentation temperature (or will throw more "interesting" flavors and aromas than they should). He said that this is one reason that the "Munich" strain has a reputation for being "unstable" -- that most homebrewers grow the starter warm and then expect it to work cold. =Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:46:56 -0500 (EST) From: "v.f. daveikis" <vdaveiki at julian.uwo.ca> Subject: Microwaves and boiling beer Microwaves have been found to be the only effective way to rid underclothes of Candida albicans, the yeast that causes yeast infections in women. This is not a joke. I would assume that using a microwave to sterilize your bottles would be OK, even without water in them as any microorganisms contain water, and they would be adversely affected by being nuked. If anyone knows different, please inform. Rob wanted to know if he should reboil his wort. DON'T!! You will boil off all of your alcohol before the beer comes to a boil. I would suggest taking a bottle of beer, pouring it into a larger wine bottle (sterilized in a microwave!), adding either a calculated amount of calcium carbonate or a pinch, whichever you like ( or dissolve the pinch in some boiling water and add that), attatch a fermentation lock and see where that gets you. You shouldn't have to repitch because there are still tons of yeast in the beer. If that doesn't work, check the pH (to see if you did bring it up) and if it's up , then try some new yeast. Experiment with a small amount before trying the whole batch. BUT DON'T BOIL YOUR BEER. Better to serve a sweet beer to your friends at a swill party than throw away a whole batch. My $.03 worth ( Canadian exchange) Victor Daveikis Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 8:50:44 MST From: npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM Subject: Bitter Beer / 800 #s / APAs Doug asks how the following could over bitter his beer: >6.5# M&F light syrup >1.5# Pale Malt >0.5# Carapils >0.5# ??? >0.5# ??? > >Hops in 3 additions: >1 oz. Lublin at boil + 15 > >0.75 oz. Hallertau at boil + 52 >0.75 oz. Tettnanger at boil + 52 > >0.75 oz. Hallertau at boil + 57 >0.75 oz. Tettnanger at boil + 57 You say SUDSW tells you there are only 6.5 IBU. First I should say that the human taste threshold is somewhere around 12 IBU, so I wouldn't bother brewing anything with less than that. Secondly, you didn't give a lot of information, like the AA% of the hops you used, but I took some guesses. Using the lowest values I've ever seen, I get about 15 IBU from the hops you used. Now, 15 IBU is still a very low bitterness beer, so that doesn't explain things. You don't say how you chilled and how long it took, which is a major factor in accurate IBU estimates. If it takes 30 minutes or more to chill the beer, this will certainly affect the utilization, and throw off the estimates. I guess the bottom line is that I don't know how your beer got too bitter either, without more information. It is possible that another flavor is being perceived as bitterness. For example, Corona appears to get more mileage out of light-struck hop compounds than they do from the hops themselves! ** Jim Lindberg presents a nice list of 800 numbers for brew catalogs and says: >I will put this out twice a month as I do on usenet. Jim, I personally don't think you need to post this twice a month to the HBD. We don't post FAQs here on a regular basis because everyone knows they can get them from the archives. This is FAQ-like but it probably changes regularly, so I wouldn't suggest archiving it. How about a pointer once in a while to usenet, where it *is* posted regularly? ** Regarding this from Spencer's Beer Page: >a. American Pale Ale > Pale to deep amber/red/copper. Low to medium maltiness. High hop > bitterness. Medium hop flavor and aroma. Use of american hops such as > Cascade, Willamette, Centennial, etc. Fruity/estery. Low diacetyl OK. > Medium body. > OG 1.044-56, 4.5-5.5%, 20-40IBU, 4-11SRM. > Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, Anchor Liberty Ale, Geary's Pale Ale. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is a nit, but the information I've been given is that Anchor Liberty is OG 1.061 and 45 IBU, so doesn't fall into the range given here. Some call it an IPA, which may fit, but would that be an AIPA (American India Pale Ale)??? Come to think of it, SNPA is supposed to be about 30 IBU if memory serves. If Liberty is 45 IBU, that's surprising, because there wasn't a drastic difference in the bitterness of the two. The Liberty was more bitter, but 50% more? Makes me wonder if IBU *taste perception* is non-linear. *That* would be tough to quantify, eh? ("Yes, its more bitter." "How much more?" "Oh, just a smidge." "Would you say a smidge is closer to 5% or 25%????") ** And I too would like to welcome Micah Millspaw back to the digest. Any good stories to tell, Micah? Cheers, Norm (in Colorado) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 11:29:34 EST From: MCKEOWND at QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA Subject: homebrew cider I recently made a batch of cider from a "sparking cider" kit. The kit cost over $20 and made 15 litres of brew. I have been contmeplating making cider directly from actual apple cider as it would cost a bit less and would probably have a lot more flavour. I was going to use 15 litres of cider, one and a half cups of corn sugar and one package of wine brewer's yeast (this sort of copies the recipe of the kit). Does anyone have any experience with cider who can foresee the results of my recipe? Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 12:16:12 MST From: Rick Myers <rcm at col.hp.com> Subject: Re: Brewpub Location Full-Name: Rick Myers > Mark Castleman's 1s 6d worth on brewpub locations included a > warning to avoid Colorado (a rather emphatic one even). I would > modify this to say that the Front Range has reached about capacity, > but there's more to the state than just here. I STRONGLY disagree with the statement that the Front Range has reached capacity. Northern Colorado Front Range is probably saturated, but Southern Colorado Front Rangehas a long way to go. There are only TWO brewpubs in Colorado Springs, and NONE in Pueblo (yet!). The only two pubs in the Springs are right across the street from each other, so there is LOTS of opportunity for a brewpub in any other area of town, especially the north end (hint, hint). > As a matter of fact, some fellow brewers & I have discussed this > and feel that Gunnison, CO (in the Southwest) would be a fine > location. It is a beatiful location, near some amazing skiing, Pueblo would probably be a much better place than Gunnison, simply because it is a much larger city, and the market is ready! You folks in Northern Colorado always seem to think that what is happening up there is also happening down here. Sorry, but we've got a LOT of catching up to do before we even begin to reach "saturation". Look at LoDo Denver - there are something like 6 or 8 pubs in a 1 mile diameter. Now, that's saturation. Here in C. Springs, we're still starving for brewpubs! - -- Rick Myers rcm at col.hp.com http://hpctdfc.col.hp.com/rcm/rcm.html Information Technology Specialist Hewlett-Packard Test & Measurement Organization Information Technology Colorado Springs, CO Return to table of contents
Date: 17 Nov 1994 14:59:31 U From: "Manning Martin MP" <manning_martin_mp at mcst.ae.ge.com> Subject: Band-Aid Yeast Transport Domenick Venezia privately e-mailed me with a concern that Band-Aids might be treated with some anti-microbial agent, making my idea for "ouchless" collecting and transporting of dried yeast samples (posted in a previous HBD) a dud. I had thought of this, and examined the packaging carefully before use. There was no indication of such treatment, only the words "sterile unless opened". To make sure, Domenick checked with Johnson & Johnson, who stated unequivocally that there are no such agents applied to their products. Thanks go to Domenick for checking this out. MPM Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 11:57 EST From: "Craig A. Janson" <0003522158 at mcimail.com> Subject: Sanitation Question I recently produce a batch of Cream Ale vinegar (my first infection...I wept <sniff>). In panic over getting another infection the following was done:. - Emptied the heady vinegar. - Power rinsed every bottle with the carboy washer. - Leaving the residual water in the bottom, I added about a teaspoon of bleach to each. - For my next bottling just the other day I thoroughly rinsed the bottles and sanitized just about the whole kitchen with B-Brite and bottled. The bleach had been in there for about 10 days. Here's my theory, the bleach in the bottle would eliminate any nasties that could have survived the rinsing I gave the bottles or any build up of same (fuzzy colorful mess refered to recently by Rich Larsen) and the fumes from the bleach would maintain a clean environment within. This is purely my fantasy and I have no fact or documentation to back it up. Here's my question. Is this a good practice? Would there be any side effects to the interior and added beer because of the bottle's exposure to such a concentration of bleach? I ask this to those out there who know the chemistry side of HB and those products used. Thanks, Craig Return to table of contents
Date: 17 Nov 94 19:44:00 GMT From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583) Subject: Body/800 numbers/sterility and microwaves/corianderrors Borrowing Craig's restatement of Chris's question: >The following reply was sent mailed to Chris_Cesar in response to a post >in Homebrew Digest openly wondering how it is that his beers come in >just under 5% and yet are full in body, while Bud comes in around the >same and is lacking in substance. I think that there are three reasons that the mega-brews have little body or flavor: 1. lots of adjuncts -- corn and rice add virtually no protein or dextrins (which are the two things that give beer body -- mostly protein, though) or flavour, 2. they intentionally mash in such a way that extracts lots of fermentables and little dextrins (i.e. low-ish saccharification temperature) 3. they filter virtually all the remaining proteins and dextrins out of the beer -- could you imagine the head on the average homebrew if it had the typical mega-brew carbonation level? Foam city! I faintly recall a question about all-malt beers that are also insipid, for example, Miller Reserve Amber Ale and Velvet Stout. These beers may be all malt, but I would not be surprised if the brewer added additional enzymes to break down the dextrins and I truly believe they lose most of their mouthfeel during filtering. ON a related note, after the Spirit of Belgium Conference last weekend, my wife and I went to Capitol City brewpub in D.C. Now I know that these beers are not the finest that the DC/VA/MD area has to offer, but the pub was close to the touristy stuff we wanted to do. Anyway, the beers did have a reasonable amount of flavour, but were lacking in body and had absolutely no head. We did not have time to stay and ask questions, but judging from the brilliant clarity, I'm confident that filtering was the culprit. There is some control in the amount of filtering that you do. Perhaps Ed Bronson could give us a few tidbits of info that he has learned? Incidentally, Old Dominion had a bar at Dulles Airport (hurray!) so I finally did get to try them and these beers were far, far better than the Capitol City brews. Jim-- do you know what kind of filtering they do? What about you Micah? Do you filter? **************** Regarding 800 numbers for Homebrewing Supplies -- I think that twice per month is probably too often, but that's just my opinion. **************** Rich writes: >But do you think the combination of the microwaves and the steam is a >decent substitute for an autoclave? I.E. are things actually sterile >after treatment? They are most likely not sterile if there were spores on/in whatever you were trying to sterilize. However, for making a regular starter that will be instantly pitched and then used that week, it's probably good enough. For making starters that you want to keep 6 months or for making plate- pouring media for yeast selection or long-term storage, I'd get a pressure cooker. *************** >"I believe adding a few coriander seeds to the mash helps reduce the effects >of hot side aeration. I also believe using coriander in the boil helps slow >the process of oxidation in the finished beer." Yeah, yeah... let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Yes, the first is complete rubbish and the second is highly questionable (any ascorbic acid in coriander? Aw, forget it...). I try my best, but sometimes stuff slips through. Al. korz at iepubj.att.com Palos Hills, IL Return to table of contents
Date: 17 Nov 94 17:42:00 MST From: "Robert Waddell" <V024971 at Tape.StorTek.Com> Subject: file location request Hi Homebrewers: I am looking for an archive site that would have "Sudscm". It is the "Cats Meow" formatted for import into the "Sudsw" formulater for windows that is available at "Sierra.Stanford.Edu". It is mentioned by the author (Michael C. Taylor) in the help file in "Sudsw", so I know it must exist somewhere. If anyone knows of a site or has a copy they could E-mail to me I would be forever grateful. Either post a reply here or E-mail. Thanks and brew on, Robert v024971 at tape.stortek.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 22:49:50 -0500 (EST) From: Craig Mcpherson <craigm at helios.cae.ca> Subject: Beer-of-the-Month Clubs Beer of the month clubs offering an ever-changing selection of domestic micro and imported brews seem to be gaining in popularity throughout the US. My question, however, is does anyone know if a similar club or clubs exist in Canada? Alternately, does anyone know if any of the US clubs can or do extend their service to Canadian customers? I suspect that the answer might be negative to both questions, what with bogus inter-provincial commerce laws that exist here north of the border and how the provinces here have a penchant for controlling the sale of such substances through provincially controlled liquor stores. And this doesn't even begin to take into account all the customs crap that exists between Canada and the US, free-trade agreement not withstanding. Still, I could have sworn someone at work once told me about a friend here who was in a similar wine-of-the-month club and that it was operated out of the states. Hmmmm..... most curious. Can anyone enlighten? (PS. I live in Quebec) craigm at helios.cae.ca Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1582, 11/18/94