(formerly Volume 02 : Number 034)



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Contents:
  growing up?
  Planispiral chiller, no thanks.
  Re>Heineken Recipe 
  Re: Cont. Fermentation
  RE: Special-B and HB Shop owners
  Tannins - in the mouth of the observer.
  Re: Planispiral "boiler"
  Braukunst Problems (Bill Coleman, MaltyDog at aol.com)
  Re: Wyeast 2206 fermentation  -- Jim Bentson
  Re: mixed yeast culturing (Steve Cloutier)
  Growing Hops
  ESB and method
  Single decoction?
  Priming
  tempering of malt -jim booth
  suggestion to the janitor
  Storing Flaked Barley
  Yeast re-pitching  (Alex Santic)
  Kettle Mashing, et al.
  Wyeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity
  Re: White Labs Yeast
  Koelsch yeast behavior
  thoughts on mead
  Fermenting the commercial way


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:35:34 -0600
From: lheavner at tcmail.frco.com
Subject: growing up?

     Greetings,
     
     I was satisfied for many years brewing extract based ales.  I had 
     become reasonably competent and very relaxed.  Recently, I have moved 
     to lagers and all-grain.  The results are beginning to come in and I 
     have some questions/comments.
     
     My first lager was an extract based O'fest.  It was pretty tastey and 
     is practically all gone.  However, in the last few bottles, I have 
     noticed a "dusty" flavor/aroma.  I suppose this could be HSA, but it 
     isn't exactly wet cardboard.  I did a full 5 gal boil and I FWH'ed 
     with some old marginal Hallertauer that had been nitrogen sealed, but 
     not kept well refrigerated.  The yeast was Wyeast Munich and 
     fermentation 1 wk at 51 DegF, racked to 2ndary, 2 days at 59, then 6 
     wks at 34, then bottled.  Bottles have been kept below 60, usually 
     below 45 for over 2 months.  Any ideas what the "dustiness" is?  I've 
     heard that both yeast/fermentation problems and stale hops could do 
     this.
     
     I lagered an all grain Rauschbier and bottled after 6 wks at 34.  I 
     failed to suck up any yeast sediment from the 2ndary when racking to 
     bottling bucket.  It's been 3 weeks and the bottles are all flat.  They 
     have been kept in the upper 40's and lower 50's.  Yeast was Wyeast 
     Bavarian.  Will they ever condition/carbonate?  Any recommendations?  
     The beer tastes better than I expected - or I should say that I like 
     smoked beer more than I expected.  But I'm not sure I can drink or give 
     away 2 cases of flat Rauschbier.
     
     I made an all grain IPA and put it in my nifty new lagering fridge with 
     temp control to ferment at 62.  We keep the house a bit warmer than 
     that and I don't have a basement.  Well the fridge is in an unheated 
     garage and we got a lovely ice storm 4 days into the fermentation.  I 
     don't think that fermenter has seen the warm side of 50 in over a week. 
      I haven't taken an SG, but I'm sure it's not done. If not, will it 
     start back up when the temperature recovers?  Should I do anything 
     special, like stir it or bring it indoors to warm up?  Yeast is Wyeast 
     London Ale.  I'm ready to build one of Ken Schwartz's "ale cellers" and 
     keep it inside for cold weather brewing.
     
     Any feedback or comments are appreciated as I move up the learning 
     curve.
     
     Regards,
     
     Lou Heavner
     <lheavner at frmail.frco.com>

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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:01:27 EST
From: "Darren Scourfield UK(UTC 00:00)" <dscourfi.ford at e-mail.com>
Subject: Planispiral chiller, no thanks.

I use a 5 gallon (UK) electric boiler that has a radius of about 150 mm and a   
normal helical immersion chiller made from 10 mm tubing.  This chiller has      
13 turns of 100 mm radius, which equates to 8.2 m of tube in the liquid.        

For a planispiral chiller:-                                                     

The straight length of a spiral = 2 * pi * r * n  (r=mean coil radius).         

If we assume the starting (smallest) radius to be 40 mm and leave a 2 mm gap    
between tubes (required to allow liquid to flow past tubes), after 7 turns      
the radius is 124 mm.  This leaves a 20 mm gap around the outside of the        
spiral to allow liquid to recirculate above the chiller.                        

Using the above equation this equals 3.6 m of tube in the liquid.               

This means I currently have 2.3 times the amount of tube cooling the liquid     
than I could have with a "super-dooper" planispiral chiller.                    

Are planispiral chillers 2.3 times more efficient?  I doubt it!  I think        
I'll stick with my old fashioned helical chiller thanks and rock it gently      
from side to side.                                                              

At least until I get a boiler that's 8 inches deep and 3 feet wide, ;-)         

Comments?                                                                       

Darren                                                                          
Essex, England.                                                                 

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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:05:30 -0800
From: Mark Thompson <mark_thompson at hp.com>
Subject: Re>Heineken Recipe 

I just and to answer this cause i tried several times
to make one.  here's something close to what i used.

`Stinky' Pilsner (aka Heineken)

for 22liters / 5 gallons # converted
4.2 kg/ 8# Pilsner malt (Durst)
0.6 kg/1# Corn grits (Flaked Maze)
200 g/6oz Pale Crystal malt (Cara Pils DWC)
45g/1.6oz Hersbruck (4%)
Liquid lager yeast (2124)

Mash schedule:
1 Strike with water of 62C/143F, to reach a mash temp of 53C/127F, rest
15'.
2 Take 1/3 of the mash and carefully heat to 70C/158F. rest 15'.
3 Heat the partial mash to boiling and boil 35'. *
4 Add back to the mash tun. Temperature should be 64C/147F. rest 20'.
5 Take 1/3 of the mash and boil 15'.
6 Add back to the mash tun. Temperature should be 70C/158F. 
  rest until converted.
*You can add part of the corn in this stage.
Sparge
Bring to boil
Add boiling hops.
Boil for 90'
Cool to 50F.
Pitch a large starter.

After appr. 2 weeks transfer to secondary, cool to 3-7C/37-44F.
Lager for about 2-4 months (depending on the temperature).
Keg.


I got this recipie from someone on the net but don't have a
name in the file anymore.
- -- 
*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*
Mark E. Thompson mailto:mark_thompson at hp.com 
Internet Technology Lab West
Hewlett-Packard Co. Cupertino CA 
*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*

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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:21:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Subject: Re: Cont. Fermentation

i will say three words about this:

IMMOBILIZED YEAST REACTOR.

no, not the bead/donut variety - either. 
look for something to be written soon in MBAA Tech qtrly
regarding ceramic candles once used for tangential filtration.

as a general rule - brew today, ferment tommorrow, rack the day after
and separate, carbontae or not and bottle.  3 day beer.  i have had 
some by this method and it (well was a big beer) was real good.
could not tell the difference between the normal/continuous.
what is nice is the fact you start it up for a six month shot, then
take it down, do maint and cleaning, re-inoculate and go.

even a small one can not be done very cheaply, the innoculation/sample
valve is about $500 - $750 alone.  true sanitary/sterile methods are involved.

tis rumored that miller has one in r/d, probably so does the other majors.


nuff said
joe

 
Joe Rolfe onbc at shore.net

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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:40:00 -0600
From: "Sparks, Andrew" <SPARKSA at tyson.com>
Subject: RE: Special-B and HB Shop owners

- --Boundary (ID bMhGexNiGOn0AVRTxzPU9g)
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN


I hate to hear that about your HB Shop owner.
They are not the same at all.  DWC Belgian Aromatic is a sometime   
compared
to biscuit malt and has a nice malty toasty flavor and is light in color.
Special-B is a strange cat, it is made with a process similar to the
way they make crystal malt.  It is very strong!!!  Use it sparingly, I   
would
not use more than 1 / 4  to 1/3 of a pound in any beer.  Don't get me
wrong I love the way it tastes, just be careful.  I use it in Porters.
It has a spicy raisin like flavor, IMHO.
I am the owner of a shop in Arkansas and have found lots of good
information in the digest, but I feel that shop owners get a bad rap.
I guess some shops are just out to screw homebrewers
out of their hard earned cash, but most of us are just homebrewers that
got tired of mail order.  I learn something from my customers almost
everyday, you might try letting them know about their mistake.
 -Andy Sparks
sparksa at tyson.com

- --Boundary (ID bMhGexNiGOn0AVRTxzPU9g)
Content-type: text/plain
Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Hello,

A file called Winmail.dat was attached to this message by MsMail / Ex=
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It is used by Microsoft Mail to determine the order in which attachme=
nts=20
appeared.  Since this Mime attachment may not apply to your Electroni=
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 this
notice. =20

Thank you,

The Tysonet Postmaster

Please feel free to send your comments to:  Postmaster at tyson.com

- --Boundary (ID bMhGexNiGOn0AVRTxzPU9g)--

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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:14:11 -0500
From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Subject: Tannins - in the mouth of the observer.

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 97 13:14:38 CST
From: Brian Bliss <brianb at microware.com>
Subject: Re: decoction

Brian Bliss wrote re decocting munich malt ...
>in a munich beer.  When I have tried this, I have gotten
>tannins so hot they burn your mouth.
.... and later ...
>I would be inclined to agree with the comment that inferior grain
>is the likely culprit.
....
>BTW, I am extremely sensitive to tannins in beer.  My face turns
>a bright red and my breathing gets shallow when I drink an offending

OK - it could be melanoidins or sulphur compounds, but most likely you
are allergic to some of the phenol compounds, perhaps dangerously so.
There is a huge range of sensitivity to polyphenolics.  I would assume
that "tannins so hot they burn ..." is a personal and atypical
reaction to decocted munich malt tho'.

Steve Alexander

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Date: 16 Jan 97 16:15:38 EST
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: Planispiral "boiler"

Brewsters:


> different. I can see it now: out of the RIMS, through the CC cooler and into
the
> continuous fermenter.Hmmmmm.

I was commenting on continuous homebrewing and forgot to include the planispiral
continuous boiler. And of course don't forget the Choreboy trub separator!
- ---------------------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Voice e-mail OK

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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:25:42 -0500 (EST)
From: MaltyDog at aol.com
Subject: Braukunst Problems (Bill Coleman, MaltyDog at aol.com)

Someone back in October had a complaint with the service from Braukunst,
which makes one of the most highly-regarded counterpressure bottle fillers
around. I have to add my two cents to the issue.

Back in October, on the 15th, I sent a money out to them to order a filler
and some odds and ends. The bank informs me that the money order was cashed
on Oct 23. Now here it is, January 16, and no bottle filler!

I actually got someone on the phone over there, twice, once in December, once
the beginning of this month, as hard to do as that is. Both times, I was
assured I would be called if there was any problems, and that my bottle
filler would be sent to me. As noted, I am still waiting.

If you make the best product in the world, it hardly matters if your service
is unprofessional. 

Thanks for the bandwith,

Bill Coleman
MaltyDog at aol.com

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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:25:49 -0500
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at htp.net>
Subject: Re: Wyeast 2206 fermentation  -- Jim Bentson

In V2 #29 Kurt Amann asked:

>I'm using Wyeast 2206 Bavarian lager yeast, so I wouldn't think
>the temperature should be a problem.  I know there's plenty of
>sugar left, because I've tasted the beer and it's still REALLY sweet.
>
>Does anybody know what sort of temperature range these yeasts
>are really capable of handling?  I once used dry yeast at about
>38 F, and they seemed to be pretty happy.  

My copy of the Wyeast product pamphlet gives the temp range for this yeast
as 48 to 58 degs. Your present temp of 40 degs is probably too low. Even the
general temperature range given on the Wyeast package has 46 deg as the low
for lager yeasts. Bet it would wake up if you got it warmer.

BTW I have noticed a number of posts asking about temperatures for Wyeast. I
got the Wyeast pamphlet at my homebrew store. Almost any vendor has copies
for distribution or can make a copy for you. It is on one page and contains
the flavor characteristics, flocculation data, fermenting temp range and
expected % attenuation for each strain. I wouldn't select a Wyeast yeast
without referring to it first.  Unfortunately Wyeast does NOT provide this
information on their packaging. It sure would help the brewer (are you
listening Wyeast??) Maybe an add-on sticker giving the strain specific data
and temperature range could be devised.to replace the general front panel
now in use.
>
- --
Registered ICC User
check out http://www.usefulware.com/~jfoltz

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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:31:41 -0600
From: "Cloutier, Steve" <Steve_Cloutier at ATK.COM>
Subject: Re: mixed yeast culturing (Steve Cloutier)

Greetings!

Brander Roullett in HBD V2 #25:

>In this most recent run i made a super streangth wort, and split it into
>two carboys, and added water to 5 gallons.  in one i pitched Edme Ale
>(no starter, just rehydrated), and in the other i pitched WYeast #1056
>american Ale.  (pre whacked)  the Edme took off like a shot, and the
>Wyeast did nothing, after 24 hours i had some little white spots on the
>surface of my beer.  I panicked, and tossed in a packet of Edme, (no
>rehydration, just tear and pour) and the fermentation took off (albiet a
>little slower, and less furious than the other)  for new years i bottles
>the other one, and racked the mixed yeast one to a secondary.

>My question is about culturing the yeast off the bottom of the secondary
with the mixed yeasts.

>1) Is this a good idea?  (in other words will this produce some new
>varient strain, or yeast mixture, or just be dangerous?)

>2) Are there any commerical yeasts that are mixtures like this?

>3) Why would the #1056 not take off like that?

>Brander Roullett        badger at nwlink.com        www.nwlink.com/~badger/


I did a very similar brew (yeastwise) in October. With the exception of
having used a 1 qt. starter with both the liquid and dry yeasts, the
initial fermentations sound almost identical. I was prepared to mix the
yeasts, but patience won out and I waited for  the 1056 to get going on
it's own (about 24 hours to krauesen).  Gotta work on the oxygenation
thing! 

My limited understanding of yeasts suggests that the Edme dry is
packaged with oxygenators and also is a relatively huge quantity of
yeast cells compared to a Wyeast packet -sans starter.  This would
certainly explain the fast start of the Edme dry, as well as the slow
start of the 1056.   The Edme batch in my experience flocc'ed out out
and finished in less than 36 hours while the 1056 chugged away for about
8 or 9 days.  Not surprisingly, the final gravities reflected this,
1020/1008 respectively.  

While both batches were to my liking, the 1056 was much more balanced,
cleaner tasting and less sweet. Even so, in my experience, for beginning
and intermediate brewers, Edme dry is very dependable and forgiving as
well as being a good emergency back-up.  This is a significant point for
us who are somewhat microbiology challenged.

This was my first 10 gal. all-grain batch, and I will be using this
split technique to compare yeasts as often as I can. It is a great way
 to limit the many variables, and isolate the unique
contributions/characters of the yeast.

I don't imagine any harm can be done by harvesting the mixed yeast
culture, other than not really knowing how it will behave the next time.
 Experimentation is a wonderful thing.

Skol!

Steve Cloutier   Steve_Cloutier at ATK.com

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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:09:38 PST
From: vee12 at juno.com
Subject: Growing Hops

It might be a little soon, but when do we plant our new roots?

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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 97 19:44:57 -0500
From: Michael Gerholdt <gerholdt at ait.fredonia.edu>
Subject: ESB and method

- -- [ From: Michael Gerholdt * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

Phil Olson recently made an ESB and had these comments:

>I'm usually a little heavy-handed on the grain bill, so you might add 10%
>to it.

This sounds backward, Phil, if I'm reading it correctly. You want Chuck to
be even *more* heavy handed?    :)

>Mash temp was a bit low, because the cooler and grain were cold.  I
>ran 170F water thru mash three times to achive a final temp of 154F.

This confused me at first, but now I think I understand ... you added 170^F
water to the grain, drained it, and did the same twice more before the mash
temp reached 154^F.

I'm wondering if this might have washed out some of  your starch and
contributed to the low OG. The HBRCP program reports that your OG should
have been 1.075 with an efficiency of 70%. Your 1.055 is significantly lower
than this.

One of the problems with using a cooler to mash in is that you can't apply
direct heat. However, you certainly can fill it up with hot water ahead of
time. Allowing the grains to assume room temperature for an overnight period
will also help here.
Heating water to 15F higher than the desired mash temp should get you close.

>Mash time was about 45-60 minutes.

Since mashing itself is rather a critical element in the all-grain brewing
process, an uncertainty factor of 25% as to the length of the mash is of
concern. Most of the starch is said to convert to sugar in the first 15
minutes, but a good long mash of 60 - 90 minutes and sometimes longer
definitely improves efficiency. If you did only mash for 45 minutes, this
too may have contributed to your lower than expected OG.

>Slow, 1 hour sparge, yielded about 6 gallons.  Boil for 60 min, add Fuggles
at hot >break (about 15 min). 

Good sparge time. I assume your sparge water was 170^F, since you were
careful not to add water hotter than that to the mash. Adding the hops at 
(that is, after) hot break is good practice; however, I'd recommend that you
boil for 60 minutes after that point, rather than figure it from the
beginning of the boil. This will give better hop utilization.

>Then Goldings and irish moss during last 15 min of boil.

You have 2.5 oz of 3.2% AA Fuggles in for 45 minutes, and .3 oz of 11% AA 
(is that right?) EKG in for 15 minutes. If you want more hop aroma and
flavor, you might want to revamp the hop schedule a bit. For example, .6 oz
of the EKG at 60 minutes, 1 oz of the Fuggles at 15 minutes, .75 oz of the
Fuggles at 10 and 5 minutes will give you a comparable bitterness to your
schedule, but the flavor and aroma of the hops, provided by the lower AA
Fuggles, will be enhanced.

>Quick chill with coils (about 1 hr).

Though I don't think 1 hour is problematically long, it is not considered
"quick."

>(Sometimes I get a yeast pack that doesn't start kicking for 2 maybe 3 days
, so look for minimal out gassing).

Liquid yeast packs really need to be "stepped up" by going through a few
small, progressively larger, fermentations. Increasing the quantity of the
yeast will ensure that lag time is minimal. With a proper amount of yeast to
pitch, you should expect that active, visible fermentation will occur within
hours.

One way of getting around the requirement for a sufficient yeast community
is to introduce O2 into the wort at pitching time. This is second best, but
it is still good. Even so, pitching liquid yeast from the packet is not
sufficient; gotta step up.

I like the temps at which you ferment. After a week in the bottle, if you
are patient to wait 3 more weeks, I'd tend to store even cooler.

>My first tasting:
>- -very dry tasting, but not extremely bitter
>- -no malty taste
>- -nice head retention
>- -med dark brown color
>- -minor hoppy nose
>- -dry finish
>- -no noticable off-tastes
>- -a bit thin in body

>Overall:  very good :)

Phil, I'm writing critically because your recipe looks good. I'm glad you
are pleased, generally, with the results. I hope you'll consider some of my
suggestions and I bet you'll be even happier in the future.

Good brewing,

Michael
- --

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Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:17 +1030
From: "Scarman, Gavin" <gavin.scarman at dsto.defence.gov.au>
Subject: Single decoction?

I want to do a single decoction mash. The recipe I am following says   
"pull the first decoction which should be thick (roughly 2:1) and   
constitute about 40% of the total".

What is meant by "should be thick"?
  "   "   "   "  "roughly 2:1"?
  "   "   "   "  "constitute about 40%"?

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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:45:36 EST
From: John C Peterson <petersonj1 at juno.com>
Subject: Priming

I would like to start a discussion on priming.  I think I goofed with my
first batch and  misinterpreted good advice passed on to me and ended up
priming with Karo Corn Syrup.  I dipped into the bottles early (one week
after priming) and the taste isn't where I was expecting it. I got
adequate carbonation and if poored incorrectly, a good head.   It was a
Edme Molson Ale "kit" made with the one package of yeast it comes with
and malted with 3 additional pounds of dry light malt.

My search for knowledge deals with: Am I limited to the dry corn sugar my
local homebrew shop sells or how does the priming sugar affect the
quality and attributes of an ale?

I've got a new batch ready to bottle in a few days I made from scratch
(out with the kits!) and don't want to "mess" this one up.

BTW, thanks kennyeddy for the encouragement and support.  It was well
needed.

John C. Peterson
Aurora, Colorado
petersonj1 at juno.com
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/6841

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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:10:24 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: tempering of malt -jim booth

Several months ago I reported about tempering pale ale malt with 2 T of
water/lb several hours before milling with my Corona.  Flour millers do
this to reduce the fine particles of bran in the flour.  I since have
done this with 2 row and 6 row malts and it gives the following
characteristics:

	larger cleaner flakes of malt bran
	less dust
	easier grinding
	more grits

Those of you complaining about effort to grind and dust might try
tempering your malt.  I sprinkle the water in as I stir and then cover
to prevent evaporation while it rests.  Apparently some breweries use
wet milling to reduce the explosion hazard but not tempering

I didn't get any reactions from the HBD if it was valid for roller mills
but thats what flour millers use. Cheers, jim booth, lansing, mi

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Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 07:26:08 +0200
From: Lenny Garfinkel <lenny at inter.net.il>
Subject: suggestion to the janitor

You have a very nice numbered list of topics at the beginning of each issue
of the HBD.  Why not place the corresponding number next to each message so
that we can find specific messages more quickly?

Happy Brewing,

Lenny Garfinkel


Leonard Garfinkel, Ph.D.
Bio-Technology General
Kiryat Weizmann
Rehovot, Israel

lenny at inter.net.il

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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:52:40 -0600
From: "Tim M. Dugan" <tdugan at netins.net>
Subject: Storing Flaked Barley

Eighteen days ago I did my first all-grain batch and everything went =
pretty good (well my terminal gravity was a little high...expected 1.014 =
got 1.022.)  Anyway the recipe called for a half-pound of flaked barley, =
but my home-brew store only sells flaked barley in one pound bags.

Now, this weekend (exactly 21 days from my last brew day) I am brewing =
another recipe that calls for a half-pound of flaked barley and I want =
to know if I can use the barley left over from three weeks ago.

Dave Miller says it is not a good idea to store flakes as they readily =
pick up moisture.  On one hand, I've stored the flaked barley in doubled =
zip-locked bags and it being winter my house is quite dry.  On the other =
hand, a one pound bag only costs $1.79...not going to break me.

I know this question can not really be answered, but would you use them? =
 How can I tell if they contain too much moisture to be effective?


Thank for you help

Tim M. Dugan
tdugan at netins.net

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Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:28:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Alex Santic <alex at salley.com>
Subject: Yeast re-pitching  (Alex Santic)

Before the New Year, George DePiro made a rather well-directed post which
encouraged us to consider the pitching of adequate quantities of yeast as
a primary way of improving our brewing procedures. Of course there is wide
agreement with this sentiment. 

The discussion usually seems to focus on growing enough yeast to inoculate
a batch. Of course, breweries don't generally have this problem except for
the occasional re-culturing, and it would be best if we could put
ourselves in a position like theirs. Fact is, the best way to acquire an
ideal amount of yeast to pitch into five gallons of beer (unless someone
gives it to you) is to brew five gallons of beer. 

We can re-pitch our yeast like the breweries and some of us do, at least
sometimes. But as homebrewers, we often like to brew a variety of styles
with a variety of yeasts, and we haven't really solved the problem of
storing large quantities of pitchable yeast for extended periods for use
in future brews. In the spirit of George's post, I think this would be one
of the most useful solutions we could devise. 

In my readings so far, the only place I have seen this issue addressed is
in New Brewing Lager Beer, wherein Greg Noonan briefly describes a
procedure on page 98 which apparently allows a mass of pitchable yeast to
be stored in the freezer for several months in viable condition. I read
this with some interest, but it is unclear to me whether this technique
can feasibly be adapted to a homebrew environment, and exactly how it
could be accomplished. 

I wonder if anybody has more information about the technique described by 
Noonan, or some other technique to suggest.

- --
Alex Santic - alex at salley.com
Silicon Alley Connections, LLC
527 Third Avenue #419 - NYC 10016 - 212-213-2666 - Fax 212-447-9107
http://www.salley.com

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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:06:45 -0800
From: "Brander Roullett (Volt Computer)" <a-branro at MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Kettle Mashing, et al.

I was looking through the Library on the Brewery, and found an article
on Kettle Mashing and i have a few questions for those more experienced
in such matters.

The procedure described in the article is basically installing an
EZMasher on a brew kettle, and bring the grain/water mix up to Rest temp
and then sparging it out.  the author's methods only include 1 rest, and
i noticed in papazians book, he has a variety of rests.  Since i am a
NOVICE at all grain, but have been brewing with specialty grains since
my second batch well over a year ago I am still confused by discussions
on HBD regarding mashing etc.

If i made a Kettle masher and used the er.."rest schedule"? in papazian,
am i going to get a decent amount Gravity, and not waste sugars?

here is the schedule from Papazian 

Put grains in kettle, with 1.25 qts per pound of grain.
1) bring mixture 113-122 F and hold for 30 minutes.
2) raise to 150 F and hold for 10 minutes
3) raise to 158 F and hold for 10-15 minutes

Heres is the schedule from Kettle Mashing

Put grains in kettle, with 1.25 qts per pound of grain.
1) bring mixture 155 F and hold for 30 minutes.
2) bring to 178 F and hold for 10 minutes.

Which is better or recomended? Comments...


Brander Roullett(a-branro) aka  Badger    
http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/

For a quart of ale is a dish for a king.  -William Shakespeare

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Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:07:30 +1100 (EST)
From: Mark Preston <prestonm at labyrinth.net.au>
Subject: Wyeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity

G'day Folks,

I have recantly made an extract beer, (my own recipe), using Trappist High
Gravity yeast. The fermentation took about 14 - 15 days. The problem is that
it smells more like a wine than a beer. The ingrediants were as follows :-

2 kg DME
1 kg clucose
fuggles hops 40gms   ( 60 min boil )
fuggles hops 10 gms ( last 10 mins )

3787 , 2 litre starter pitch at about 25 C. Activity in air lock within half
an hour.

S.G. 1.050
F.G. 1.004

My question to the mob is can I over come the wine smell, by using a ALE
yeast, pitching this first then pitch the 3787 a day or so later??

All suggestion welcome by E-Mail..

Thanx in advance
   Cheers
 
Mark Preston
prestonm at labyrinth.net.au
Brewing Beer in Melbourne, Australia..

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Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 08:43:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Subject: Re: White Labs Yeast

>
>Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:43:43 -0500
>From: "P. Edwards" <pedwards at iquest.net>
>Subject: White Labs yeast (Paul Edwards)
>
>One of the local HB suppliers is touting a new product - White Labs Yeast.
>
>The info sheet says some things that got me scratching my head, so I
>thought I'd troll for information.
>
>First, the info sheet claims that the vial contains 300-500 billion (yes
>with a "b") cells.  Now, it looks to me that the vial has maybe an ounce or
>so of slurry covered with some liquid.  I did a little asking around, and
>came up with a density of yeast cells of about 1 million cells per
>microliter of slurry.  That would make the volume of 300 billion cells to
>be 300 ml or about _ten_ ounces.  My hb supplier says that White Labs uses
>a "slow speed" centrifuge at 1200 g's to compact the yeast w/o injuring it.
>1200 g's doesn't sound like "slow speed" to me, and I still don't think
>you can get 10 ounces of yeast slurry into a one ounce vial.  Or am I all
>wet here?
>
>Next, the info sheet claims you can pitch the contents of the vial into 5
>gallons of wort w/o making a starter.  While, you are undoubtedly getting
>more viable yeast than w/ a swelled pack of Wyeast, I can't believe that
>the amount of slurry in that vial is equivalent to the cup or so of thick
>slurry I'm used to pitching.  One person claims that pitching right out of
>the vial netted him an eight hour lag period.  Better than the 24-36 hours
>one might get from Wyeast, for sure, but when I pitch a cup of slurry I get
>about a 2-4 hour lag before visible signs of active fermentation.
>
>Using the widely accepted pitching rate of 5 x 10^6 cells/ml of wort for
>middling gravity ales, if the White Labs vial did indeed have 300 x 10^9
>cells, then there'd be enough yeast for about 15 gallons of wort (at 100
>percent viability), So, why an 8 hour lag time?
>
>
>Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:43:43 -0500
>From: "P. Edwards" <pedwards at iquest.net>
>Subject: White Labs yeast (Paul Edwards)

>First, the info sheet claims that the vial contains 300-500 billion (yes
>with a "b") cells.  Now, it looks to me that the vial has maybe an ounce or
>so of slurry covered with some liquid.  I did a little asking around, and
>came up with a density of yeast cells of about 1 million cells per
>microliter of slurry.  That would make the volume of 300 billion cells to
>be 300 ml or about _ten_ ounces.  My hb supplier says that White Labs uses
>a "slow speed" centrifuge at 1200 g's to compact the yeast w/o injuring it.
>1200 g's doesn't sound like "slow speed" to me, and I still don't think
>you can get 10 ounces of yeast slurry into a one ounce vial.  Or am I all
>wet here?

well, a centrifuge does pack cells in quite a bit.  and 300B to 500B "viable"
cells should get you a resonable pitch for 5 gallons. i have not done cell
counts
on centrifuged slurry, but 1 million/uL sounds low (more like in a unpacked
slurry)
for this example.

the only way you can tell how many are there is to count them (get those
tiny tweezer out;)
on a hemocytometer. this is what most commercial breweries do, others pitch
by weight and spot
check the density and viability.  this can be done at the same time with a
stain.  rememeber to stain
the sample not the slide.


>
>Next, the info sheet claims you can pitch the contents of the vial into 5
>gallons of wort w/o making a starter.  While, you are undoubtedly getting
>more viable yeast than w/ a swelled pack of Wyeast, I can't believe that
>the amount of slurry in that vial is equivalent to the cup or so of thick
>slurry I'm used to pitching.  One person claims that pitching right out of
>the vial netted him an eight hour lag period.  Better than the 24-36 hours
>one might get from Wyeast, for sure, but when I pitch a cup of slurry I get
>about a 2-4 hour lag before visible signs of active fermentation.

alot of issues come about here, wort strength, aeration and pitch viability.
8 hours for a homebrewer is not too bad.  if you want to get a rocket start
make up a "feeder wort" and pitch that.  say take the 30ml of slurry, dump that
into 500ml to 1 L of wort the day before.  it will proof the yeast (a little)
and you should have little or no lag (3 hrs maybe).  8 hrs is a hell of a
lot better 
24 to 36hrs.  i could sleep at night with 8 hrs.

where does the vendor store the yeast?? how old was it?  even cold storage
for more than
a few weeks is not good.  

>
>Using the widely accepted pitching rate of 5 x 10^6 cells/ml of wort for
>middling gravity ales, if the White Labs vial did indeed have 300 x 10^9
>cells, then there'd be enough yeast for about 15 gallons of wort (at 100
>percent viability), So, why an 8 hour lag time?

probably not 100%viable, commercially 90 to 95% is considered a minimum.
if 50% viable you barely had enough (10-15M/ml recommended or 1M/ml per Degree
Plato or so).  my guess there was less than 75% viable (well less than).
but aeration could be an issue also... did the beer ferment out without
troubles??

>
>Lastly, the info sheet says that for best results, the yeast should be used
>within fours weeks of packaging.  Yet, the package isn't dated. So I'm at
>the mercy of a HB retailer who may or may not have my best interests in
>getting a fresh product in mind when he sees dollars slipping away with
>every passing day the product sits in his fridge.

this is the economics of the biz - same thing with (or with out) born on dates,
packaged on in commercial beers.....4 weeks is the limit if properly stored...
by proper i would recommend as close to freezing as possible from day 1.
if your really skeptical - do it your self, save your money.  you only need one
cell to get going anyway.  grantedit is a lot of work and the possiblity of
screwing 
up is there if you are not porperly equipped and have some basic knowledge.
try it you like it.



good luck
joe
Joe Rolfe onbc at shore.net

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Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 07:09:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Heiner Lieth <lieth at telis.org>
Subject: Koelsch yeast behavior

The last brew I did was with Wyeast Koelsch 2565. It behaved nicely in the
primary (with temperatures in the mid 60's). I wanted to do the secondary at
colder temperatures (low to mid 50's) - which I can get these days in my
garage (I'm in California). I had also seen a recipe somewhere where this
strategy was used.

When the temperature got down to 55 F the yeast stopped (no more
airlock-action).  I was surprised by this since I thought that this yeast
was supposed to be an ale/lager hybird and I figured that that meant it
would be active to temperatures significantly lower than regular ale yeasts. 

Does anyone have any ideas as to the best fermentation temperature strategy
to use with this yeast?

Heiner Lieth.

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Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:16:58 EST
From: "FINLEY, BARRY CURTIS" <BFINLEY at MUSIC.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: thoughts on mead

Hello to all of my felow brewers,
It's been almost a year since the last time that I visited with the
HBD (Military life definately has its drawbacks!). In order to spare
everyone a long story, I'll get to the point. I haven't had the
opportunity to brew for almost a year and now that I can, I'm having
mixed feelings about what to brew. I was contemplating the idea of
brewing a very light bodied lager for consumption on hot summer days
here in Ga. On the other hand I really have been dying to try my hand
at mead. The only problem is that I have no recipies for mead. And to
tell you the truth, I really don't know what to expect from mead. So,
if anyone out there is willing to drop me a bit of information about
their experiencec with mead, please do so at any of the following
addresses: bfinley at music.cc.uga.edu  :  Fastball at prodigy.net
or I can be reached at bfinley at music.uga.edu
Thanks in advance,
Barry Finley

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Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:16:19 -0000
From: Graham Stone <gstone at dtuk.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Fermenting the commercial way

This message applies to English bitter/pale ale but may be applicable to 
other styles.  I've just had a most illuminating conversation with a chap 
at the local brewery.  I asked about the total length of time and the 
fermentation schedule that they followed (I've usually done 7 days primary, 
dropped to secondary for another 7 days, keg and condition for 21-28 days). 
 I was told that their fermentation was over in 2-3 days, the beer was then 
held in a holding tank for a day or so, casked and fined and send out to 
the pubs where it stand for a further few days.  All in all about 8 days 
from mash to glass!  Somewhat shocked, I asked about pitching rates and was 
told that my 1 litre of slurry per 50 litres of wort was about right.  One 
difference was they aerate with pure O2 while I use an aquarium pump for 12 
hour from when I pitch the yeast.  I known my oxygenation level is not 
going to be as high as if I'd used pure O2 (thanks to data from George Fix) 
but this still wouldn't account for my attenuation taking 5 times longer 
than the brewery.  It had to be the yeast itself.  I told him that I 
collect the yeast from the bottom of the secondary and use this in my next 
batch (via a starter, generally).  To my horror he said that most of the 
stuff I find on the bottom will be dead or ruptured cells since the reason 
they are not at the top is because they are not producing CO2.  His 
suggestion:  Pitch about 1 litre per 50 litres of wort.  As soon as the 
krausten starts and carries that dark brown stuff to the top, skim it off 
and discard it (this is mostly trub etc.).  After 2-3 days when a good 
thick creamy head appears, skim that off into a bottle and shake the CO2 
out of it.  This will contain LIVE cells.  At the same time, rouse the wort 
(he didn't say whether to re-aerate - might be a good idea though).  Allow 
fermentation to continue to the desired FG.  When it's finished, rake into 
cask and fine it.  When it's clear, it's ready!  Can any other commercial 
breweries confirm the above details?

Fresh beer every 8 days?  I could sell half my equipment or move to a 
smaller house!!

Dr. Graham Stone
Dunstan Thomas (UK) Ltd
- ------------------------------------------------------
web: http://www.demon.co.uk/dtuk/
email: gstone at dtuk.demon.co.uk
phone: +44-1705-822254
fax: +44-1705-823999
- ------------------------------------------------------

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #2314