---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Mike Donald, Digest Janitor-in-training
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Cooler efficiency, Matthew Cracks Corn ("David R. Burley")
  [none] ()
  What's the best way to clean out a (dirty) Cornelius KEG ((Raymond P Kasprowicz))
  Beer and Skittles (priest at mile.enet.dec.com)
  SA Triple Bock (Chris P Crigger)
  Quick question (Terry Selba)
  re:Squeezin dem grains (Charles Burns)
  HDB (John Miller {83802})
  Beer O2 and Skittles ((A. J. deLange))
  Yeasts and Malted Buckwheat ("OMAHONEY, LARRY -LLOM")
  Torrified Wheat (Fred Waltman)
  Re: CP fillers & Flame Cabinets ((Jay Reeves))
  Calcium in the Mash ((Bill Giffin))
  Did I pitch Dead Yeast? (TheTHP at aol.com)
  Re: Microkegs (U18183 at UICVM.UIC.EDU)
  re: Calcium and Enzymes (Dave Whitman)
  Replacement Oxynator tanks ((Michael A. Owings))
  Multi-mashing (RUst1d?)
  Boston Beer Massacre (Brad Anesi)
  Spaten Optimator (BRIAN F. THUMM)
  RE:  Too Much Yeast/Second Runnings ((Steve Adams))
  Re:Relationship btwn immersion Chiller outfow & wort temp  ((Derek P. Whitelock))
  liquid isinglass ((BAYEROSPACE))
  Grist Size vs. Efficiency ("Gregory, Guy J.")
  Sugar concentrations in wort (mikehu at lmc.com)
  Alpha-amyalse & Calcium (Steve Alexander)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 06 Nov 96 22:44:11 EST
Subject: Cooler efficiency, Matthew Cracks Corn

Brewsters: 
 
> From: Derek Lyons <elde at hurricane.net> 
 
> A friend of mine who *does* know about thermal xfer reccomends throttling 
> the flow speed to maintain max output temp. (==Most efficient/least water 
use). 
 
He's exactly right if you are in a chemical plant and use cooling water 24 hrs 
per day and cooler capacity, etc efficiency is your focus. However, for a given
size cooler this is the most inefficient way to run it in terms of throughput 
of
output cooled to a certain temperature if throughput, and not water saving, is 
your focus. 
 
> Common wisdom on the HBD seems to be run at full throttle checking the temp 
> of the wort every so often. 
 
Yep.  If by "full throttle" you mean the cooling water stream is UN-throttled 
and running at its fastest speed. Try to get the temperature down to 70F or so 
by passing the cooling water through an icebath if necessary or by restricting 
the wort flow rate if you have a short cooler. 
 
Getting a low temperature quickly is the focus here. 
- --------------------------------------------------------------- 
From: Matthew Taylor <mtaylor at mail.valverde.edu> 
 
>Subject: Corn as an adjunct 
>I was going to use some 6-row and put the dried kernels into the mash without 
>the cob. Do I need to 
>modify the corn in anyway? Should I try to malt the corn, or boil it first? Do
>I need to crack the kernels before I add 
>them to the mash?  Any other ideas? 
 
Matt, I use Grits as my source if corn, so I don't have direct experience with 
whole dried corn kernels in a conventional mash. Whole corn will have a lot of 
oil and other things in it and unless you grind and boil it before you mash it,
you won't be too happy with the results. I would crush it as best I could, put 
two pounds of  crushed  malt in with the corn and give it a goods mash, 
culminating in a boil prior to the main mash. Alternatively, give the corn a 
short boil first, add cool water and then 2# of mash, mash at say 150F and then
finish with a second boil.  Let us know how it works. 
- ------------------------------------------------------------ 
Keep on brewin' 
 
 
Dave Burley 
Kinnelon, NJ 07405 
103164.3202 at compuserve.com 
 

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From: 
Date: 
Subject: [none]


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From: habanero at juno.com (Raymond P Kasprowicz)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 03:07:09 EST
Subject: What's the best way to clean out a (dirty) Cornelius KEG

Thanks to everyone that responded to my thread about the BALL and PIN 
lock. It has been helpful. I got a PIN lock for $15.00 and is pretty old. 
The date stamped says 11/1970, so I'd say that's pretty old. 
 
I noticed that the inside isn't very shiny at all. Seems like oxidation 
or something. If I take a screwdriver and scrape the inside I see silver. 
So what is this crap ? Is it oxidation ? How do I get rid of it ? Bleach 
doesn't work either. 
 
I already tried scrubbing out with a brill o pad and ajax, but that 
attempt was futile. There has got to be a better way. 
 
Are some Firestone brand kegs lined with something, as it would seem due 
to the amount ? Should I worry about this or what ? 
 
BTW I also picked up a almost new aluminum 20 pound CO2 tank for $40, 
pretty good huh ? It was just HYDRO'd in 7/96. Cleaned up real nice, 
polished it. 

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From: priest at mile.enet.dec.com
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 96 12:40:28 MET
Subject: Beer and Skittles

 
David R. Burley writes: 
 
>Brewsters: 
> 
>>     I guess I can forgive the one non-brewing post as we need something 
>>     to remind us that not everything is skittles and beer (what the heck 
>>    are skittles anyway, I mean the saying predates the candy by that 
>>   name?). 
> 
>Skittles is a now disappeared British pub game in which a ball, tied  by a 
>string to a supported rod perpendicular to a table, is used to knock over 
>miniature ninepins on the table, like a table bowling game, except you get two
>passes one forward, the other back.  I also think the name applies to a real 
>sized nine-pin game where you rolled balls or slid a disk, but have never seen
>one in a pub.  Socially, skittles filled the same niche as that long 
>shuffleboard table with the steel pucks and sand on a hardwood table did in 
the
>US - until electronic games came around. Personally, I liked the skittles and 
>the shuffleboard and most of the beer back then, but then I'm just an old 
>romantic, I guess. I can't imagine what Skittles (R) the candy and beer would 
>taste like! 
 
Skittles is actually the name of the nine-pin bowling game, still popular 
in many parts of the UK. Although less common than once, many pubs, 
particularly in the West of England, have their own alleys, and skittles 
leagues still thrive. 
 
The table-top version is more correctly known as "bar skittles" and has 
by no means disappeared. 
 
Candy and beer ? Yuk ! 
 
Jim 
 

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From: Chris P Crigger <chris_p.crigger at twva.med.navy.mil>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 07:29:22 -0500
Subject: SA Triple Bock

I am looking for SA Triple Bock. Anyone near VA (Williamsburg) 
know where I would be able to find any. I have been scouring 
micro sections everywhere!!!! 
 
Also, I have gotten some skunky Steinlager, could this be from the 
light going through the green bottle, while on the store shelf? 
Last time I bought it, I bought it warm and it wasn't as skunkish. 
The light in that section also wasn't as intense as the refrigerated 
section. 
 
chris 

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From: Terry Selba <taselba at dgs.dgsys.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 07:58:47 -0500
Subject: Quick question

Delurking homebrewer with a whole year under his belt.  (Literally) 
 
I have a batch ready to bottle this weekend, but for the first time I'm 
seeing something I've never seen before.  There is a thin milky-white 
film floating at the top of my carboy that covers the entire surface. 
 
I was waiting for the bottles to materialize, so it's been sitting in 
secondary for a little longer than I normally leave it. 
 
I hate to ask the obvious, but IMBR? 
 
TIA, 
Terry 

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From: Charles Burns <cburns at spider.lloyd.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 04:58:36 -0800
Subject: re:Squeezin dem grains

Greg Noonan states in latest book "never squeeze the grain bag". Not 
that I agree with everything in his book, but this statement makes sense 
re:"unwanteds being squeezed out...". 
 
Charley 

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From: John Miller {83802} <jwm at swl.msd.ray.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 08:48:25 -0500
Subject: HDB

**lurker mode OFF 
 
Did anybody notice that the last HBD had more postings than the 
contents listed?  Mike, your digest is in need of fixing. 
 
Cheers, 
 
~John Miller 
 
**lurker mode ON 

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From: ajdel at mindspring.com (A. J. deLange)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:48:49 -0500
Subject: Beer O2 and Skittles

Dave Burley commented on skittles: skittles was actually a bowling game 
("nine pins") which has since devolved into "skittle pool" which is alive 
and well in British Pubs (at least I remember somehow being conned into a 
game in one of the Firkin pubs after I had had too many Firkin pints). The 
skittles were the pins and still are but these are now miniature things 
only about 4 inches high. In the current (and this does not mean modern) 
game the table (about the size of a pin ball nmachine) has nine holes: five 
in a row at the back and four in a diamond in the center. The four center 
holes are high score holes and each has a skittle placed in front of it. 
Two more skittkles protect the rear row. The object is to get the balls 
into the holes without knocking the skittles over (just the opposite of the 
original game in which the object was to knock all the skittles over with 
the fewest throws). The skittles have a cross dowel so they won't go down 
the holes if knocked into them. Direct shots are not allowed i.e. one may 
not hit the target ball directly with the cue. 
 
 * ** * *  * * * * * * * * * * * 
 
In the same posting Dave mentions that he had seen that O2 levels in the 
teens were toxic to yeast. I tend to doubt that. Air saturated wort at less 
than about 10C is at levels in the teens. I certainly aerate into the teens 
every time I brew and clearly Dion is getting into the teens with his 
method of aeration. My gut feel (do you ever feel like a yeast?) is that it 
is at 40 or more mg/L that trouble might start. 
 
Now here's an interesting tidbit from Reed and Nagodawithana (Yeast 
Technology). In discussing aeration of yeast propagators they publish a 
curve which shows the amount of glucose consumed per unit biomass of yeast 
produced as a function of the percentage of oxygen sparged through the 
propagator. This curve has a minimum (where the production of yeast is 
maximized) which spans 28 to 34% O2. Presumably the sparge stream is at 
atmospheric plus whatever is necessary to overcome the hydrostatic head. 
This data, if applicable to our yeasts, suggests that oxgenation past the 
34% level may actually be defeating our espoused purpose of maximizing 
yeast growth just after pitching. Ponder that! 
 
A. J. deLange 
- - Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore. 
Please Note New e-mail Address 
 
 

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From: "OMAHONEY, LARRY -LLOM" <LLOM at chevron.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 05:56:00 -0800
Subject: Yeasts and Malted Buckwheat

Anyone have pros and cons on using the Wyeast American II yeast (I think 
it is #1272)? I've been pleased with the Wyeast #1056 for my ales, and I 
am wondering if there is any advantage to switching to the American II. 
Do they have different flavors, fermentation rates, flocculation rates, 
temperature preferences, etc. 
 
Also, I have a friend who must have gluten-free products, but she misses 
her beer. There's a gluten-free beer receipe at 
 
http://www.beerstuff.com/ 
 
which calls for malted buckwheat. I don't want to malt my own, so does 
anyone know of a source for malted buckwheat? 

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From: Fred Waltman <waltman at netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 06:23:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Torrified Wheat

 
Nathan asks about torrified wheat in HBD#2266 (otherwise known as the 
None[] Digest): 
 
Torrified wheat should be mashed. It has no enzymes so it needs to be 
mashed with some grain that does. Think of it in the same way you would 
flaked wheat. 
 
Fred Waltman 
waltman at netcom.com 
http://www.homebrew.inter.net 
 

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From: jay at ro.com (Jay Reeves)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 08:26:50 -0600
Subject: Re: CP fillers & Flame Cabinets

 
Third times a charm.  This has been ate twice so far by the "(none) gnome". 
 
>>In HBD2263, David Burley comments on building his counter-pressure bottle 
>>filler: 
>> 
>>>I 
>>>proceeded to build my own. It took quite a number of stops at various 
plumber's 
>>>suppliers, hobby shops and hardware stores to get all the connections. 
>>(snipage) 
>>>In summary, it was a lot of work and the cost just about the same as if I 
had 
>>>purchased one already assembled. 
>> 
>>Not sure what you built, but mine cost all of $14 and about 30 minutes 
>>of construction time.  I only had to go to Home Depot and a hydraulic 
>>hose shop (look in the yellow pages under "Hose Couplings & Fittings"). 
>>It has 2 ball valves, a bleeder valve and works like a charm. I simply rinse 
>>it with water after use, run sanitizer thru it and store it open and dry. 
>> 
>>>I would make a minor modification which 
>>>will allow me to fill tall (quarts) and short (12 oz) bottles. I made these 
>>>changes on the one I built. 
>> 
>>A vinyl tube extension slid over the filler tube works perfect. 
>> 
>>>The only skill 
>>>required is three hands! 
>> 
>>I've seen this statement in several places and I can't seem to see why this 
>>statement is made.  I don't seem to have any trouble whatsoever.  Maybe 
>>I'm using mine "wrong" or maybe I'm just talented (doubtful on the last 
>>"maybe"), but the technique I use produces no foam, very little loss of CO2 
>>and I've never seen a need for a "third" hand.  Can someone enlighten me as 
>>to why one needs a "third" hand? 
>> 
>>----------------- 
>> 
>>I'm thinking of building a "Flame Cabinet" to store my oxygen tank 
>>and propane tanks in.  They've been in the garage out in the open 
>>and I've been getting a little parinoid of late about leaks 
>>and collecting gases (I don't need to hear from the "well you 
>>should be"'s). 
>> 
>>I'm going to build a small enclosure against one of the walls of my 
>>garage and vent it to the outside as a true flame cabinet would.  There 
>>will be access doors to the inside of the garage and they will be 
>>airtight.  Can anyone give me any suggestions or cautions other 
>>than "don't store them inside"? 
>> 
>>                        -Jay Reeves 
>>                        Hunstville, Alabama, USA 
>> 
> 
 

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From: bill-giffin at juno.com (Bill Giffin)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 10:30:51 cst
Subject: Calcium in the Mash

Good morning all, 
 
How much calcium is required?  I have brewed beers using German Pils 
malt, German Munich and Vienna malts, English pale malts, and American 2 
and 6 row malts all with very good efficiency and all with out adding 
calcium to the mash.  My water may have 5 ppm of calcium but that would 
be the max.  I do get my mash to 5.3 pH one way or another but I do not 
add calcium. 
 
How do you know if the alpha amylase and the beta amylase are stable?  I 
can't see the little darlings going about their work.  All I know is I 
get good efficiency and the appropriate final gravities on my beers and I 
am HAPPY with the results. 
 
Bill 

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From: TheTHP at aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 09:48:02 -0500
Subject: Did I pitch Dead Yeast?

This week We made an Election Day Bock, all grain RIMS 27 Lb grain bill! What 
a monster. We labored from 10 in the morning to 8:00 at night with this 
monster (ala Daryl Riechman) and after fighting stuck sparges, pump failures 
and boilovers the forces of good  wound up with just over 12 gal of 1.068 
wort!!! Thats the good news. The bad news is we pitched with 1 liter starters 
(each 6.5 gal carboy & open fermenting keg) started from slurry from my 
Ocktoberfest primary. (Wyeast Bavarian) PROBLEM: NO ACTIVITY! I was very 
careful in handling the yeast. Initially I just shook the remaining beer in 
the carboy and poured into a  sanitized 1 liter wide mouth PET bottle screwed 
on the sanitized cap and put it in the lagering fridge along with my keged 
ocktoberfest. A few weeks later I added some wort (DME and water) and chilled 
then Popped on an air lock and back to the lager fridge it went. More time 
passed. A week before brewing I took it out of the fridge covered it with a 
towel in a dark part of the kitchen figuring it take off in the warmer 
temperature. I got a little action. Not much. 2 days before brewing I split 
the culture added more chilled wort. Still no "High Krausening" but some 
bubbling present. Went ahead and pitched. Now 2 days later no bubbling no 
nothing. 
 
Q1 - What happened? 
Q2 - Not having any decent lager yeast on hand what should I do 
Q3 - What effect does having Unfermented wort just sitting around have on the 
wort? 
Q4 - Should I go purchase a smack pack wait 36hrs till its ready then pitch? 
Or should is it more important to pitch something now? 
Q5 - should I go to the local brew pub for lunch and beg for mercy and some 
yeast? 
Q6 - If I used a dry ale yeast What kind of beer would result? BockelStout? 
 
Please some chastising and advice is badly needed, Help!! 
 
Phil Wilcox 
Poison Frog Home Brewery 

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From: U18183 at UICVM.UIC.EDU
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 96 08:50:14 CST
Subject: Re: Microkegs

 
  In HBD 2265, Bruce Taber writes about 2L Microkegs: 
>  I built a kegging system using 2 liter (65oz) PET soft drink bottles. 
> Sounds crazy?  Well can't say I'd argue with you.  But it allows me to 
> have two types of beer on tap in my kitchen fridge and it takes up less 
> space than two rows of bottles.  Each micro-keg holds about 6 servings. 
> They are easy to handle, clean, and fill, and they are FREE. 
 
   I also have a kegging system and have lost my refrigerator in a 
marriage sacrifice.  I bought a Carbonator cap recently, and a similar 
system to Bruce's has been running through my mind, but I have yet to 
figure out exactly how to do it.... 
 
   Bruce has a 3 way valve coming out of the cap.  Instead, I thought 
of  making a bunch of caps with tire valves, and designing some sort 
of spigot device for the bottom of each 2L bottle. 
   Maybe some cheesy ASCII graphics would help explain (a feature 
   notable missing from the HBD these days....)  : 
 
            [[====  <----- air chuck to CO2 tank 
             | 
             |    <----   Valve stem 
           |---| 
           |   |  <------- cap 
         /      \ 
         |       | 
         |       | 
         |       | % 
         |      =====   <----- spigot 
         |-------| 
 
 
 
   This way, one could bottle the entire batch and force carbonate. 
Then, when dispensing time came, just hook the CO2 to the cap/tire 
valve assembly, and dispense at 5 PSI or whatever.  This system also 
has the advantage of portability, in that you could just dispense 
directly from the spigot and have gravity dispense the beer. 
 
   Only one probem I see, and I havent been able to figure it out. 
How do you place some type of spigot or spigot-type device in a 2L 
bottle?   I seem to remember a long ago discussion in the HBD  about 
the difficulty of putting a spigot in glass carboy - and someone 
did come up with a solution (I think).   Anyone have any ideas to 
get a leak proof seal? 
 
- -Paul 
Paul Sovcik, Western Springs  , IL         PJS at uic.edu 

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From: Dave Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 08:53:02 -0800
Subject: re: Calcium and Enzymes

In HBD2266, Dave Burley continues the discussion on the effect of 
calcium on mashing: 
<lots of snippage; hope I'm preserving the core of the thread w/o 
wasting bandwidth> 
 
> DW - For 2 years, I brewed with r/o water with no added salts. Calcium level 
> was essentially nil. 
> 
> DRB - Not quite true, the malt supplies about 10-30 ppm as my best guess. 
 
Could well be true, but my point was that my WATER had no Ca, whereas 
you generally see  recommendations that brewing water be in the range 
50-100 ppm.  If you want to count 30 ppm Ca in the grain, the 
recommended total Ca range would then be 80-130 ppm.  It's just book 
keeping; what's important is that changing Ca concentration had a big 
effect for me. 
 
<major snip, where DRB makes the point that alpha and beta don't 
compete, but that beta depends on alpha for substrate.  DRB then 
continues:> 
 
> Since we don't have your numbers on efficiency I can guess that perhaps the 
>limiting factor on your efficiency is the milling of the malt. 
> 
> To put it more succinctly - For a situation in which the limiting factor is 
> alpha stability, low concentrations of calcium will produce a lower 
efficiency
> of conversion of starch. Or as I said in my original exposition: If the 
starch
> is still around after the alpha is gone it will result in a lower efficiency 
- -
> or something like that. 
 
I'll have to go back and read Dr. Fix's book again and remind myself of 
the details of the alpha and beta substrate selectivity.  I have a 
little trouble totally accepting this explanation since it predicts a 
drop of efficiency that I don't observe. It does make sense that if 
something other than enzymes were limiting my efficiency, the predicted 
drop might be masked.  However, I'm skeptical that milling is a limiting 
factor in my process. 
 
I use H-B pale ale malt as my base malt, with a conversion time of 60 
minutes.  I mill using a fixed gap JSP Maltmill.  I get 29-31 pt*gal/lb 
in both r/o and 100 ppm Ca water.  If you assume a theoretical yield of 
35 pt*gal/lb, this corresponds to efficiencies of 83-89%. The extraction 
numbers appear to be randomly distributed, N=8 for r/o water, N=4 for 
the 100 ppm Ca water, with no obvious trend between the two water 
flavors. 
 
> DRB - Again, many of these enzyme concentration and activity issues don't 
exist with
> high enzyme malts like they do with low enzyme malts. 
 
Agreed, and most malts these days are high enzyme.  However, I'm still 
trying to understand how my efficiency can be invarient, but my 
attenuation change dramatically upon changing [Ca]. 
 
I'm going to be out of town for a few days; I hope this thread is still 
going when I come back.  At any rate, I look forward to reading more 
thoughts and experiences; I'd like to understand these enzymatic 
processes better. 
 

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From: mikey at waste.com (Michael A. Owings)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 16:09:57 GMT
Subject: Replacement Oxynator tanks

Reposted due to  Subject: [none] bug ... 
 
This question has been asked before on the HBD,  but a search of back 
issues reveals no answers:  is there a cheaper  source for Oxynator 
replacement canisters other than Liquid Bread?  At 12 bucks a pop, 
they're rather expensive.   I have considered going to a small O2 tank 
and regulator,  but these are still pretty high. 
 
Another datapoint on aeration with oxygen:  I have had consistent 
under-attenuation problems with my lagers (ales have been OK) until 
switching to O2 aeration.  My prior methods of aeration included: 
 
- - Shaking the fermentor 
- - a wort "spray" nozzle 
- - aquarium air pump w/ inline filter (lousy air stone,  though). 
 
I always pitch lagers with a 3.5 liter starter. 
 
On my last batch I switched to the Oxynator and after 4 days it is 
apparent that the beer will fully attenuate.  Besides,  it only takes 
about 2 minutes to use the thing,  cutting valuble time off of my brew 
day. 
 
I cannot say for sure whether the O2 aeration is actually responsible 
for the improved (and indeed seemingly quicker) fermentation,  since I 
changed a number of brewing procedures for this last batch,  but I DO 
suspect that the more thorough aeration has played at least a major 
role. 
*********************** 
Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. 
The courage to change the things I can. *** And the wisdom to 
hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they pissed 
me off *** 

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From: RUst1d? <rust1d at li.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 10:46:18 -0800
Subject: Multi-mashing

Name:   Barleytooth                     O.G.:  1.107 
Style:  Barley Wine                   I.B.U.:  98.8 
Volume: 10.0 gallons                  A.B.V.: 10.5% 
 
Grains/Fermentables        Lbs   Hops                  AAU     Oz  Min 
Pale, American 2 Row     23.00   Centeninal           11.3   1.50   60 
Munich, Belgian           5.00   Centeninal           11.3   1.50   45 
Biscuit, Belgian          4.00   Centeninal           11.3   1.50   30 
Oats, Flaked              3.00   Cascade               5.9   1.50   15 
Crystal 80, American      3.00   Cascade               5.9   1.50    0 
Chocolate, American       1.00 
Barley, Roasted           0.50   Miscellaneous Ingredients 
Black Roast, American     0.50   Irish Moss - 2 Tsp. 
 
Yeast: American Ale Sludge 
 
I am formulating a barley wine to brew as a 1 year brewing/birthday 
kinda thing. Please review and comment. 
 
I plan on doing two mashes with this brew. The main mash will consist 
of everything except 5 lbs of pale and 5 lbs of munich, which will be 
mashed in a second vessel. I plan on mashing in the 30lb mash at 122F, 
and mashing in the 10lb mash at 155F. After the small mash has reached 
saccharification,  I would proceed to boil it for 30 mins and then add 
it back to the main mash which would be then raised to 158F to convert. 
 
The small mash is done to avoid having to decoct and to attempt to get 
more maltiness by boiling all the munich malt. 
 
- -- 
John Varady           http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady/index.html 
Boneyard Brewing Co.           "The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program" 
                                             "Ale today, Gone tomorrow." 

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From: Brad Anesi <BANESI at novell.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 08:24:27 -0700
Subject: Boston Beer Massacre

Dear Dateline, 
 
I had meant to send this off to you quite some time ago, but after hearing 
some of the recent Anheuser-Busch radio commercials I was quickly 
re-motivated. 
 
As an avid beer connoisseur, I anxiously awaited your much-publicized 
program covering the micro-brew industry.  Unfortunately, I was quite 
disappointed by the lack of research and the one-sided approach you 
took to this topic.  And while I understand your need as a profit-driven 
organization to cater to one of your largest advertisers 
(Anheuser-Busch), at what point do you leave all journalistic integrity 
behind and become nothing more than a glorified info-mercial? 
 
Clearly, this piece was lacking in real research.  Was the history of the 
brewing industry discussed?  No.   Was there any mention of the fact 
that people like Fritz Maytag and Jim Koch have saved us from the bland, 
generic, cheaply produced products which companies like 
Anheuser-Busch had left us with as our only (non)choice?  No.  And, 
most importantly, was it even mentioned that the ingredients and recipe 
are the most important factors in how a beer tastes?  Unbelievably, NO! 
If the unsuspecting public is to believe Dateline/Anheuser-Busch, you 
would have us believe that the most important issue is where the beer is 
produced!  Why does this matter at all??? 
 
Several months ago when Dateline increased the number of weekly 
shows and went head-to-head with 60 minutes, Mike Wallace was 
asked to comment.  When he suggested Dateline's quality might suffer 
due to a diluted research effort, I chalked it up to competitive pressure.  It 
would now appear Mr. Wallace knew exactly what he was talking about. 
 
Respectfully, 
 
Brad Anesi 
 

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From: BRIAN F. THUMM <THUMMBF at GWSMTP.NU.COM>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:31:32 -0500
Subject: Spaten Optimator

How can I retain the malty sweetness of the dark Spaten Optimator?  What is it 
that gives it such a characteristic flavor?  Is it cara-pils? 
 
 

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From: paa3765 at dpsc.dla.mil (Steve Adams)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 96 11:35:06 est
Subject: RE:  Too Much Yeast/Second Runnings

Re:  HBD # 2266 
 
Antone and others: 
 
I usually pitch the just about all of the yeast from a five gallon batch (1/2 a
quart?) with no ill results.  I believe some of you advise pitching far less, 
but I would like to hear some opinions from people with background or experienc
e in this area. I've read several places where it is difficult for homebrewers 
to actually overpitch. 
 
Second Runnings: 
 
This was a customary practice at one time. 
 
Steve Adams 
 
 
 

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From: dwhitel at neusun.agen.okstate.edu (Derek P. Whitelock)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:27:16 -0600
Subject: Re:Relationship btwn immersion Chiller outfow & wort temp 

Mike: 
There are equations and correlations, but that's a road that can take the 
fun out of brewing in a flash.  I think that you can assume that the 
temperature of the exiting water is the same as the wort temperature if your 
chiller is long.  The best way to determine if you can make this assumption 
is to use you chiller, allow some water to flow into an insulated cup, 
measure the temperature of the water in the cup and the temperature of your 
wort.  Remember stirring the wort will enhance heat transfer, but also 
contamination. 
 
 

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From: M257876 at sl1001.mdc.com (BAYEROSPACE)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:40 -0600
Subject: liquid isinglass

collective homebrew conscience: 
 
i've got some liquid isinglass that i bought at the homebrew store.  i've kept 
it cold in the refrigerator for a while, but i need to use it on my hazy 
beer. 
 
it came with no instructions and i didn't ask the guy at the store. 
 
how do i use it?  are there any pitfalls i should avoid?  i've read about the 
dry isinglass that you have to mix up ahead of time, but this stuff i have is 
different. 
 
brew hard, 
 
mark bayer 

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From: "Gregory, Guy J." <GGRE461 at ecy.wa.gov>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 96 09:54:00 PST
Subject: Grist Size vs. Efficiency

 
David R. Burley, in HBD 2265 writes: 
 
"Grist size is of course a major factor in efficiency as I have shown in a 
recent submission to HBD.  This can only be due to the slow rate of 
conversion of 
starch to soluble starch and sugars by the alpha amylase.  In this case, the 
 
alpha and beta disappear before the starch and the efficiency suffers. If 
this 
were not the case and the alpha were present but the beta wasn't , then low 
OG 
resulting from poorly ground batches would exhibit a higher FG than normal 
batches. To my knowledge and my experience, this is not the case, just lower 
 
alcohol. This says the beta is around long enough to convert the LMW 
starches 
to sugars, as well as the alpha producing some. I can only presume from my 
reading 
that at lower concentrations of calcium that poor grinds would be even less 
efficient since the alpha wouldn't be around so long. " 
 
Sorry to parachute in on this interesting thread but I have a  question: why 
could not low efficiency for large grist sizes be due to lower overall 
surface area available for  reaction of mash liquor and grain? Couldn't 
alpha and beta be available, and disappear as you suggest, in larger overall 
grist size distributions,  but the result be unextractable because of the 
problems of extracting the goodies from the interior of the grain? Is there 
data indicating alpha amylase rate vs. grain size?  Is the alpha amylase in 
the grain, the mash liquor, or both? 
 
 My questions come from experience with leaching chemicals of all kinds, 
wherein an optimum grain size of substrate can often be found which balances 
the increased chemical reactivity of smaller grain sizes with the physical 
ability to extract the leachate over a reasonable time.  Perhaps I'm 
oversimplifying.  Your reply is appreciated. 
 
GuyG4 at aol.com 
Guy Gregory 
Lightning Creek Home Brewery 
 

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From: mikehu at lmc.com
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 96 10:13:58 PST
Subject: Sugar concentrations in wort

Greetings - 
I present myself to the oracle of brewing knowledge with a question - 
Does anyone out there know of any way to convert the readout of a 
glucose meter to specific gravity? I have heard of people using a 
glucose meter to check the progress of their ferment, because it 
reads much more accurately than a hydrometer, thus allowing them to 
see when the ferment is done. I'm pretty sure that a glucose meter 
can be used to determine O.G. and F.G., I just need to find out how 
to convert to specific gravity. While, I'm asking, what units does 
a glucose meter read out? Is it PPM of glucose? Or is it the percentage 
of glucose present in the solution? Al or Jethro can you guys help? 
Mike H. 
Portland Or. 
mikehu at lmc.com 

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From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:20:01 -0500
Subject: Alpha-amyalse & Calcium

My last few posts have been acknowledged and yet not appeared so ... 
 
Bill Griffin commenting on Alk & DavidB's Calcium  issue ... 
 
>>>>Al K had this as point to clarify: 
>1) that in a low-calcium environment you would get "poor efficiency and a 
> 
>   more fermentable wort than expected because the alpha amylase is less 
>   stable than in a higher calcium environment. 
><<< 
> 
>If the pH is correct the alpha amylase will be stable and the efficiency 
>is what you would expect for the malt being used.  You will find that in 
>Principles of Brewing Science in sort of a left handed way. 
 
Low calcium concentrations have an effect on both the activity and 
stability of alpha-amylase.  Check the Springer-Verlag  'Enzyme 
Handbook' entry for alpha-amyalse stability factors, and activity 
co-factors. This is really well established stuff.  A suspect you are 
reading too much in between the lines. 
 
Interestingly very low calcium concentrations irreversible denature 
cereal AA.  The mechanism suggested is that active alpha-amylase can 
reversibly lose a calcium ion, but in the case of cereal alpha-amyase 
the reduced alpha-amylase will spontanteously and irreversible change 
form into an apo-enzyme labelled here AA* 
 
  AA+Ca <-> AA,Ca   -> AA*,Ca 
                active    inactive   denatured 
 
Similar denaturing of mammal alpha-amyase, like human salivary or 
liver alpha-amyase occurs, but this denaturing can be reversed by an 
increase in calcium concentration. 
 
I intended to post a followup to my previous Alpha-amyalse/Calcium 
post and I guess this is the opportunity.  I've been reading a pair 
of papers, one on Ca requirements of alpha-amylase, the other on the 
relation of the various enzymes and iso-enzymes in starch granule 
degradation.  Putting these together gives a counter-intuitive 
conclusion. 
 
Between the two different AA iso-enzymes one binds much more tightly 
to the required Ca2+ ions.  This is (of course) the low iso-electric 
point AA.  At 25C and pH=7.0, the hi isoelectric point AA (AMY2) 
starts denaturing from calcium loss below 1.2ppm Ca. the low 
isoelectric point AA survives until the Ca concentration drops to 
about 0.12 ppm.  The required Ca levels for staability WILL increase 
at higher temps and lower pH values, tho it isn't clear by how much 
since I don't have the rate consstants for the denaturization reaction 
indicated above.  Plzen water, or deionized water may be low enough in 
calcium to 'trip' AMY2. 
 
Both types of AA are present in substantial quantities in the barley 
variety under test in the paper (sorry not at hand).  And both AAs 
have similar diastatic power when it comes to breaking 1-4 links in 
hydrolized starch. *BUT* the low isoelectric point alpha amyase is 
about 15 times more effective at degrading starch granules !! 
 
What does this mean ?  If your Ca drops low enough to denature the 
AMY2, it still won't impact the starch granule hydrolysis until the Ca 
concentration drops by another order of magnitude and destroys the 
AMY1.  It's probable that low Ca concentrations will slow the creation 
of new non-reducing starch ends for beta-amyase to work on, but it may 
not affect yield.  Sufficiently low Ca will probably slow creation of 
fermentables, but probably not have a significant impact on yeild. 
This is counter-intuitive and somewhat speculative. 
 
Steve Alexander 

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