FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Temperature calculations (John Girard)
  Big Three ("William D. Knudson")
  Another source of Scientific Equipement (Stephen_W._Snyder)
  Opnions - lead - questions (claytonj)
  infusion calcs/ ("Wallinger, W. A.")
  Scotch Ale recipe (ALEJANDRO MIDENCE)
  COUNTER PRESSURE BOTTLING WITH NITROGEN/CO2 MIX (SKOTRAT)
  Yeast question (Brian Yankee)
  Sanitary Regulators and CAMARA ("James Hojel")
  RE: Corny keg problem (too much foam) (Brian Pickerill)
  archive admin info needed (chris campanelli)
  Re: Home Brew Technique... (John DeCarlo              )
  Soda recipes ("Harralson, Kirk")
  Electric Stove Performance ("Harralson, Kirk")
  Chlorine in America (Rob Reed)
  Re: Home Brew Technique... (Jeff Benjamin)
  hardness test strips, dioxin ("Tracy Aquilla")
  Mashout Procedure in a Picnic Cooler Mash Tun (hadleyse)
  Micro- brewery Term Misuse (wyatt)
  hops in trub ("Goodale, Daniel CPT 2AD DISCOM")
  kegging, bottling and foaming (Neal Christensen)
  AB KEGS WITH PLASTIC ENDS (rbarnes)
  Beer Carpentry 101 (cdevrie)
  test strips for hardness (Steve Alexander)
  Re:  Binford ToxiTherm 4000 (GREGORY KING)
  sugars (Jay Weissler)
  Re: Bleach (Tim Lacy)
  Re: Blue Green Carboys (Richard Gardner)
  Re: bleach (GREGORY KING)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 09:25:09 -0800 (PST)
From: John Girard <jungle at hollywood.cinenet.net>
Subject: Temperature calculations

Brian Dulisse asks about temperature calculations for strike water temps and 
additional infusions.

Well, a couple of weeks ago, my homebrew buddy and I sought out to figure 
out (approximately) what equations SUDS uses so that we could set up a 
spreadsheet or program that allowed for multiple infusions (which SUDS 
currently doesn't, but may soon).  Since we had good results with SUDS, 
it seemed like the equations from it would be a good place to start.  
Here's what we came up with, which seemed to match SUDS predicitons exactly:

Strike temperature:
- -------------------
Ts = (Tf - Tg) (((4M/P)+.19) P/V) + Tf

Ts = Stike water temperature
Tf = Final desired temperature
Tg = Starting temperature of grain
M = Thermal mass of the vessel (depends on the mash tun.  Start with .15 
    and adjust according to experimental results)
P = Pounds of grain
V = volume of strike water (so that P/V = pounds per quart, or the 
    inverse of the standard water to grain ratio of qts/pound)

Additional infusions:
- ---------------------
     (((4M/P)+.19)P + Vm) (Tf - Tm)
Vi = ------------------------------
               (Ti - Tf)

Same as above, with the addition of:
Vi = Volume of infusion water to add
Vm = Volume of H2O already in the mash
Ti = Temperature of infusion water (212, if boiling at sea level)
Tm = Temperature of mash before infusion~

Didn't spend the time to come up with units, but these seem to work as 
long as the units are consistent and might work in metric (only tested with 
qts, pounds and F, not liters, grams, and C -- the .19 constant might be 
different). Maybe someone could check these (my notes are a little hard 
to read).

Also, now I can get around to asking a question I meant to pose a while 
ago.  Anyone have any idea how to write an algorithm that would do the 
following:

Calculate the volume and temperature of strike water such that the next 
infusion of boiling water would raise the temperature and water/grain 
ratio to a desired level?  e.g., I want to determine the strike water to 
add to 10 #s grain to raise the temp to 105, such that on raising it to 
140 with an infusion of boiling water, I achieve 1.0 qts/pound.  I assume it 
would have to be an iterative approach, but may be wrong...

Thanks,
John Girard
(new address, BTW: jungle at hollywood.cinenet.net)

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Date: 08 Nov 95 13:17:37 EST
From: "William D. Knudson" <71764.203 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Big Three

Al K says "...you mentioned Bavaria and their big Breweries, Yes but it's
*their* big breweries not ours that have blandified....."  My point exactly this
is a world wide phonemon.  The post Prohibition changes to American beer is a
little more compicated than, 'the biggies suddenly got cost concious'.

Have you noticed that American tastes are bland? Examples: Coffee, Beer,
Cigarettes, etc.  Did the coffee companies of the US somehow force us to prefer
(at least historically) watered down coffee, while the rest of the world had the
real thing.  Couldn't that have been remedied right there in the kitchen?

Al also states that "I think they have been leading our tastes."  Typically
American, Al, blame it on someone else.  Our vote is when you and I open the
door and grab a beer, and fork over the sheckles at the counter for the
selection.  Isn't that it?  (or say screw it, I'll have a homebrew instead) 

AB's dismal attempt at marketing a Bavarian style Weissbier was a total flop!
But the beer really was an honest attempt IMHO.  I think that helps support my
assertion that the American beer drinking public is not dupped, they drink what
they choose: watered down swill.

There's an inference here that 'concerns over money' are *unique* to the
biggies.  Let me suggest this is a luxury unique only to us homebrewers.
Ingredient costs are just not a great concern with my homebrew operation.
However, *all* comercial brewerys had better be concerned about costs, or
perish.  If a cost cutting measure by a brewery impacts the beer in an adverse
way, don't buy it.  Anyone out there notice that Sam Adams has been dicking
around with the Boston Lager since inception?  I used to drink Lowenbrau when it
was imported in the mid-70's.  I'm still pissed off at Miller for what they did!
I don't buy it!

By the way the AB saaz order cancellation and screwing Pete's advertising
relationship: this is the essense of corporate scuz.  Sole justification for a
boycott.

One of the biggies, biggest impediments to producing fine micobrews is that they
try to do it in the big brewhouse with all the others.  Not only are they multi
yeast intolerant, but the mega minds that walk the halls just aren't that
flexable.  Their only chance to succeed at 'microbrew' is to do it as autonymous
from the big operation as possible.

My prediction for the beer for the US is as follows:  

1. Biggies will continue to sell more swill than anything else (I could care
less)
2. Biggies will continue to buy out successful micros.
3. Some Micros will fail :-(
4. New micros will start up with new ideas (yes there is life after 1056 and
fruit!)
5. In spite of the the biggies cost controlling zeal, I'll still homebrew.

Bill

Ja ja, hore jezt zu, glaube mir spateren, aber ich muss noch ein hausgebrautes
Bier trinken.


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Date: 08 Nov 95 12:13:06 EST
From: <Stephen_W._Snyder at metcapw1.ccmail.compuserve.com>
Subject: Another source of Scientific Equipement

FWIW, I thought I'd pass along a good source of scientific equipment 
for the homebrewer. The company is called Fungi Perfecti, (206) 
426-9292 in Olympia, WA. This is a large operation that supplies 
mushroom growers around the world. Since culturing yeast is very 
similar to culturing fungi, the equipment selection is ideally suited 
to the homebrewer. They have everything from Petri dishes, Agar,
scales, laminar hoods, and even Walk-In Autoclaves!!! They claim to 
have some of the lowest prices on autoclaves in the country. Just 
looking through the catalog I'd say that most prices are in line with 
what I've seen elsewhere. Check them out...

(Standard disclaimers, no affiliation)

Steve Snyder


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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 13:44:08 -0500
From: claytonj at cc.tacom.army.mil
Subject: Opnions - lead - questions

     Howdy folks,
     
     "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu> in one article says:
     > ... I doubt if it's wise (or responsible) to post unsubstantiated 
     >claims like this to r.c.b or the digest (or to spread rumors
     >by repeating hearsay). Publicly questioning the quality of their 
     >products and/or their sense of business ethics probably won't solve 
     >your problem, but it is likely to land you in court!
     
     Then in another article says:
     >... I actually tested the three 'most popular' brands at the time: 
     >Glatt, Phills, and the MaltMill. I think the others are basically 
     >junk compared to the MaltMill. Maybe there's a reason Glatt went 
     >belly-up?
     
     Isn't that a contradiction in the same digest? ;-)  If I remember 
     correctly (must be the lead in my carboys... see next question) the 
     Wyeast thread started by someone saying he had unexpected results from 
     a batch using 1056.  Others said they also had unexpected results as 
     well but I don't recall anyone saying Wyeast was knowingly selling bad 
     1056 yeast.  I had a similar problem using said yeast in August, 
     darker than expected and some off flavors from a known recipe, but I 
     attributed it to unusually high ferment temp, upper 70's, and two 
     boilovers, DOH!  Maybe it was the yeast :-).  
     
     I appreciate the information, opinions, etc. of the other brewers in 
     the digest and would hate to see anyone feel inhibited from posting 
     problems they are having for fear of retribution by the various 
     vendors of brewing products (not that it would actually happen).  Its 
     a kinder and gentler HBD from a few years ago so don't be afraid to 
     stick your neck out and share your opnions and findings.  I won't tell 
     anyone.
     
     <<>>
     
     dmccull at alabama.com (Douglas A. McCullough) writes:
     > The carboys, manufactured in Mexico and offered for sale for about 
     >$12 at  locally at Waccamaw, have a pronounced blue-green tint. He 
     >suggests that the tint indictes a lead content so high that beer, 
     >leaching it out, would contain unacceptable lead levels.
     
     I have some Mexican carboys purchased a couple years ago and was 
     wondering if anyone knows how I can test for lead?
     
     <<>>
     
     I use Irish moss in my beers to coagulate the proteins and help in 
     break formation.  I then have been using the shake the carboy method 
     of aeration  I still have a chill haze, not really a problem but, an 
     issue with my beers.  Does this shaking method of aeration decoagulate 
     (is that even a word?) the proteins thus leading to chill haze or is 
     it caused by my usual practice of steeping specialty grains for 20 - 
     30 min in 150 degF water?
     
     I'm almost ready to go all grain in my new Gott mash tun with a 
     slotted copper manifold.  I was wondering if the Gott mashers out 
     there add the grain to the hot water or add the water to the grain?
     
     Please send any private responses to ak753 at detroit.freenet.org.
     
     Cheers,
     
     Joe Clayton
     Farmington Hills, Michigan  USA
     (ak753 at detroit.freenet.org  claytonj at cc.tacom.army.mil)
     

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Date: 08 Nov 1995 10:45:10 PST
From: "Wallinger, W. A." <WAWA at chevron.com>
Subject: infusion calcs/


From: Wallinger, W. A. (Wade)
To:  OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR
Subject:  infusion calcs/
Date: 1995-11-08 12:33
Priority:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


brian asks:
> is there a formula for calculating the volume/temperature of infusions?

I just devised these recently for including in a record-keeping spreadsheet.
The equation is:

(Vw1*8.34*Cw)(Tw - Tf) = (Wg*Cg + Vw2*8.34*Cw)*(Tf - Ti)

where:
Vw1 is gallons of water used to raise the mash temperature
Cw is the heat capacity of water, which equals 1 Btu/lb/degF
Tw is temp in degF of water used to raise the mash temp
Tf is temp in degF that you are shooting for
Wg is lbs of grain in the mash
Cg is heat capacity of grain, which I assume to be 0.65 Btu/lb/degF
Vw2 is gallons of water that has already been added to the mash
Ti is temp in degF of the mash tun contents

Given the volume of water you intend to add, calculate the temp you need:
Tw = Tf + [(Wg*0.65 + Vw2*8.34)/(Vw1*8.34) * (Tf - Ti)!

Given the temp of water you intend to use, calculate the volume you need:
Vw1 = (Wg*0.65 + Vw2*8.34)/8.34 * (Tf - Ti)/(Tw - Tf)

I hope this helps!

Calvin surmises:
> What about a batch lagering with a lot of head
> space during a hurricane, followed the next day by a a strong high
> pressure system?

I had to worry about hurricanes twice this year. You are right - suck back
was the least of my worries. The biggest worry I had was how I could
convince my wife to make room for three kegs of beer in the van if
we had to evacuate.

Finally, we have a new Legislature in Mississippi today. Perhaps THIS
bunch will see their way clear to legalizing my leisure activities.

Cheers,
Wade Wallinger, brewing contraband on the Mississippi Gulf Coast


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Date: Sat, 04 Nov 95 18:14:00 -0600
From: alejandro.midence at ssanctum.com (ALEJANDRO MIDENCE)
Subject: Scotch Ale recipe

Hi, all, I've got something of a prob.  You see, I was reading greg's
book on Scottish Ales and I found a recipe which I found kinda doubtful.
 IF any've got the book, have a llook see at pages 115, 116.

I'm wondering if anyone has brewed a similar recipe to this:

Ibu = 25-30
og: 1.075
fg: 1.016-1.020

Inggredients for five gal:

10.3 lbs amber malt extract syrup
1/2 lb carapils
1-1/3 *oz.* roasted barley (?)
your choice of hops at 7.5 hbu
Scottish Ale yeast (1 qt starter)

rec2 wee heavy

Ibu = 30
og: 1.090-1.100
fg: 1.020-1.025

Ingredients for five gal:

13.3 lbs malt extract syrup (?) (wow!!!!)
1 lb carapils
1 1/3 ox. roast barley (?)
your choice of hopps at 8 hbu
scottish ale yeast at (1 qt starter


My questin is:

Shouldn't there be more hops?  Lord, that's a sweet brew, both of them.


For those that have stuck with me, here's a (proven) rec for the winter
months.

Alex's scottish ale

8 lbs munton's amber malt extract syrup
2/3 lb crystal
1/3 lb roasted barley
2 oz. east Kent Goldings  (10.6 hbu)
1 oz. goldings ten minutes
Scottish Ale Yeast
3/4 c dextros priming
og: forgot to check
Fg: they drank it too fast to check

Enjoy!!

Alex

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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 95 20:46 CST
From: SKOTRAT at miso.wwa.com
Subject: COUNTER PRESSURE BOTTLING WITH NITROGEN/CO2 MIX

OKAY, HERE IS A HARD ONE TO ANSWER (I THINK).

I HAVE BEEN COUNTER PRESSURE BOTTLING FOR ABOUT 4-5 YEARS USING CO2. I RECENTLY 
PICKED UP A GUINNESS MIX (70% NITROGEN/30% CO2) TANK.

MY QUESTION IS, CAN I BOTTLE WITH THIS GUINNESS MIX, OR DO I HAVE TO USE IT 
PURELY FOR MY TAP?

CAN A RETURNABLE BOTTLE DEAL WITH THE NITROGEN OR NOT?

ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

THANKS IN ADVANCE,

SCOTT ABENE <skotrat at miso.wwa.com> 

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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:33:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Brian Yankee <byankee at husc.harvard.edu>
Subject: Yeast question

Has anybody tried Yeastlab #09 English Ale yeast? I just bought some, but 
I can't find any info on this strain (i.e. attenuation, flavor profile, 
origin, etc.). Any comments would be appreciated.

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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 95 13:50:50 UT
From: "James Hojel" <JTroy at msn.com>
Subject: Sanitary Regulators and CAMARA

I have a very simple question: how do I sanitize my CO2 regulator?  I use 
Star-San as a sanitizer.  I inherited a regulator that looks very old and 
used.  What's growing inside?  I also don't want to spray any liquid into it 
in fear of messing something up!!  When it comes to trying to be sanitary, 
I'm one of those people who belongs to the anal club (at times I've lost 
sleep over fears of contamination).  I also heard that there are some 
organisims that thrive in a CO2 environment.  Any suggestions?

In addition, does anyone have a list of web pages that deal with CAMARA or 
REAL ALE ?

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Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by BSUVC.bsu.edu
From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brian Pickerill)
Subject: RE: Corny keg problem (too much foam)

Will Hale (WILLHALE at delphi.com) said:
>    As a brand new kegger, I have found a problem with pouring, that is all I
>pour is
>foam.

Try this.  Press down on the gas-in poppet with a screwdriver and let out
all the pressure.  Let off and pick up the keg.  Shake it up, which should
let the co2 out of solution and create pressure in the keg, just like
shaking a pop bottle.  Try pouring a bit more. If it comes out too fast,
try letting off some more pressure and pour again.  If it's still too
foamy, repeat.  It's difficult to get your kegging procedures down, but it
sounds like you just overpressurized for your system.  It's true that
different diameters and lengths of hose affect the ideal pressure for
delivery--in fact there are so many variables that you IMHO are best off
experimenting 'till you find something that works.

I usually force carb at about 35 psi, but often get too much pressure/foam.
It's easy to let off a bit.  Of course, you can shake the keg under c02
pressure to shake c02 INTO solution as well.

- --Brian Pickerill,  Muncie, IN



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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 95 08:32 CST
From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
Subject: archive admin info needed

I need the name and email address of the person responsible for the hbd
archives.  TIA

chris campanelli
akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us

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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 95 10:05:08 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Home Brew Technique...

aesoph%ncemt.ctc.com at ctcga.ctc.com (Aesoph, Michael) writes:

>Throughout my short career, I have NEVER taken a
>temperature, specific gravity reading or virtually any other measurement
>imaginable.  Every batch turns out just as well as any homebrew I've ever
>had.
 ...
>"Why bother with all those measurements, if they aren't absolutely
>necessary?"  Any comments????

Well, here are a few comments <g>:

1) People have made good beer long before there were thermometers or 
hydrometers.  There were approximations (an egg floats at a certain level, 
or it is warmer than body temperature or boiling hot, etc.) that were used.

2) Why bother, then?
        a) It can improve your consistency.  You are more able to reproduce
           a brew if you write down what you do and make all the 
           measurements you can (weigh ingredients, measure volumes, etc.)
        b) It can detect problems.  If your S.G. is 1.035 when you bottle,
           something went wrong.  You may not ever encounter such a problem,
           or it may happen to you next week.  Hard to tell in advance.
           This is sort of like covering your speedometer with tape.  You
           may never speed, and when you do speed, you might not get caught.
           OTOH, you don't have the information you might need.
        c) It can improve your beer.  "Just as good" is fine for many 
           people, but others, probably way over-represented on this list,
           like the "just a little better" approach.  Often times, this
           requires measurements.  Pitching your yeast at 70F instead of 90F
           *does* (in my experience) improve the taste of your beer.

In conclusion, everyone should do what they feel like.  If you are happy 
with what you are doing, fine.  Some people don't need to sanitize anything 
and manage to get by without nasty contaminations.  Results matter.

However, most of the advice *I* give people is intended to make them do a 
little more work, but have better, more consistent results.  Some of what 
they do may be unnecessary and they can skip some steps after awhile (their 
well water doesn't need boiling, for example.  Others with tap water may 
need to boil only during the summer when there is *lots* more chlorine, 
etc.).  But in my experience, people who brew *bad* batches are more 
discouraged than people who spend extra time doing things that *may* be 
unnecessary *today*.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 95 11:01:32 EST
From: "Harralson, Kirk" <kwh at roadnet.ups.com>
Subject: Soda recipes

     I know this has been asked a bazillion times, but does anyone have any 
     truly outstanding recipes for making soda?  I have seen references to 
     a "Root Beef Faq", but can't seem to find it.  I just got the last 
     part of my kegging setup, and want to practice on something other than 
     my homebrew.  I know I've seen recipes in past digests, but I didn't 
     save them, and I couldn't locate them with searches.
     
     Thanks in Advance,
     Kirk Harralson
     Bel Air, Maryland


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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 95 11:15:03 EST
From: "Harralson, Kirk" <kwh at roadnet.ups.com>
Subject: Electric Stove Performance

     Bringing 6+ gallons to boil on an electric stove is a true exercise in 
     patience.  I was told that I could generate much more heat if I 
     covered the bowl under the burner with aluminum foil, shiny side up.  
     This makes some sense to me, but I wonder how much it would help.  Has 
     anybody tried this?
     
     The same person told me I should be very careful not to overheat thin 
     metal pots containing liquid on an electric stove.  According to him, 
     people have been boiling crabs hard enough to create holes in the 
     bottom of the pot, leak water down to the connection and short out the 
     220 element, and spray boiling hot water over the kitchen.  I can't 
     see this happening to stainless, but it sure made me wonder about my 
     33qt EOS kettle.  Has anybody heard of this before?
     
     Kirk Harralson
     Bel Air, Maryland


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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 11:38:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Reed <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: Chlorine in America

Jay LaBonte - email through beernut at xmission.com writes:

> If my Environmental Conservation courses and my memory serve me
> correctly chlorine reacts with organic compounds in nature to form
> organochlorines like Dioxin - you know Dioxin?  That nasty cancer
> causing stuff that has been the scourge of EPA Superfund sites for
> years now. <snip>
>  How do you think the
> environment got to the point where it is now?  Years and years of
> dumping things down the drain, that's how!

If you have any scientific data on this, I'd be very interested.  As
you're aware, chlorine is in widespread use in the United States and I'm
sure anyone who uses chlorine - that includes all of us who drink
chlorinated water - would be interested in potential problems 
surrounding the use of chlorine.  

I don't understand if the use of chlorine results in the formation of 
hazardous chemicals as you say, why hasn't the mainstream media brought 
it to our attention and why aren't swimming pool chemicals containing 
chlorine, sodium hypochlorite, and chlorine containing drinking water 
under investigation by the EPA?  Can you elucidate us?

Cheers,

Rob Reed

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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 95 10:35:47 MST
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Home Brew Technique...

> Throughout my short career, I have NEVER taken a temperature, specific
> gravity reading or virtually any other measurement imaginable.  Every
> batch turns out just as well as any homebrew I've ever had.  My question
> is then, "Why bother with all those measurements, if they aren't
> absolutely necessary?"  Any comments????

In a word:  consistency.  Do you at least write down the ingredients
you use?  That's a start, but to make sure you can duplicate that
extra-good batch again, it's imperative to know all the variables.

Small variables can change a beer greatly.  Perhaps the batch of malt
gave you a lower extraction, or the mineral content or pH of your water
changes seasonally, or your yeast isn't being quite as attenuative...
you won't know unless you measure gravity or pH.  Unless you measure
temperature, you won't be able to duplicate that mash schedule that gave
you just the right body, and a few degrees difference in fermentation
temp can make a big difference in ester production.

Sure, you can make a great batch of homebrew without taking any
measurements, but it won't be as easy to make that great beer a second
time.

- --
Jeff Benjamin                      benji at fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Think!  It ain't illegal yet."  -- George Clinton

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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 95 12:45:34 CST
From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
Subject: hardness test strips, dioxin

In Digest #1879:
Robert Marshall <robertjm at hooked.net> says:
>In the Williams' Brewing Catalog they have a test strip advertised 
>for testing water hardness. I have never seen this before and was 
>wondering if anyone out there has ever used this themselves??

I've never used the product you mention, but I have tried something similar.
I have AquaCheck-5, which is a 5-in-1 test strip that measures total
chlorine, free chlorine, total hardness, total alkalinity, and pH. These
strips work quite well and I've been able to confirm some of these tests
using other means. They aren't reusable and I paid about $8 for 100 strips.
I occasionally use them to monitor the water I use for brewing. Since my tap
water comes from a natural spring, the quality frequently changes. I
generally use deionized water for brewing, but the strips are handy for
those times when I need them. I expect the bottle to last me for a few
years. I think they're great for homebrewers; they provide most of the
relevant water quality tests within a few seconds. I have the information on
where to get them at home; if anyone is interested, email me and I'll post
the info.

and Mark B. Alston <mark at beernut.com> says:
>In respones to Tim Fields query in HBD # 1876 re: "bleaching mother
>nature" 
>I'm not a chemist and I don't have a source for this but....
>If my Environmental Conservation courses and my memory serve me
>correctly chlorine reacts with organic compounds in nature to form
>organochlorines like Dioxin - you know Dioxin?  That nasty cancer
>causing stuff that has been the scourge of EPA Superfund sites for
>years now.  As far as I know this is generally accepted as the truth
>by everyone except G. Gordon Liddy and some of his listeners. 
>Whomever it was who suggested that bleach can't be bad because people
>have been using it for years is silly.  How do you think the
>environment got to the point where it is now?  Years and years of
>dumping things down the drain, that's how!

The environmental/health effects of dioxin itself are still being debated by
scientists. That it causes cancer in humans is definitely not "generally
accepted as the truth". Fairly recently, many other chlorine-containing
organic compounds (including PCBs) have been lumped together into a group
called "dioxin-like" compounds, often referred to as dioxins, causing mass
confusion about what dioxin really is. Recent estimates of the world-wide
production of dioxin are about 35 pounds per year. Many of the ill effects
attributed to dioxin may actually be due to other compounds, which may or
may not be related structurally. The rate of formation of dioxin is
relatively low at ambient temperatures, and in any case, hypochlorite (i.e.
bleach) is volatile, so I don't think household bleach is a major
environmental problem. If it were proven to be so bad, it probably wouldn't
be available in the stores. If anyone wants more details, I have some
information I can send via email.
    Tracy in Vermont
    aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu

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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 95 12:50:28 EST
From: hadleyse at pweh.com
Subject: Mashout Procedure in a Picnic Cooler Mash Tun

I recently built a combination mash/lauter tun out of a 48 qt
rectangular picnic cooler with a slotted copper manifold as part of my
10 gal set up.  I've done 2 pale ales in it so far and have performed
the mash out by adding boiling water to the mash prior to recirculation
and draining/sparging.  This technique reduces the amount of sparge
water I can run over the grain bed and reduces my extract efficiency.  I
had some other ideas for how to perform the mashout that may help raise
my extract efficiency:

1.)  Drain some amount of sweet wort from the mash, bring it up to a
boil and return to the mash tun.

2.)  Drain the mash and add some amount of boiling water to the mash
prior to sparging.

Any comments or suggestions for alternate procedures would be much
appreciated.

Scott Hadley   Hartford, CT

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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 95 10:12:00 pst
From: wyatt at Latitude.COM
Subject: Micro- brewery Term Misuse

     
     
     As a number of people have alluded in recent HBD issues, it seems 
     apparent that the term Microbrewery is often misused.  Samual Adams 
     still uses the term even though they don't even make their own beer 
     anymore.  I just want to point out that there are many so called 
     microbreweries that use the same practices.  Pete of Pete's Wicked has 
     admitted that they have been using contract breweries almost since the 
     begining and have gone through several.  All that really exists of 
     these companies is a marketing, accounting, executive and possibly 
     distrubution staff although some of these are contracted out.  I 
     suppose they monitor the quality of what they market but I wonder 
     about even that.  
     
     It is a shame that the craft brewing market waters have to be muddied 
     by such deliberate marketing misinformation, however this seems to be 
     the case with all giant businesses.  Advertising seems to contain way 
     too many blatent lies and truth in advertising is a joke.  As far as I 
     know there is no legal definition of the term "microbrewery" and 
     anyone can use it.  I think it would be silly for A/B or Miller to use 
     the term but I wouldn't be suprised if they did.  
     
     I think the real crime happens when organizations like S/A use their 
     success to stomp on the real craft brewers though legal channels.  
     Even though the action is not usually sucessful, the real objective is 
     achieved by draining these craft brewers of critical capital needed to 
     keep their businesses going.  I don't know about you but I consider 
     this unethical.  I think we have to realize that the only way to 
     combat these actions is not to give them our money.  I never buy or 
     drink S/A partly because of the previously mentioned reasons and 
     because I don't consider it that good anyway.  I was tempted to try 
     the Triple Bock (even though it isn't a real bock,  brewed with ale 
     yeast and I really don't think maple syrup passes the German purity 
     laws) but didn't.  
     
     Personally I don't think just misusing the term microbrewery justifies 
     a boycott, but the deception makes me take another look at what else 
     they are doing.  I just don't like it when big business (or ex-micro's 
     turned Megabreweries) uses a grassroots back to basics movement like 
     craft brewing to deceptivly market the same old crap for maximum 
     profit.  Still, the fact that they are trying to create the perception 
     that they are craft brewers suggests that they even realize that some 
     change in that direction is inevitible, definitly a good thing.  
     
     By the way, I don't mean to slam Pete's Wicked.  They have a right to 
     market their beer even though I don't consider them to be a brewer 
     much less a microbrewery.  I have met Pete and found him to be a 
     basicly honest guy, I just used them as an example.  
     


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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 95 10:11:00 PST
From: "Goodale, Daniel CPT 2AD DISCOM" <GoodaleD at hood-03.army.mil>
Subject: hops in trub


dear collective,

     While at my local homebrew shop, I was talking to
the owner (the fat guy with the bad teeth; you know the type).
He said that some of his customers complain about their
beer being too bitter.  He attributes this to hops in the trub
continuing to bitter the beer if they are allowed in the primary
fermenter.  I am way too lazy to filter that stuff out, so all the
break goes into my primary.  My finished beer dosn't taste
too bitter (perhaps i've just grown accustomed to it or my
taste buds have been burned out?).  Anywho, is this true
or a homebrew legend???????

               Daniel W. Goodale
               goodaled at hood-03.army.mil

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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 11:50:40 -0700
From: nealc at selway.umt.edu (Neal Christensen)
Subject: kegging, bottling and foaming

Nigel Townsend responded to Dan Fitzgerald regarding filling bottles and
kegs.  I do use your suggested method Nigel, but I don't prime my beer.  I
use corny kegs as fermentors and close them off for the secondary - thereby
carbonating them (But even if I did prime, I could carbonate all of the beer
in the keg and then bottle).  After transfer into serving kegs, I chill them
and monitor and adjust the pressure until I get a stable concentration where
I like it.  If I want bottled beer, I either poor directly into chilled
bottles for short-term use (I loose a little carbonation) or
counter-pressure fill for other than immediate use.  I think that a cp
bottler is the way to go.  I built mine following a Zymurgy how-to article
for less than $30.  You have good control over carbonation level, very
little chance for oxygenation, no bottle sediment and no bottle conditioning
time.   It takes a little more time to do the cp bottling, but if all you do
is bottle some of your beer and serve most in the keg, its great.  Many
commercial breweries use this method over bottle conditioning.

Will Hale asked about a foaming problem with his kegged beer.  It seems to
me that the factors affecting foaming are temperature and pressure.
Specifically the factors include:  amount of CO2 in solution, temperature of
the beer at the point of dispensing verses temperature of the beer at
equilibrium in the keg, diameter of the serving line, length of the serving
line and the serving pressure from the regulator.  To control foaming you
need to find the happy medium of all these factors.  If the beer warms or
has a change in atmospheric pressure during dispensing, then CO2 will come
out of solution and cause foaming.  The more CO2 in solution, the more
potential for it to come out of solution at a given pressure; the warmer the
beer, the less CO2 can be held in solution at a given pressure; the larger
the inside diameter of the serving line, the more pressure is necessary to
push out the beer; the longer the line, the more pressure required to push
out the beer.  If you cannot solve the problem by varying the diameter and
length of the hose to adjust dispensing pressure, then consider the
temperature factor.  I have found temperature to be a big factor for me.  A
properly carbonated bock is more carbonated than an ale, and so should be
served at a colder temperature.    Will, you mentioned that you serve at 50
degrees.  Try the low to mid 40s for serving a lager and make sure that the
beer is not being warmed between the keg and the spigot.  Alternately, try
reducing the level of carbonation in the beer.


Neal Christensen
Missoula - A Place Sort Of


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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 95 11:09:07 pst
From: rbarnes at sdccd.cc.ca.us
Subject: AB KEGS WITH PLASTIC ENDS

     I have access to a 15.5 gal. keg (Sanke?) that I believe once 
     contained an Anheuser-Busch product. The keg is stainless, and
     has what appears to be plastic or rubber on the end rings on 
     the top and bottom. Before I drive some distance to pick this 
     up, is this rubber a coating over stainless end rings? Can 
     the rubber be removed? I want to use the keg as a boiling 
     kettle, and obviously the coating will not withstand the heat 
     from the burner. 
     
     Has anyone converted a keg of this type?
     
     Thanks,
     
     Randy Barnes,
     San Diego

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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 95 15:35:04 EST
From: cdevrie at bmgmusic.com
Subject: Beer Carpentry 101

First, I'd like to thank all of you who responded to my e-mail regarding 
secondary fermentation.  I'm in the middle of that batch right now, so 
hopefully it will be good (of course it will :-)  ).

I was wondering if there are any books out there which give you steps and 
guidlines to building brewing equipment (ie. wort chillers, sparging systems, 
mashing systems, etc.) that anybody can do from their own home.  If anybody 
knows of any such book, please let me know.  Thanks in advance.

Later,
Chris

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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 15:43:13 -0500
From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Subject: test strips for hardness


In Homebrew Digest #1879 (November 09, 1995) Robert Marshall writes:

>In the Williams' Brewing Catalog they have a test strip advertised 
>for testing water hardness. I have never seen this before and was 
>wondering if anyone out there has ever used this themselves??
>
 ...

I can't speak to the Williams catalog item, but pet shops that carry
supplies for tropical aquarium fish will also carry test strips and
test kits for water hardness, pH and alkalinity.  The big 'chain' pet
stores have a wide selection of these.

Stevea

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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 1995 15:58:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: GREGORY KING <GKING at ARSERRC.Gov>
Subject: Re:  Binford ToxiTherm 4000

>Date: Tue, 07 Nov 95 16:56:00 CST
>From: "Merchant, Thomas E" <temercha at hsv23.pcmail.ingr.com>
>Subject: Binford ToxiTherm 4000
>
>
>Kirk Fleming mentioned the Binford ToxiTherm 4000 mercury bath boiler in HBD 
>1877.  I'm having a problem with mine and am wondering if anyone else is... 
> It just doesn't seem to be working as well as when it was new.  It now 
>takes about 5 minutes to bring 5 gallons or wort to a boil.  When it was new 
>it could do the same in just over 2 minutes.  I'm thinking "more power". 
> Has anyone been successful at modifying it for better performance?  If so, 
>what did you do?  Thanks.

When you guys start to get serious about bringing your worts to a boil
quickly, you can do what I did.  I got myself a few nuclear fuel rods
(these may be obtained cheaply at your local army surplus store).  The rods
are inserted directly into the wort and then brought into close proximity
to achieve the critical mass that initiates the desired nuclear chain reaction.
5 gallons of wort comes to a boil in about 23 seconds.

I have a question of my own: is there any correlation between drinking
homebrew and sudden (and rather complete) loss of teeth and hair?

- --Greg

====================================================================
Gregory King                             Internet: gking at arserrc.gov
Eastern Rgnl. Rsrch. Cntr., ARS, USDA       Voice: (1) 215 233 6675
600 East Mermaid Lane                         Fax: (1) 215 233 6559
Philadelphia, PA  19118-2551

Disclaimer: Any opinions expressed in this message are mine.
====================================================================

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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 95 14:55:35 -0600
From: jay_weissler at il.us.swissbank.com (Jay Weissler)
Subject: sugars

Please, forgive me. I know that this has been covered but I failed to  
pay attention and now I can't seem to find the info.

Are there any common equivalents to invert sugar or maltose syrup?  
I'm looking for another name that I might find this stuff under in  
the grocery store. Are there other names that I might find them under  
in the brew shop?

How about substitutes? Are there good replacements? (I'm planning on  
trying some of Wheeler's recipes)

Are any of these available in Chicago brew stores? How about the  
target, challenger, etc. hops that Wheeler uses?

TIA
jayw

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Date: Thu,  9 Nov 95 13:04:27 TZ
From: Tim Lacy <timla at microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Bleach

In HBD #1879,  mark at beernut.com (Mark B. Alston)
said:
>In respones to Tim Fields query in HBD # 1876 re: "bleaching mother
>nature"
>I'm not a chemist and I don't have a source for this but....
>If my Environmental Conservation courses and my memory serve me
>correctly chlorine reacts with organic compounds in nature to form
>organochlorines like Dioxin - you know Dioxin?  That nasty cancer
>causing stuff that has been the scourge of EPA Superfund sites for
>years now.  As far as I know this is generally accepted as the truth

<<snip>>

There are some serious problems with your statement:

Chlorine is the 20th most common element in our environment.  Chlorine 
bleach decomposes to give off chlorine gas, leaving salt water behind, 
according to the label.  I'll get the chemical formula if you really need it.

Dioxin isn't an 'it', it's a 'them' - a class of compounds, and none of 
them can be formed by exposing organics to chlorine unless you intend 
to manufacture a dioxin.  In addition, you'll find in modern references 
that dioxins (technically, polychlorinated dibenzo-para-dioxins) while 
carcinogenic, has not been proven to be so in humans.  On the other 
hand, I'd rather not eat one.

Regardless, saying chlorine + organics = dioxins is (outside of the 
manufacture of certain compounds) false.  It's like saying that 
nitrogen + toulene = TNT.

Chlorine is used to sanitize drinking water. (my father-in-law is a 
water commissioner who'd be happy to fill us in on the details).  It's 
also used in the production of many common materials that are no more 
toxic than gravel - from PVC pipe to Saran(tm) wrap.

Call the EPA, or any good organic chemist, and ask them what the 
consequences of pouring chlorine bleach down the drain is.  Dioxin 
isn't one of them.

I apologize for the bandwidth, but I'd really like to see this kind of 
urban legend stuff get nipped in the bud before it's accepted as fact.  
I am very environmentally conscious, and I buy bleach in bulk!

 -Tim
<timla at microsoft.com>
My employer has nothing to do with this.



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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 15:49:54 -0600 (CST)
From: Richard Gardner <rgardner at Papillion>
Subject: Re: Blue Green Carboys

Lead in small amounts makes the glass clear.  In large amounts, it gives 
a yellow hue to the glass.  In a prior life I worked as a nuclear 
engineer where we had plenty of yellow glass viewports, the yellow coming 
from the lead.  I don't know what makes the carboys blue-green, but I 
wouldn't worry about it being Pb (I have 3 of these, and I am not worrying).


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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 1995 17:11:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: GREGORY KING <GKING at ARSERRC.Gov>
Subject: Re: bleach

>Date: Tue, 07 Nov 95 18:29:34 MST
>From: mark at beernut.com (Mark B. Alston)
>Subject: RE: Bleach
>
>In respones to Tim Fields query in HBD # 1876 re: "bleaching mother
>nature" 
>I'm not a chemist and I don't have a source for this but....
>If my Environmental Conservation courses and my memory serve me
>correctly chlorine reacts with organic compounds in nature to form
>organochlorines like Dioxin - you know Dioxin?  That nasty cancer
>causing stuff that has been the scourge of EPA Superfund sites for
>years now.  As far as I know this is generally accepted as the truth
>by everyone except G. Gordon Liddy and some of his listeners. 
>Whomever it was who suggested that bleach can't be bad because people
>have been using it for years is silly.  How do you think the
>environment got to the point where it is now?  Years and years of
>dumping things down the drain, that's how!
>
>- --- Jay LaBonte
>	email through beernut at xmission.com

Chlorine - like most other elements - may exist in various forms.  Some
are benign, others are poisonous.  In the form of chlorine gas it is
deadly, as well as being very reactive chemically.  In the form of sodium
chloride (the stuff in your salt shaker, which contains nearly 61% chlorine
by weight) it is harmless.

I don't know the complete chemistry of the hypochlorite ion (the active
ingredient in bleach), but I think it has a negligible environmental
impact when it's sufficiently diluted before being dumped down the drain.
Our regulatory agencies may not be perfect, but does anyone think that
they would allow chlorine bleach to be sold by the gallon in supermarkets
if this were not the case?

- --Greg

====================================================================
Gregory King                             Internet: gking at arserrc.gov
Eastern Rgnl. Rsrch. Cntr., ARS, USDA       Voice: (1) 215 233 6675
600 East Mermaid Lane                         Fax: (1) 215 233 6559
Philadelphia, PA  19118-2551

Disclaimer: Any opinions expressed in this message are mine.
====================================================================

Return to table of contents

End of HOMEBREW Digest #1880, 11/10/95