FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: #1(3) Homebrew Digest #1770 (July 01, 1995) (RobHaiber)
  Dry Ice Chilling! (Lee Allison)
  First All-Grain, EM, Mill (Glen Hathaway)
  Start up all grain issues (TPuskar)
  Dublin 1 & 2 (A. J. deLange)
  Healthful Drinking (Ray Daniels)
  hop aroma on the vine, blow off liquid (CGEDEN)
  Amber Ale Recipes ()
  Hopity-freeze (Tim_Fields_at_Relay__Tech__Vienna)
  Leaky chiller - am I screwed? ("Colgan, Brian P.")
  Re Laaglander (Tim_Fields_at_Relay__Tech__Vienna)
  Spokane and Kalispell (Frank J Dobner +1 708 979 5124)
  Proper Sanitation (John DeCarlo              )
  Judgement Day (plus miscellany) (Russell Mast)
  Vinegar (Bruce Conner)
  A. J. deLange's Water Saga (Steve Alexander)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 09:09:52 -0700
From: RobHaiber at eworld.com
Subject: Re: #1(3) Homebrew Digest #1770 (July 01, 1995)

Martin,
Send a message to Daniel Bradford at All About Beer Mag. He is now the
importer of CAMRA's Good Beer Guide (retail $18.99).
You can reach him at AllAbtBeer at eWorld.com. They stock all CAMRA titles,
including the home-brew ones.
There are many good pubs in London. In fact, there's a decent one upstairs in
Victoria Station. I think it is a Greene King pub. Then, you can walk out of
the main Victoria exit (where the buses and taxis stands are, bear off at 11
o'clock toward the big intersection. Cross over and walk along that street
c3-4 blocks to The Albert (tall stone building on a corner). You'll pass the
catholic cathedral on your right (set back from the street). The Albert is
beyond it another block on the opposite side of the street. Then if you cross
back over the street opposite the Albert and go down the back lanes, you'll
find The Cardinal very near the cathedral. It is sort of posh, but friendly.
It is the only pub that has special dispensation from the catholic church to
use that name.
But, if you want a really killer pub, you must go to the White Horse in
Parsons Green, London. Take the District Line (Green) fromVictoria toward
Wimbledon, and get off at PG (c7 stops). Come out of the station (right
exitway), turn right and walk up the inclined street till you come to the
green. You'll come in at the lower right hand corner of it. Look hard left
and you will see it c100ft away. They have the best cask-conditioned ales
there, and excellent food.
The White Horse is a hang-out for many beer scribes (M Jackson, R Protz, et
al) when they are in London, and holding court. It is THE place to check out,
especially during Great British Beer Festival. Should you go in evening or at
weekend, you might very well meet Mark Dorber, the proprietor, a city
barrister during the week. Mention my name to him, as we are friends.

Cheers,
Rob Haiber, Beer & Brewing Central sysop/admin at eWorld.

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Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 09:57:23 -0700
From: grandcru at ix.netcom.com (Lee Allison)
Subject: Dry Ice Chilling!

batches and have run into a problem with chilling that much wort.  Of 
all of the copper tube chillers I decided to use a counterflow, because 
it would chill the quickest (my timings showed that that's the fastest, 
but YMMV.) But the counter flow causes a problem with cold break 
removal.  The wort will have to be left sitting for a couple of hours, 
then racked, and THEN pitched if I want to get most of the cold break 
out.  So how do most of you other counterflow people get rid of the 
cold break?

    On the same thread, a local supermarket has dry ice available. Yep, 
I walked past the sign and thought about the uses IMMEDIATELY! So 
here's the crux: will dropping a couple of blocks of dry ice into the 
hot wort affect the flavor?  And crux part II: how much cooling will 
say a 1 pound block of dry ice give me?  I think that dry ice is either 
mostly or completely CO2, in which case it shouldn't hurt too much.  Of 
course I can always run cooling water over the dry ice first and THEN 
through the chiller. But I think that I might need to put some salt 
into the cooling water first so that it won't freeze.  Hmmm.... Any 
suggestions?


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      "At what point does a computer stop losing value because it's
        obsolete, and start gaining value because it's an antique?
                            'Cuz, I think I'm there!"

                   Lee Allison a.k.a GrandCru at ix.netcom.com
                                San Antonio, Texas
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv


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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 03:19:05 -0400
From: Glen Hathaway <glenh at icebox.iceonline.com>
Subject: First All-Grain, EM, Mill

Hi all... 
 
Just finished cooking up my first ever all-grain beer and I must say it 
was much easier than I thought it would be. If this batch turns out as 
much better than my consistently poor extract brews as I expect it to, 
I'm hooked. Did a single infusion mash with a single decoction - even
though I overshot every temperature target horribly (I'm working on an
electric stove), it seemed to convert well. I hit my target gravity 
exactly where Suds 4.0 said it should be.
 
One of the reasons it went so well was my newly built & installed
"Easymasher". I put a bulkhead fitting in the side of my aluminum
pot (10 gallons?), attached an Easymasher screen to it inside the pot
and a ball valve to it outside. Works super, both for mashing and for
the boil. I use plug hops - with the EM installed, I no longer have to
use hop bags for the hops. One less thing to worry about.
 
If I had bought the EM, I'd be a very satisfied customer. Since I built
my own from scratch, I'm even more satisfied. I recommend it highly.
 
- ---------------------
 
Anyone know street prices for the various grain mills available? My local 
supplier only carries the Corona - they want about $60 Canadian (about 
$43 U.S.) for one. 
 
I live in Vancouver, about 2 hours from Seattle. If the deal is good enough,
I'd drive down, but I'd really rather mail-order. My pickup gets lousy
mileage.
 
Glen Hathaway  --  glenh at iceonline.com
 

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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 09:56:36 -0400
From: TPuskar at aol.com
Subject: Start up all grain issues

I just made the plunge to all grain and I need some help.  I've made two
batches so far--the first was a stout and my recent is a rye beer.  My
problem appears to be low extratction.  I'll spare intimate details and focus
on what I think are major issues.

The stout had a grain bill comprised of:
     7# 2-row
     1 # roasted barley

I grind my own grain and that may be one of the problem.  The crushn looked
OK, though.  I mashed in 14 qts of water and rested at 125F or so and again
at 150-155F.  Mash out was at 170F.  I know one problem is that my sparge
(with appx 5 gallons of water) was far too fast and was done in about 15
minutes.  Total boil was 90 minutes.  My OG turned out to be a very
disappointing 1.032.  I would have expected somewhere between 45-50 on my
first run through.

My second batch (the rye) was a bit better but still disappointing.  The
grain bill was:

     7 #  2-row
     1 # Belgian light
     1 # flaked rye
I added all the grains to about 15 qts of water at 130F.  Rested between
120-125F for 30 minutes and again at 155F for 45 minutes.  The starch rest
was actually at about 162F for the first 10 minutes or so.  Iodine test
showed complete conversion in about 20 minutes.  I sparged with about 4
gallons of 175F water after heating mash to 175F.  This time the sparge took
about 50 minutes.  Gravity of final runnings was 1.009 (with no temp
conversion).  Collected about 6 gallons and boiled for an hour.  Final
gravity was barely 1.040--better than last time but still lower than
expected.

One interesting note, I pitched the rye beer with a pint of a German ale
starter and it took off in about 2 hours.  After 16 hours (overnight) it was
blowing out the airlock.  I attached a blow off tube and this thing is really
going wild!

Any ideas why I'm getting low gravities would be appreciated.  The stout
fermented well and reached a final gravity of 1.009 after a week in the
primary and another week in the secondary.  It tastes good but is really
watery--no mouth feel at all.  I brewed the rye yesterday.

I'll be looking over previous HBD's (really, I promise I will!!!) but was
wondering if anyone has any comments.  I'll provide more details (this is
long enough as it is) if it will help.

Thanks to everyone,
Tom Puskar

P.S. I do everything in a converted keg with a homemade EasyMasher thingy.

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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 10:24:25 -0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Dublin 1 & 2

Dublin 1 and 2

This is the sixth in a series of posts on the formulation
of waters similar to those of famous brewing cities of the world. They
are based on ion concentration profiles given by Dave Draper in
his post in #1704 (10 April 95). See my  post "Water Series" (#1763) for
explanatory material (correction: in the Line 3 explanation read 1.8 ml of
1 N sulfuric acid, not 18 ml). Quick reminders: all ion concentrations and
salt quantities are in ppm which is the same as mg/l. The water to
which the salts are added is assumed to be ION FREE (i.e. it is
DISTILLED WATER or REVERSE OSMOSIS WATER).

The Dublin 1 profile is from the Wahl-Henius "Handy Book" which I don't have
so I can't comment further.

The profile is well balanced so that it is readily formulated at pH 7 using
simple salts. External acid is required to set the pH:

Formulation I

 pH 7.00;   use external acid;  Minimum salts
 n:    890000   Temp:    0.000961   Energy (rms %):    0.075698
 Accepted:     0  Rejected:10000 n_sol:      0 n_0:    16  n_hyd:     0

 Dublin 1        Desired Cations:  6.789   Anions:  6.837 mEq/L Ratio: 1.007
 ION     DESIRED    REALIZED    ERR, %           SALTS            AMOUNT
 Ca      119.000     118.910     -0.08           NaCl             29.388
 Mg        4.000       4.006      0.14           Na2CO3.10H2O      0.000
 Na       12.000      11.992     -0.07           CaCL2             0.000
 K         0.000       0.000      0.00           CaSO4.2H2O       66.700
 CO3     156.000     155.974     -0.02           CaCO3           258.176
 SO4      53.000      53.045      0.08           MgCL2             0.000
 Cl       19.000      19.011      0.06           MgCO3             0.000
 H         3.081       0.033    -98.91           KCl               0.000
                                                 Na2SO4            0.000
                                                 MgSO4.7H2O       40.599
                                                 H2SO4             0.000
                                                 NaHCO3            1.582
                                                 HCl               1.222

 Carbonic:  0.5025   Bicarbonate:  2.0948   Carbonate:  0.001003 mM
 Total Required Hydronium:  3.0809   Sulfuric Hydronium:  0.0000 mEq
 Hydrochloric Hydronium:  0.0335 mEq
 3.0474 mEq additional hydronium required to maintain pH  7.00
 Solubility Products - CaCO3: 8.70E-09   MgCO3: 2.60E-05
 Ion Products        - CaCO3: 2.97E-09   MgCO3: 1.65E-10
 Alkalinity:     2.07 mEq;     103.49 ppm as CaCO3.
 Temporary hardness:      5.20 mEq;    259.83 ppm as CaCO3
 Permanent hardness:      1.07 mEq;     53.33 ppm as CaCO3

This is an excellent synthesis and there is no point in going to more
salts. The synthesis at pH 6.38 is practically identical except that
NaHCO3 is at 1.214mg/L, hydrochloric acid at 0.943 mg/L (.0259 mEq) and
3.857 mEq of external acid are required.

If carbon dioxide is used as the external acid (see Dortmund 2) the pH
at saturation should be about 5.45. Aerating to pH 6.38 would give 474
ppm total carbonate, pH 7 would give 294 and pH 7.4  yields 160 which is
closest to the spec of 156 so we suspect that Dublin water would be at
about this pH. Only in the pH 7.4 case is saturation reached. The amount
of calcium precipitated is insignificant.

Dublin 2 differs from Dublin 1 by 1 ppm in calcium (118) and sulfate
(54) and is otherwise the same except for carbonate which is at twice
the level of Dublin 1 being at 319 ppm. Thus to make water to the
Dublin 2 spec we procede as for Dublin 1 except that we aerate to
pH 6.84 at which pH the total carbonate will be at about 320. Thus, if
this spec is to be believed Dublin water would have a pH of about
6.84.

Why do we have discrepancies like this?  As long as water remains in
the ground the partial pressure of CO2 can be easily maintained. For
the Dublin 2 water a partial pressure of CO2 of 31 mm Hg is sufficient
to maintain the pH at 6.84. When this water leaves the ground the
dissolved CO2 is stays in solution as long as the water is
contained i.e. is in a pipe or a nearly full covered container. As soon
as it is allowed free contact with the air CO2 will escape the pH will
rise and the total carbonate drop with eventual precipitation of some
CaCO3. Is it possible that we have these two specs because two workers
analyzed samples that were exposed to different levels of aeration?

Several people have requested that these posts be collected and put
into the Stanford archives. We will certainly do that but not until
the series is finished at which time we will go back over the lot and
put them together into a coherent package (we are wiser now than when
we started) and place that in the archives, on the web pages, etc.


A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel at interramp.com



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Date: 03 Jul 95 10:19:03 EDT
From: Ray Daniels <71261.705 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Healthful Drinking

No less an authority than the Wall Street Journal has today (July 3) published a
column (Section B, page 1) on the benefits of moderate drinking.

Highlights:

Key point:  "Alcohol -- in moderation -- lowers coronary disease risk."  (Some
35 medical studies support this conclusion.)

Moderation = one to two drinks per day, no binges.  (Some Euro studies put
number higher, but those people drink like fish!)

Why does it work?  "Alcohol gains its place in a healthful lifestyle by virtue
of its apparent power to increase high-density lipoprotein (HDL), which removes
cholesterol from the arteries."

Which beverage is best?  "Despite the aura of wine, there's little data proving
its superiority to beer or distilled spirits."

Does America Drink Enough?

	In 1992, Americans (over age 14) consumed an average of 2.3 gallons of
alcohol.  According to the article, that equals 306 12-ounce cans of beer, or
about 0.8 beers per day per person.  With an upper limit of 2 beers per day for
healthful living, I should expect that we will see a tremendous increase in beer
consumption in coming years.  (grin!)

Ain't this a wonderful country?   Happy Fourth of July to All!  


Ray Daniels

A (mostly) moderate drinker of beer
Free of diagnosed coronary disease
Maintainer of a "moderate" beer gut
Happy, care free and generally a satisfied guy

- ---> Candidate for 1995 "Healthful Benefits of Beer" Poster Guy  <---




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Date:         Mon, 03 Jul 95 10:52:16 EDT
From: CGEDEN at NERVM.NERDC.UFL.EDU
Subject:      hop aroma on the vine, blow off liquid

Rob Lauriston, seeking to identify unknow hop varieties, laments the lack
of hop aroma in his growing cones:  "all you get is the smell of fresh
mowed grass".  Perhaps that is a clue in itself.  I planted nugget and Cascade
hops this year and recently picked a few Cascade cones to check out the
aroma- it was unmistakably a Cascade aroma, albeit with vegetal undertones.
I was also shocked to discover that many of the cones are infested with
fat little green beetle larvae, one to a cone, that are happily eating away
at the cones.  I was expecting aphids and Japanese beetles, but not these.
BTW, isn't it a little early for cone formation?  In contrast, the Nugget
bines are still only about three feet tall and have not produced any flowers.
Oh well, Florida isn't exactly famous as a hop-growing region!

Dion Hollenbeck asks what kind of liquid other folks use for their blow off
termination vessels.  FWIW I've used plain old tap water for the last 12
batches without a problem.  The way I see it, the bacteria have to travel
a very long distance upwind in a toxic atmosphere to reach the wort.  This
seems like a pretty minor risk compared with, say, aerating the fresh wort
with air from the kitchen.

Chris Geden
Gainesville, FL

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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 11:19:39 -0400
From: palmer at be0962.be.ford.com ()
Subject: Amber Ale Recipes


Hello Brewers!

I just made my first-ever batch of homebrew last week (a brown ale) that will
be bottled next weekend.  Really looking forward to the tasting!  Well, I'm
looking for your favorite Amber Ale recipes for my next batch (extract please).
I saw a few in the Catsmeow II that sounded good, but I thought I would ask
the experts here for their favorites.  Thanks in advance for your help.

Gabrielle


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Date: Mon, 03 Jul 95 11:41:50 EST
From: Tim_Fields_at_Relay__Tech__Vienna at relay.com
Subject: Hopity-freeze

While the hop heads are out here discussing the merits of hop form and 
function, I'd like to pose 2 questions:  

1) is freezing better, worse, or samesame as refrigeration for hops (any 
form).
2) will freezing whole hops burst the lupulin glands?

 ...oops - make that 3 questions....

Anyone notice a change in the flavor of Tuppers' Hop Pocket Ale?  Seems to 
me it now has much more hop bitterness, with less of what I perceive as 
"yummy" hop flavor. I [think I] recall reading that the recipe was going to 
be changed...


Tim Fields
Vienna, VA, USA, timf at relay.com



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Date: Mon, 03 Jul 95 12:23:17 EST
From: "Colgan, Brian P." <bcolgan at sungard.com>
Subject: Leaky chiller - am I screwed?

<<< insert standard opening grovel from lurker turned newbie "I'm not 
worthy" etc. etc. >>>

I have a feeling I messed up bad yesterday, but I wonder if anyone out 
there has done the same stupid trick and how it turned out.

I cooked up an extract Weisen yesterday, and I was all excited because I 
would get to try out my new immersion chiller that the kids got me for 
Father's Day. I worked great, wort chilled from 180f to 80f in about 20 
minutes. However, after it was far too late, I noticed that I forgot to 
TIGHTEN THE CONNECTIONS between the plastic hoses and the copper chiller.

You got it - a thin stream of water leaking from my garden hose into the 
wort. About a quart tops in total.

The only plus is that my yeast starter was cookin' and fermentation started 
in my carboy after only about 8 hours.

Should I prepare for the worst, or does this have a chance of not being 
fertilizer?

thanks, private email fine.

brian colgan
bcolgan at sungard.com


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Date: Mon, 03 Jul 95 12:58:11 EST
From: Tim_Fields_at_Relay__Tech__Vienna at relay.com
Subject: Re Laaglander

In #1771, Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu> states re Laaglanders:
>It is a tool which performs extremely well when used properly...

Would you please expand on this? I've not used Laaglanders and would 
appreciate some insight into what it might contribute to my brews.


Tim Fields, Vienna, VA, USA
timf at relay.com





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Date: 3 Jul 95 12:02:00 -0500
From: fjdobner at intgp1.att.com (Frank J Dobner +1 708 979 5124)
Subject: Spokane and Kalispell

CAUTION: Brewpub Request!

I will be traveling through Spokane, Washington and Kaplispell, Montana
next week. Can someone through private e-mail let me know if there
are any brewpubs, good beer bars or microbreweries notable enough
to visit? I certainly appreciate in advance your responses. 

Frank Dobner
Aurora, Illinois

fjdobner at intgp1.att.com

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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 95 14:35:34 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
Subject: Proper Sanitation

Hmmm,

We all (or at least some of us) have probably wondered about the role our 
own bodies play in sanitation.  Should we sanitize our hands and what about 
loose hairs falling in--hair nets?  Your imagination is the limit.

Anyway, due to recent summer-time activities, I believe I have the perfect 
answer:

Sanitize yourself by swimming at least 15 minutes in a chlorinated swimming 
pool!  Then you immediately start brewing!

Plus, this is the perfect add-on to a brewing video!

Have fun!

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 14:09:59 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Judgement Day (plus miscellany)

> From: chemist at io.com (Brian McGovney)
> Subject: Bad chile beer - Diagnosis?
> 
> Opened it on May 25, and it tasted .. pickled?  Vegetal?  Sulfurous?  These
> words all come to mind, in that order.

Sounds like an infection.  Acetic bugs, e. coli, funny yeast, in that order.

>  My sanitary precautions are second to none (my fiance often worrys
> about my mental health re: kitchen anality), and I used bleach water on
> *everything*. 

Hmm...  Any metalic or plastic flavors?  COuld be you didn't rinse well enough.

> Does anyone have any suggestions on how to save this very
> spicy beer, which I would love were it not being overpowered? 

Nothing you can do now but wait and hope.

> From: reved at ix.netcom.com (RevEd - Ed Blonski)
> Subject: Laaglanders malt  

>   So, my question is, what do I do with 12 lbs of this malt?

It's worthless, just send it to me for proper disposal.  (Well, he's into 
Rush Limbaugh, I thought maybe, well...)

> From: dhvanvalkenburg at CCGATE.HAC.COM
> Subject: Sam Piper's rebuttal on Styles & Judging

>      But not Homebrewers!  We can go where they cannot...

Hear, hear.

> , and we do, but I 
>      don't think that our contests, our judge training, and our style 
>      definitions address these unique qualities of our hobby. 

I tend to agree, but I don't think there's a whole lot that can be done 
about that.  That is, I think any organized judging will fall miserably short
of addressing these unique qualities.

> Even more important, 
>      integrate into judge training an expectation for judges that they be 
>      flexible and able to tell a flaw from a successful variation. 

Not only is this difficult, but I think this is the main roadblock.  Shifting 
categories around and changing criteria is all fine and well, but when you 
get right down to it, one man's trash is another man's garbage.  (No, wait,
that's not it...)  

What I mean is that you get into a realm of unbridled subjectivity almost as
soon as you leave the gate.  Sure, maybe you mean for your beer to taste that
way, but if I'm judging it and I dislike it, you'll lose points from me.

Think of it this way.  Stouts and Weizens are two very different styles, both
with very different expectations.  I know many people who greatly prefer one
to the other.  (Myself, it depends on mood, but there are times where I relish
one and am passive to the other.)  Imagine if you will (bear with me) that 
neither of these styles exists today, and some enterprising homebrewer were to
create one of these styles in a more open judging scenario.  If that homebrewer
creates the perfect Weizen, and is able to explain the effect he was aiming for,
then his score hinges on whether or not the judge happens to be in a weizen 
mood that day (or ever).  If so, a style is born, or at least someone wins best 
in show for a well made beer.  If not, it's chalked up to a fault (even if the
brewer explained what they intended) and they go more or less unrecognized.

> [No, that's not easy, and my arguments have never been designed to create a 
>      cop-out but to honor the hobby. ] 

I assert that it's impossible.  I brewed a stout that happened to get a lacto
infection early enough (and before yeast pitching) that I was able to rescue
it and name it a sour-mash stout.  It was damned weird, granted.  And several
people I knew couldn't stand the stuff.  But, I know several people who can't
stand certain 'standard' styles of beer.  A couple friends of mine, and myself,
frankly liked the stuff.  I've honestly considered brewing it again, only with
a shorter, more controlled latic phase.  Just for shits and grins, I entered
it into a competetion.  Obviously, it's no ordinary stout, so i put it into a
specialty category.  It got thoroughly panned as being infected.  Sure, these 
judges weren't sensitive at all to whether that infection was a successful 
variation or a flaw.  I say that no amount of training would make this happen.

I don't mean to claim I've invented a great new style of beer to rival weizen.
However, I did brew something creative, which contained what *I* would call a
successful variation, but which someone else would call a flaw.  ("completely 
undrinkable" was one judges comment).  I am not trying to cop-out for a bad 
batch.  Every bottle from that batch was finished (except the one Jake couldn't
get through) and I have had batches bad enough to dump. 

Just as I think it's unfair for someone to tell me that this batch was not a 
successful variation, I think it's also unfair for me to ask someone else, 
Jake or those judges or anyone else, to appreciate my variation.  If you don't
like a given style, whether it be recognized or not, you shouldn't be asked to
enjoy or appreciate it.  

>      Finally one last thought.  Is Jazz musical anarchy?  Many would argue 
>      that it is.  

I don't know much about Jazz, but if it _is_ musical anarchy, is it appropriate
to rate it on a 50-point scale?  If I'm playing my viola in a jazz band (it's
been rumoured to have happened) and you think it's total cacaphony and the guy
next to you thinks it's downright brilliant, well, I don't think either one of
you should be allowed to call the other's taste invalid.  (Actually, this whole
scenario has taken place, although our fans didn't go as far as "absolutely 
brilliant", I think "pretty cool" was about the best review we got.)

 -R

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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 16:37:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bruce Conner <BConner at max.tiac.net>
Subject: Vinegar 

I've been watching the discussion of vinegar with some interest and it 
suddenly occured to me that a lot of vinegar is made not by beasts at 
all, but by synthesis from petrolium products.  Of course, this would 
pretty well preclude any of the nasties being in there.  Then  again, they 
could set up hosekeeping if they like that kind of environment...

Hope this doesn't muddy the water too much!  


Bruce Conner
BConner at max.tiac.net


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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 18:57:43 -0400
From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Subject: A. J. deLange's Water Saga


As a recent subscriber apologies if this has already been covered but:

>1 N sulfuric acid, not 18 ml). Quick reminders: all ion concentrations and
>salt quantities are in ppm which is the same as mg/l. The water to
>which the salts are added is assumed to be ION FREE (i.e. it is
>DISTILLED WATER or REVERSE OSMOSIS WATER).

Reverse Osmosis water is NOT ion free like distilled water.  Water
from a Reverse Osmosis filter only reduces the ion concentration and
the efficiency is inversely related to the ion concentration of the
source.  My (weak) understanding is that at a given pressure
differential you are limited to a fixed ion concentration gradient across
the membrane.  Some of the figures I saw in a brochure for a
commercial RO unit indicated that ion concentrations of 20-35% of the
original levels would appear in the resultant water at certain
(high) original concentration, for certain ions.  The 'typical' case
was much better at 90%-95% ion removal - and many ions were virtually
eliminated.

p.s. The water articles are great

Steve Alexander
stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1772, 07/04/95