FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Nitrosamines (kit.anderson)
  Ageing and Conditioning/HBD etiquette (Domenick Venezia)
  Beer Machine, anyone? (Darren Tyson)
  Starter questions (Martin Schwan)
  Aging beer/Mashing versus steeping confusion (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  BT Siphoning (Domenick Venezia)
  Mercury/Asbestos thread!? (Domenick Venezia)
  Mini-Keg Survey Results (harry)
  San Francisco Brewpubs (Dave Albro)
  Belgian yeasts, starters, misc (Jim Busch)
  Best aging times for different types of brew??? (Kenneth K Goodrow)
  Most economical mail-order supply places??? (Kenneth K Goodrow)
  Publist file on Stanford archive (David Draper)
  Sweet Gale - Bog Myrtle - Myrica Gale ("J Dudley Leaphart")
  Re: Fast Ferment (Shaine_Bodnar)
  ice beer? (steve brown)
  southeast judges addresses? (Michael Lelivelt)
  Northern Beers of Washington State. (Jeff Wade)
  RE: Trub Removal (Cary Kiest)
  CO2 pressure - gauge readings (Ronald J. La Borde)
  RE: Labatt's Buyout (Robert_Ser)
  re: CO2 Regulator Pressure (Neil Parker)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 06 Jun 95 14:21:10 -0500
From: kit.anderson at acornbbs.com
Subject: Nitrosamines


                             

Now that the mercury thread is fizzling out, I hesitate to ask about 
this topic. BUT...when I was taking organic chemistry in college, the 
professor said that nitrosamines are produced in the malting process 
and are an unfortunate and inevitable component in beer. He said the 
same for smoked foods but also stated that he would die before giving 
up beer and jerky. (One of the best combinations since an Imperial 
stout and a Hoyo de Monterey Double Corona ;)

I searched the archives for occurances of 'nitro' and 'amine'. Nada. 
Except about smoked grains.

New thread; are there actually carcinogens called nitrosamines in 
beer? And if so, in significant concentrations?

Kit "Travels With Chiles" Anderson
Bath, Maine
<kit.anderson at acornbbs.com>
*

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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 12:30:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Ageing and Conditioning/HBD etiquette

- ------------------------------

From: John J. Palmer in HBD 1750

>The yeast do not end Phase 1 before
>beginning Phase 2, the processes occur in parallel, but the conditioning
>processes occur more slowly.  This is why beer (and wine) improves with
>age.  Tasting the beer at bottling time will show rough edges that will
>disappear after a few weeks in the bottle.  Because the conditioning
>process is a function of the yeast, ...


I agree that yeast must have a role in the conditioning of beer, but I am 
not so sure that the conditioning is simply and solely a function of 
the yeast.  The reason I say this is that I have made a number of Altbiers
(Wyeast 1338 - European Ale yeast) and have cold conditioned them for 4-6 
weeks.  I have also started to cold condition my english ales.  The changes
that occur over the conditioning period are dramatic.  The rough edges
smooth out, disparate notes come together, symphony emerges from cacophony.
At 40F an ale yeast is pretty much asleep, so I'm not convinced that in this
case the yeast is responsible for the changes.  But I also must admit that I 
have no idea what processes are responsible for this cold-conditioning.
Perhaps a relevant thread will emerge that explains it.  

On the subject of HBD etiquette as espoused by Rob Lauriston in 1748:

Although Rob and I have communicated privately (and humorously, despite
my modest intellect and hypocricy--kiss, kiss), I have some comments fit
for public exposure (I canceled my first HBD post as being too reactionary).

ARE YOU KIDDING!?  The HBD that would result from Rob's suggestions would
be polite, BORING, predigested, and would eventually collapse under its
own stultified weight of relevance.  Posting summaries is ok, but it is
often boring, and some have previously complained that too much goes on 
offline that would be valuable if posted.  I prefer my HBD (among other 
things) raw, unprocessed, and a little wild.  Rob's HBD would lack humor and 
spontaneity.  Personally I feel that there is ALWAYS room for comic 
genius, as it keeps us from taking ourselves too seriously--even myself, 
Rob.  I revel in the irreverence and at times irrelevance (to some) of 
things like the legal keg thread, the stove cleaning thread, the wall 
cleaning thread, the FOOP thread, the mercury thread, and now even this 
stupid thread. 

While I'm here and speaking of etiquette ... Pet Peeves: 

Bad line lengths (I usually skip these posts), bad spelling, excessive 
inclusions (edit your replies! Your comments should be longer than the 
inclusions), long taglines (your post should be longer than your tagline
unless it contains cool ascii graphics that I haven't seen yet).  

Brew on--

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com



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Date: Tue, 06 Jun 1995 14:32:42 -0600 (CST)
From: Darren Tyson <TYSONDR at SLUVCA.SLU.EDU>
Subject: Beer Machine, anyone?

Dear homebrewers,

IMHO, the only redeeming quality of the Beer Machine (tm) is the fact
that it got me interested in home brewing.  I have tried to use mine for 
the last time today.  

For those of you who don't know what one is, it is a small
2.5 gal brewing system for novices who only have to assemble it , add
the kit supplies through the top and seal it.  Presto!  In two weeks you 
can serve your beer right out of the fermentor.  Hah!

I originally got the BM as a present from my mother for X-mas two years ago.
I thought it was great... until I tried to use it!  The first time I used 
it it leaked slightly from the around the main seal.  The next time I got 
the main seal not to leak, but the spigot dripped!  I gave up on the thing 
and I finally got some REAL brewing equipment (a glass carboy with a cap, 
plastic hose and an airlock).

For some reason I thought it would be cool to try the BM as a minikeg for a
party.  Bad idea.  It leaked again.  I had to scramble to clean more bottles 
for the beer that was slowly dripping onto my countertop! AARGGH!

I hope I've learned my lesson!

And now back to your regularly scheduled brewing info...

May all you beer be homebrewed,

Darren Tyson       tysondr at sluvca.slu.edu

P.S.- Anyone want to buy a used Beer Machine? I'll sell it for cheap!  *8)


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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 14:39:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: Martin Schwan <schwmar at charlie.acc.iit.edu>
Subject: Starter questions

I have a few questions about wort for yeast starters.  I brew up a small
batch of hopped wort a la Charlie P. for use as starters.  I store the wort
in capped brown bottles at room temp. for lack of frig. space.  I follow 
good sanitary procedures and the wort goes into the bottles hot, so I'm
not worried about beasties.  I am wondering though, how long can I store
the wort this way?  Will the wort spoil or go stale?  Do I need to minimize
the air space in the bottles or can I fill them only half way up?  Half
full bottles are easier to use because there is built in head room for the 
mini-krausen.  (I realize I could fill them all the way up at bottling
time and dump half of it at starter time, but that seems like such a waste.)

Thanks in advance.      Martin Schwan,  Chicago, IL

Private e-mail okay.  <schwmar at charlie.acc.iit.edu>

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Date: 6 Jun 95 14:15:00 -0500
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Aging beer/Mashing versus steeping confusion

Jeff asks about the aging of beer.

John writes:
>Total fermentation is
>better defined as two phases, the Primary or Attenuative phase and a
>Secondary or Conditioning phase.  The yeast do not end Phase 1 before
>beginning Phase 2, the processes occur in parallel, but the conditioning
>processes occur more slowly.  This is why beer (and wine) improves with
>age.  Tasting the beer at bottling time will show rough edges that will
>disappear after a few weeks in the bottle.  Because the conditioning
>process is a function of the yeast, it follows that the greater yeast mass
>in the fermenter is more effective at conditioning the beer than the
>smaller amount of suspended yeast in the bottle.

Some facets of conditioning are a function of yeast and others are not.
Most wines are filtered and even so, many of the finer reds improve with
age.  Yeast certainly does do a little fermentation on some of the more
complex sugars during conditioning also, it reabsorbs diacetyl and
acetaldehyde that it produced during the main ferment.  I also know that
with age, higher alcohols go through some changes (I believe that the
yeast plays a role here -- creating esters from the higher alcohols and 
organic acids?  I'd like to know more about this if anyone has more info),
which is why Barleywines and meads are rather "rough" or "hot" at first
and then mellow with time.

I have heard from a wine person, that tannins are like whiskers.  When
they are young and short they are "bristly," but when they age, like
whiskers, they grow longer and softer.  I don't believe that yeast plays
a role in this since, as I mentioned before, this works even for filtered
wines.

I believe that part of the roughness of young beers is the higher alcohols,
part is from the tannins and part may also be from certain hop compounds.
Some hops produce harsher beer than others, although time usually softens
all hop bitterness whether you used Clusters or Saaz.

***
Tim writes:
>I've come to the 
>conclusion that some of these grains (for example crystal) do not need to 
>be mashed, while others (for example Munich) should be mashed.  I've also 
>seen phrases like "needs to be mashed together with other grains".
> 
>Well, I don't mind telling you I am confused (not worried - I'll have a 
>homebrew this afternoon). I think I'm mixing up partial mashing, full 
>mashing, and steeping of specialty grains.

It's really very simple, once you understand a few basic points.  Roasted
and unmalted grains have virtually no available enzymes.  The former because
they have been denatured by heat and the latter because they have yet to
be "activated" by malting.  Crystal (aka caramel) malts, including Carapils
(aka Dextrin malt, aka Carastan) and Special B are already mashed "in the
husk" and kilned so they are not enzymatic, but then again, they don't need
to be mashed.  Unmalted grains, since they don't have enough available
enzymes to convert themselves, need to be mashed with malts that have enzymes
"to spare" (see below).

Dark grains (chocolate, black patent, roasted barley) do have some starch
in them, but for the most part, they do not have to be mashed.  I *think*
this may be partly due to the state in which the starch is in the grain and
partly due to the fact that the beer will be dark and will cover up a little
starch haze.

All other malted grains (pilsner, pale ale, wheat malt, mild ale, rye, vienna,
munich, aromatic (a dark munich malt), biscuit, victory (biscuit and victory
are both medium-dark roasted pale ale malts) and brown) do need to be mashed.
The paler malts (from pils to munich) do have enough enzymes to convert
themselves and a some additional starch (say, from unmalted grains, roasted
malts, cornstarch, potatoes, etc.).  Aromatic can just barely convert
itself.  Biscuit and victory need additional enzymes for compleat conversion.

One other note of confusion: Klages malt.  Klages is a strain of 2-row barley
that was the most popular 2-row brewer's malting barley for a number of years.
However, as disease resistance diminishes, growers change strains.  One of
the more popular 2-row replacements is Harrington.  There are still some
growers that are planting Klages in the west, but in the midwest, it's almost
all Harrington.

Many recipes call for Pale Ale malt or Lager malt, but the store may just have
"US 2-row."  What gives?  Many US maltsters (Briess is one, Shreier another) 
don't malt a paler "pils" or "lager" malt and a slightly darker "pale ale"
malt.  Schreier simply calls theirs "Brewer's malt."  It is probably closer
to a "pils" malt than to pale, meaning that it will be paler and have a bit
more SMM, the precursor of DMS.

Regarding 2-row versus 6-row:

2-row
- -----
more expensive (less yield per acre)
less husk by weight (less tannins)
more starch by weight (higher extract)
less enzymes
less protein

6-row
- -----
less expensive (more yield per acre)
more husk by weight (more tannins)
less starch by weight (lower extract)
more enzymes (can convert more enzymeless adjuncts)
more protein (even problematic levels -- this is one reason why the industrial
              brewers use low-protein corn and rice as adjuncts -- protein
              dilutants)

The difference between mashing and steeping is really only that in mashing,
you are much more careful to keep the crushed grains at the proper temperatures
for the proper times (acid rests, glucan rests, protein rests, saccharification
rests -- although if you use well-modified malt (which is most of them) you can
get away with a single, saccharification rest (between 148 and 158F).  Steeping
is just basically what you do with a teabag -- soak the crushed grain at some
temperature between 150 and 170F for 15 to 30 minutes.  Also, when mashing,
you are usually using something between 1 and 2 quarts of water per pound
and then sparging the converted mash with more water.  In steeping, usually
ratios of 1 gallon or more per pound are used (although I recommend keeping
it at no more than 1 gallon per pound to keep the pH down, even when steeping).

Partial mashing is just a mixture of all-grain and extract brewing: some of
the fermentables come from mashing and the rest come from extract.  Steeping
specialty grains is not partial mashing (sorry, but you'll have to circle the
"malt extract only" on the AHA recipe form).

Whew!
Al.

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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 12:53:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: BT Siphoning


Dave Bradley in HBD 1750 says:

>The new BT has some great suggestions from readers about siphoning from 
>glass carboys!  The best IMO utilizes a plastic carboy cap w/2 
>ports...one through which the racking cane passes and the 
>other to which a 1 gal plastic jug can be attached via a bored 
>stopper.  One simply squeezes the former milk jug to create a low 
>positive pressure in this full carboy and watch the beer flow from the 
>racking cane into the tube and into the attached empty carboy!  

This was submitted to BT by Bennet Dawson and he challanges "anybody to
come up with an easier siphon-starting method that offers the control, 
sanitation, and simplicity" than the one he describes.

Okay.

Throw away the milk jug.  Get a second 2-hole carboy cap and put it on the
empty receiving carboy.  Attach a short tube to the 2nd port (air port) on 
the receiving carboy cap and suck.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com




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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 12:54:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Mercury/Asbestos thread!?

Hey, when it rains it pours ...

Robert Waddell in 1750 says:

>Ok...  I guess I still don't have this Mercury thing figured out yet.  We
>have a 1965 Mercury Monteray (sic) sitting in the driveway ... Is it ok 
>to use the used parts for our beers ... Would I have to degrease the brake
>drums or just throw them in the mash?

Oh no!  Do I hear an asbestos thread brewing?

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com




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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 16:31:25 -0400
From: hbush at pppl.gov (harry)
Subject: Mini-Keg Survey Results

        A few weeks ago I asked for opinions, etc. on the 5l mini-keg
systems that are available as a low cost alternative to the full blown
Corny Kegs. The resulting 8 replies were informative and appreciated
(Thanks!). Here's the Readers Digest condensed version:

 *Type of Tap owned: Fass-Frisch or Brew King (Williams Brewing), mostly.
Most                  folks either owned the metal Fass-Frisch or
recommended it.

 *Problems:
        1) There seems to be a learning curve on the priming situation.
Most official recommendations are to prime with less sugar than if bottling
(about 1/2 the rate). If you are kegging some of your batch and bottling
some, that's a problem you'll have to work out yourself (one solution- fill
the kegs, add some more sugar, then fill the bottles. Just work out the
math first).  However, at least one respondent emphatically states that he
primes his mini-kegs at bottling rates and suffers from a couple of initial
foamy glasses from each keg, that's all.

        2) Leaks, leaks, leaks- loss of pressure when installing the CO2
cartridge ("Don't use the 8 gram cartridges, they suck- use the 16
gram..."). Leaks in the tap itself  (especially the plastic ones), loose
seals, etc. One universal recommendation is to grease the seal surfaces
(keg grease is the logical choice), but don't over-grease the valve (Brew
King?) or you might clog it!

        3) In general, the components of this system do not seem to be
especially durable, and must be treated carefully.

 *Advantages:
         Besides the obvious plusses of having a convenient, portable,
cheap kegging system that you don't have to dedicate a fridge to, two
respondents specifically stated that their beer tasted better from the keg
than from bottles filled from the same batch (go figure!).

 *Overall impression:
        Almost universally, the opinion out there is that the mini keg
systems are definfitely worth going for, but don't expect them to be
problem-free. The recent experiences we have read about here of exploding
kegs and CO2 cartridge missiles do not seem to be commonplace (but make
great HBD stories!!).

        I, for one, am leaning toward the Fass-Frisch metal tap based upon
the answers I've received. Now to find the cheapest price!


Harry

 .................................................................

"Over the gums and into the tum, yummy, yum, yum!"- Capt. Pissgums
 ..................................................................



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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 16:53:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dave Albro <dva at ibirisc2.ibi.com>
Subject: San Francisco Brewpubs


Tim Lawson <lawson at clcunix.msj.edu>

Writes:

>    I'll be going to San Francisco and Lake Tahoe at the end of June.  Can
>anyone recommend some good brewpubs or bars with lots of microbrews to
>visit (I'll definitely be stopping by Anchor)?  Thanks in advance!!

>Tim Lawson
>Cincinnati, Ohio
>lawson at clcunix.msj.edu

 The Bierhaus on Broadway (373 Broadway 415-772-0909), Boasts over 100 
microbrews. They had quite a few beers on tap. The bartender Tim, was very
helpful between free sample shots and other brewpubs and breweries to visit.




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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 16:58:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Belgian yeasts, starters, misc

Al writes:

<Celis Pale Bock is really not very "Belgian."  In my opinion, it's a slightly
<nutty pale ale brewed by a brewery formerly owned by a Belgian expatriate.

This is quite true of the US version.  One of my more interesting finds
while beer hunting last month is that in Belgium the Celis White is not
as delicious as what is brewed here, while in the case of the Pale Bock
(and they do call it Pale Bock over there too!) the converse is true.  I
found the Pale Bock on Vat while having dinner in Brugge and it was a 
wonderful Belgian Pale Ale, right in there along with Palm and DeKonnick.
I thought to myself, and mentioned this to Jackson, that it was much more
complex than the US conterpart and displayed the right balance of yeast
complexity and poundable malt foundation.  It was one of the treats of 
the journey, but of course these beers are brewed for Celis in a Belgian
brewery.  I still find it amusing that in Belgium the White beer is 
marketed under the Texas cowboy image, while in the US the emphasis is
on Belgian brewmaster tradition.  Who says marketing isnt alive in Belgium?!

John says about aging beer:

<Because the conditioning
<process is a function of the yeast, it follows that the greater yeast mass
<in the fermenter is more effective at conditioning the beer than the
<smaller amount of suspended yeast in the bottle.  Leaving the beer in the
<fermenter for a total of two or even three weeks will go a long way to
<improving the final beer.  This will also allow time for more sediment to
<settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer.

It depends on a lot of factors, not the least of which is yeast strain and
pitching quantity/viability.  Some yeasts are very strong reducers while 
others are not.  Some flavors are very strong and need to mellow, others
are best a few days out of the fermenter.  Im pretty sure John didnt mean 
to imply that normal maturation is to leave the beer on the primary for 2-3
weeks, Id advise 10-14 days tops.  You can secondary for about as long as
one pleases.  This is also an issue where brewhouse procedure and trub 
removal become important factors.  This kind of variability of technique
and ingrediants is one of the things that keeps brewing so interesting.

Jeff says:

<It's certainly true that pitching the yeast without a starter will
<probably* produce a complete fermentation.  But why take a chance on an
<ncomplete fermentation, or a fermentation that takes way longer than
<ecessary, or a fermentation that takes days to start, when making a
<tarter is so absurdly easy?

Amen to Jeff!  Not only can the fermentation take too long, the yeast
can be in a serious degree of trouble if one is brewing a high gravity
beer, or using a strain known to produce lots of aldehydes or diacetyl.
Making starters got me close to making beer that rivaled the pros, then
I started using brewery slurry whenever possible and the 2-3 day ferments
became routine.

Spencer writes:

<I made an ale (1.045 OG) using the "La Chouffe" yeast from YCKC.  It's
<got a real nice "yeast spice" character, from (to my nose, anyway)
<low-level phenols and lots of esters (yes, some banana, but not much,
<and mixed with others).  

I agree completely.  LaChouffe is the yeast I choose to use for the AHA
Conference beer, Esprit de Boire.  This is a 8 belgian degree strong ale,
and I needed enough fresh yeast to bottle condition about 45 gals of it.
If I had attempted to use dregs from a 1.084 beer, the results could have
been flat beer, or horrible off flavors.  What I did was dilute some of 
the fermenting strong ale, add some fresh strong ale wort and water. This
was probably around 1.045-1.050.  The result is a beer a lot like a 
Wit but with more yeast character, just like Spencer noted.  Light 
banana, spicy, estery but it wont overpower other elements in the mix. 
The yeast slurry from this dilute beer (5 gals) was then used in the
45-50 gal bottling.  

Jim Busch

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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 16:29:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: Kenneth K Goodrow <goodrow at merlin.etsu.edu>
Subject: Best aging times for different types of brew???


	As a new homebrewer with only three stripes on his sleeve, I 
would like to know from the wisdom of all you old-timers (please take 
that well) what the "best" aging times are for different types of beer.  
I have noticed that my stout got better after waiting a few weeks, but 
that my brown and amber ales were good a week to two after bottling.  It 
seemed that the stout got sweeter and better after four weeks.
	I know that many might say, just wait a month for all batches, 
but I plainly don't want to.  I like to drink my beer and want to know 
the earliest times I "can" do it.  What does the practical wisdom have to 
say?

	Your grains of wisdom are much appreciated and will be distilled 
down to good use.

Brewing,

Kenn Goodrow

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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 16:35:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Kenneth K Goodrow <goodrow at merlin.etsu.edu>
Subject: Most economical mail-order supply places???


	Yes, I am looking for cheap -- not because i prefer it , but 
because my grad. student budget demands it.  I would like to be sent a 
list of the best places you have found for obtaining supplies by mail/in 
person/whatever, especially in the Texas and Colorado areas, but not 
limited to those states.  If you have 800 numbers, please post them.

	Also, i am looking for the best cheap beginning extract kit for a 
gift to my brother.  Where could I go?  I have heard that there's a place 
in San Antonio, Texas, where they sell one for around $30.  Any one else 
have further info.?

thanks

Kenn

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 08:02:21 +1000 (EST)
From: David Draper <ddraper at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Publist file on Stanford archive

Dear Friends, it seems not an issue of HBD goes by where there is not at 
least one post of the form "I am going to [city], can someone mail me 
info about good beer".  I absolutely do not presume to tell people what 
to post and what not to post, and these postings do not take up much 
space.  But people should be aware that a lot of time and effort has gone 
into the construction of the file publist.Z in the stanford beer archive, 
in directory pub/clubs/homebrew/beer/docs.  It is a HUGE list of places 
to drink (and eat) in a very large number of cities all over the US, and 
if memory serves elsewhere on the planet as well.  Takes very little time 
to check there first, especially if one is going to a big city (San 
Francisco has something like thirty entries), and it rewards the efforts 
of the author(s).  Can't do ftp?  If you can browse the web, these 
archive files are accessible from either Spencer's Beer Page or The 
Brewery (and probably others too).  Check it out.  Once again, this is 
offered in all friendliness--I'm not in the flame business.

Cheers, Dave in Sydney
- --
"Life's a bitch, but at least there's homebrew" ---Norm Pyle
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper, School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, NSW 2109
Sydney, Australia. email: david.draper at mq.edu.au fax: +61-2-850-8428
             ....I'm not from here, I just live here....


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Date: Tue, 06 Jun 95 15:57:02 cst
From: "J Dudley Leaphart" <JDLEAP at ccmail.monsanto.com>
Subject: Sweet Gale - Bog Myrtle - Myrica Gale


   A while back there were some requests for a source of Sweet Gale aka Bog
   Myrtle aka Myrica Gale.

   Our local homebrew supply store has them. Contact Billings Homebrewers'
   Supply   1916 Third Ave. North   Billings, MT 59101    406-256-0261


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Date: Tue, 06 Jun 1995 16:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Shaine_Bodnar at NOTES.YMP.GOV
Subject: Re: Fast Ferment


  Submitted June 4, 1995
  >Last Wed. I made a wheat beer using 2 cans of M&F wheat malt extract.
  The recipe >is in Charlie P.'s HBC.  I added the yeast Wed. around 9 pm.
  Thursday morning the >ferment was going so wild the vodka was being
  thrown out of the airlock by the CO2.  >The  krausen was about an inch
  high in the 6.5 gal. fermenter.  Friday, it was done >and the yeast began
  to settle.  I racked Friday night.  The gravity was 1.012.  The >only
  problem was the taste.  The beer tasted like water.  My questions:  Why
  did it >ferment THAT fast. (Yeast: Muntona dry ale yeast  at  75 F).  I know
  my beer is not >ruined.  Is there anything I can do to make it more
  palatable?  I don't think dry >hopping will cover the watery taste (and
  it isn't approrirate for the style :)).  I have >thought of adding some
  fruit to the secondary.  Comments?  TIA  Glenn

  >Glenn Matthies

  It  is funny that you should mention this problem at this date.  I brewed
  a  batch  of  cherry cream ale on Saturday June 3.  When I woke on Sunday
  Morning I checked to see if fermentation had begun.  To my astonishment I
  found  that  the ferment had, as you stated , "gone wild" and the krausen
  was  approximately  an  inch  to an inch and a half thick.  Moreover, the
  vodka  and  much of the krausen had been ejected from the airlock.  After
  cleaning  the  fermenter  lid  and  replacing  the airlock I resealed the
  fermenter.   An  hour later I checked the fermenter and the same incident
  had occurred.

  I  believe  the  reason  the  for  the spewage was due to the fact that I
  overfilled the fermenter.  I scooped out approximately 5 cups of beer and
  resealed  to complete the fermentation process.  Within three hours or so
  the  beer  appeared  to  have completely fermented.  I found this hard to
  believe,  even  though  it had a specific gravity reading of about  1.015
  (making the alcohol content about 7% by weight), so I added one packet of
  dry  yeast  to  make sure that the batch had fermented completely.  I did
  not get any more activity.

  I  live  in  Las Vegas where the temperature this past weekend was in the
  100's.   I  don't  know  what  the temperature was where you were but the
  people  at  the place I go to get my brewing supplies said that it is not
  uncommon  for  a  5  gallon  batch  of  beer  to  ferment over night when
  temperatures  are  high.  However, I have not tried this batch yet to see
  if  it  has the watery taste you described.  I hope this helps.  Sorry so
  long.

  Shaine
  Note on the bathroom stall door reads "Some come to sit and think, others
  just to ponder, I come to sh*t and stink and fart like f**king thunder"

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 95 01:01:43 GMT
From: steve brown <steve at zaxxon.demon.co.uk>
Subject: ice beer?

I don't know if any one has notice the prevalance of 'ice' beers in
the local bars.

i have tried to make an 'ice' beer, with not much success.

from what i understand ice beer is made by frezeing the brew after
fermentaion. the way i have followed was:

place the fermention, after brewing in the bucket, in a frezzer,
and the water turns in to ice. pass the wort? through a sive, thus
removing the ice nee water. bottle / barrel the remains. this should
give a stronger result.

the only problem is the result that it is strong but it tasts crap.

any one with any thoughts on the subject?








 .
E-mail: steve at zaxxon.demon.co.uk                /|\
IRC: #zaax  at  w/ends                            / |z \
Running: amiga 1200 350M overdrive            ---|--a-
\""""""x
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thing's a computer can't do: Find the Marmite in Tesco's


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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 21:32:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Lelivelt <mjl at email.unc.edu>
Subject: southeast judges addresses?

I'm the BJCP database manager for the  southeast.  Does anyone know the 
addresses for the following individuals?

Keith Wilbourn, Louisville, KY

Dick Shaw, Memphis, TN

james Ingram, Memphis, TN

Please contact me with this info, or have them contact me.

Mike Lelivelt
mjl at email.unc.edu
919-408-0451

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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 22:01:10 -0700
From: jeffpolo at eskimo.com (Jeff Wade)
Subject: Northern Beers of Washington State.

        Just when you thought the Pacific Northwest, specifically the
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Seattle, Washington area was becoming saturated with=
 microbreweries
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20comes a =ECNorthern Explosion=EE if you will.  A=
 trip this weekend up
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20north to Bellingham, Washington left this beer=
 hunter in full
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20anticipation of what the future will bring.  Three=
 newly developed
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20operating brewpubs in Bellingham!

         First a stop at the Orchard Street Brewery.  Unfortunately this
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20brewery did not have its=ED own beers on tap yet,=
 but did have a
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20fine selection of microbrews from the=
 Washington/Oregon area.
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Orchard Street Brewery is located in a quiet,=
 newly developed
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20industrial park and adjoins itself to the newest=
 craze in
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20homebrewing, U-Brew.  I was fortunate enough to=
 try some of the
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20U-Brew=EDs all-grain beers made by the manager=
 himself.  Quite
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20tasty, and reassuring of doubts that the=
 home-brewed beer flavor
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20is still there.  The Pub itself at Orchard Street=
 is very novae
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20and displays two hand painted oil portraits of=
 the actual label
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20and coaster scenes.  The Pub is warmed with a=
 huge brick woodstove
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20for fired pizza=EDs. The overall quality of food=
 is beyond four
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20stars!  The service is beyond hospitable.  I am=
 looking forward to
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20another visit at Orchard Street Brewery when=
 their beers are fine
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20tuned and ready to quaff!    One question I left=
 with was the
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20symbolization, if any, of the Orchard Street=
 Breweries label.
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Well, decide for yourself.  Located at 709=
 Orchard Drive.

        Second stop, Mount Baker Brewing Company.  This brewery is located
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20downtown and does not really sit well as far as=
 ambiance goes.  The
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20brewery is divided into two sides.  The non-smoking=
 side looks like
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20and upscale Denny=EDs, while the bar(smoking) side=
 looks like a 70=EDs
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20style nightclub with not much activity going on. =
 The beers offered
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20at Mount Baker Brewing Company were commendable to=
 say the least.
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Three beers were currently on tap:  Glacier Wheat-=
 American style
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20wheat ale with cascade hops being quite apparent in=
 taste.  Served
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20with a lemon.   Mt. Baker Ale- Full bodied, hopped=
 nicely, amber in
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20color, with beautiful clarity for the style.  Very q=
uaffable.
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Grizzly Stout- My favorite offered!  This oatmeal=
 stout is infused
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20with cluster and Willamette hops.  The beer had=
 coffee tones
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20throughout and almost a nitrogen based appeal to it.=
  This one
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20could be enjoyed at breakfast if desired.  Located=
 at 1408 Cornwall
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Avenue.

        Third stop was at Boundary Bay Brewery which was not open to the
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20public yet.  It is located only two blocks away at=
 1107 Railroad
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Avenue.

        Feeling yet incomplete in my brewery hunting, I decided to make my
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20last and final stop in Mount Vernon, Washington at=
 the 2 1/2 month
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20old Skagit River Brewing.  Two beers offered at this=
 railroad-side
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20pub.  Dutch Gold- A full flavored, but light bodied=
 lager.  Brewed
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20in the =ECkolsh=EE style.  Served at cooler=
 temperatures really gives
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20this a true lager appeal.  Steelie-Brown Ale-  in=
 the style of  the
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20English nut brown ales.  This beer fills the mouth=
 and leaves you
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20with the enjoyment of  rich roast and caramel tones.=
  Leaves palate
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20quite clean upon finish.  Skagit River Brewing will=
 offer a
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20selection of seasonals to include a Scottish ale, po=
rter,
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20oktoberfest, and a stout.  Live entertainment is=
 offered on various
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20dates.  Located downtown Mount Vernon, next to I-5.

        I am left with the feeling of a return trip up north again being a
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20requisite.  The Bellingham and Mount Vernon area now=
 houses strong
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20contenders in the microbrewing industry.  The future=
 will
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20definitely be a positive one for this growing=
 Northern Washington
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20area.
symbolic value behind the anxietybeer crazed   Look for their beers near you=
!=00=00=00

Internet: Jeffpolo at eskimo.com
http://www.eskimo.com/~jeffpolo/jeff.htm
  Eskimo North, Bellevue, WA
 **************************
  OFFICIAL WWW PAGE OF
         HONEY BEE HAMS.
 **************************
                       AT:
WWW-http://www.eskimo.com/~jeffpolo/



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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 23:10:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cary Kiest <kiestc at PEAK.ORG>
Subject: RE: Trub Removal

"ED KENDALL         252-3436" <C375 at gollum.sas.mrms.navy.mil> writes:

> ... What are your favorite
> methods/procedures for getting the cooled wort off the trub?  I've
> tried letting the cooled wort settle for a few hours before siphoning
> but that still, it seems to me, leaves a lot of good wort still
> trapped in the trub.  I have tried to strain the stuff through a
> steeping bag but it plugs up solidly. Very frustrating.  My fall back
> procedure has been to wait until after primary, but most references
> recommend against doing that.

Here's a method that I've found to work quite well.

1.  At the end of the boil, insert immersion chiller and cool wort to 
desired pitching temperature.

2.  Empty boiling pot contents into a five gallon plastic fermenter with 
a spigot installed in the base.  Some filtering can (and usually should) 
be done during this step by pouring the wort through a strainer, but this 
will only snare large globs of irish moss, hop flowers, and mercury, 
while letting the trub flow through with the wort.

3.  Pitch yeast into your fermenter.  I prepare about a quart of liquid 
yeast "starter" so that fermentation will begin in less than twelve hours.

4.  Aerate using an aquarium pump and air stone for about an hour.  I 
sometimes have to break the hour down into ten minute segments to avoid a 
"foam over".  I also scrub the air by passing it through an airstone 
submerged in hydrogen peroxide before it reaches the airstone in the wort 
- -- kind of like my old water pipe from the '70s ;-)

5.  Let the wort sit in your fermenter for a couple of hours.  Most of the 
trub will settle to the bottom during this time.

6.  In this final step, I filter the trub from the wort while 
transferring it from the plastic fermenter to a glass carboy.  My filter 
consists of nylon hose stocking cut just above the ankle.  I secure the 
stocking to the bucket spigot so that all wort must travel down through 
the toe region before going into a funnel and then into my carboy.

7. Place a blowoff tube or airlock onto your carboy as usual and allow 
the wort to ferment.

The nylon stocking works really well.  It's mesh is just the right size 
to trap nearly all of the trub.  It's shape prevents plugging as trub 
slowly fills the stocking from toe to ankle, leaving enough open material 
above so that the wort can flow through freely.

Note that this method requires considerable handling of the wort.  To 
avoid infection, I'm pretty anal about keeping EVERYTHING sanitary.  
Pitching a large, healthy yeast starter also helps.  I've had nothing but 
clear, clean tasting batches for over two years now.

Hope this helps.

Regards, Cary.
________________________________
Cary S. Kiest  <kiestc at peak.org>
finger to view PGP key: 65B4303D
9F485513F00F8BA0880BD2FA965D1F49

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 95 05:46:00 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (Ronald J. La Borde)
Subject: CO2 pressure - gauge readings

Larry Bristol writes: 
 
>If your CO2 bottle and regulator are placed outside the fridge, >however, then 
>parts of the system will be at one temperature and parts of it >will be at
another. 

True

>Play with this hypotechtical - suppose we have one CO2 bottle at
>850psi/75F and 
>another at 500psi/45F and we put a line between them.  Will gas >flow from one 
>to the other?  No - they are at equilibrium.  

I am not so sure of this.  Seems like the higher pressure CO2 gas would flow
into the lower pressure bottle until some balance was reached.  I believe
this balance would be temperature attained after the mixing of the incoming
gas with the gas present in the low temperature bottle.  Once the new
temperature and balance are approached the flow would almost stop but slowly
continue.

Larry's discussion related to the gauge readings of CO2 bottles so I am
assuming that the above statement is without the gauges.  With gauges also
included in the above supposition, say both set at 20 PSI, then yes no flow
would occur because the pressure would be the same therefore no driving
force is present.

I also believe that gauges (really regulators) don't vary pressure with
temperature like Larry seems to say but that regulators controll pressure by
use of springs.  If the bottle and gauge set are placed into the
refrigerator the spring dosen't have the same response to temperature change
that the CO2 has.  Therefore the regulator will hold it's setting at any
practical temperature.

All of the above is speculation on my part!!!!

**************************************************************
Ronald J. La Borde |
Work (504)568-4842 | "If the only tool you have is a hammer,    
Home (504)837-0672 | you tend to see every problem as a nail."  
Metairie, LA       | 
**************************************************************


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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 08:07:38 est
From: Robert_Ser at ceo.sts-systems.ca
Subject: RE: Labatt's Buyout

Robin Hanson asks about the Labatt buyout...
 
Labatt has received a 2.7 billion dollar (Cnd) offer from Interbrew, 
a Belgian company. This purchase would include the 1.3 billion dollar 
debt owed by Labatt. Although the deal is not finalized, it looks as 
though it will go through.
 
Rob in Montreal
Robert_Ser at ceo.sts-systems.ca




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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 08:26:06 est
From: Robert_Ser at ceo.sts-systems.ca

Subject: RE: Sodium Metabisulphite
X-Ceo_Options: Certified

Al K. responds to this comment:
> I then sterilized the barrel with a blend of sodium metabisulphite
> and citric acid.....

Al's response was: 
> Sodium metabisulphite does not sterilize. It does not even sanitize.
> It *inhibits* yeast growth.
 
I am confused... Although I know that sodium metabisulphite on its 
own does not sanitize or sterilize, my understanding was that once it 
is combined with an acid or 'stronger' alcohol (above 8% or so), that 
it creates a form of hydrosulphuric acid that kills the nasties...  
I am not entirely sure about this, and in fact I do not even use 
sodium metabisulphite, but I seem to remember reading about this 
somewhere. Are there any chemists out there that could clear this up 
for me?  
Rob in Montreal
Robert_Ser at ceo.sts-systems.ca




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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 95 08:30:03 EDT
From: NParker at Lockheed.on.ca (Neil Parker)
Subject: re: CO2 Regulator Pressure

Larry Bristol writes:


>Play with this hypotechtical - suppose we have one CO2 bottle at 850psi/75F
>and another at 500psi/45F and we put a line between them.  Will gas flow 
>from one to the other?  No - they are at equilibrium.

Sure the gas will flow.  What is preventing the higher pressure gas from 
pushing into the cavity occupied by the lower pressure gas?  In any static
system the pressure will be the same everywhere.

Neal Parker

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1752, 06/08/95