FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  adjunct-o-rama (Dominic Cardea)
  All-grain schedule (SWEENERB)
  Old grain/ yeast harvesting (Eamonn McKernan)
  secondary aeration (Domenick Venezia)
  Bow-Tie Effekt revisited (" Robert Bloodworth                            ZFBTO    - MT0054")
  Pitching from primary (Beersgood)
  Intelligent fermenter messages. (Domenick Venezia)
  Lautering Efficiency (2 of 2) ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  Lautering Efficiency (1 of 2) ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  RE: Soo   Thanks (uswlsrap)
  Re: Water Woes HBD #1758 (Art Steinmetz)
  Exploding Growler (Nachman, James)
  San Francisco Pubs/Breweries (Tony Waldron)
  Inexpensive Lagering?? ("Morris, Mike")
  Re:  Subject: Verb - Collap ("Mark Schmitt")
  Gelatin Finings (Mark Kirby)
  Dry Vs Liquid Yeast (JOHNMAJ)
  Decoctions/Hops/Lautering/Water (A. J. deLange)
  Primary->Secondary/extract efficiency/storing beer (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Brewing Courses info needed (Nir Navot)
  coolers (Andy Walsh)
  WYEAST 1084 - PERFORMANCE QUESTIONS (Andrew McGowan )
  Request for ESB Recipe (Steven W. Schultz )
  Re: Christoffel Blond (spencer)
  RE: Pressure bottling/Gott coolers/alcohol-food grade DME (Brian Pickerill)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:50:35 -0400
From: Dominic_Cardea at nps.gov (Dominic Cardea)
Subject: adjunct-o-rama

          Howdy in cyber-pub land,

          I live in a very remote local in S. Az, lots of time to
          brew.

          I am using kits and our Javilina snout stout was a big hit.
          I am ready to start ading other things to my beer (besides
          hops) to add flavor and or potency. There are a number of
          traditional grains and beans that offer a syrup when boiled.

          I want to add this syrup to my malt extract. How do I figure
          out how sweet it is and what amount to add? keep in mind
          that there are very unique flavors that go along with this.

          also , the giant Saguaro Cactus is fruiting out and I wish
          to add this to a nice lager or ale...A) which style of beer
          lends itself to fruit aditives and B) once again how do I
          figure how much fruit to add?

          Should I just bail on the malt extracts all together and
          mash a brew from these grains an fruits? will my summer days
          precludeme from brewing (it is 104 today, teens by
          weekend!)?

          personal e-mail responses are fine.
          Dominic

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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 12:14:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: SWEENERB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU
Subject: All-grain schedule


 Bones> From: "Timothy P. Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>"
 Bones> <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu> Subject: high gravity all-grain

 Bones> <snip>

 Bones> FWIW, I believe the time commitment associated with all-grain
 Bones> brewing has been severely underestimated in the late thread on
 Bones> that subject----either that or I am just anal about sanitation
 Bones> and cleanliness. ;) When you consider yeast starter prep and
 Bones> maintenance, water pre-treatment (boiling in my case), grain
 Bones> crushing, recipe preparation and research, pre-brewing cleaning
 Bones> and sanitation of the kitchen/brewhouse, step mashes,
 Bones> decoctions, sparging, boiling, chilling, aeration, pitching,
 Bones> CLEANUP, note-taking, computer logging of notes, racking,
 Bones> bottling/kegging, etc. the time investment is frickin' HUGE.  I
 Bones> have never had an all-grain brew-day less than 7 hours total
 Bones> even with a single infusion mash----although, I boil on the
 Bones> stovetop and have an immersion chiller.  This, of course,
 Bones> doesn't include any of the other stuff mentioned above.
 Bones> Homebrewing is not that cheap when you consider your labor cost
 Bones> alternative---even at minimum wage!  You simply have to have a
 Bones> consuming passion to be crazy enough to brew your own.  Just my
 Bones> perspective, YMMV.
It may take some brewers 7 hours or more to do a start to finish an all-
grain brew, but I maintain it doesn't have to.  
My record for an all-grain batch about 4 1/2 hours as detailed below. 
Keep in mind that for a significant part of this time (mashing) you don't even
have to be present (sometimes I go for a run).  

15 min - Crush 10 lbs grain with Maltmill (start heating water for mash, too)
70 min - add water to grain & mash; begin heating sparge water
45 min - drain mash and sparge
90 min - boil
20 min - cool with wort chiller
10 min - siphon into carboy and pitch yeast
20 min - final clean up

That is a total of 4 hours 30 minutes, with the 2 hours and 10 minutes prior to
the boil the only time added to what I used to do for extract brewing.  Ok,
maybe I added about 30 minutes to my boil time, but that's still only
2 hr. 40 min. extra.  Not a hell of a lot of time really, and it is fun
time on top of that.  

As for equipment, the only extra pieces I have are a Maltmill (it is
wonderful--thanks Jack), an 8 gal. enamel pot and Easymasher (no connection to 
JSP, blah, blah, blah; just a satisfied customer, blah, blah, blah) and a 
bunch of grain (I did start out with a 40qt enamel brewing pot which I now use 
to heat my sparge water).   Cost: Maltmill $105 (but you can get a Corona 
mill for less than $50); pot - $19; Easymasher $29; other
misc things like my homemade immersion chiller -$50.  For me cost/batch for 
all-grain vs. extract is significant, typically about $10 per batch cheaper
for all-grain.  So rough and dirty that's about 12 batches to breakeven.

As always, ymmv.

Bob Sweeney
sweenerb at msuvx1.memst.edu
The University of Memphis

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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 13:24:08 -0400
From: eamonn at chinook.physics.utoronto.ca (Eamonn McKernan)
Subject: Old grain/ yeast harvesting

With all the IMBR questions in recent HBD's, I've got a new twist: I haven't
brewed this batch yet, but is it ruined?
You see, I bought all the ingredients for a Marzen, and a wheat beer in
anticipation of spending a weekend testing my new RIMS. Well, it's over a month
since I did this shopping, and the *crushed* grain and whole hops are still
sitting on a shelf in plastic bags in the cold room in my basement. I hope
to solve my leaking problems this week, and want to brew this weekend.

(BTW anyone have any tips on leaking compression fittings? 1/2" flared copper
pipe->compression tee leaking at two of the three connections. No I didn't over
torque it and warp the brass ferrule that goes in between)

No way am I throwing out the ingredients, but the hops are probably oxidized, 
the grain is not damp or anything, but people have been saying recently to
brew as soon as it's crushed. Should I do anything differently to account
for the aged ingredients? IMBR? (couldn't resist!)

********
Also, Domenick Venezia spoke about harvesting yeast from the secondary in 
HBD 1760. What's up with the decanting procedure? Are you only keeping the 
top layer of settled stuff? Specifically what do  you keep please?
Further, do you have to store it in the fridge? Why not bottle and leave in the
basement? Autolysis?
           
        Love that Toronto heat!
        Eamonn McKernan
        eamonn at atmosp.physics.utoronto.ca

Oh yeah, what a pain in the you-know what! Twice resubmitted this posting
because:
Your article sent to homebrew is being rejected. The reason:
 --Contains  line(s) greater than 80 chars in length --

ARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH !

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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 10:50:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: secondary aeration

- ------------------------------

Date:          Mon, 19 Jun 1995 09:46:55 EST5EDT
From: "David Wright" <LSMAIL at osp.emory.edu>
Subject:       Re: Primary -> Secondary

Someone asked:
> 1) Can I just pour the wort through a funnel back into the carboy, or do I
> have to siphon it?

David Wright answered:
>1) You can do either funnel or siphon. Although Using the funnel will 
>aerate(sp?) your wort. This was a topic of discussion in the HBD 
>awhile back. The pros of aerating a second time is that you will give 
>the yeast a kick and your wort will ferment a bit faster and more 
>complete. The cons being that you have a greater chance of infection.

The discussion concerned a technique called "dropping" which is simply
racking to the secondary fermenter with aeration.  Dropping is not
necessary with most yeasts, but with particularly flocculent strains it
can prevent struck fermentations.  However, dropping should be done after
a short primary fermentation, say a couple days.  It is necessary that the
yeast still be very active at drop time so as to completely utilize the 
additional oxygen.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com



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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 14:06:11 EDT
From: " Robert Bloodworth ZFBTO - MT0054" <debaydr9 at ibmmail.com>
Subject: Bow-Tie Effekt revisited

  
Just a comment...,
  
I also had the bow-tie effect visit on friday June 16.
Object of discussion:
A split batch of trappist ale.
  
The sample in my 30 liter cylindrical plastic fermenter showed the normal
creamy head topped with a spherical dark brown film.
  
The second fermenter is a 20 liter spherical glass carboy (with a convex
bottom). I saw the cream colored bowtie after having read the first post and
rotated the carboy 90? to observe the effect. The bow-tie slowly dissappeared
during the next 12h and I got a even creamy-brown head.
  
Guess that blows the flat bottommed fermenter theory.
  
I'm leaning towards the X-files, paranormal theory, but am wondering if Elvis
was sighted anywhere in the vicinity recently.
  
Bob Bloodworth
Cologne

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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 14:00:02 -0400
From: Beersgood at aol.com
Subject: Pitching from primary

Dear Gentlebrewers,

I've seen this mentioned in passing but have not heard a good description,
yet. How does one pitch from the sediment left in the bottom of the primary
fermenter? If I have another batch ready when I transfer, can I just wipe off
the crud ring with a paper towel and rubbing alchohol and then pour the
freshly boiled, but cooled wort in? Or should I try to somehow remove only
the yeast from the bottom leaving most of the trub (if that is what it is)
and can it or something. I am currently propagating on slants so I am not
sure I would want to do that but I would like to know how.

Anyway, a friend of mine nearly breaks into tears every time he has to throw
away all that yeast and would like to try and reuse it somehow. But despite
my thorough lurking here on the HBD, I am unsure of what would be the best
procedure.

Thanks,
Dave Petersen
Crete, NE

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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 11:04:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Intelligent fermenter messages.

- ------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 95 09:57:00 EST
From: "MOTHER::S29033" <lstronk at sikorsky.com>
Subject: Alien fermenter messages??

Kirk writes:
>Now, although I think John P was a bit out-of-line with his cut about
>naming the yeast Stardust, I agreed with his suggestion that there may
>be an attempt being made to communicate.  Therefore, I wired the
>fermenter to my satellite dish and it trained on NGC 5139.  Now, gummygoo
>coalescing on the surface of the current batch is clearly forming the
>pattern of a star group which I simply have not yet identified.

I am afraid that we have all misconstrued the source of this "Bowtie"
fermenter message.  After years of Hard Copy and the National Enquirer
we all jumped to the inane conclusion that this was a message from 
alien intelligences.  That's silly.  The real source of the effect is 
much more mundane.  Your yeast has simply evolved into an intelligent 
lifeform and this is a cry for help.  You must preserve this yeast at ALL 
costs as the destruction of intelligent life is murder!  Unfortunately,
by now most of the yeast has probably starved to death or was washed down 
the drain.  I only hope that this intelligence is rooted at the cellular 
level and is not a result of a critical mass of yeast or you have 
unwittingly killed a living, loving, being.  If I were you I would be so 
guilt ridden as to be unable to drink the resultant beer, knowing that you
were consuming the last of a new species.  So, send it to me, and perhaps
I can salvage some honor from this horrible mistake.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com



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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 12:30:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: Lautering Efficiency (2 of 2)


(2 of 2) Lautering Efficiency

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Hard Way.  This isn't actually hard, but I can't do it because I don't
have a good set of high capacity scales to use.  Reference the HBD post by
George Fix wherein he details an actual brew session (Aug 94?)

1) Weigh the total grain bill, W.

2) Measure the total mash liquor, Vm, and the total sparge liquor, Vs.

3) As the sparge completes, take a hydrometer sample of the last runnings.
Record the sg and Balling readings for this sample.

4) Take hydrometer reading of thoroughly stirred kettle contents. Record
the sg and Balling readings for this sample.

5a) Weigh entire contents of your lauter tun, and subtract the grain bill
weight to yield the weight of the wort held in the grain, Wg, OR

5b) Use the estimate of .1 gal wort per lb of grain held in the grain to
estimate the volume of wort in the grain, Vg

Using 5a) and the Balling reading of the last runnings, P, compute the
weight of the extract held in the grain, Weg:

          Weg = (P/100)*Wg,  lbs, OR

Using 5b) and the sg reading of the last runnings and the weight of water
per gallon, (say it's 8 lb/gal), compute Weg:

          Weg = [(8*sg)*Vg]*(P/100)

Assuming no waste (spillage, pumps, lines), volume of wort in kettle is:

           Vk = Vm + Vs - Vg  (mash water + sparge water - grain water)

Weight of wort in the kettle is:

           Wk = Vk*sg*8

and the weight of the extracted sugar in the kettle is then:

          Wek = Wk * (P/100)

Again, in the last two equations "P" is the kettle Balling reading, sg is
the kettle gravity reading, and the constant "8" is the out-of-my-ear
estimate for pure water weight per gallon, in lbs.

Finally, the total sugar you've extracted (in lbs) is Wes = Weg + Wek,
and your efficiency is that extracted sugar weight divided by the grain
bill:

            E = (Wes/W)*100  (times 100 to express as a percent)

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Easy Way: typical numbers are 26-32, with 30 being, I think, the norm.

Hard Way: I think typical numbers will be about 60-70%, but I have not
done them accurately enough to report here.

If I thought there were any errors in the above schemes, I would have
corrected them.  My recommendation: don't worry about extraction rates
EXCEPT as an indicator of a major problem.  Concentrate instead on
controlling mash temperature schedule as accurately as possible, and
on controlling the sparge to last at least 20 minutes.  But, as my
brewbuddy points out, the extra extract obtained with a 60 min sparge
over a 20 min sparge could be more easily obtained with an extra 1/4 lb
of grain.  You do need to take the measurements consistently if you
want to do a good job of hitting target OG's with your recipes.  I find
that with a tweaked efficiency number in SUDS 4.0, I predict to within
1 point, provided I get those darn volumes measured well--regardless of
beer style.

KRF Colorado Springs

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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 12:29:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: Lautering Efficiency (1 of 2)


(1 of 2) John Shearer asks about lautering efficiency:

Offhand I see 3 main sources of gravity per pound per gallon (hereafter
referred to as pts*gal/lb):

1) During the mash the time/temp pgm determines overall extraction, but
more importantly determines the fermentable/non-fermentable ratio.

2) During the lauter, fast/low-temp sparging lowers the amount of sugar
extracted. I have not seen a measureable difference between using 160F
vs 170F water, but I *can* measure the yield difference between a 15 min
vs a 45 min sparge.

3) Wort volume losses during handling between the lauter and the
fermenter will drive efficiency, *depending on how you measure it*.

> Concerning lautering efficiency.  How do I determine it?

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Easy Way 1.  When you're filling the fermenter measure the gravity (OG)
in points, or (sg -1)*1000.  With the fermenter graduated every half
gallon from say 4.5 to 6 gallons or with some other technique, determine
the final brew volume, V.  Then, given the weight of your grain bill, W,
compute:

          extraction rate = (OG * V)/W    (pts*gal/lb)

The hardest part is to get a good measure of the final beer volume--it has
a big affect on your final number.  Also, this number DOES NOT reflect how
well you're mashing or lautering. It gives an idea of overall process
efficiency, and includes everything in one big lump--including how much or
how little wort you wasted, left in the grain, left in the kettle, soaked
up in the hops.

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Easy Way 2. If you can accurately measure the volume in the kettle, take
a hydrometer reading from the kettle before the boil.  Squeeze all the
liquid you can from the grains and pour into the kettle, and ignore what's
left in the grain. Use the same formula as in Easy Way 1.  This method
gives a reasonable extraction efficiency that eliminates the effects of
loss in the hops and kettle (significant in a 10 gal keg-type kettle).

See (2 of 2) coming up...

KRF Colorado Springs

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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 14:41:00 EDT
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: RE: Soo   Thanks                                                 

                                                                               
Thanks for the replies to my inquiry on places in Sault Ste. Marie.            
Although we're planning a camping trip at Lake Superior Provincial Park,       
Soo is the nearest city, and I felt we should be prepared for an "urban"       
excursion.                                                                     
                                                                               
SUMMARY:                                                                       
In SSM, Michigan, a beer bar called the Ojibway Hotel was recommended.         
Bottled, not draught, apparently.  About 80 different, but half of the         
menu wasted on swill.  That still leaves half for good ones.                   
                                                                               
In SSM, the Cellar Tap at Bruce and Bay.  Extract brewpub with so-so house     
beers and good guest beers (bottled or draught?).  Recently reopened--don't    
know if review refers to new or old management.                                
                                                                               
Now go have a beer,                                                            
                                                                               
Bob Paolino    uswlsrap at ibmmail.com                                            
Madison                                                                        

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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 22:56:43 EDT
From: (Art Steinmetz)
Subject: Re: Water Woes HBD #1758


>>> I have a water softener and
have heard softened water is unsuitable for brewing.   What does the 
water softener do to the water?  Is there a filter that will
counteract the softener's effect?  I could pull water off upstream 
of the softener, stick to dark beers, boil and decant off percipitate,
etc..  I'd rather have more flexibility though, and hate to buy 
bottled water.  What do other brewers do that are in this situation?
>>>

Just this week I did an experiment to answer that question for myself.  I've
heard the same received wisdom and now I believe it.  I have highly carbonate
water. 350 ppm total dissolved solids and pH 8.0.  We have a basic ion exchange
water softener.  Sodium replaces the calcium. 

I normally pre-boil unsoftened water and get a healthy precip.  Last week I
brewed an IPA that way using a 40/60/70 deg. C. mash sched.  I tested for
starch after 20 minutes into the last rest.  It was negative.

This week I brewed the same recipe with the same mash profile.  I preboiled the
softened water.  There was no precip as I expected.  After 45 min at 70 deg. C.
(90 min. since first hitting 60 C.) I still got a positive starch test.  I
sparged at that point anyway.

>From this point on the procedure is not identical since batch A used a 1 pint
starter and batch B was racked onto the lees of the batch A.

It's back to boil and decant for me.
- -- Art
asteinm at pipeline.com
76044,3204 at compuserve.com

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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 15:19:38 EST
From: james.nachman at cellular.uscc.com (Nachman, James)
Subject: Exploding Growler

     This is in response to Mike Spinelli's posting in HBD 1760. My dad 
     said that, in the days of the icebox, a growler's function was to 
     bring home cold beer home from the corner tavern. Ice was expensive 
     and was only delivered on certain days so the space in the icebox 
     was reserved for meats and things that would spoil if not chilled. 
     He said that growlers we only used to transport beer and that they 
     were not intended to be used as a normal bottle because they did 
     not have the strength to hold the pressure of carbonation. 
     
     Jim
     
        james.nachman at cellular.uscc.com
        RF Engineer
        United States Cellular Corporation
        Chicago
                \\/////
                (.) (.)
- -----------o000---(_)---000o------------------------------------------------ 
>Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 11:03:10 -0400 (EDT)
>From: "mike spinelli" <paa3983 at dpsc.dla.mil> 
>Subject: exploding growler
     
>My wife's mom brought me a real nice ceramic growler from her hometown in 
>Germany.  Smaller than 2 litres, with a nice cathedral motif on it.
>Most have a metal handle with 2 holding straps, but this growler had a 
>ceramic handle molded to the vessel.
>I filled the bad boy with a weizen and on the 7th day it EXPLODED atop of my 
>entertainment center.  I got paranoid so I took all 75 bottles of the nitro 
>and put in the crawlspace.  So far, none have gone off.
>2nd part of this disaster is that her mom packed 2 of the bottles in her 
>luggage to take back to Germany.  One broke en route (She still loves me 
>though).
>Question: Are these growlers filles just like my 16 oz. bottles, or is there 
>some special procedure I don't know about.  BTW, I primed w/ 1 cup sugar in 
>about 4.5 gals. and left 2" of headspace in growler.
     
>Mike
     
     


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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 14:00:41 -0600 (MDT)
From: Tony Waldron <tonywal at unm.edu>
Subject: San Francisco Pubs/Breweries

Asking for a friend; anyone know of some particularly enjoyable Brew Pubs 
or Micro-Breweries in the Bay area? Please reply to E-mail address. 

TIA,

Tony Waldron, tonywal at unm.edu
Manager, Hardware Maintenance
UNM-CIRT                             
2701 Campus Blvd.                  
Alb. N.M. 87131
505-277-8098





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Date: Tue Jun 20 16:09 EDT 1995
From: "Morris, Mike" <morrim at uh2309p01.daytonoh.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Inexpensive Lagering??


Quick questions for the collective, now that we're back on line...

I'm an extract brewer who has made some fairly decent ales,
and I'm considering making a lager.  I noticed in CP's NCJOHB,
that his recipes for lagers (including bocks, etc) make little
mention of keeping the wort at appropriate temperatures.
My basement is probably in the low 60s F.  I gotta believe that
fermenting lager yeasts at that temperature will not deliver the
appropriate flavor.  Any suggestions for maintaining a constant,
cool temperature?  I was thinking about rigging some sort of ice bath.

Also, I just brewed a "quick and dirty" pale ale last night with 2
cans of John Bull extract (total of 6.6 lbs) and 1.5 lbs of DME.  That's
over 8 lbs of extract, yet my OG was only 1.035!  How can that be?

Thanks!

Mike
mike.morris at daytonoh.attgis.com

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Date: 20 Jun 1995 16:42:32 -0400
From: "Mark Schmitt" <Mark_Schmitt.DIV#u#613 at day01.uu.saic.com>
Subject: Re:  Subject: Verb - Collap

                      Re:  Subject: Verb - Collapsing Foam
Dan's trying to find the correct scientific term for collapsing foam.

How about bubble coalescence or since the degree of foam stability is referred
to as "persistence", loss of persistence.  But I think it's really technically
called phalling phoam.

Mark Schmitt


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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 18:22:58 -0400
From: mkirby at isnet.is.wfu.edu (Mark Kirby)
Subject: Gelatin Finings

When I last posted this question there was a rather long dry spell when
we didn't receive the digest so here goes again. While preparing an
amber one afternoon I realized I was out of Irish Moss but went ahead
and brewed without it, thinking I'd be able to clear the beer with 
gelatin in the secondary if needed. After racking in the secondary, the
beer was considerably hazy and failed to clear after 4 weeks. I added
one envelope (I know..too much) of Knox gelatin 3-4 days before I intended
to bottle. After 2 days, I noticed a line had developed half way down the
carboy, above which the beer had cleared, but below had "chunks" which
were not there before. The gelatin was dissolved well (as per HBD advice)
so I figured the chunks were yeasty beasties coagulating due to the 
flockulant (sp?) action of the gelatin. It remained this way until I sat
the carboy in the freezer for a couple of hours before bottling, and this
seemed to do the trick. I primed, bottled, and now I notice haze again in 
the beer which seems to disappear some when chilled (obviously not chill
haze). This brew was my first experience with liquid yeast (1056), so I'm
curious as to whether I have some sort of wild yeast (or other) infection
or is this pseudo-normal for liquid yeast. I followed the instructions on
the package (no starter), which had swelled considerably by the time I 
pitched. The lag time was about the same as my previous experiences with
dry yeast (< 48 hrs.). I've never had an infection in my brews and have
never had the pleasure (?) of tasting one. The beer tastes decent, aside
from being a little too yeasty (it's hard to decant when the sides of the
bottle have yeast residues as well as the bottom). One last point, I did not
add additional yeast at bottling, as has been suggested when using gelatin
to clear. Can anybody help?

Todd Kirby

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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 19:58:16 -0400
From: JOHNMAJ at aol.com
Subject: Dry Vs Liquid Yeast

Since nobody seems to know why, or at least wants to state outright why dried
yeast is worse than liquid, I thought I would put in my two cents worth.

Dry, and liquid yeast are cultured, and grown up the same way. It's when the
lab has enough yeast to seperate out into packages that the difference comes
into play.

Liquid yeast is simply put into a sterilized package, and sealed. The  level
of sanitation is controlled by makeing sure everything that touches the yeast
is sanitized. Pretty easy, since all professional labware you would need to
culture yeast can be autoclaved.

However to dry the yeast, without damaging it, the yeast has warm air blown
over, and though it, while being stirred. Since air is very hard to
sterilize, you can be as sterile as you want before this stage, and still end
up with infected yeast, if say the lab person in the drying area forgot to
put on his right gaurd, or stepped in some dog crap before coming to work.
Please don't send flames about these examples, as I know they are only a
small possibilty in a good lab but they illustrate possible air drying
problems nicely.

All that being said the are dryed yeasts that are better than the rest. These
being in my experience Muton, and Fison, Edme, and Whitbread. TOSS ALL WHITE,
AND BLACK GENERIC LOOKING YEAST PACKS, AS THEY ARE A SURE SOURCE OF
INFECTION! 

Also Since dryed yeast is $0.75 a package, and you want to use two, does it
really make sence to gamble $20 to $30 dollars of ingrediates to save the
$2.50 to $3.00 liquid costs?

   

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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 16:49:28 -0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Decoctions/Hops/Lautering/Water

Bill Rucker (#1760) asked about sizing and consistency of decoctions.
There are no hard and fast guidelines here. You have to experiment and find
the correct amounts for your equipment and technique. The first two
decoctions should be thick i.e. you should carry over very little liquid
(and thus very little of the enzymes). If this results in a decoction which
is too stiff to work, or which becomes too thick during boiling, you can
add some liquor directly to the decoction to thin it up a bit.

The third decoction should be thin i.e. you want to carry over little grain
because you don't want to free any more starch (not that there should be
much left to free at this point) which will not be converted upon return
because the enzymes will be inactivated.

The proper size of the decoction depends on the magnitude of the
temperature step, the temperature of the rest mash, the thickness of the
main mash before the decoction is drawn, how much water is added to and
lost from the decoction, how much water is infused into the rest mash for
temperature maintenace, and how much heat is lost during the transfer. In
other words it is pretty hard to compute. If you keep everything the same
from batch to batch except the volume of the decoction you should be able
to zero in on the correct amount pretty quickly. A little under can be made
up with a small boiling water infusion. A little over can be quickly cooled
with cold water and returned.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------

Glyn Crossno (#1760) asked about "minor vines" on his hops plants. I'm not
sure whether he meant additional shoots or the processes which appear at
the axilia of the vines themselves. These latter will bear cones if left to
grow. It is probably a good idea to remove the ones which exit the vines
near the ground for the same reason that the leaves are removed there. If
we are talking about shoots the general wisdom is to cut them off in order
that all the energy of the plant go into the trained vines and to keep the
mess around the hill down. Note that if new shoots are planted vertically
with a couple of nodes below the surface of the soil there is a better than
even chance that they will develop into a new plant.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------

John Shearer (#1760) asks about lautering efficiency. Overall efficiency
should run about 70% (i.e. the weight of the extracted sugar should be
about 70% of the grain used) but this can vary quite a bit. If a lesser
number is obtained it is often hard to figure out exactly what is at fault.
If properly ground malt with good extract and diastatic potentials was
mashed with properly maintained temperature rests and the extract is low it
is probable that the sparge is to blame. I'd guess that the biggest cause
of poor sparge efficiency would be an improper crush. This can be a double
whammy as the conversion is also likely to be effected. After that I would
point the finger at low grain bed temperature and trying to run the sparge
too fast which may result  in a locally compacted grain bed i.e. one
compacted enough to slow the flow in one area of the bed but not enough to
stop the flow completely.

Home brewers don't "run the rakes" as commercial brewers do and I think we
probably lose some extract from that. I'm almost to the point where I cut
down a couple of times as a matter of course for this reason.

Obviously terminating the sparge when the runoff is still fairly dense will
lose extract. This might be a factor where the sparge water is quite
alkaline and the pH rises above 6 quickly (causing the brewer to terminate
collection for fear of tannin extraction) while there is still a fair
amount of extract left in the grain bed.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

In my recent post (#1760) concerning synthesis of water I called calcium
carbonate highly deliquescent when I meant to say calcium chloride. This
should have been obvious since I referred to it as CaCl2 one sentence later
but I mention this in case it wasn't.

A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel at interramp.com



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Date: 20 Jun 95 13:13:00 -0500
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Primary->Secondary/extract efficiency/storing beer

David writes, answering Christopher's questions:
>> 1) Can I just pour the wort through a funnel back into the carboy, or do I
>> have to siphon it?

>Yes
>1) You can do either funnel or siphon. Although Using the funnel will 
>aerate(sp?) your wort. This was a topic of discussion in the HBD 
>awhile back. The pros of aerating a second time is that you will give 
>the yeast a kick and your wort will ferment a bit faster and more 
>complete. The cons being that you have a greater chance of infection.

This can be good or bad advice depending on where in the ferment your
beer is and on which yeast you used.  If there's still quite a bit of
fermentables left, aeration can help the yeast along (especially the very
flocculent yeasts like Samuel Smith's) and will almost certainly create
additional diacetyl which may or may not be appropriate for your style.
If the fermentation is over or almost compleat, aeration at this point
will darken your beer, create aldehydes by oxidizing alcohols and create
papery or wet-cardboard flavours/aromas.  You are right, however, about
the chance of infection being greater if you aerate, but your greatest
risk of infection was back when you were aerating cooled wort -- when
the fermentables were high and the pH had not yet dropped.  The risk
of infection at this point is an order of magnitude less.

>Yes
>2)There is no problem with leaving the beer in the bucket for the 
>secondary fermentation.

I would say no.  The fermentation of fruit often starts out fast, but
then takes a long time to finish.  This long (2 weeks or more) period
of almost-finished beer sitting in a plastic bucket is not a good idea.
Those plastic fermentors are made of HDPE, a plastic well-known for its
oxygen permeability.  As mentioned above, oxidation of alcohols into
aldehydes would be my biggest concern.  Remember how bad frat party beer
tasted the next morning?  That's aldehydes from the air you pumped into
the keg the night before.

>Yes
>3)One can never have too many carboys.

David's absolutely right.  I've got 15 glass fermentors (from 3 gallons
up to 50 liters) and two 20 gallon HDPE fermentors.  Have you ever considered
what you would do if you broke your only carboy at 10pm with a pot of cooled
wort waiting for it?

***
John writes:
>First - Concerning lautering efficiency.  How do I determine it?  What is
>considered good?  If it's bad, what are the common problems?  Is there a
>FAQ?  (I looked, and I didn't see anything in the grain FAQs on this subject.)

You measure the volume of the total runnings, make sure they are mixed well
(without aerating) and then measure the OG.  The easiest figures to use
are points/lb/gallon (ppg) which is just the gallons of runnings multiplied by
the points of gravity (lose the 1 and the decimal point) and then divide
by the total number of pounds of grain you used.  You must take into account
that dark grains and crystal malts give you considerably less ppg than pale,
pils, munich, etc.  If you get above 26 ppg, that's not bad.  If you get
more than 30, rejoice.  If you got considerably lower than 26 ppg, look into
your technique, pH and equipment.
 
>Second - On storing beer in bottles for an extended period (several months).
>I prefer to force carbonate, but I also like keeping my kegs freed up.  If I
>force carbonate and counter pressure fill, how long will the beer last in
>the bottles at room temp / cellar temp / or fridge temp?  (I heard somewhere
>that if you don't 'bottle condition' the beer it won't last as long in the

Unless you filter, they should last as long as bottle-conditioned beers.
There is still enough yeast in there to *help* keep the beer fresh (excessive
aeration during bottling or excessive HSA will overwhelm any amount of yeast).
The higher the alcohol of the beer, the longer it will keep, but at room
temperature, the average beer will probably begin to noticeably degrade after
a month or two.  At cellar temperatures, it should keep for several months.
At fridge temps, an average-strength beer could conceivably keep for a year
if your brewing technique is good.

Al.

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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 10:52:50 +0300
From: diagen at netvision.net.il (Nir Navot)
Subject: Brewing Courses info needed 

I am thinking of taking a course in brewing, one that would help me to
scale up my 10 gallon 3-years old picobrewery into a microbrewery. Did you
have a chance to take such a course? Would you recommend it?  Do you know
where such courses offered, in the US and in Europe? Addresses, telephone
and best -- fax numbers, of relevant institutes would be a great help.




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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 18:25:01 EDT
From: awalsh at pop03.ca.us.ibm.net (Andy Walsh)
Subject: coolers

Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 07:36:09 -0400
From: captain at vulcan.srl.ford.com (Rich Hampo)
Subject: Gott , Igloo, Coleman coolers

Howdy!

Hello.
In HBD 1761 Richard writes:

>I recall discussion sometime back that Gott was the only one
>that was OK for hot stuff too. Is this correct? Anyone have
>good experience with the Igloo or Coleman brands? 

I have been using 2 10 gallon Igloos for the last 2 years for 
mashing and lautering. After 40 or so batches in this time,
both are still in excellent condition, although one is a little
discoloured. Despite the warnings about hot temperatures,
I regard the Igloo as being suitable for brewing purposes.
Then again, I also refrain from pouring boiling water  directly
inside them, which may help.



*****************************
////     Andy Walsh from Sydney
////     awalsh at ibm.net
////     phone 61 2 369 5711
*****************************

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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 10:09:46 -0400
From: Andrew McGowan <AMCGOWAN at WPO.HCC.COM>
Subject:  WYEAST 1084 - PERFORMANCE QUESTIONS

Is 1084 Irish Stout a slow yeast?  The smack pack was 45 days
old and took 36 hours to swell moderately.  Other yeasts I've
used were ready to burst at 20 hrs.  Also, the starters were not
very active when I pitched at 12 hrs ( I usually go 24 but the
smack pack delay messed up my brewing schedule ).  After 48 hrs
in the primary, I had only a micro layer of foam, so I pitched a
dry backup and things are normal 8 hrs. later.  Since this was
the first time I used this yeast, I also made slants.  Due to
the poor performance, I opened one of the slants.  It had much
more pressure than I've ever encountered.  Upon opening, a white
gas with an unpleasant acid like oder formed in the vial. 
Otherwise, the culture appears normal - milky white, round, etc.
Is the gas normal for 1084? The slant batch has been used
successfully prior to this with other strains.  I'm a novice but
careful brewer, so temps, etc. were dead on throughout all of
this.  I also follow David Draper's yeast procedure - which is
excellent IMHO, thanks Dave! - and can be found in the archive
(for you potential yeast farmers!).

TIA for your thoughts and experiences.  Private email is fine.


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Date:     Wed, 21 Jun 95 11:31:03 EDT
From: Steven W. Schultz <swschult at cbda9.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Request for ESB Recipe

Had a Fuller's ESB for the first time last week; it was mighty fine.  If
anyone has an extract-based recipe that comes close to this, please send it
to me.  Thanks in advance.

Steve Schultz

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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 11:56:00 EDT
From: spencer at med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: Christoffel Blond

Robert Lauriston wrote about Christoffel Blond: 
 :        Michael Jackson's Beer Companion has a blurb about the beer in the
 : pilsener section.  "all-malt, firm-bodied, extremely dry, a truly assertive
 ....
 :  Laaglander extract has lots of unfermentables?  That might
 : give the body).  

Nope.  It would give undesirable sweetness.  Note "extremely dry".
You want high attenuation (e.g., low FG); the body more likely comes
from short peptide chains (e.g., degraded proteins).  This sort of
thing is hard to control in an extract beer.  The best you can do is
probably to use a bit of carapils, or mini-mash some wheat malt,
perhaps.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 11:23:58 -0600
From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brian Pickerill)
Subject: RE: Pressure bottling/Gott coolers/alcohol-food grade DME


- ---
Pressure Bottling:

>Has anyone ever heard of/used/owned the Melvico Pressure Bottler?  It's
>a bit expensive (~$300) to consider purchasing blind.  Regular email
>would be fine.

Funny you should ask.  Just yesterday I did a search on Spencer's beer page
for the article about ultra cheap counter flow bottle filling. (a repost by
Roger Deschner in hbd 1667).  I tried it and it seems to work fine.  I had
no problems filling a grolsh bottle with my slightly overcarbonated Muncie
Maerzen.  Since I was just experimenting, I didn't even sanitize the (clean)
bottle first.  Now, I think I may do the rest of the nearly empty keg so I
can use the fridge for fermenting.  I need to brew and I don't think the
evaporative cooling technique will work well enough during this hot spell.

The best part was, I didn't even have to buy anything.  I just used my
racking cane, hose, and a bottle sized stopper.  I'll try the beer tonight
to see how well it kept it's foam, but I think it'll be OK.

- ---
Finding Gott coolers:

>Now a local question: Anyone know where I can find the Gott
>brand cooler in the suburban Detroit area? The local mega-sporting 
>goods store had only the igloo and coleman.

I'd suggest looking in bigger hardware stores--these are not exactly
what the family would use on vacation, but rather, what a work crew
would use for drinking water.  I've seen them around here more often
in larger hardware stores.

- ---
Ray Daniels said in #1760:

>Yes, beer is food--unless of course you consider all the special regulations
>that apply to the manufacture, marketing and consumption of beer that don't
>apply to most foods.  Let's face it, in the U.S., alcohol is treated like a
>drug.  But that is a subject for a different post . . .

Alcohol is a drug.  Also, I'd argue that it's not treated much like a drug at
all.  Take for instance that people often say, "drugs and alcohol" as if
alcohol were not a drug.  Also, it appears sometimes that the beer/liquor
industry is under LESS regulation than the food industry.  Ingredients are
not required to be listed on beer for instance.  More to the topic, I really
don't know but suspect that "food grade" DME would probably be mashed only
for sweetness, not fermentability.  

- --Brian K. Pickerill <00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu> Munice, IN


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1762, 06/22/95