FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Canoe Paddles/Mail Order Supplies ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  Guinness sourness/sour first batch/IBUs/more IBUs (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Maltodextrin / Chicago Brewpubs (AGNORCB)
  San Diego (Chuck E. Mryglot)
  JudgeNet Digest call for participation (Brew Free Or Die  14-Feb-1995 1550)
  Guiness ("SET MAIL_DIRECTORY [.MAIL]")
  Making your own special malts (Mark E. Thompson)
  Mason Jars/Guiness (usfmchql)
  Sour taste in Guinness... (m.bryson2)
  Fix Mash Schedule/St Pauli Girl Recipes? (Kirk R Fleming)
  Re: lots of stuff (fromJim Busch) and my Guinness post. (Tel +44 784 443167)
  FW: thanks for info ("LOWE, Stuart")
  Chicago Illinois ("Paul Stokely")
  Congrats! (The Green Hornet)
  Dry Hopping, Infected Starter Wort (Arthur McGregor 614-0205)
  steam/Gott/false bottoms (Steve Robinson)
  Fish Bladders vs Kelp vs. GAF (rprice)
  Awarding a 50 (Jim Busch)
  Isinglass v Gelatine ("D.W. Blackie - Television and Imaging DJ - ext 5316")
  Aging a Tripel (Diane S. Put)
  Smokey/Trad. Porter (Michael Collins)
  Klages and protein rest (Mark E. Thompson)
  Re: Power Sparge (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: Dropping Beer (John DeCarlo              )
  Yes, Fuller's is in London (Domenick Venezia)
  IBU levels in beer (Richard B. Webb)
  Questions & Ideas (SMTPM)
  Oxidized Pressure Barrel / "New" sugar found (Rich Larsen)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 13:15:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: Canoe Paddles/Mail Order Supplies


Re: HBD #1657

>From: mgodar at autodesk.com (Mark Godar)
>...row the wort

I don't know what coatings are used on canoe paddles--there are also
so many varieties.  But I do know that Oasis Brewing in Boulder CO
uses a plastic canoe paddle to stir up their mashes.  They do this
in front of the viewing public, which I personally wouldn't do, but
their brewer obviously believes the plastic is okay at those temps.

>From: Mike Thiessen <oep108 at freenet.mb.ca>
>Subject: Catalogs

I don't have a list, but you can add Precision Brewing Systems
at (719) 667-4459 to any list you might get.  PBS sells what appear
to be extremely well-made advanced brewing systems, but I've not
dealt with them nor have I used or seen their gear.  They will send
you a small catalog, which indicates they have a page in the Web.
The catalog says to go to virtumall.com and look for East Coast
Brewing Supply.

>From: Robert Bloodworth <debaydr9 at ibmmail.com>
>Subject: Homebrew System

Bob--see the para above.  PBS sells such a system and the price
seems to be in the ballpark--from their catalog, for three tank
stainless gravity fed systems (these are made from ss stock pots
and not kegs), I get the following prices:

10 gal system     1095
15...             1275
20...             1880
25...             2725

You can convert to litres at your convenience.

>From: Jim Ancona <Jim_Ancona.DBS at dbsnotes.dbsoftware.com>
>Subject: Selecting Strains for Culturing

>[On the subject of mixed-strain starters] George Fix talks about
>this in [PBS]

Thanks, Jim.  That explains why I had seen reference to it somewhere.
I have the book but didn't think to look in it for this info--just
didn't occur to me!

Kirk R Fleming
 -flemingkr at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil
 -BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.

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Date: 14 Feb 95 14:55:00 -0600
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Guinness sourness/sour first batch/IBUs/more IBUs

Brian writes (quoting Keith):
>> I vaguely remember reading somewhere that this sour taste is 
>> achieved, not in the brewing process, but by actually blending the 
>> stout beer with a little bit of "bad" / contaminated beer.
>> 
>        I think that you were probably reading about the origins of
>Porter.

No, Keith is right.  Guinness does set aside a certain portion of beer
(3% if memory serves) and intentionally sours it.  This soured beer is
pasteurized and then blended back into the main beer.  It is true,
however, that dark grains have acidity and are part of the sourness.
This dark grain acidity is also why dark beers can be successfully made
with high-carbonate water, such as that in Dublin.

***
Which leads-in to Kevin's question:
>I'm brewing my first batch of beer (I'm a beginner) and the sample I took 
>from the fermenter today tastes very sour.

If you put a lot of dark grains or dark extracts in there, then perhaps it's
okay.  If it's a pale or amber beer, then it sounds like you have a bacterial
infection.  If it's the latter, then read about sanitation in one of the
"better" brewing texts (Papazian, Miller...) and re-evaluate your techniques.
The reason I say "better" is because there are some really bad books out
there which give all kinds of bad advice.

***
Dan writes:
>I took a Belgian Ale that I had made (11P, 27 calculated IBU or cIBU) and
>measured the alpha (and beta) acids.  I don't know who's formula I use, I
>simply calculate the percent of alpha expected and then apply a linear
>utilization of 30% for full 60 min boils and 15% for 30 min etc...
<snip>
>I measured 25.4 IBU

What you used is very close to Rager's formulas.

***
Dave writes:
>There are lots of factors that affect utilization other than those
>included in the common utilization equations.  Garetz's book does a good
>job of outlining these.

Outlining is a good word, however he does more than that in his book.  He
gives formulas (which I happen to know were *NOT* based upon experimentation)
to be used in estimating their contributions and presents them as if they
were law.  Do you agree with Garetz's claim that there is no bitterness for
boiling times of 15 minutes or less?  Are you aware of the fact that for more
than a year Garetz was arguing in HBD "there is NO effect from boil gravity
on utilization" but then when Glenn Tinseth showed a huge difference with
his preliminary experiments, Garetz silently slipped out of the discussion.
Lo and behold, a few months later, his book claims that there IS an effect
from boil gravity and HERE are the formulas! Gosh, they look just like Ragers!

>That said, I found it dismaying that Algis finds the process of
>calibrating one's pallete with known IBU levels to be "worthless".

I never said that calibrating one's palate was "worthless" but rather
that trying to estimate the bitterness of a sweet stout with doctored
Budweiser was.  Tasting hundreds of beers and noting their bitterness
as relating to their body, maltiness and sweetness, while taking into
account their mineral content IS a valid way to calibrate one's palate
to the tested IBUs as listed in books such as Fred Eckhardt's Essentials
of Beer Style and Roger Protz's Real Ale Drinker's Almanac (3rd edition). 
If you are going to try to estimate the IBUs in your sweet stout, then
use a commercial sweet stout as your yardstick.  My primary complaint
was that Garetz ignored all the other factors that influence the perception
of bitterness and therefore presented a worthless procedure.  Had it been
explained with even a fraction of the detail that Dave or I have posted here,
it would have been worthwhile.  Remember... you paid money for Garetz's
book -- you would expect it to be accurate and complete, no?

>Guinness Extra -- for me do exactly the opposite.  I percieve Guinness
>to be more bitter, and I'm sure I get fresher Liberty here than he does
>in Chicago.  Liberty has a *huge* hop flavor and aroma profile, and that
>might be confounding his assesment of bitterness.

Are you aware that oxidized beta acids are bitter?  Given that, older beer
is often more bitter than fresh beer.  What we get in Chicago is more
representative of the Liberty that is tasted by the majority of homebrewers
which are spread throughout the US.  Besides, I think that a BJCP National
judge should be able to tell the difference between bitterness, flavour and
aroma, but you're right -- there are some that can't.  Since Dave questions
my perception, allow me to question Dave's.  Perhaps Dave is misled by the
sourness and roasted barley "bite" of Guinness and this is clouding his
perception of bitterness.

>I am aware of some work by Glen Tinseth and others using controlled
>factors and measured outputs that is to be published in the future.  I
>await the data.

What Glenn and Martin Manning are working on is the first scientific study
of the factors associated with hop utilization that is to be shared with
the homebrewing community.  I await their results also, especially since
I am one of the project's financial sponsors.

Al.

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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 15:54:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: AGNORCB at miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
Subject: Maltodextrin / Chicago Brewpubs

I have a few questions for the collective wisdom.

1.      I was planning on brewing an extract pale ale and was going to add some
        maltodextrin for additional body.  How many specific gravity points per
        ounce per gallon should I expect from the white maltodextrin powder?

2.      Is maltodextrin unfermentable to all yeasts or just most beer yeasts
        (#1056)? 

3.      I am will be in Chicago this weekend on business and would like to
        check out some of the brewpubs in the area.  Would anyone with
        information about the names and locations of Chicago brewpubs drop me a
        line?  I vaguely recall a similar request about a month ago but don't
        remember seeing the final posting of the places to go.

Thanks for all your help.

Craig Agnor

AGNORCB at miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
        

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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 16:10:00 EST
From: cem at cadre.com (Chuck E. Mryglot)
Subject: San Diego

Where should one go in San Diego to drink beer?
chuckm

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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 15:50:38 EST
From: Brew Free Or Die 14-Feb-1995 1550 <hall at buffa.enet.dec.com>
Subject: JudgeNet Digest call for participation

There's been some activity here following the AHA's announcement that they are
ending sponsorship of the Beer Judge Certification Program (BJCP), and *lots* of
activity on JudgeNet.  While JudgeNet's population will probably never reach
quorum status, it's good to have active, timely discussions in an almost
realtime format.  To that end, I encourage BJCP judges who are not subscribers
to subscribe to JudgeNet and get involved in the discussion.  I also encourage
apprentice judges, and those simply interested in the continued success of the
BJCP to subscribe.  The flow of information is vital now more than ever.

Active involvement from those who really make the BJCP what it is, i.e. its
judges, can only benefit the program overall.  There are currently less than
10% of active BJCP judges subscribed to JudgeNet - let's all try to do what we
can to increase participation.  It's possible that the BJCP will be able to
save postage costs if on-line members agree to receive information in that
format.

I encourage homebrew club newsletters to publish the subscription information
for JudgeNet, mentioning not just the immediate need for active participation,
but also the merits of continued participation.  I've seen lots of great
discussions take place on JudgeNet, and positive changes as a result of those
discussions.  Your club newsletter can get the word out that JudgeNet is
a forum where intelligent, reasonable discussions of issues concerning the
beer judging community take place.  Please encourage your editor(s) to
publish JudgeNet subscription information.

Subscription information is included below.  Tell prospective subscribers that
they need only send their subscription request to the administrative requests
address, in the format shown.  Ensure that apprentice judges (both those that
have judged and those that would eventually like to) know that they are as
welcome as BJCP-ranked judges.

I'm told that AOL users are often given the wrong subscription address.  The
only correct address is judge-request@ synchro.com.  Subscription administration
is now handled automatically.  If you send a blank or improperly formatted
message to judge-request, you will receive a reply with the following
instructions:

TO SUBSCRIBE:

Send a message to judge-request@ synchro.com containing the following line:

subscribe address first_name last_name rank

address:    your Internet address
first_name: your first name
last_name:  your last name
rank:       your judging rank

ranks:
  apprentice: any unranked or inexperienced judge
  recognized: BJCP Recognized Beer Judge
  certified:  BJCP Certified Beer Judge
  national:   BJCP National Beer Judge
  master:     BJCP Master Beer Judge
  misc:       BJCP officers, non-BJCP judges (send details to chuck at synchro.com)

For example:

subscribe chuck at synchro.com Chuck Cox master

You must provide all requested information.  For multi-word names, use
underscores (_) or dashes (-) to connect the words (i.e. Edward_James
Forsythe-Smythe). 

Chuck Cox, who sponsors the machine on which JudgeNet resides, recently posted
the Who's Who for the list.  If anyone needs a copy to see who is and isn't
subscribed, I'd be happy to send it. 

I'm looking forward to a better BJCP and JudgeNet when all the dust has settled.

 -Dan

- --
 Dan Hall   Digital Equipment Corporation   MKO1-1/A10   Merrimack, NH   03054
 hall at buffa.enet.dec.com                                        (603) 884-5879

                      "Adhere to Schweinheitsgebot
        Don't put anything in your beer that a pig wouldn't eat"  --David Geary

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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 17:30:08 -0500 (EST)
From: "SET MAIL_DIRECTORY [.MAIL]" <JONE1719 at splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu>
Subject: Guiness

I am extremely interested in making a home stout similiar to Guiness or
Murphy's Stout.  Erin Go Bragh!


KEVIN J. JONES


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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 16:23:42 PST
From: Mark E. Thompson <markt at hptal04.cup.hp.com>
Subject: Making your own special malts
Full-Name: Mark E. Thompson

I was wondering, after reading Miller and others, if anyone had
tried making their own special malts such as Munich or Crystal.
I have read about making crystal by the following method.

Soak whole malted barley 24 hours in decloronated water.  
Place on a baking sheet in the oven at 150F for 1 hour 
(i assume that you could maintain this temp in an insulated cooler 
to the same effect).  Crank up the oven
to 225F and start roasting.  Roast for one hour then rake and roast
for another hour. Miller describes the same process with the 
exception of the fact that he recomends using a screen for holding
the grain and no soaking.  I know that if you use Klages you wouldn't 
get Municher but you may get an American version.   

Any info or pointers to the processes that the manufactures use to 
make some of these malts would be appreciated.

BTW: How is biscut made? (I hear that some people only use a small
amount of it in their grist, how much).
- --
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Mark E. Thompson                  |Internet: markt at cup.hp.com        |
| Hewlett-Packard Company           |FAX: 408/447-4729                 |
| Distributed Computing Program     |Tel: 408/447-5185                 |
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 20:23:41 EST
From: usfmchql at ibmmail.com
Subject: Mason Jars/Guiness                                               

*** Resending note of 02/14/95 20:21
In HBD #1657...

 -=> Dave Sanderson asks about bottling to Mason jars...

  >Since they're designed for vacuum and not pressure I'm not sure if
  >they'd hold a seal.

Bingo! Canning depends on enough heat to both soften the sealing material on
the lid and to expand the contents of the jar. On cooling, the seal sticks to
the glass; and the contents contract, drawing a vacuum.

With beer, you'd either pasteurize the beer in the heating process; killing
the yeast (therefore, no carbonation), or the seal material would be loose on
the jar (therefore, no carbonation). May hold in the short run, but would most
likely be blown off. Also, mason jars are designed much like carboys - they
are stronger under vacuum than pressure. If you got one to seal, (ie. by
leaving a ring on tight) it would likely blow up. (I've canned enough tomatoes
to know! <G>)

 -=> Brian Gowland responds on the Guinness additive question...

In defense of Keith Royster, I also recall reading something about the
addition of 'double strength Guinness' to the new beer. I have exhausted my
resources without finding this specific reference. Don't remember where I saw
it.

Papazian refers to it as 'pasteurized soured beer' in TCJOHB ('course it
wouldn't surprise me if he's wrong...).

Agreed that the bitter flavor of roasted barley is prominent in this brew...

Anyway, just my $.02 (Shouldn't we be throwing in more than $.02? I mean with
inflation and all???)

Live and let brew...
Patrick G. Babcock
USFMCHQL at IBMMAIL
(313)33-73657 (V)
(313)59-42328 (F)


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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 04:04:00 UTC
From: m.bryson2 at genie.geis.com
Subject: Sour taste in Guinness...

   To Brian Gowland( and Keith Royster).... correct me if I'm wrong-
and I know that someone will if I am- but I believe that the sour
taste in Guinness Stout that Keith refers to is caused by the addition
of a small percent( 2%-3%) of pasteurized soured wort/beer to the main
batch. Anyone that knows differently/more specifically feel free to
tell otherwise.
   Good brewing,
        Duke Nukem

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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 22:01:00 -0700
From: flemingk at usa.net (Kirk R Fleming)
Subject: Fix Mash Schedule/St Pauli Girl Recipes?

 - I understand George Fix explained his 40/50/60 (or whatever)
mash schedule in a HBD article quite some time ago.  If anyone
knows the issue (even approximately) please let me know, I'd
like to get it from the archive.  Thanks.

 - Deep in the darkest recesses of lurkerdom a fellow brewer wants
to know if a recipe exists which can be coaxed into producing
a St Pauli Girl clone.  I myself want to know what style this
commercial brew is considered (Pilsener, Munich Lager, whatever).
Any help is appreciated.
Kirk R Fleming
 -flemingkr at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil
 -BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.


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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 10:44:34 +0000
From: Brian Gowland <B.Gowland at rhbnc.ac.uk> (Tel +44 784 443167)
Subject: Re: lots of stuff (fromJim Busch) and my Guinness post.

In HBD 1658, Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote:
> 
> Domenick says:
> 
> <If anyone knows whether these carbonate values are valid or knows the 
> <actual values for the likes of Fuller's, Bass, or other Burton style 
> <ales, please respond by private email.
> 
> Fullers is located in Chiswick, London, not in the Burton area.

        Yes, but they do "Burtonise" their water before use according to
Gill the (very nice) tour guide who showed me and a bunch of drunkards
around the brewery last August. The term Burtonising, of course, now
simply means "treating the water in some way" and does not necessarily
mean that they attempt to create a water chemistry similar to that of
Burton-on-Trent.

        On the subject of my posting about the sourness in Guinness - a
couple of people have pointed out that there is a version of Guinness
that uses a percentage of soured, pasteurised beer in it. My comments
were based on the Guinness that I am used to (brewed in England) which,
unless I am hugely mistaken, doesn't appear to have the sour taste that
has been described. The bitter, dry aftertaste that I have experienced
is, to my knowledge, exclusively as a result of Roast Barley which I
use extensively myself to achieve the same effect - unless, of course,
someone knows different.

Cheers,
        Brian


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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 12:24:00 GMT
From: "LOWE, Stuart" <lowes at lishirl2.li.co.uk>
Subject: FW: thanks for info




 ----------
From: LOWE, Stuart
To: homebrew articles
Subject: thanks for info
Date: Wednesday, February 15, 1995 10:48AM

Wow, Wow, Wow,
I am staggered, impressed and very grateful for the vast and rapid response 
to my request for info regarding Beer in Seattle.
Because of the vast amount of e-mail I have received on the subject It will 
take me some time to read and understand all of it ( I am not 
complaining)but I will not have enough time to reply and thank you all 
individually before I travel.
There are obviously some key places to visit in the immediate Seattle area, 
I will do my best to get to the best of them. It's a hard job but someones 
got to do it :-))
Unfortunately I will not have the time to travel out to places such as 
Portland, Olympia or Tacoma. I will try to get to Pulsbo as I liked the 
place when last there.  Too much Beer, too little time!!!!
>From the number and enthusiam of the responses I can see that there is a 
great deal of interest in NW beer.
I appologise for consuming public bandwidth, as I appreciate that there will 
be some ( many) people who are not interested in this subject ( Strange 
folks indeed) But as so many people travel around the world I hope this note 
will illustrate the response and support that can be obtained from the HBD.
Many  thanks
Stu

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Date:          Wed, 15 Feb 1995 08:19:04 EDT
From: "Paul Stokely" <PSTOKELY at ea.umd.edu>
Subject:       Chicago Illinois


Well, I never thought I'd send one of these posts, but here it is:

Can anyone recommend a good brew pub or micro-serving tavern in 
Chicago?  Fortune has smiled enough upon me to send me there in mid-
winter to for two nights near the University. Algis? Anyone?

Thanks in advance,
Paul S. in College Park, Maryland

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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 08:24:15 -0500
From: ambroser at apollo.dml.georgetown.edu (The Green Hornet)
Subject: Congrats!

Congratulations Bill Szymczak on your second place finish in the Strong Ales
category! As I spoke to you at the meeting last month, I lost your e-mail
address, could you please send it?

Bob Ambrose

Now back to the regular scheduled program.......

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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 08:47:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Arthur McGregor 614-0205 <mcgregap at acq.osd.mil>
Subject: Dry Hopping, Infected Starter Wort

Hi All,

   I have a few questions for the collective wisdom of the HBD.  I dry hop a
lot of my beers with 1/2 - 1 oz of pellet hops, using nylon hop bags.  I
recall reading that dry hopping will not add bitterness or head retention,
only aroma.  The thing is, all of my dry hopped batches have bigger head and
better head retention, not to mention the expected great hop aroma :).  Why is
this better head and retention occurring, not that I'm going to stop or
anything like that.

   The other item is starter worts.  I have often bottled some of my wort
prior to pitching yeast in the current batch, and refrigerated it in 12-22
bottles for later use as starter wort for my next batch of beer.  I cap the
bottles of unfermented, yeast free wort with previously sanitized bottles and
caps.  I have never had a problem with infected starter wort.  Recently, I
have tried to cook up small quantities of starter wort specifically for
bottling for future use, or keeping my yeast alive, but they've all become
infected before use.

   I use 4 oz of light DME in 1 qt of water ( SG~1.040, but no hops though)
and boil for 5-7 min, cool the pot in cold bath, then bottle with previously
sanitized bottles and caps with previously sanitized caps.  These starters
are stored unrefrigerated in my basement, and within a week or two there
is all kinds of critters growing in them.  Some of these unwanted visitors
coat the top layer of the starter wort with a 1/8 inch thick matt, and other
times there are fluffy looking balls (1/2 inch dia.) floating around the
bottom.  All the bottled starter wort has some other junk sitting at the
bottom of the bottles, I'm guessing it is a combination of hot/cold break,
as well as more living creatures, as they tend to get larger over time.

   My concerns are that I use bottles and caps sanitized by the same method
for bottling beer, and I can't seem to make any safe starter wort.  I sanitize
bottles with beach or iodophor, and bottle caps by steeping in boiling water
for 5 min.  Is a small addition of hops to the starter batch necessary (and
now 30 min boils), and/or refrigeration needed, or should I cook up the
starter just prior to use?  Any other suggestion would be appreciated.  I
think this will be of general interest, so please post replies.  TIA!

Have a good homebrew :)
Art McGregor (mcgregap at acq.osd.mil) Lorton, Virginia
"He's a good source of information, but seems to have little or no significant
influence or authority"



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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 09:18:46 EST
From: Steve Robinson <Steve.Robinson at analog.com>
Subject: steam/Gott/false bottoms


Several posters lately have queried the use of steam injection in the Gott
cooler fitted with a false (or phalse) bottom.  I don't do this (I use an
EasyMasher<tm> in my Gott), so take this with a grain of salt.

My concern with such a setup would be uneven heat distribution, such as that
experienced when trying to direct-fire a mash kettle fitted with a false
bottom.  The liquid under the false bottom is difficult to recirculate, so its
temperature is going to differ from that of the main mash.  If the steam is
injected under the false bottom, this liquid will be too hot.  If the steam
injection occurs above the false bottom, the trapped liquid will be too cold.
This strikes me as being the preferred option, as it will result in a loss
of efficiency rather than denaturing enzymes.

One possibility would be to use a pump to continuously recirculate the wort
during steam injection.  Draw the sort out through the outlet pipe under the
false bottom, and pump it back to the top of the main mash.  The temperature
could be monitored in the recirculation line, using a Temp-Tee or similar
contraption.  As long as the recirculation rate is sufficient to maintain even
heat distribution in the main mash, the temperature increases become hands
off processes (open the steam injection valve, start the pump, and wait until
the desired temperature is reached).  Of course, you want to be careful to
minimize HSA in the recirculation process.

OTOH, such a system would take you most of the way towards RIMS.  All you need
to do is move the heat injection point, and connect a PC running the
appropriate fuzzy logic software :-).

Steve (on the banks of the mighty Merrimack) Robinson
steve.robinson at analog.com

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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 09:57:46 -0500
From: rprice at cbmse.nrl.navy.mil
Subject:  Fish Bladders vs Kelp vs. GAF

Dominik Venezia wrote to enquire about the
extensive prep for isinglass and proposed the
use of gelatin.
I propose that you dump the idea of recycled
animal products (make Peta happy!), and use
sodium alginate or PVP as a fining agent, first
you will find they are not as heat sensitive as the
isinglass and can be sterilized in a microwave in
the kitchen.

Plus if you get really despirate for new things to
do with your Ale you can up the concentration
of alginate to about 2-3% by wt and if you add a
bit of gypsum (calcium sulfate) you can get it to
gel,  just think Beer Jello !  



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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 10:17:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Awarding a 50

Spencer writes:

<I have to admit that I've *never* scored a beer that high in
<competition, nor have I ever been with a judge who gave a score that
<high.  Heck, I've only met one or two commercial beers that I felt
<deserved a score as high as 47.

At the risk of hitting a topic better addressed on JudgeNet, I cant
resist commenting on this.  

I have in one instance judged a beer a 47/50, it was a pale beer 
made with hot peppers, a style I dont really like, but the beer was
incredible.  I dont know why I didnt give it a 50, if I had run across
this beer in my travels, it would have been 5.0/5.0, which is the 
scale I personnally use. 

Now, I ask, why is this, skilled judges refuse to award a fantastic
beer a perfect score?  Are there no perfect beers in the world, even
if one only likes it on a given day or mood? 

Ive been scoring beers since around '90.  My database contains 940 
records, of which 22 received perfect scores of 5.0/5.0.  This is 
about 2.3% of the total beers scored.  I try to be picky about what
constitutes a 5.0, and I think 2% is about right.  Ill include a 
few that made the cut:

Vogelbrau Pils, Rochefort 10, Brugge Tarwebier, Anchor Steam, Ayinger
Fortunator Doppel (wood), Kneitinger Dunkel-Export (wood), Paulaner
Brauhaus HefeWeizen, Sierra Nevada Draught Ale, Celebration '88. 

I feel that we should not be afraid of awarding a perfect score, even
if what we consider "perfect" changes over time.  There are some 
perfect beers and homebrewers are making them too.

Jim Busch
busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov

"DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!"

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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 15:22:39 +0000 (GMT)
From: "D.W. Blackie - Television and Imaging DJ - ext 5316"
Subject: Isinglass v Gelatine

I am a Homebrewer in Scotland and have been making all grain brews for 
about 10 years.
DOMENICK VENEZIA asks why not use gelatine instead of isinglass?
Well I've always used gelatine with no problems at all, it's easy to use 
 - just dissolve in warm water and add to the brew at casking. The only 
brews which won't clear usually show some sign of infection, fortunately 
very rarely.
There may be some sound reason for using isinglass which I am unaware of 
but gelatine works for me.
I only discovered Homebrew Digest a few weeks ago but I am astounded by 
the the Products available to American Homebrewer and by how very 
seriously you approach your brewing.

cheers

Derek Blackie

dwblacki at dux.dundee.ac.uk
 

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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 08:13:46 PST
From: diput at eis.calstate.edu (Diane S. Put)
Subject: Aging a Tripel

>From "Don" Put:

Jim Busch writes about me and my tripel:

>Don writes about his tripple:

>>I plan on conditioning it for a couple months at 50F (my cellar temp right 
>>(now), then pitching fresh yeast at bottling time.  

>Why such a long conditioning period prior to bottle conditioning? I
>can see a few weeks, then bottle conditioning, but months seem like 
>overkill.

According to Jackson, Westmalle's tripel "has between one and three months'
warm maturation (10C, 50F) in tanks, is re-yeasted, primed with invert sugar, 
then bottle-conditioned at 20C (68F)."  I figured two months would be a nice
compromise.  If it's good enough for Westmalle, it's good enough for me.
Also, I prefer the rounding out of flavors I get when I bulk condition as
opposed to just bottle condition.  I suggest you try it sometime with high-
gravity beers and see if you notice a difference.  In addition to this, I 
like dropping most of the yeast out of suspension before I bottle so that the
bottles are more aesthetically pleasing to look at (read: there's not a lot
of sediment).

don
(diput at cello.gina.calstate.edu)

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 08:21:38 -0800
From: mcollins at mail.wsdot.wa.gov (Michael Collins)
Subject: Smokey/Trad. Porter

Grants Perfect Porter. with its wonderful 'smokey' flavor, has inspired me
to brew a porter.   I am wondering if anyone knows a way to achieve that
smokey flavor (without actually smoking the grains, as I don't have a
smoker).  The Brewers Companion lists "Brown Malt" as being a grain used in
traditional porter to give that type of flavor, but is not available-- is
there something that can be substituted??

As a last resort what common grain could be used Munich/ 80 - 120 L Crystal
(Caramel)??
_____________________________________________________________________________



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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 8:34:01 PST
From: Mark E. Thompson <markt at hptal04.cup.hp.com>
Subject: Klages and protein rest
Full-Name: Mark E. Thompson

In HBD #1655, Thomas Aylesworth writes:
<I am planning on doing a basic pale ale next, using mostly
<Klages and some Crystal malt.  Should I bother doing a protein rest?

I have been thinking about this question reciently, since i picked up
50# of the stuff and need to come up with a good mash program for it.
Here's an article that i found that i'll throw on to the fire i hope
the author doesn't mind me quoteing him.
"
Subject: Dr. Lewis on Mash Programs
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 94 01:21:00 -0800

                GETTING THE MOST FROM AMERICAN MALT

               Notes from a talk by Dr. Michael Lewis
                           Home Brew U
                         March 27, 1993

    The following is my attempt to put down the essence of a
talk given by Dr. Michael Lewis, U.C. Davis ("the homebrew
professor") at Liberty Malt Supply's Homebrew U on March 27,
1993, in Seattle. My notes are sketchy, but I believe this is a
fair summary of Dr. Lewis's talk.  Any errors are, of course,
mine and not Dr. Lewis's. Pat Anderson.

    In mashing malt, we need to obtain a wort with sufficient
extract and sufficient fermentability.  "Extract" means the
gravity obtained from a given quantity of malt.  "Fermentability"
means the proportion of the total extract that yeast can covert
to alcohol.
    British pale malt is produced so that a single temperature
infusion mash produces both sufficient extract and
fermentability.
    For American pale malt, optimum fermentability is obtained at
temperatures of 55^ - 60^ C. (131^ - 140^ F.). At these
temperatures, the beta amylase enzymes produce maltose most
efficiently.  This happens early in the mash in a fairly short
time, approximately 20 minutes.
    The alpha amylase enzymes, on the other hand, produce the
dextrins that give us the total extract we desire at temperatures
between 70^ - 75^ C. (158^ - 167^ F.).
    It is possible to mash American pale malt with a single
temperature infusion.  While this can be a reasonable compromise
approach, it inevitably results in a loss of either
fermentability or extract, since the temperature is not optimum
for either.
    The best plan for mashing American pale malt is a
"temperature program, " in order to obtain the optimum balance of
extract and fermentability.
    A sample two temperature program, utilizing the popular "camp
cooler" mashing method, would be something like this:
    1.  Stir in enough hot water at around 70^ C. (approximately
158^ - 160^ F.) to make a thick mash, so the temperature settles
in between 55^ - 60^ C. (131^ F. - 140^ F.) Initial mash
temperatures as low as 50^ C. (122^ F.) are acceptable.  Hold for
20 - 30 minutes at this temperature.
    2. After 20 - 30 minutes, add enough hot water just off the
boil to raise the temperature to 70^ - 75^ C. (158^ - 167^ F.)
for the remainder of the mash period.
  What many American home brewers don't realize is just how low a
temperature American pale malt needs for optimum fermentability
and how high a temperature it needs for optimum extract.
    Dextrins do not, as far experiments disclose, contribute
"body" as is frequently stated, but rather contribute a desirable
aftertaste.
    The so-called "protein rest" usually advocated for American
pale malt does not seem to have any real basis.  Everything that
needs to happen in the mash will happen with a proper temperature
program that addresses fermentability and extract.  [Dr. Lewis's
comment was actually that the protein rest was "bullshit"!]
"
Conclusion: Experiment!   I think that i'll use the two step
program mentioned here for my Klages.  Either i'll decrease my 
chill haze or i'll get a good extration.  I'm not a big clarity 
seeker but it I sure am proud of my brew when it looks crystal clear.

BTW:  Thomas, don't apologize about your post.  Just from the
replies that i have read it was a very worth while post.  
These discussions are what this group is all about, IMHO.
- --
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Mark E. Thompson                  |Internet: markt at cup.hp.com        |
| Hewlett-Packard Company           |FAX: 408/447-4729                 |
| Distributed Computing Program     |Tel: 408/447-5185                 |
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 08:52:23 PST
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: Power Sparge


Jeff Stampes asks about pressurized keg sparging.  Although I have not
done this, it would seem to me that cleaning grain and its residue
from the inside of a corny keg would be a bitch.  Other than that, it
might make the sparge go too quickly, but surely could overcome stuck
sparges.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 12:04:59 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Dropping Beer

I tried dropping my beer, but it didn't bounce, it just sat on the floor 
making a mess.  Am I supposed to drop the glass, too?  I'm afraid it will 
break and make a bigger mess.  <grin> 

I can now safely say I understand how people feel who don't understand the
terminology people like me throw around when discussing brewing.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 09:28:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Yes, Fuller's is in London

I said:

<If anyone knows whether these carbonate values are valid or knows the
<actual values for the likes of Fuller's, Bass, or other Burton style
<ales, please respond by private email. 

A few people have responded with the fact that Fuller's is in Chiswick, 
London.  Yes, of course, but according to the brewing director at Chiswick
they "Burtonize" their water in some way which is why I included it
as a Burton style ale (argueable).  Sorry for the confusion.

Domenick Venezia 
ZymoGenetics, Inc. 
Seattle, WA 
venezia at zgi.com 


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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 10:12:34 -0800
From: Richard B. Webb <rbw1271 at appenine.ca.boeing.com>
Subject: IBU levels in beer


Well, I might as well chime in on this one. After all, my name was used as
the source of some of the data being bandied about...

When I started brewing, I used the estimation method that I found in the
hops issue of Zymurgy. It is similar to (if not identical to) the method
that Dan McConnell uses: a linear utilization of 30% for full 60 min boils 
and 15% for 30 min etc, essentially # of minutes divided by 2. I modified
this slightly when necessary, such as in high gravity boils.

Then I bought Randy Mosher's book. The charts of hop utilization may not
be TRUTH, but they look a lot like it! There was the fudge factor for
high gravity worts, and the increasing utilization based on time of
boil. I clasped this chart to my bosem, and plodded on. I figured out
extremely complicated 7th order curve fits to match several of the curves,
and incorporated these equations into a spreadsheet that I use to figure
my recipies.

It was this process that was challenged by George's experiments in IBU
determination. He reported two recipes whose IBU levels had been
measured by top government scientists, on load from the FBI. His recipes
follow:

George's section ON:
Pilsner: Final volume is 6 gallons.  Original gravity 1.050
            0.75 oz Saaz (AA 3.6%) 75 minutes
            0.50 oz Saaz (AA 3.6%) 60 min.
            1.00  oz Saaz (AA 3.6%) 45 min.
            0.50 oz Saaz (AA 3.6%) 15 min.

Reported IBUs: 25.6
Rager's calculations gave me 32.75 IBU.
Garetz's calculations gave me 26.47 IBU. Garetz was close enough for a match.

California Common: Final volume is 6 gallons.  Original gravity 1.050
	.92 oz Northern Brewer (AA 8.2%) 70 minutes
	.49 oz Cascade (AA 5.7%) 25 minutes
	.46 oz Northern Brewer (AA 8.2%) 10 minutes
	.46 oz Northern Brewer (AA 8.2%) 2 minutes 
	Finishing hops were added at the end of the boil but should be of no
consequence to the IBUs.

Reported IBUs: 35.3
Rager's calculations gave me 35.8 IBU
Garetz's calculations  gave me 22.6 IBU. Rager was close enough for a match!!
George's section OFF:

I can't argue with that. The man made some beer, and sent it off to the lab.
You could argue with the numbers, but I won't. This is a data point.

I used my ever so mathmatically impressive spreadsheet to determine what 
numbers I would have come up with based on these recipies. Guess what?
They come out different!

Pilsner:    18.9 IBU total
    0.75 oz gave 6.4 IBU
    0.50 oz gave 3.9 IBU
    1.00 oz gave 6.7 IBU
    0.50 oz gave 1.9 IBU

Common:     25.0 IBU total
    0.92 oz gave 17.3 IBU
    0.49 oz gave 4.0 IBU
    0.46 oz gave 2.9 IBU
    0.46 oz gave 0.8 IBU

What does
this tell us? It tells us that we are GUESSING as to what leads to hop
utilization and bitterness. We know what makes it go up and down, but
we are clueless as to the 'real' numbers.

So how 'bout this. Find a method for determining IBUs. Stick with it.
Test it. Explore it. Change it if you feel like it, but be consistant.
If your pale ales aren't taking you to hop heaven, change your method.
If your bocks are a little too bitter, change your method. I'm not going
to say that Randy Mosher is God, but he's got a chart that can be used
as a starting point. I've got a couple of excuses for why none of these
things agree. But as a brewer, it's as much art and experience as science.
My spreadsheet is just a tool, and I use it for tuning up my recipes.

Have fun...
Rich Webb

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Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 13:00:02 CST
From: <SMTPM at VM.DCCCD.EDU>
Subject: Questions & Ideas

- --------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------








Date:        Mon, 13 Feb 95 12:58:10 CST
From:        "Davis G. Hunt" <BU01801 at MUSICB.DCCCD.EDU>
To:          <homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com>
Subject: questions & ideas


Date: February 13, 1995 From: BU01801 at MUSICB.DCCCD.EDU Subject:
Questions & Ideas

Hello Fellow Homebrewers

     If you live in the Dallas/Ft.Worth area you must try the Yeugua
Creek Brewrey.  This is a small microbrewery in Dallas that has s
selection of 5 beers that rarely change.  Ranging from Ol' Texas Stout
to an excellent pale ale.  The prices are very reasonable, and the food
is outstanding.  This place also comes out with speciality beers for
different occasions: ie for Valentines Day...a rasberry wheat beer, on
St. Patricks day...  free beer from 7 am to 8 am, then a mass, then at
7:30 pm an Irish beauty contest (redheads only ).

     Question: could one or more of the veteran home brewers please send
me a recipe for a GOOD oatmeal stout?  Your recipes are appreciated

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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 12:59:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Rich Larsen <rlarsen at free.org>
Subject: Oxidized Pressure Barrel / "New" sugar found


In HBD 1658 David Draper <David.Draper at mq.edu.au> writes:
 
> When I used a pressure barrel in the UK, I made every
>conceivable effort to keep O2 out of the barrel, by purging with the CO2
>injector while I was affixing the top and goosing it periodically as well.
>Nevertheless, in every single instance of non-rapid consumption (i.e. beer
>surviving longer than a couple weeks), once about 3/4 of the beer was
>gone, it began to taste strongly of oxidation--cardboardy, sherry-like.
 
I have two comments on this:
 
1)  What is the pressure barrel contructed of?  If it's plastic, it may be
    allowing oxygen to diffuse into the beer.
 
2)  What about the handling of the beer prior to filling the keg?  HSA
    comes to mind.
 
_________
 
Was browsing the East Indian Market the other day and came across a bag
of "Rock Sugar".  It has the color of Turbinado sugar (light brown) but
has a nice pungent, almost malty, aroma to it.  Turbinado just smells
a bit like brown sugar.  I doubt anyone has tried this in an ale or
Belgian/Trappist but I thought I'd ask anyway.
 
A nice unrefined sugar for sure.  I suspect it is less refined than
turbinado, which, BTW I have found at the same Jewel Food store as I
found the Malta.  ALSO... they have another brand of Malta as well.
(22nd and Rockwell in Chicago, before anyone asks)
 
And no... I haven't tasted either of them yet, but my next Ale brewing
I'm going to pick up some of the rock sugar and I'll let you y'all know
its characteristics.
 

=> Rich  (rlarsen at squeaky.free.org)
________________________________________________________________________
Rich Larsen, Midlothian, IL * Also on HomeBrew University (708) 705-7263
    "Spice is the variety of life." ... Me
________________________________________________________________________

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1660, 02/17/95