---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  RE: Errant messages ("CHUCK HUDSON, ER LAB 3-2865")
  hardware for brewing (mterry)
  Re: Indoor Propane ("Roger Deschner ")
  Intimidated Newbies (KennyEddy at aol.com)
  Re: What's the use of HDB? (Cory Wright)
  male hops ((Peter Wester))
  Carbonation (Narvaez Ronald)
  Propane, again/CO detectors/HBD usefulness ((David C. Harsh))
  RE: Conical Tanks (Joe Rolfe)
  Decoction Mashing, Oktoberfest ((George De Piro))
  Priming < 5 gal. (Darrin Pertschi)
  HBD and The Web /Spent Grains in Bread (Karl Lutzen)
  pseudo-decoction ("Bryan L. Gros")
  The use of HBD, HBD jr. (Russell Mast)
  Re: Fruit Extracts (Todd Kirby)
  Brewpubs (MANCUSJM at sysadm.suny.edu)
  Porter/Ground Ivy Beer/Conical Ferm's/Errant Messages/Siebel/Boulevard (Rob Moline)
  Fruit Bitterness or Tartness (Maestro)
  decoction/corrosion (M257876 at sl1001.mdc.com (bayerospace at mac))
  Tips on Brewfest '96 (RHENDRY at MFOR01.FOR.GOV.BC.CA)
  potato beer/boiling gelatin/AlK and Wheeler's porter article (STROUDS at cliffy.polaroid.com)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "CHUCK HUDSON, ER LAB 3-2865" <CHUDSON at mozart.unm.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:21:22 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: RE: Errant messages

Each and every day I have been removed from the digest for ____ 
and a few messages down the line I get Welcome to the HBD. 
I know a little of what Shawn is going through and sometimes it can't be helped
and if he is using a UNIX or VAX/VMS unit well they can be "fun" (See HBD from 
a few days ago "If computer systems were beer") 
Chuck Hudson 
chudson at mozart.unm.edu 

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From: mterry <mterry at iea.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 23:06:31 -0700
Subject: hardware for brewing

Does anyone have plans, advice, or a reference regarding the fabrication 
of a support for three 15 gal kettles with stoves and all the related 
paraphernalia for all grain brewing in this quantity? A system that 
could be dismantled intermittently would be nice. 
Advice via posting or email would be appreciated. 
mterry at iea.com 

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From: "Roger Deschner " <U52983 at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:10:40 CDT
Subject: Re: Indoor Propane

Indoor propane appliances are quite common, in places with no natural gas 
utility such as rural areas. Clothes dryers, stoves, water heaters, space 
heaters, even refrigerators are propane powered. When properly installed, 
these things operate safely, indoors. 
 
BUT.. it is ILLEGAL to have a propane appliance on any level below ground 
level, due to the extreme hazard of catastrophic explosion. (i.e. whole 
house blows up). 
 
Before you blow yourself up, go to a reputable propane dealer and get 
their propane safety pamphlet. 
 
Roger Deschner      University of Illinois at Chicago     rogerd at uic.edu 
Aliases: u52983 at uicvm.uic.edu    R.Deschner at uic.edu     USUICZ3P at IBMMAIL 
=============== "Civilization was CAUSED by beer." ===================== 

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From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 08:52:25 -0400
Subject: Intimidated Newbies

Jesse Krusemark suggests: 
 
<< Maybe a novice version of HBD is in order (HBDjr). >> 
 
Jesse (and other newbies nervously lurking out there), this is a forum for 
*everybody*.  Don't let the likes of you-know-who or anyone else prevent you 
from asking your "bonehead" questions.  Most of us (at least those who 
haven't yet acheived Brew-God status) are willing, even eager, to help 
newbies and seasoned vets alike.  The talk often gets technical and detailed 
but that's what makes it fun.  One day it hits you, that most of the posts 
actually start to make sense, and you realize you've learned quite a bunch 
here!  I came to this forum with 3 years time experience but far less than 
that in terms of what I really knew.  Brewed in a vacuum, so to speak.  In 
the year I've been here I've learned many times more than what I knew prior. 
 Far more constructive than those first years -- make a batch, scowl, curse, 
repeat.  I've solved "most" of my process-related problems and am (usually) 
making the kind of brew I always hoped I would.  For someone like yourself 
coming here at an early stage, you will have the collective wisdom of 
literally centuries of brewing knowledge at your disposal.  We wouldn't be 
here chatting if we didn't like this stuff. 
 
There are a huge number of good resources on the 'net for you to check out. 
 Without listing them individually, let me direct you to The Brewery 
(http://alpha.rollanet.org).  Lots of info an links, for beginners to 
professional brewers.  bound to bring up two new questions for every one that 
you had. 
 
***** 
 
Ken Schwartz 
KennyEddy at aol.com 
http://users.aol.com/kennyeddy 
 

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From: Cory Wright <cwright at midcom.anza.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 08:34:21 -0500
Subject: Re: What's the use of HDB?

Alan wrote: 
> 
What use does this mailing list serve that cannot be served by 
rec.crafts.brewing? 
> 
 
Believe it or not, there are some of us (like me) who are usenet 
challenged. Email is currently my only option for following such gripping 
brewing topics as beer in space and whether we should be able to call each 
other stupid or not. Wait a minute... maybe you're right.  at ;-) 
 
Seriously, I'd hate to have the Digest go away. It has been a great help 
and keeps me interested in brewing between the long stretches when I am 
able to make a batch. 
 
Cheers, 
 
Cory 
cwright at midcom.anza.com 
 

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From: peterw at rivo.dlo.nl (Peter Wester)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 15:38:26 +0100
Subject: male hops

Hi all, 
 
I've heard the following about male and female hops during a lecture of 
prof. dr. de Keuckeleire (from Belgium, doctor's degree in hops!): male 
hops cause seeds in female hops (whow!) and those seeds contain oil, which 
have a negative influence on the formation of foam. According to prof. dr. 
de  Keuckeleire is this the reason why the male hops will be removed from 
the female hops. Can someone confirm this theory? 
 
Yours sincerely, 
 
- -- Peter Wester 
 
 

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From: Narvaez Ronald <RNarvaez at phs.org>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 07:50:00 PDT
Subject: Carbonation

 
Hello fellow brewers, I am having a small problem that maybe some of you 
might be able to help me with. I have been brewing beer for around three 
years, and haven't had any major problems to speak about but this little 
one keeps happening. When I bottle my beer I always disolve 3/4 cup 
dextrose in 1 quart of boiling water and then add to my bottling bucket. 
I bottle and cap and put the bottles in my beer closet. The bottles 
carbonate at around 70 deg. F for three weeks and have great carbonation. 
When I put the beer in to the fridge to cool them down for drinking, I 
loose almost all of the carbonation. When I poor the beer I don't get a 
foamy head like I do when the beer is at room temp. I don't mind drinking 
my beer at room temp but I would also like to drink it cold and still get 
the rich foamy head. 
If anybody can help me out I will be very thankfull. I am getting tired 
of drinking cold flat beer. 
 
Thanks for any assistance in advance. 
 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Ron Narvaez 
RNarvaez at phs.org 
 
Please check out the latest web page I just finished designing for my 
homebrew shop here in Albuquerque New Mexico 
www.nmia.com/~homebrew 
 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 

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From: dharsh at alpha.che.uc.edu (David C. Harsh)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:55:47 -0400
Subject: Propane, again/CO detectors/HBD usefulness

Guy Gregory states that the only concern about indoor propane use is leaks 
and explosions.  Not true. 
 
Cajun cooker style burners are not rated as being safe for indoor use.  The 
problem is carbon monoxide production which *can*  (note - not always) be 
produced at execessive levels.  I am unaware of any data on this, but I 
would assume that the "jet" style burners produce more CO than the cast 
burners. 
 
Gas leaks are a concern whether you are dealing with propane or methane, 
the only difference is where your house blows up (methane rises, propane 
sinks).  Many kitchen stoves run on propane safely, you just have to switch 
the orifices on the burners. 
 
On CO detectors:  Consumer Reports had a good write up on these earlier 
this year - worth checking out. 
 
HBD Usefuleness:  The only problem I see is routine 100 line posts with 15 
line signatures.  The volume doesn't bother me, but come one, KEEP IT SHORT 
AND TOO THE POINT!  Omit the history of your brewing experience - summarize 
briefly!   And if Noko Ono really bothered you, inform the 
postmaster at aol.com, don't rant at the collective (we probably agreed 
anyway!!)  No, I didn't get the pun in his logon name either.  <rant mode 
off> 
 
Dave 
 
 
 
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& 
&                     Dave Harsh                         & 
&          DNRC Minister of Bloatarianism  O-            & 
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& 
 
 

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From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:03:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Conical Tanks

an addition to the ercent post on concial racking, the author 
mentioned that racking from the middle cone vale and switching over to 
the bottom valve.... 
 
another whay is to add a SS pipe that has a bend in itsuch that it may be 
twisted in the tank from the outside to rack from just above the  yeast 
in the cone..tough to draw it in ascii. 
 
 
this needs to be played with as to the length and bend angle to be adapted 
to the specific tank and the amount of yeast present in the tank, where the 
mid cone fittings and it's size (2"TC or..) are and the diameter of the tank. 
 
with this you attach a see thru hose or sight glass and rack bulk of the 
tank then as the level comes down start twisting the rack arm to follow the 
beer until it become more turbid, the quitthen discard the refuse yeast 
hopefull not to the sewer..... 
just another method 
 
joe 

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From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:05:28 -0700
Subject: Decoction Mashing, Oktoberfest

     Just to put two more cents into my own question, last night I looked 
     back at the 1995 AHA NHC Gold medal recipes.  Of 7 beers that would 
     traditionally be decocted, 2 were.  The 1992 winners had no 
     decoctions, but there were also a bunch of extract brews.  1995 had 
     only two extract brews, and I think they were both partial mash 
     (barley wine & a fruit-type beer, lambic maybe?). 
 
     Jason (HuskerRed at aol.com) asked about the Oktoberfest celebration and 
     beer a couple of issues back. 
 
     Marzen is THE traditional fest beer.  The Oktoberfest as we now know 
     it has only been celebrated since 1810, when the first fest was held 
     to celebrate the engagement of Bavaria's crown prince. 
 
     Before then, the fest existed as a celebration of the reopening of 
     the breweries after the summer "off season."  In the days before 
     glycol-cooled cylindroconical fermenters, brewing was not usually 
     done year-round in Bavaria.  A strong beer was brewed in March (hence 
     the name Marzen, Marz=March) and was stored and consumed throughout 
     the summer.  The beer's high gravity enabled it to avoid infection. 
     At summer's end, the leftovers were consumed at one heck of a party! 
 
     The original Marzen must have been an ale (lagers weren't known until 
     the middle of the 19th century), and was probably less attenuated 
     then the modern fest beers (this is probably the case with most 
     "ancient" beers, because of poorly modified malt and poor temperature 
     control during the mash, amongst other things). 
 
     The first modern Oktoberfest was brewed by Spaten in Munich.  Similar 
     in color and grain bill to Vienna (i.e., lots of high-quality, 
     lightly toasted Munich malt), but brewed to a higher gravity  (low 
     60's; weaker than bock, but not by much) and lagered cold for 9 
     months.  In our time, fest beers are now of a somewhat lower gravity 
     (~1.1055) and are available year-round.  Spaten claims that they 
     lager for 3 months. 
 
     Modern Oktoberfest beer is usually copper colored (although there are 
     lighter examples), and is fairly malty with toasty notes.  Hop rates 
     are low, and the aroma is of toasty malt; no hop or ester fruitiness 
     should be present. 
 
     References for this have been books by M. Jackson and G. Fix, as well 
     as a source or two that I can't remember specifically! 
 
     Have fun! 
 
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY) 

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From: Darrin Pertschi <darrinp at cowles.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:21:53 -0400
Subject: Priming < 5 gal.

I'd like to split a 5 gal batch between my keg and bottles. Anyone have a 
tried and true corn sugar priming amout for 2.5 or 3 gallons to be batch 
primed for bottling? It wouldn'd be 3/8 of a cup would it? I'll force 
carbonate the remaining 2 or 2.5 gal. in the keg. 
 
Darrin 

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From: Karl Lutzen <lutzen at alpha.rollanet.org>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:06:09 -0500
Subject: HBD and The Web /Spent Grains in Bread

After following the bits of the various debates in the HBD, it really 
should be noted that many of these types of discussions can be taken 
care of through email with the person and not cluttering up valuable HBD 
space.  (like this message?) 
 
As such, I have edited the HBD2HTML filter and now include mailto: links 
on the contributor's article "From:" field.  Mind you, these will not 
always be perfect, but in many cases you can simply click on the link 
and mail the person instead of the digest. 
 
Of course this only works if your are reading the HBD from the htmlized 
versions available at http://alpha.rollanet.org/hbd/HBD.html and you 
have a web browser that supports the "mailto:" tag.  But from the stats, 
there are quite a few folks doing this. 
 
(as a side note, I've converted all HBD's from 1992 to present. When I 
get time I'll do the rest, but much of the data has been repeated since 
then and I'll wager lots of money that most of the email addresses are 
no longer valid in the older HBD's) 
 
Now, for some Brewing related stuff: 
 
Kevin Kane had asked about spent grains in bread.  A quick search 
generated a boat-load of hits, but these are 4 of the more interesting 
results: 
 
http://alpha.rollanet.org/hbd/archive/1264.html#1264-18 
http://alpha.rollanet.org/hbd/archive/1265.html#1265-4 
http://alpha.rollanet.org/hbd/archive/1341.html#1341-20 
http://alpha.rollanet.org/hbd/archive/1342.html#1342-29 
 
================================================================== 
Karl Lutzen                             lutzen at alpha.rollanet.org 
System Administrator 
The Brewery                             http://alpha.rollanet.org/ 

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From: "Bryan L. Gros" <grosbl at ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:12:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: pseudo-decoction

>>From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu> 
>>Subject: Re: decoction mashing 
>> 
>>George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) wrote: 
>>>How many people out there decoction mash? Do you know why? Do you think it  
>>>makes a difference?  How about the pro's in the audience? 
> 
>>I make mostly German style beers and I decoction mash all of them, strictly 
>>for the flavors and aromas it produces, which is probably why most brewers 
>>(who do) do it these days. I believe this is the only way to consistently 
>>obtain certain aromatic components. 
 
In a Style article earlier this year, the author (Jay Hersh maybe?) suggests 
that a homebrewer can achieve some of the benefits of decoction by 
raising the temperature in a direct-fired tun by 1 degreeF/minute and 
stirring well.  (Don't remember what temps, probably protein rest temp 
to sacchrification temp).  He says the heat gives some of the benefits 
of a decoction including the darker color. 
 
Anyone tried this?  I tend to comprimise and use a single decoction when 
I make a German beer.  It isn't that much harder than my usual step mash 
and ads some maltiness. 
 
BTW, the style article was on Munich Dunkels, and the author says 
that, like most German styles, brewers use a double or triple decoction 
mash for Dunkels beers. 
 
               - Bryan 
                 grosbl at ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu 
                 Nashville, TN 
 

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From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:26:46 -0500
Subject: The use of HBD, HBD jr.

 
> From: alan.mckay at acadiau.ca (Alan McKay) 
> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:26:45 -0300 (ADT) 
> Subject: What's the use of HDB? 
 
> I don't mean to be the devil's advocate, 
 
I do.  Use Devil (tm) brand products all the time.  They're HOT! 
 
Ahem, sorry. 
 
> but is there any real reason why HBD even exists anymore? 
 
I, for one, am blocked from reading newsgroups.  My only contact with 
the big net is through e-mail. 
 
> Personally, I'd much rather read all this 
> stuff in a newsgroup where it is far, far easier to follow threads 
> and so on.  Getting a big long text file like this is an real pain in 
> the butt. 
 
Well, it's worked for several years, during most or all of which the 
newsgroup was active, so there must be SOMETHING to it. 
 
> What use does this mailing list serve that cannot be 
> served by rec.crafts.brewing? 
 
Well, until recently (cough cough) the HBD has been relatively free of 
the noise and nonsense of rec.crafts.brewing.  Additionally, it was 
geared more towards the more serious brewer, and/or the more mature 
poster.  It was, essentially, a little more exclusive, because one had 
to take the effort to subscribe, rather than just "wander in off the 
streets" as one often does in newsgroups. 
 
For example, the perennial "Anyone tried to make a marijuana beer?" thread 
pops up here once a year, and gets dropped within a few posts.  I haven't 
followed the newsgroup in two years, but back then it was basically ongoing, 
taking only an occasional two or three week break before someone else came 
in and started it. 
 
> From: Maestro <krusemje at martin.luther.edu> 
> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:43:53 -0500 (CDT) 
> Subject: HBD jr. 
> 
> I enjoy reading the 
> digest and love experiencing the glory of the knowledge that it protrudes 
> twice daily, but to be honest 80% of it gets filed in "What-d-Heck!" 
 
I think that I skip about 60% of the digest daily, even when I have the time. 
Sometimes, I don't understand the topic, more often, I don't care.  I won't 
have the time/space/money resources for anything larger than a 5 gallon 
setup for a year or so.  I don't read the posts about RIMS.  They used to 
frighten me, but not longer. 
 
> But we need guidance and sponsorship.  Maybe a novice version of HBD is 
> in order (HBDjr).  Those who care may participate in both forums.  Those 
> of us new to brewing want to be appreciated and encouraged without 
> bothering the "pros" and inflicting "page-down" syndrome on the HBD. 
> Would anyone be able or willing to begin a juniour affiliate? 
 
First, it's hard enough to get someone to maintain one HBD, I don't know 
where you could find another.  Secondly, page-down syndrome is something 
you'll always have in HBD regardless of level of knowledge.  I suspect, also, 
you'd have it in any incarnation of an HBDjr. 
 
Second, I don't see the need for another digest.  I definately think that 
we can all modify our posting habits a bit, and provide proper encouragement 
over private e-mail for people with rudimentary questions.  (I try, as do a 
couple others I know.)  Some of this stuff is intimidating to anyone, and 
perhaps it should occasionally be re-emphasized that you CAN make good beer 
without a slide rule and a tesla coil. 
 
Still, the purpose of HBD is improving beer.  Some will tell you some easy 
and cheap things you can do, others will tell you some difficult and expensive 
things you can do.  I think there's a place for it all, and I think this is 
it.  Many of the novice questions have been asked time and again, but that's 
no reason to be afraid to ask them. 
 
Finally, I'm just not sure what you'd put in an HBDjr.  Would it be the same 
forty questions over and over, with the same 3 self-appointed experts 
answering them each time?  Maybe some kind of Brewing FAQ file would be more 
appropriate. 
 
- -R 

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From: Todd Kirby <mkirby at bgsm.edu>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 11:25:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Fruit Extracts

 
Brewthren: 
 
David Burley asks why not just use real fruit instead of extracts? I 
think once I set out to make a fruit beer from the start I will most 
definitely use the real McCoy. My primary concern at present is that I'm 
wanting to enhance a brew I've got ready to go in to the keg. From what I 
can tell, adding fruit is probably going to start another fermentation 
and, having already finished half of this batch (I brew 10 gal batches), 
I don't want to further raise the alcohol content. It seemed a good 
opportunity to test fruit extracts since the base beer (my first porter) 
was a little too lightly hopped for the style. At any rate, I'm going to 
try a strawberry extract, having remembered a most excellent strawberry 
porter at the invitational this past spring in Durham. We'll see what 
happens. That's what's fun about this hobby! Any suggestions are most 
certainly welcome. 
 
 
Todd K. 

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From: MANCUSJM at sysadm.suny.edu
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Brewpubs

I am heading to the Myrtle Beach, SC soon and would appreciate 
information about brewpubs or other decent establishments in the area. 
Jim Mancuso 
mancusjm at sysadm.suny.edu 

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From: Rob Moline <brewer at kansas.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 11:04:45 -0500
Subject: Porter/Ground Ivy Beer/Conical Ferm's/Errant Messages/Siebel/Boulevard

Dave B on Porter- 
>When I read Wheeler's comment about the people of London inventing Porter, I 
>understood it to mean the concept of blending stale and new beer.  I believe 
>Harwood is properly credited elsewhere with introducing "Entire". I guess it 
>was 
>called this because it contained everything a drinker could want in that it 
was
>a  preblend of stale and new beer.  And responsible for that spoiled taste I 
>sometimes get with Guiness from the tap. Entire was later called Porter either
>because it was popular in the Porterhouse or as some have said because it was 
>ported out of London.  I favor the Porterhouse version, just because I like 
>those steaks. 
>I had the same feeling as AlK about the comments on the origin of  Rodenbach, 
>unless Wheeler is talking about the concept of blending old and new beer, 
which
>Belgians do all the time aka Gueuze and many others. 
>Maybe it isn't so much poor research as sloppy writing and a desire to give a 
>different perspective. The latter of  which I think is fine unless it is 
>misleading, as these comments can be. 
 
        "Mr. Harwood's Entire" or "Entire Butt" and was first sold at a pub 
called the Blue Last..... 
        ....the publican called it porter, since porters were his best 
customers for the new beer." Foster "Porter", 1982, Brewers Publications, 
page 6. 
 
        Blending new beer and soured beer is the point there, ala Guinness, 
and many Belgians. I would hesitate to call his writing sloppy, based on one 
short article in a brewspaper, having never read any of his other stuff. 
(But I am looking forward to it!) 
 
>From: Vincent A Voelz <voel0009 at gold.tc.umn.edu> (Vincent Voelz) 
>Subject: Ground Ivy beer....continued 
> 
>Last night I just brewed the English Ale (some light extract w/ crystal and 
>brown specialty grains for color) with 1 oz. creeping Charlie (a.k.a. 
>Ground Ivy) -- which is essentially a lawn weed -- instead of hops as the 
>bittering agent.   Some of us reported a stingy/numbing sensation after 
tasting it, which I think is the bittering component (whatever THAT is). 
Still, I 
>would like to find out the toxicity of the plant, as well as determine 
>whether or not allergic reactions to the plant are possible/probable.  Any 
>info/references/etc. would be appreciated. 
 
        Your report of stingy/numbing sensation made me think some light 
toxicity, but I called Spencer Tomb, Prof Plant Biology, KSU....He says it 
is probably Glecoma Hederaceae L., member of the mint family Lamiaceae. If 
it is, it was an import from Europe to the Eastern US, and that members of 
the mint family are not known for toxicities. The best way is to take a 
whole plant to your county agent for Identification. Failing that you may 
send one to me and He said he would identify it for you. His concern is that 
what may be considered a colloquial name for one plant in one part of the 
world may be colloquially known as something else in another part. I, as he, 
like the idea of it, but he says  that until positively identified, he 
wouldn't drink any. 
 
>From: Kyle R Roberson <roberson at beta.tricity.wsu.edu> 
>Subject: Conical Fermenters 
>My impression is that these tanks would not work very well with 
>only a bottom valve. 
 
        They are more versatile with the racking port, but are able to be 
used without, as well. I drop the yeast from the bottom, until it runs 
clear, then transfer to a secondary tank for fining /sedimentation, thence 
to bright beer servers. The racking port is most useful with filters for the 
reasons you explained. No matter that you can drop the yeast from the 
bottom, there is still a thin layer on the inner surface of the cone, that 
you can avoid by having your racking arm open to the center of the vessel 
and away from the walls.  I just installed racking arms to mine, but have 
used them without rackers for nearly 2 years now. 
 
>From: m.bryson2 at genie.com 
>   Has anyone else received multilple email messages stating that: 
>1) You have been removed from the mailing list :( 
>2) You have been added to the mailing list :) 
 
        Yes, but I just thought it was a 'friend' of mine...   ;-) 
 
>From: Jim Nasiatka-Wylde <Jwylde at interaccess.com> 
>In other questions - does anyone have the scoop on a place here 
>in Chicago called the Seibolt Institute (sp?) 
 
        Siebel Institute, 4055 W Peterson Ave., Chicago, Illinois, 
60646-6001, (707)-463-3400. Great reputation, but be seated when you open 
their catalog and see the costs! Not that they are out of line with similar 
schools. Tom  Ricker, 75th Street Brewing, has done their long course and 
Kevin Eichelberger, Blind Tiger Brewing, has done the short course; they 
both give it high praise! 
 
From: Larry N. Lowe <lnl at awips1.abrfc.noaa.gov> 
second question: i recently tried a Boulevard Wheat and UMM..UMM GOOD. does 
anyone have a recipe for this or thier pale ale? BTW, it is from a microbrew in
KC (Jethro Gump?) 
 
        Boulevard Brewing is a micro, this last year crossing the line to go 
above 25,000 BBL, just across the Kansas border in KC MO. Started by John 
MacDonald, they are on the verge of bursting out of their building, as they 
are only able to install one more unitank, before they have to go to the 
next step, a new facility that would produce the main lines and just use the 
old facilities for specialties. Nice folks, nice beer. 
        I have seen their recipe for Wheat, but when I looked I was more 
interested in how they laid out their brewing logs, what notations they 
made, etc.  I would never ask for more specifics. Sorry. I do recall they 
were dryhopping the PA, with whole EKG, but don't know if they are still 
doing it. 
        If you are going to be in the area, call ahead for tour info..very 
tasty tasting room, too! 
Jethro 
 
Cheers! 
Rob Moline 
Little Apple Brewing Company 
Manhattan, Kansas 
 
"The more I know about beer, the more I realize I need to know more about 
beer!"
 

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From: Maestro <krusemje at martin.luther.edu>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 11:39:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Fruit Bitterness or Tartness

Greetings Brewsters, 
 
     Although I have not brewed a fruit beer, I have been thinking about 
doing one ever since I began brewing.  I've been reading recipes and pondering 
various things in search of something original.  I haven't seen any 
rhubarb beer recipes (but lots of rhubarb mead recipes) and that seems to 
be what I have the most of currently in my garden.  Actually it's coming 
out of my ears, and I'd like to use it. 
     My question is what must be considered in hopping due to an inherent 
bitterness in the fruit or its seeds (for instance, raspberry seeds). 
Does anyone have any ideas for hop type and boil schedule if one would 
like to use some of the bitterness already present in the fruit. 
 
Jesse Krusemark 
krusemje at martin.luther.edu 
 

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From: M257876 at sl1001.mdc.com (bayerospace at mac)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 11:37 -0600
Subject: decoction/corrosion

collective homebrew conscience: 
 
thanks for the explanation of the corrosion on my temperature probe.  anybody 
else have more ideas about how to fix it other than paint/lacquer? just 
curious. 
 
re: decoction mashing.  i decoction mash all my lagers and weizenbiers, and 
the occasional altbier.  i believe my beers benefit from more intense malt 
flavors, and yes, i have done side-by-side comparisons.  i preferred the 
decoction-mashed beer(s). 
 
now, here's a question for all you decoction mash experts:  when the cold 
(rest) mash sits at protein rest temperature (122-131 F) for an extended 
time ( in my case, it sits a minimum of 90 minutes) while the decocting 
is going on,  what's going on in terms of protein degradation, and why 
doesn't this 
(oops)  have an effect on the body/head retention of the finished beer?  is 
it because the medium sized proteins in the decoction are preserved?  my 
decoction beers don't have a problem with body/hr, but i've often wondered 
if this is the correct answer. 
 
anybody out there having problems with maintaining sufficient mash liquor 
temperature during recirculation ( vorlauf )? 
 
someone asked about the siebel institute of technology in chicago.  they 
run ads in every issue of zymurgy, and offer a range of courses on different 
aspects of beer production.  312 279 0966 is the number to call. 
 
brew hard, 
 
mark bayer 

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From: RHENDRY at MFOR01.FOR.GOV.BC.CA
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 09:40:00 PDT
Subject: Tips on Brewfest '96

To: HOMEBREW--INTERNET homebrew at aob.org 
 
I'm going to take in the Oregon Brewfest this weekend in Portland, anyone have 
any last minute tips on how to enjoy it to the fullest? Other tours & brewpubs 
which are a "must see" for an avid brewer on his one time sojourn to "Mecca"? 
Thanks for any insights, please post today if you can. 
 
Regards, 
Russ Hendry, R.O. Planning In Sunny Invermere BC.(604)342-4225 
Fax:342-4247                  Inet: RHENDRY at MFOR01.FOR.GOV.BC.CA 

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From: STROUDS at cliffy.polaroid.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 13:51:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: potato beer/boiling gelatin/AlK and Wheeler's porter article

RE: Spud beer: 
 
Brian Bliss writes about malting potatoes and using them as a 
adjunct and Delano DuGarm replies: 
 
> I've never heard of malting potates, and always thought 
>that the sprouted ones had "gone bad." 
> The best reference I've found for potatoes is Brad Kraus 
>"This Spud's for You -- Potatoes as a Brewing Adjunct," _Zymurgy_ 
>17 (4) 78-81 (1994). 
 
 
Ahem.  The original authoritative article on brewing with potatoes was 
written by Carey Jensen back in the  April 1987 issue of the Foam Ranger's 
Brewsletter Urquell.  I reposted this article along with some of my own 
potato experiences back in HBD's 1365, 1369, and 1370 (March 1994).  I will 
leave it to any interested parties to retrieve those articles on their own. 
 
*********** 
 
RE: boiling gelatin 
 
Pierre Jelenc restates the truth: 
 
>Once and for all, please, gelatin is made by BOILING collagen FOR HOURS. 
>It is fully denatured. Everything that can happen to it has already 
>happened. 
 
It is worth noting that Don Put perpetuated this myth about gelatin in a 
recent issue (Vol 4, #1) of Brewing Techniques.  His article on clarifying 
beers stated that one shouldn't boil gelatin/water. I was surprised that no 
one write a Letter to the Editor on that one. Pierre? 
 
Of related interest is a tour that I took last summer of the Kind & Knox 
gelatin production plant in Sioux City, IA.  Train loads of cleaned cow 
bone chips are treated with base to extract the calcium.  What is left are 
basically small chunks of rubbery collagen.  These are treated with hot, 
then _boiling_ water to extract the gelatin (initial hot water extractions 
yield lower MW gelatin fragments, useful in some applications).  The 
gelatin solutions obtained then undergo ion-exchange treatment, 
concentration, and final drying and processing to yield dry gelatin. 
 
******************* 
RE: Wheeler's Porter article 
 
Wheeler (via Rob) writes: 
>Thus the original London porter was invented by the people of 
>London, the collective drinking public, and not by Ralph Harwood as many 
>people assert. 
 
and AlK responds 
>Among these many people is Terry Foster whose very well-researched 
>book "Porter" contradicts this statement.  Dr. John Harrison would 
>be a good person to ask to mediate, or at least cast the tie-breaking 
>vote. 
 
On the contrary, I do not agree that Foster contradicts Wheeler.  Go back 
and read pages 5-10 of Foster's book.  The last two paragraphs of page 6 
and the first of page 7 clearly indicate that Foster does _not_ believe 
that Harwood invented porter. 
 
 
Also: 
Wheeler also writes: 
>This is the Belgian Rodenbach, which has it's origins in 
>London Porter, and is itself a blend of a sour beer, stored for 
>18 months in large oak vats, and a relatively fresh beer that 
>is only a month or so old. 
>Furthermore they also sell the sour or "stale" beer on it's own, 
>under the name of Rodenbach Grand Cru. 
 
And AlK responds: 
>I question that Rodenbach is at all related to London Porter. 
>I would like to see some references for this statement. 
 
Peter Bouckaert, head brewer at Rodenbach, believes that there is a strong 
connection between the two. He stated that at the talk he gave at the Craft 
Brewers conference in Boston in April (apparently Eugene Rodenbach learned 
the art of brewing while in England in 1860, a time when porter still 
accounted for 3/4 of all of the beer drunk in London, according to Foster). 
 
For the full text of Peter's talk, go to 
 
http://alpha.rollanet.org/library/Rodnbch.html 
 
 
Also, AlK sez: 
 
> For the record, I personally get no acetic (vinegary) character 
>in either of the Rodenbach beers. 
 
You didn't taste the right bottle :-). 
 
Seriously, there is extremely wide variation from oak barrel to oak barrel 
at Rodenbach.  A member of our local homebrew club (Sarah White)had a very 
personalized tour of Rodenbach a couple of years ago.  She walked around 
the brewery with Peter, tasting samples from many of the 294 aging barrels. 
Sarah reported that the variation between aging tanks was fascinating, one 
would be lactic, another acetic, another like New England style cider. 
 
Al, you also didn't fully quote Wheeler, he clearly stated that the acidity 
of Rodenbach Grand Cru may be mellowed by extended aging - this is exactly 
the same discussion that has been going on regarding esterification in the 
lambic digest.  The Brett activity in the aging barrels may be enough to 
get the acetic acid level close to or below threshold 
 
>From personal experience, I can report that the Boston area had bottles of 
Grand Cru some years ago that was acetic enough to clean your teeth off. 
The more recent vintages have been much more restrained. 
 
Overall, I think that Al's objections to Wheeler's porter article were too 
harsh and generally unfounded. 
 
Steve 
************ 
strouds at polaroid.com 
************ 
 
 
 

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