FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  HIGH TEMP FERMENT (Ian Bishop)
  Broken Digests, Gotts, & E-mail (Christopher P. Weirup)
  Eternal life (EKTSR)
  Saison Recipe (mark evans)
  sacharin in Dave Line's recipes (glenn_wikle)
  Sam Adams Mittlefreuh for Dry Hops ("NAME SEAN O'KEEFE, IFAS FOOD SCIENCE")
  Robots/oops/Spencer's Plastic Tubing Woes (Pat) Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
  Re: Hop Aroma (Bill Toothaker)
  Mash Tun (Bill Toothaker)
  Who's Who Update and 2nd call for input (David Draper)
  RE: That "homebrew" taste/PBS (MClarke950)
  Archives to the 'PBS of Homebrewing thread' (Pat) Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
  Carboys blowing/Retrieving archive files ("Philip Gravel")
  .z file program, Bitter orange (PatrickM50)
  Re: Sam Adams vs. Coors Cutter ("Lee C. Bussy")
  hops, glass color (HOMEBRE973)
  Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (follow-up) ("Jim Fitzgerald")
  Gelatin Blues (Christopher P. Weirup)
  re: HELP - Bottling Problems (Pat) Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
  Wheeler, lemon-grass Wits, boiling gelatine (Andy Walsh)
  Oregon IPA (gravels)
  Wheat (malt) (Matt_K)
  S/N ratio  at  65dB ("Paul Stokely")
  Drops from the HBD Mailing List ("Dave Ebert")
  Grape Nuts (daniel eugene gates)
  RE:  The carboy that almost blew (Tim_Fields_at_Relay__Tech__Vienna)
  1995 MAZER CUP (spencer)
  Archives (WillisCPC)
  Bitterness Errors (Norman Pyle)
  Re: Graham Wheeler (Phil Hitchman)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 22 Apr 95 19:34:34 EST
From: ibishop at tanus.oz.au (Ian Bishop)
Subject: HIGH TEMP FERMENT


A big hello to all on the list, as this relative novice from Australia 
makes his first tentative posting. I have gained much valuable 
information so far from my reading, but suppose I should make myself 
visible.

My Question :

I am in a location where the average maximum temperature tends to be 25 
degrees celcius (Up to about 44 in summer) or higher on a year-round 
basis. Lows can range from 0 to 30 depending on the time of year.

I am in a situation where continual temperature control is not 
economically viable. Therefore I usually end up fermenting at quite 
high temperatures and live with some of the more unusual flavors.

Would I gain any benefit from obtaining liquid yeast cultures? Are 
there any which have a particularly high heat tolerance or which enhance 
the flavors created at these temperatures?

Hope someone can help me  :-)
- --------------------------------------------------------------
>From the desk of Ian Bishop - The Mad Muso of Mount Isa, Aust.
   Please Direct All Flames to \DEV\NUL or 0:0/0 - Thanks!!

     All Real Replies to IBISHOP at TANUS.OZ.AU or 3:640/706
- -------------------------------------------------------------- 

- ---
 * RM 1.3 A1824 * "At last, the Eludium Q36 explosive space modulator...!"

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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 08:17:48 -0400
From: cerevis at panix.com (Christopher P. Weirup)
Subject: Broken Digests, Gotts, & E-mail


I don't want to waste too much bandwidth about this, but I have not
received the HBD in quite some time now.  I know others have had the same
problem, maybe they could help me.  Have I been unsubscribed?  If anyone
could enlighten me as to fixing the problem, please let me know (send it by
e-mail for obvious reasons).

In case there are still more people who want the Gott digest, please let me
know right away, because I'm moving from the Big Apple (no more panix!,
sniff) to the Windy City and will be away from e-mail more often than not.
Hopefully soon the darn thing will be somewhere that it can just be
downloaded.  Thanx!

One last thing, if Greg O'Brien is reading this, please e-mail me your
e-mail address.  The one I have keeps getting returned to me.  (Sorry to
everyone else about that).

Chris Weirup
cerevis at panix.com



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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 08:53:11 -0400
From: EKTSR at aol.com
Subject: Eternal life

In HBD #1708, Lee Bussy writes:

"... Not everyone dies you know ;)."

Lee !!  All the rest of us are DYING to know--what's the secret of eternal
life?? (;-)

Stan White
ektsr at aol.com

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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 08:07:47 -0600
From: mark evans<evanms at lcac1.loras.edu>
Subject: Saison Recipe

I'm doing a Saison this week.  I have a fairly good book recipe, but I
wouldn't mind cross-referencing that one with someone else's own
experience/recipe.  I managed to score some candi sugar when I was in
Seattle recently so authenticity is possible. (although I have never
actually tasted one of these animals before... they just sound good!!)  I
have a Wit yeast from Headstart that will be my summer workhorse for the
Belgian ales I brew this summer.  (Heard good things about the Wit's
ability to ferment high gravity brews.)  Can't wait! So private e-me your
saison experients!

Brewfully...
Mark

P.S. The ales in Seattle are phenomenal! I especially enjoyed McTarnahan's
Scottish ale (from Portland?).



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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 95 11:46:43 EDT
From: glenn_wikle at Warren.MENTORG.COM
Subject: sacharin in Dave Line's recipes

> Randy Erickson <74763.2312 at compuserve.com> writes:

> Finally, how many little packets of the "pink stuff" equals one
> sacharin tablet?  I haven't seen those things in years.  What about
> the "blue stuff"?  Dextrine powder?

I think one sacharin tablet is "equivalent" to one teaspoon of sugar.
All the other artificial sweeteners tell you how many teaspoons of
sugar they are equivalent to.

I made one of Dave Line's recipes recently that called for around 4
sacharin tablets.  The beer came out great, but I don't know what
effect the sacharin had on the flavor.  I have to put 1.5 tsp of sugar
into a cappucino to make it tolerable.  I just don't see how 4 tsp
equivalent of sweetener can make a discernible difference in 5 gallons
of beer.  Can anyone explain this?

Does anyone have a more natural alternative to artificial sweeteners
that would put 4 tsp worth of non-fermentable sweetness into your beer
without significantly effecting the flavor profile in any other way?
Do commercial breweries really use artificial sweeteners?  If beer
were required to adhere to US FDA laws for food labeling, we might
know what nasty food additives they are using.

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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 11:57:39 -0500 (EST)
From: "NAME SEAN O'KEEFE, IFAS FOOD SCIENCE" <SFO at gnv.ifas.ufl.edu>
Subject: Sam Adams Mittlefreuh for Dry Hops

Has anyone used the $12.00 Sam Adams hops to dry hop their beer?  I tried
them on 2 batches and found a wierd flavor that I describe as earthy or
dirty in the beer.  It's drinkable but hasn't decreased in intensity after
2 months at 5C (in the bottles).  Another batch I made last week with
dry hoping had the same earthy flavor but a second with hops added at 
mash out did not.  Can anybody share their experience with SA hops with
us?  Actually, this would be a great way to run an International 
experiment since we would probably get almost exactly the same hops from
BBC.  Oops, that last comment ruined my DWR.  Did I do OK?  Did I? Did I?
I hate to be forced to ask questions and have my writing worthyness
graded.  C-  OUTTA HERE YA BUM.

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Date:          Sat, 22 Apr 1995 15:56:55 +0000
From: "Patrick G. (Pat) Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject:       Robots/oops/Spencer's Plastic Tubing Woes

In HOMEBREW Digest #1712...

>From: flemingk at usa.net (Kirk R Fleming)
>Subject: HBD Subscriber Drop Robot

According to the message attached to any resubscribe request, part of 
the mailing list was accidentally lost. Is your tongue in your cheek, 
or what, Kirk???

 - ----------

>Harold LaRoux responds to my partially erroneous keg-transfer 
>post...

>You should connect to the "OUTLET" of your corny instead of the inlet. This
>will fill the keg from the bottom up to cut down on any foaming/aeration
>caused by dropping the beer from the top of the corny keg. Also (maybe more
>importantly), this will save you from getting a face full of beer when you
>try to vent from the outlet side.

Of course you're correct; and this is exactly how I normally 
proceed.  I was distracted while preparing that post and neglected to 
proofread it. My apologies to any who may have run out and tried it 
as posted; and promise to be more careful in the future. (But even as 
we 'speak', my web browser works steadily in the background...;-)

 - -----------

>Spencer Thomas comments about flavors leached from his plastic 
>tubing...

I had a similar concern, and blamed it on my tubing. That is, until 
one day when a more savvy brewer pointed out that the 'plastic' taste 
I was getting was most likely due to chlorophenols.  I narrowed the 
source down to my no-rinse bleach sanitation methods, and haven't had 
a recurrence since switching to iodophur.

This isn't to suggest that you can't leach flavors from your tubing; 
just a nother datapoint!

 - ---------

Patrick G. (Pat) Babcock * "Let a good beer be the exclamation point at the
pbabcock at oeonline.com    *  end of your day as every sentence requires 
usfmchql at ibmmail.com     *  proper punctuation." - PGB

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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 17:43:59 -0400
From: beerman at amberwaves.mv.com (Bill Toothaker)
Subject: Re: Hop Aroma

Scott Bukofsky wrote:
>  I've brewed a great number of extract batches recently, but for the life
>of me I cannot get a good hop aroma in my finished product.  I have tried
>late additions and dry-hopping, but nothing seems to work.  In my most
>recent batch, I used 3 oz of EKG late in the boil (1 oz each at 30, 15 and 5
>minutes from the end), and dry-hopped with another oz of EKG for a week.
>The result: little hop aroma!!
>  Does anyone have any ideas on the causes of this problem?  I am
>careful to avoid aeration, I fill my bottles most of the way up to reduce
>headspace, etc.  Still I am aroma-impaired.

Scott: 
The 30 min and 15 min boil are too long for aroma. Try 2 or more oz last 2-5
mins of the boil any more than that and the volatile aroma oils are driven off.
                                     -or-
For hop aroma try a "Hop Back". This can be a funnel with screen holding 2-4
oz of  whole hop cones. Syphon hot wort slowly over cones 'sparging' those
aromas out.

The problem with the above scenarios is that during even a so-so
fermentation the volatile aromas are driven off with the escaping co2 gas.
(ever notice the awesome hop aroma coming from your fermenter??) 

Solution:
1) Wait to dry hop until fermentation is complete. rack off a 3rd time to
remove dormant yeast and dry hop for another week wioth 2-3 oz. Ph of beer,
alcohol level, and flavoring hop oils should keep any infections from
occurring, & the aromas will stay in your beer.

2) Sanitize gallon mayonnaise jar.( clean extremely well or oils will reside
decreasing head retention) boil 1/2 gallon water, cooling to 130 derees or
so. add to jar add 4oz loose hop cones, cover tightly for 2-3 weeks. Ta-da;
hop aroma tea. Add to fermented beer with priming sugar. 

Brew on!!


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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 17:44:23 -0400
From: beerman at amberwaves.mv.com (Bill Toothaker)
Subject: Mash Tun

I am responding to a mash tun question where they where discussing 10 gallon
Gott coolers.

10 Gallon Gott coolers work fine. and Ive never had a grain bed be too thick
as to stop the mash run-off. Sparge slowly and you won't collpse the grain bed.

PS I use the listermann system for ease of use and cleaning. Inexpensive too.


************************************************************
*    Bill the Beerman       *     for homebrew catalog:    *
*  Amber Waves Homebrew     *   beerman at amberwaves.mv.co   *
*     & Dart Supplies       *  Trivia Question of the week *
*     5 Central Ave.        *    Name 3 beer brands that   *
*   Rochester, NH 03867     *   Have a bull on their label *
*     (603)335-4707         *      HOPPY BREWING!!         *
************************************************************


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Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 10:19:16 +1000 (EST)
From: David Draper <ddraper at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Who's Who Update and 2nd call for input

Dear Friends, last week I asked for input on the possibility of putting
together a list of some of the best and brightest HBD contributors for the
use of those newer to the digest and to brewing.  I am repeating the call
for input now for two reasons.  First, as has been mentioned in several
posts, many people (myself included) were taken off the subscription list
for some reason and so many probably missed the issue in which my first
Who's Who post appeared. Second, I have had some responses that will allow
me to sharpen the focus of the kind of input I need before deciding
whether to proceed. 

To recap: I have in mind putting together a text file that will reside on
the stanford archive and on various Brew-related web pages that would
consist of 3- to 4-line thumbnail bios of the HBD posters who are most
knowledgeable, helpful, etc.  The idea is NOT that I am some kind of judge
of this, but that this kind of info would be helpful to those new to the
digest and to brewing, as well as of interest to those who have been
around longer who are just plain interested.  So far I have a list of
about 70 HBDers that I have compiled from simply reading the
digest--nothing automated here--for the past few years.  The final file
would be too long to post here, so the archives and web sites are the only
option. 

I have had 12 respondents so far--I'd expected more, actually--and the
opinion of these folks is mixed.  7 say it's a good idea, but 3 say it is
not, that it would invite BW wastage via bickering about who should or
should not be on the list.  The other three expressed qualified support,
saying that in principle it is a good idea but that in practice it may not
be possible without some people getting offended.  One very important
point raised by these respondents is that a great deal of high-quality HBD
interaction goes on by private email rather than in public posts.  I
reckon that this is particularly true for questions from only moderately-
experienced brewers--not total newcomers, but those whose questions have
been covered from time to time in the digest. 

Now, as I said in the first post on this, I absolutely do not want to
start any kind of signal-to-noise-degrading exchange by proposing this. 
But I would like to get some more opinions before making the final
decision on whether to proceed.  Right now, despite the majority of
opinion in favor, I think the points raised about private email
contributions might be enough to disqualify the idea, although the initial
motivation was to provide info about those things that appear in the
digest publically, for all to see.  Nevertheless, I again call for more
input, *by private email only please*, on whether you think this is worth
pursuing and why. 

Thanks again for the help.  Cheers, Dave in Sydney
- --
"I can't be bought for a mere $3.50." ---Jeff Renner
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper, School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, NSW 2109
Sydney, Australia. email: david.draper at mq.edu.au fax: +61-2-850-8428
             ....I'm not from here, I just live here....


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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 22:33:25 -0400
From: MClarke950 at aol.com
Subject: RE: That "homebrew" taste/PBS

Jeff, I would try switching to glass carboys.  Your post didn't say how long
it sat in the plastic primary, but I would guess too long.  Plastic can
develope scratches that are hard to sanitize.  From what I've read about
plastic primaries, they are okay to use, but rack into a glass secondary as
soon as the fermentation slows.  Good Luck.

PatrickM50 at aol.com flames CGEDEN:
Patrick lower the flame thrower! CGEDEN was referring to the "Jack-free"
homebrewing digest that is by invitation-only.  Jay Hersh made a claim that
it was the 'PBS' of homebrewing.  Boy, people have itchy trigger fingers
here, don't they ;^)  CGEDEN was trying to find out if *THEY* had an archive,
not the HBD.   

Mike 
MClarke950 at aol.com


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Date:          Sat, 22 Apr 1995 23:37:22 +0000
From: "Patrick G. (Pat) Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject:       Archives to the 'PBS of Homebrewing thread'

>Robert Anderson comments on PatrickM50 at AOL.COM's reply to CGEDEN at  
>regarding the existence of archives to the PBS of homebrewing...

Farbeit from me to try to direct a conversation on the Digest, but 
wasn't CGEDEN at  referring to Jay Hirsch's supposed PBS (Scmidling 
Free) forum when he asked this question?  Not that the information 
being forwarded isn't valuable; but I think we jumped a track...

Patrick G. (Pat) Babcock * "Let a good beer be the exclamation point at the
pbabcock at oeonline.com    *  end of your day as every sentence requires 
usfmchql at ibmmail.com     *  proper punctuation." - PGB

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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 23:32:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Philip Gravel" <pgravel at mcs.com>
Subject: Carboys blowing/Retrieving archive files


===> Daryl Kalenchuk mentions the carboy that almost blew:

>	Two days ago I transferred a batch from my primary to secondary, a
>glass carboy.  Six hours later I returned to find that my air lock had
>blown apart and blow off was now coming out of the remaining piece. 
>	There was nothing unusual about the batch before this incident. 
>It is a very basic wheat extract (6 lbs) using Wyeast white(what ever).  A
>earlier posting in HBD mentioned bizarre behavior with this yeast, and
>it's my first time using it, is it something with the yeast or have do I
>have my first contaminated batch?

I think you had a vigorous fermentation.  That is the opposite of what
others have complained about when using Whitbread yeast.  My experience
has been satisfactory with this yeast.  You might want to think about
using a blowoff tube.

===> Robert Anderson talks about the archives and how to read them:

>That longish bit of text doesn't point that the archives are saved as .z 
>files.

If you issue the get command and leave the .Z off of the filename,
the server will automatically decompress the file before it sends 
it you.  This is explained in the README file in the archives.

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel   Lisle, Illinois               pgravel at mcs.com

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Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 01:43:04 -0400
From: PatrickM50 at aol.com
Subject: .z file program, Bitter orange

Robert Anderson laments:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
"That longish bit of text doesn't point that the archives are saved as .z
files. ...  My local server had only one utility suitable for expanding .z
files - it's a zip file called COMP430D.zip and doesn't work in windows, only
ms-dos, and has lousy documentation."
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Well, since I mistakedly (as many of you hastened to privately point out ;-)
referred CGEDEN to that "longish bit of text" in the first place, I will
attempt to redeem myself and win back some DWR points (Nice one, Kirk!) by
telling Robert and other interested HBDers that he/you can find a freeware,
Windows-friendly unzipping utility for .z files called "gzip.exe" at
"prep.ai.mit.edu" in directory /pub/gnu.  The self-extracting file to ftp is
actually called "gzip-1.2.4.msdos.exe" but it will rename itself "gzip-1.exe"
when you download it.  Follow the instructions in the "readme.dos" file to
create the file "gunzip.exe".  Then create a Windows Program Manager
"Properties" association to link .z files to gunzip. Actually easier than it
looks here, but let me know if you have problems.

On another note entirely, I've noticed several posts here re: where to find
small quantities of Bitter Orange peel for authentic Wit recipes.  I dropped
into the Beverage People homebrew shop in Santa Rosa, CA today and they just
got in 1oz. packs in the last few days for $.95/pack.  Have not tried it
myself and I have no monetary association other than as a satisfied customer.
 Call Byron at 1-800-544-1867 if you're interested.

Pat

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Date:          Sun, 23 Apr 1995 08:14:05 +0000
From: "Lee C. Bussy" <leeb at southwind.net>
Subject:       Re: Sam Adams vs. Coors Cutter

Mark Ohlstrom (mohlstr at cati.csufresno.edu) is concerned about Jim 
Koch in 1712:

I can't think of a single reason why I'd want to help Jim Koch but 
nevertheless that's just me and my opinion.

I think its rather refreshing and I'd love to see Jim try to sue 
Coors.  Maybe this will remind him that he is a MICRO brewer.  



- --
 -Lee Bussy          | The 4 Basic Foodgroups....      |
 leeb at southwind.net | Salt, Fat, Beer & Women!        |
 Wichita, Kansas    | http://www.southwind.net/~leeb  |

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Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 12:34:31 -0400
From: HOMEBRE973 at aol.com
Subject: hops, glass color

My cascade hops are growing at about a foot/day in N.C. and are already over
10 feet long and the Japanese Beetles haven't emerged yet!

"Alan R. Burdette" <aburdett at indiana.edu> writes:

> The recent talk about beer bottle glass has raised a question in my mind:
> Is there any meaningful difference between the light protection
> offered by a green vs. a brown glass bottle?

Zymurgy (Spring 1994) quoting from the New Brewer 8(2) 1991  stated that
brown glass blocked 96 % of the UV, green glass blocked 20% and clear glass
blocked 10%.
Andy Kligerman
homebre973 at aol.com
Hillsborough, NC


Andy Kligerman

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Date:          Sun, 23 Apr 1995 11:17:54 +0000
From: "Jim Fitzgerald" <jimfitz at netcom.com>
Subject:       Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (follow-up)

This is a summary of the response that I have gotten from my SNPA post that 
appeared in HBD #1702.

***

Hops: They no longer use a hop-back in the brewery for SNPA. There seems to be
a time when they did, which may explain why a lot of people have written
articles about hop-backs for SNPA in the past, but they no longer do. They
finish the boil with cascade and then use a hop extractor of some sort which
may be similar to the use of a hop-back. 

Their selection of hops seems to be a tough one, especially for their aroma
hops that they use. They only use whole cone hops and the selection is made on
the aromatic oil content and not AAU. I got a couple of responses that had
said this and I'm not really sure how a home brewer can really select hops
this way from a home brew store...but if anyone has any idea I sure would be
interested in knowing. 

I really haven't figured out if they dry hop SNPA at the brewery or not. What
I do know is that it takes a dry hop in my secondary of about 3/4 to 1 oz per
5 gallons two weeks or so before kegging to get that wonderful cascade aroma
in my pale ale. I have also had other people respond to the old post stating 
the same thing. This could be due to the fact that us home brewers can't really 
get the freshest hops available (e.g. the aromatic oil content has been aged 
out of them) and simply finishing with older hops will not do...hence the dry 
hop is needed also.

***
Yeast: Well all of the responses here say GO FOR IT! I guess only time will
tell on this one.

***

Water: Well, I really don't know the anwser to this. There have been a couple 
of posts stating that when the brewery moved they had a hard time getting 
started because the water was different. I would have to guess that any brewery 
that uses "city" water to brew with must do something to insure that the water 
content was always the same, but I'm not even sure if they use "city" water or 
not. I use well water to brew with from the Santa Cruz mountians and besides 
treating the water with a little lactic acid (C3H6O3) I don't have to do much 
else...but water from other wells very close by contain many things that noone 
would want to include in their beers (sulphur, metals, etc.)...I guess I 
concider myself lucky on this one. If anyone has any information on the water 
that SNPA uses in their beers it would be interesting to know about.

***

Malt: There seems to be a problem with the quality of specialty malts that are 
availible to the home brewer. In the case of SNPA this malt is crystal malt. It 
seems like a lot of folks mix the lighter and darker crystal to get some of the 
medium colored crystals...the caramel flavor that is present in SNPA comes from 
the use of this type of malt with the presence of crystalized sugars within the 
kernel. If these are milled and then mixed the results could be very 
unpredictable. The bottom line here is know how your supply store treats it's 
crystal malts before they are bagged and sold...it can make a big difference in 
consistency.

***

Color: Eckhardt's book lists the color here at 6 SRM, the recipe that I had
listed should come out around 8.5 SRM probably due to the darker 60L crystal
that I use to ensure a nice crystal flavor.

Well, that's it from the responses that I have for now. I would like to here
from anyone that has anything more to contribute on SNPA. I think that I would
like to try this for Sierra Nevada Pale Bock also. I've have made this
wonderful maibock for the first time this year and am currently drinking now
(it is spring time, right?). I have done a lot of homework on this one also
that I would like to share with all of you, so I'll try and get something
together in the next day or so. If anyone has any input on SNPB I would love
to here from them...if not, maybe I can spark some interest with my next post.

Cheers!
Jim




- -------------------------
Jim Fitzgerald
Los Gatos, CA
jimfitz at netcom.com

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Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 16:15:21 -0400
From: cerevis at panix.com (Christopher P. Weirup)
Subject: Gelatin Blues

There have been many recent posts about using gelatin to help with clearing
beer.  Well, I tried it on my latest batch, an IPA, and I had some problems
with it.  The beer was dry hopped with hop pellets, which is why I wanted
to clear the beer and then have the stuff sit on the bottom, held by the
gelatin.

What I did was heat about a pint of bottled water to about 120 deg F, then
dissovled a little over half of a packet of Knox gelatin to the water.
This mixture was then added it to my beer about 5 days before bottling.

While the beer seemed somewhat clear (although not as much as I had
expected), but there were many large pieces of gloop (I don't know what to
call it) floating in the beer.  While I was able to keep most of it out of
my bottles, I'm sure that there is some sitting in my bottles.

Can anyone help with what I did wrong?  Is that gloop bad for my beer?  Did
I destroy the gelatin?  While I'm trying not to worry, it's taking a lot
more beer to do so (which is not bad, I guess).  Anybody with any info.
please e-mail me, since I'm still not getting the HBD.

TIA!

Chris Weirup
cerevis at panix.com




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Date:          Sun, 23 Apr 1995 20:20:14 +0000
From: "Patrick G. (Pat) Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject:       re: HELP - Bottling Problems

In HBD #1711...

>Simon Buxton bemoans his surging bottled beer with weird flaky 
>floaters...

Well, my friend, your problems are multiple.  The fact that they are 
only ocassional, as noted in your post, is remarkable.

First, whether your kit recomends it or not, I think everyone here 
posting to or reading the HBD would agree that boiling of the wort is 
desirable to kill any nasties in the water or your ingredients. 

Secondly, cleaning your bottles with only a brush does nothing to 
kill the nasties that may be residing there. If chemical sanitizers 
offend, I would recommend (strongly) that you at least heat sanitize 
your bottles prior to bottling. 

Caps, too. Some will tell you that they don't boil their caps, but, 
for the most part, they're tempting fate.  First, most of us buy our
caps from the same source that we buy the remainder of our supplies 
 - the brew shop. In most shops, little is done to protect bulk caps 
from airborne dust and the bacteria, yeasts and mold hitchhiking along 
with them. Note most homebrew authors' warnings about milling grain 
in the same room you brew in. Most HB shops mill grain, too. 
Secondly, the boiling of the caps softens and prepares the seal 
material for use - though this probably isn't as critical as the 
first (my caps are usually quite cold by the time I get to that last 
case, but they still seal OK).

HIH!

'Drink all you want - I'll brew more!'
Patrick G. (Pat) Babcock * "Let a good beer be the exclamation point
pbabcock at oeonline.com    *  at the end of your day as every sentence 
usfmchql at ibmmail.com     *  requires proper punctuation." - PGB

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Date: Mon, 24 Apr 95 12:49:47 EDT
From: awalsh at pop03.ca.us.ibm.net (Andy Walsh)
Subject: Wheeler, lemon-grass Wits, boiling gelatine

Hello.
Whoops, another correction to a post of mine.
I stated in my Wheeler review that his Marston's Pedigree 
recipe did not contain any glucose, which was contrary to his
introduction. Well I was wrong. He calls for 800g "maltose
syrup" which I assumed was liquid malt syrup. He actually
states elsewhere that "maltose syrup" is a maize derived
sugar (ie. corn sugar, glucose, dextrose etc.). This is a 
particularly confusing and strange notation IMHO.
**************
On lemon-grass Wits.
This occurred to me a couple of years ago. The logical 
extension of this is, if you're making a beer with coriander
and lemon-grass, why not go the whole hog and make a
Thai curry beer by adding ginger (or more properly, 
Galangal root for authenticity) and chilli? I made about
5 batches of this beer ("Thai Curry Wit"), and most liked
it, but these days I stick to more normal Wits just with
coriander and orange peel. 
But using lemon-grass does work anyway. I have also 
tried other peels (citric peels like grapefruit and lemon)
but find the citric character detracts from the beer. 
*************
On boiling gelatine.
I tried to make up some cultures for yeast slants on the
w/e. As Dave Draper (and others) have recommended
gelatine as an easily available replacement for agar
in this process, I gave it a go.
The first attempt was a failure. I used 8 teaspoons of
gelatine in 1 litre wort. I boiled it (thinking there would
be no problems in "denaturing") for 15 mins, added
to the testtubes, which were then immersed in hot water
and boiled for another 20 mins. The mixture would just
not set.
Attempt #2 saw 8 teaspoons go into 500ml. This is more
than twice the amount recommended by the manufacturer
(Davis). This time I did not boil it, but added the gelatine
and heated it until it dissolved. I took it off the heat, added
to the tt's, which were placed in boiling water for 20 mins,
as before. However, this time I also made a couple of 
controls, which were not sterilised. Result? The unboiled
tubes solidified without problems at room temperature,
the sterilised ones would not solidify unless put in the
fridge. 
Conclusions? Do not boil gelatine. I am no chemist, so
maybe the proteins are already "denatured" and can not
be further degraded, but I am convinced that boiling the
stuff does something to stuff up its setting properties.
How on earth can others use gelatine for yeast slants?
or, Help Dave, what am I doing wrong? Maybe I bought
a bad pack? ;>)
In the meantime, I'm off to buy some agar.

*****************************
////     Andy Walsh from Sydney
////     awalsh at ibm.net
////     phone 61 2 369 5711
*****************************

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Date: Mon, 24 Apr 95 08:28:54 EST
From: gravels at TRISMTP.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Subject: Oregon IPA

          Hi All,

          I just recently went to a local pub that boasts of 33 brews
          on tap and tried an Oregon IPA.  I was great!  Of course I
          had to sample it again to make sure that it was still as
          good as the first time. ;^) Well, to make a long story short
          I liked it a lot.  Does anyone have a recipe they could send
          me?  I'm an extract brewer so that would be preferable but I
          will take all-grain recipes and do the experimentation until
          I get it right! :^)

          On another note I'm looking for a good brew pot and I
          haven't been able to find the right one.  I'm looking for a
          7 - 8 gal oblong stainless or ceramic coated steel pot so
          that I can do a full boil and cover two burners on my stove.
          I live in Newport Rhode Island and a regional source would
          be nice but mail order is okay.  Thanks.

          Steve Gravel             gravels at TRISMTP.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
          Etectronic Technician    Naval Undersea Warfare Center
          (401) 841-1745           Newport, Rhode Island
          "Homebrew, it's not just a hobby it's an adventure!"


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Date: Mon, 24 Apr 95 08:58:49 edt
From: Matt_K at ceo.sts-systems.ca
Subject: Wheat (malt)

Message:
As some fo you may rember, I asked a question a few weeks ago re. a 
headless Oatmeal stout.  First of all I'd like to thank everyone who 
responded to my question.  

Since then, in an offline discussion, an interesting point has come up 
and I wonder if someone could shed some light on this.  Several people 
subbested adding a pound or more of wheat to the mash to help with 
head retention.  There seems to be no consensus however whether one 
should use wheat malt or unmalted wheat.  Personally I have always 
added about .25lb of flaked wheat.  So, what is the difference on head 
retention (if any) between malted an unmalted wheat?

Many TIA

Matt,  in Montreal

Suds....  Gotta love' em!  - Kenny King -


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Date:          Mon, 24 Apr 1995 09:12:52 EDT
From: "Paul Stokely" <PSTOKELY at ea.umd.edu>
Subject:       S/N ratio  at  65dB

Dan writes in response to pH technique:
 
> Proper practice for pH paper is to leave it in the solution until the
> color stops changing.  For a weakly buffered solution (such as wort) 
> this may take a few seconds.  However, you need to take into account
> the color change caused by the color of your beer.  For darker beers 
> this can be a problem.  That's the limitation of pH papers.

FWIW, the instructions that come with the Whatman narrow range pH 
papers say to dip the paper in the liquid and shake off the excess
and wait 5 to 10 seconds. They also advise "reading" the wet paper in 
bright light against a white background.

About Sam Adams and Boston Brewing:

> Jim Koch and the BBC has been wonderful to both the microbrewing 
> and homebrewing community. We should join together and voice
> our support for the BBC.

That's almost as funny as the BeerTalk post last week. Keep up the 
humor! 

Paul S. in College Park, Maryland 

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Date:          Mon, 24 Apr 1995 06:43:57 MST-0700
From: "Dave Ebert" <DNE at Data.HSC.Colorado.edu>
Subject:       Drops from the HBD Mailing List

I for one am totally opposed to the AI Robot deciding who can stay 
subscribed to the HBD.  I have enjoyed the HBD over the past several 
months and have picked up many good ideas along the way.  I have also 
had to skip over countless arguments that were useless.  But, based 
on what I'm reading those that contribute senseless messages can 
remain on the mailing but those that are trying to learn from the 
more experienced brewers are cut off the list.  I understand the 
monumental task in keeping the maillist functional but I'm not in 
agreement with this method of weeding out. 

Sure, bounced back mail should be number one priority in removing 
from the mailer.  Abusers of the bandwidth should be another.  Why 
not put some of the AI time into auto mailing those inactive accounts 
to see if they are still interested in receiving the digest.  If you 
get no reply or the request bounces, then remove them from the list.  
The "subjective" approach of calculating the S/N is an unfair way to 
determine who is deemed "worthy" of receiving this digest.

I have posted a few messages asking questions or making minor 
comments about a few topics and I have not been dropped from the list 
(yet).  I may go the next quarter without a single post and according 
to your formula, I will be dropped.

What do others think?

Dave

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Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 08:11:13 -0600 (MDT)
From: daniel eugene gates <gatesd at unm.edu>
Subject: Grape Nuts

Quick question on using Grape Nuts for a brew.
	Will the salt in the cereal affect the brew?
I have fairly hard water and this is my one concern.  

Also, has anyone used alternative grains such as Tritical, and some of 
the old world type grains?  
Has anyone used Horehound as a bittering in beer? (I read that some 
European beers had when they didn't have the hops)

TIA, Dan Gates gatesd at unm.edu

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Date: Mon, 24 Apr 95 10:10:04 EST
From: Tim_Fields_at_Relay__Tech__Vienna at relay.com
Subject: RE:  The carboy that almost blew

        In HBD 1712, Daryl Kalenchuk notes:
>Two days ago I transferred a batch from my primary to secondary, a
>glass carboy.  Six hours later I returned to find that my air lock had
>blown apart and blow off was now coming out of the remaining piece.
>       There was nothing unusual about the batch before this incident.
>It is a very basic wheat extract (6 lbs) using Wyeast white(what ever).  A
>earlier posting in HBD mentioned bizarre behavior with this yeast, and
>it's my first time using it, is it something with the yeast or have do I
>have my first contaminated batch?  

>If anyone has an explanation please let me know.

I have used the Wyeast 3068 (Weihenstephan wheat) yeast on two occasions to 
make a weizenbier (extract recipe).  In both instances, the yeast produced 
a *VERY* active ferment (both primary and secondary) quite similar to what 
you describe.  These are the only two beers I have had to use a blowoff 
tube with, and I had to use one for both primary and secondary fermentation 
(i use a 6gal. plastic primary fermenter and 5 gal glass carboy secondary). 
 The first batch fermented at 76 deg F (well above recommended temps - 
didn't have a room thermometer yet) and the second at 68-69 deg F, which is 
within the recommended temps.  I concluded that 3068 is just a very active 
fermenter.

If you are talking about another Wyeast, my guess is it must be related to 
the 3068.  By the way, the first beer turned out great; the second is still 
in secondary.  IMHO, this is a very good yeast.


Tim Fields
 Timf at relay.com
 Relay Technology, Inc., SQL/DS Division
 Vienna, VA, USA



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Date: Mon, 24 Apr 95 10:39:51 EDT
From: spencer at med.umich.edu
Subject: 1995 MAZER CUP

The Mazer Cup announcement is also available on "the web" at
	http://guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu/Beer/AABG/Mazer_Cup.html
Or start at my beer page: http://guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu/Beer/, and
follow the link to "Beer-related Pages" / "competitions".

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI

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Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 11:15:43 -0400
From: WillisCPC at aol.com
Subject: Archives

Thanks to everyone who responed to my question regarding reading the
archives. 

Gregg Willis
WillisCPC at aol.com

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Date: Mon, 24 Apr 95 8:46:21 MDT
From: Norman Pyle <npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM>
Subject: Bitterness Errors

Ian Normington wrote, of Andy Walshes negative comments of Graham Wheeler:

>Andy said: "You will still make very bitter beer with his given
>numbers"
>
>I certainly have not found them overly bitter. In fact, having
>recently done a side by side test with his version of "Old Speckled
>Hen" and a sample of the real stuff, I think he was spot on. May be
>I've just been lucky and have used hops with lower % alpha acids.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I don't want to get into the Wheeler debate as I haven't read his books, but
I'd like to comment on Ian's last statement.  All the talk of IBU formulae,
utilization tables, etc. etc. (I get into these debates on occasion) has me
thinking of ALL the possible errors.  Off the top of my head, I can think of
the following errors in calculating hop bitterness:

1) AA% is a sample of a bale, not necessarily the small sample bag you hold
in your hand,

2) AA% changes with time, temperature, oxygen, etc.  You don't know how much
it has changed,

3) Possible error by the person writing the AA% number on the bag.  I've
actually seen one bag where one number was crossed out and another added,

4) Error in weighing the hops, as most homebrewers use some crude scale,

5) Error in weighing the hops, as moisture content is unknown.  It could
easily gain or lose moisture at various packaging/processing steps,

6) Error in boil time, especially when you consider whirlpool at knockoff,
chill times, method of chilling, etc.,

7) Errors in the formulae, i.e. how linear is bitterness taken from the hops
at different concentrations?,

8) Errors in the utilization tables,

9) Errors in utilization based on restricted flow (i.e. hop bags, poor boil,
etc.),

10) Errors in adjustment for altitude, yeast, and all the other factors
brought up by Garetz.

I'm sure there are others.  Now I suspect that numbers 1, 2, 4, and 6 are
biggies, but the others aren't inconsiderable by any means.  The point is
there is a lot to think about.  We're probably pretty lucky if we can get
within 25% of our desired bitterness.  I strive for precision, i.e.
repeatability, and then adjust for accuracy.  I think this is the best that
can be hoped for in the typical homebrewery environment.

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: Mon, 24 Apr 95 16:27:29 BST
From: phitchma at mpc-uk.com (Phil Hitchman)
Subject: Re: Graham Wheeler

Hi,

I would like to add my comments to Ian Normington's re. Andy Walsh's comments 
on Graham Wheelers books.

>       I'm posting this in support of his books. While his 'technical'
> 		information may be weak, I have found his recipes very good and have
> 		been delighted on many occasions with my brew.

I too have had excellent results using these books.

> 
> 		Andy said: "You will still make very bitter beer with his given
> 		numbers"
> 
> 		I certainly have not found them overly bitter. In fact, having...

The hop levels used in Graham's books are far lower than (for example) Dave 
Line's.  You will, of course, get much different results depending on the type
of hops you use (eg. dried, vaccuum packed, pellets etc..).  The EBU rating is
shown for all recipes and can easily be calculated useing the formulae at the
front of the book and the data on the label of the hop packet.  Hop levels in
these recipies are only meant as a guide and are a matter of personal taste
anyway.

> 		Andy said: "So what do you find when you look up his recipe for
> 		Marston's Pedigree? Yep, it's all malt."
> 
> 		Well, this is not true for my copy of "Brew Your Own Real Ale At
> 		Home". Included in the recipe is "800g Maltose syrup (18 %)" -
> 		certainly not all malt be my reckoning.

It also says in the book that the Maltose syrup can be substituted for glucose
without any noticeable change in flavour.  I can't support or dispute this as
I've never managed to get hold of any Maltose syrup and so always use Glucose.

> 
> 		Anyway, I would highly recommend "Brew Your Own Real Ale At Home" to
> 		any home-brewer wanting to replicate British real ales. Use your own
> 		methods and hopping rates if you like, but I've followed his methods
> 		and rates, and have never been disappointed with the results.

HERE HERE !!  (Try the Crouch Vale - Willy Warmer, it's excellent !)

Cheers,

Phil Hitchman.


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1714, 04/25/95