HOMEBREW Digest #2359 Wed 26 February 1997

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Italian Beer Scene (KennyEddy)
  Fw: The Jethro Gump Report..Brewery Legalities ("Rob Moline")
  Little Apple and BT (kathy)
  Dropping vs Secondary Fermentation (Graham Stone)
  lists (khuri1018)
  Trip (UTC +01:00)" <d_peters at e-mail.com>
  Re: Flaming / Yow Yowing / Pissing and Moaning (John Sullivan)
  Dangers of flying (Bill Giffin)
  vigorous evaporation ("Robert DeNeefe")
  Counterflow chiller and trub removal / warming beer (George De Piro)
  Superior Brewing Co. Ontario Canada (Steven Ketcham)
  Re: building a RIMS heating chamber (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: Counterflow chiller, cold brewak (Oliver Weatherbee)
  Re: Late starting Wyeast ("Jeff Spencer")
  Idophor and stainless steel (Ian Smith)
  Craft Beer Institute Seminar ("Rob Moline")
  re: brian deck: yeast culture...(February 22, 1997) (Rae Christopher J)
  yeast culture conditions... (benbowj)
  Subject: AHA/AOB: the $100,000 Question (RANDY ERICKSON)
  Re: Composition of extract from steeped versus mashed grains (korz)
  co2 pressure  in primary ("Herb B Tuten")
  Recipe exchange (lheavner)
  Re: Skunkiness (korz)
  Stale Beer and Summer Brewing ("Rene Derieux")
  CO2 recycling/ESBs/AOB (Jim Busch)
  dirty beer lines (Jeff Sturman)
  Conspiracies (nkanous)
  Scottish Ales (keithzim)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 18:23:59 -0500 (EST) From: KennyEddy at aol.com Subject: Italian Beer Scene Just returned from a 10-day tour of Italy & Greece with a high school group (yikes!), during which I had only minimum opportunity to sample the beer scene. I did find that Heineken was invariably fresh and yummy -- the only time I had ever tasted what it presumedly is "supposed to" taste like, not skunky as we usually get it here in the US. Ditto for Grolsch and other EuroLagers. My limited experience with the Italian beer availability was this. Due to time and mobility limitations I was restricted to beers sold in "bars" (typically specializing in ice cream and coffee, with a cooler full of bottled beers off to the side) and an occasional liquor store. At first I was drooling at the variety of labels indicating fine European offerings, but after reading a couple labels, I found that practically every beer offerred was in the 8 to 12 percent alcohol range!! Now, mind you, I like a bock or barleywine every now and then, but I rather had in mind to sit and sip a nice obscure 4% ABV English ale and taste more beer than alcohol. Budweiser pulled up the rear (in more ways than one) with a wimpy 5% rating. Many of the beers' labels indicated that the alcohol level was the main attraction (lotsa "demon" and "devil" themes, and words like "strong" tossed in). What's up with this? Aside from the conclusion that Italians drink beer to get hammered (which I don't think is the case), why couldn't I find more than a scant few "normal" beers? Why so many PowerBrews? Is there some legal or tax issue here that favors stronger beers? Just curious. Kinda bolsters one of my German friends' answer to my question, "what's the best beer to try while we're in Italy" -- he said, "wine". By the way, you Italians (and our Greek hosts as well) have stewardship of some of mankind's most treasured artistic and cultural achievements -- take good care of them so we can come back and see them again!! Ken Schwartz El Paso, TX KennyEddy at aol.com http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 97 17:31:29 PST From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at kansas.net> Subject: Fw: The Jethro Gump Report..Brewery Legalities The Jethro Gump Report > >From: Bruce Baker <Bruce.E.Baker at tsy.treasury.govt.nz> > >Subject: Credentials and standards > >A lot of us can probably imagine ourselves as proprietors of > micro-breweries or > >brew-pubs. What kind of credentials are necessary (if any) to be a > brew-master > >of such an establishment, and what kind of legal standards are there (if > any) > >with regard to the beer served? I'm thinking of US Federal and state law. > > >Some states regulate maximum alcohol content in beers. Are there other > >regulations? The most comprehensive list of laws affecting US brewers is in the "Modern Brewery Age Blue Book." I have yet to see one, for they cost around $ 300 US. The "Brewers Resource Directory," from the Institute for Brewing Studie" is quite good, with most of the essential info, for about $ 80 US, I think. Federal details may be obtained from the BATF, Washington, DC, 20226. FWIW, the best place for US brewers to start is the Institute for Brewing Studies. They have been enormously helpful to me and the Little Apple. Currently, I am working on a legislative change concerning beer for festivals, and they have greatly aided me. Members of the IBS can also post on the IBS Forum, and get more direct info from brewers who are up and running. (We also get to vote for Board Members.) Jethro Gump Rob Moline Little Apple Brewing Company Manhattan, Kansas "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About Beer!" Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 23:53:46 -0500 From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us> Subject: Little Apple and BT I'm way behind on the HBD but the latest Brewing Techniques magazine had a very interesting profile on Little Apple Brewery and Brewmaster Rob Moline. Its a very good read, and the handsome dapper pictures of the "Jethro Gump" behind the bar are worth the price. Unfortunately Rob Jr wasn't pictured. Cheers, jim booth, lansing, mi PS How again did the clogged heat exchanger lead to infections? Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 09:49:08 -0000 From: Graham Stone <gstone at dtuk.demon.co.uk> Subject: Dropping vs Secondary Fermentation Second posting - Any takers? Bruce DeBolt writes re. Dropping question, again >Has anyone dropped half of their fermenting wort, left the rest behind >and then compared the two after bottling? Sorry, no I haven't. But I would like to open this dropping thread a little. My understanding is that the process of dropping involves transferring fermenting wort from the primary fermenter to a second vessel very shortly after it starts to krausen - a one or two days after start? The reason for doing this is to leave behind trub etc. that gets floated up with the krausen and trub that sediments to the bottom of the fermenter. Once in the second fermenter, the wort is very much cleaner and still contains very actively working yeast. Now, there is another practice which sometimes accompanies this process. Sometimes the wort is allowed to be aerated as it's transferred to the second fermenter. The purpose of this is to encourage yeast growth in the second fermenter presumably to ensure that the wort develops another protective layer of yeast on the surface. A similar end result to the practise of dropping is attempted by skimming the yeast head off the wort as soon as it appears. However, I have never managed to removed all the nasty looking stuff from the yeast head and this still doesn't get over the removal of the wort from the sedimented trub. It also doesn't address the option of aerating. My local brewery skims the head as soon as it appears and at the same time "rouses" the yeast presumably in an attempt to encourage yeast activity and or growth. I've deliberately not used the term secondary fermentation here. My understanding is that when one adopts the practise of allowing fermentation activity to continue until the yeast head starts to subside before transferring to another vessel, this is what is referred to as primary and secondary fermentation (the secondary taking place in the second container). The only other alternative (practised by AlK amongst others I believe) is to let the fermentation continue to a finish in the same single container. Is it not true therefore, that the only difference between dropping and using secondary fermentation is when you do the transferring? Or is it still permissible to use a third container for doing secondary fermentation with wort that has been dropped? Or is this Tertiary fermentation? Answers on a post card to.... Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 11:05:25 +0000 From: khuri1018 at worldnet.att.net Subject: lists lists Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 06:22:09 EST From: "DAVID T. PETERS GERMANY(UTC +01:00)" <d_peters at e-mail.com> Subject: Trip I am planning a trip to London and Brussels in the near future. I would appreciate it if someone could point me in the right direction for details on where to hook up with brewery tours in these areas or send me your personal recommendations. TIA. REGARDS, DAVID T. PETERS E-MAIL: d_peters at e-mail.com FORD OF GERMANY Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 06:31:54 -0800 From: John Sullivan <sullvan at anet-stl.com> Subject: Re: Flaming / Yow Yowing / Pissing and Moaning Ray Estrella writes (regarding trivial info and flaming): >There was the occasional flame-fest, and plenty of long running >technical threads about things that did not seem to have any >thing to do with homebrew. and then finishes his paragraph responding to Elvis with: >And let us have the privilege of making our own decisions >about what we read on the HBD. Hear! Hear! I am sick to death of those who always try to take the moral high ground on the HBD and other lists. Read or don't read. It is your choice alone. One good thing about flame wars is that you learn a little bit more about the posters themselves, the Als and the Daves. Its nice to know when you post whether you are responding to a pompous ass, a vindictive spiteful weenie, a gentleman or whatever. So keep those flamewars going! By the way, on a related subject, where does "wasted bandwitdth" go? Then Keith Royster jumps into the fray, admonishing Al and Dave: >Dave & Al, please consider this a friendly constructive >criticism, and definitely not flame. Most of us on the HBD >really do recognize you as having a lot of knowledge to share >about homebrewing. But please just keep it more succinct >and preferable offline until it's time to post a summary. >Even if the summary says we addree to disagree based on these >points. Keith: Please accept this as friendly constructive criticsim. Let people post what they want. You and others posting about "stopping the yow yowing" and "wasting bandwidth", do not speak for all of us using this service. You are not going to change anyone. Rather than bitching about what is posted and how it is posted, I would suggest that we all just let everyone post as they wish. Then we (I) have a choice of reading or responding as we wish. I will cede the moral high ground to all of you. It is yours for the taking. John Sullivan St. Louis, MO Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 09:18:47 -0600 From: Bill Giffin <billgiffin at maine.com> Subject: Dangers of flying Good morning all, >>>Al K said: Should my plane crash, might I suggest that Bill Giffin and Scott Dornseif should top the suspect list... <<< I assure you that it would have to be Scott because if Al's plane went down who would I have to use as a straight man? Who would answer all the stupid questions? Life would be too dull without Al K. Al isn't it nice to know that Mg can be bitter, Check Jim B's post. Isn't that what I said. So much for a little MgSO4 in a glass of water. What follow is Al K's sense of the absurdities of life. >My *guess* (purely *speculation*) for getting a feel for >an 18-th century Porter, might be to mix a strong brown >beer (because back then, they brewed 'em much stronger), >with a sour beer (that's the stale (or "aged" in modern >terms) part), and a woody beer (for the long aging in >wood). > >How about this: > >60% Old Peculier or McEwan's Scotch Ale >10% Cantillon or Boon Gueuze/Geuze >30% Rodenbach Grand Cru > >Yes, the Rodenbach is sour, but I suspect not sour enough and note >that the Cantillon or Boon would also add a horsey character which >would not be out-of-place in a Porter. > >Comments? Different proportions? Different beers? > Who in their right minds would waste the above beers to create a beer that rightfully went extinct. See what I mean who would want to lose Al when you can still get such wonderful insight into the art of wasting good beer trying to make an old porter. Blending Rodenbach Grand Cru with anything is a sin in the sight of God. Bill Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 08:58:50 -0600 From: "Robert DeNeefe" <rdeneefe at compassnet.com> Subject: vigorous evaporation This weekend I started my boil outside on a propane cooker with ~6.5 gallons of wort. 90 minutes later I ended up with significantly < 4 gallons. This is an evaporation rate of a little less than 1 gallon per half hour! This seems awfully high compared to what I've read in homebrew books and here on the digest. I realize that a vigorous boil is good for things like hop utilization and hot break formation, but is such a violent boil really necessary or is a rolling boil that moves things around good enough? This may seem like a silly question, but I have my reasons for not "wasting" water to evaporation if I don't have to. For one, my tap water is basically unfit for brewing (smells like chlorine half the time and is extremely hard) so I have to get water from other sources. Secondly, concentrating my wort so much makes the wort left in the brewpot (always a sad site to see wort who's potential will never be reached) all the more precious, along with rasing the likelihood of unwanted caramelization/darkening and the like. So, all you propane spewing homebrewers out there, do you boil like mad and get a high evaporation rate, or do you "tone down" the boil and still get nice utilization/hot break? Is there a point of "enough is enough" in the boil? I know I could experiment with a few brews and different boil vigorosities (take that, Mr. Webster!), but as I only brew once a month I'd rather poll the homebrew collective and see what bits of wisdom I can get first. And anway, its been a while since I asked a question. :) Robert Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 10:11:02 -0800 From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) Subject: Counterflow chiller and trub removal / warming beer Hi all, There have been a few people asking about cold break removal, especially when using counterflow chillers. I find that this is one of the disadvantages of CF chillers; complete trub removal by whirlpooling is more easily done when using an immersion chiller. I have had good results removing cold break by using a trub sack. I use small cotton bags (homemade). I boil a bag, stuff it inside the neck of the fermenter, and run the wort from the chiller through it. I have to run the wort slowly (~12 gallons/hour) to avoid overflow, but it will catch the cold break. I have tried using other materials, such as hop bags and cheesecloth, but they were way too coarse. Cotton T-shirts work well. I never use soap or detergents to clean trub sacks. ---------------------- Tim wrote in asking about microwaving beer to warm it to serving temperature. A far easier, and probably faster method, is to place the unopened bottle of beer into a small container of hot water. Count to 10. If you used really hot water, it will be at ~55F. It is very easy to over-warm the beer this way, but with a little experience you will be serving all your of bottled nectar at appropriate temperatures. Have fun! George De Piro (Nyack, NY) Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 07:19:42 -0800 (PST) From: Steven Ketcham <ketcham at earthlink.net> Subject: Superior Brewing Co. Ontario Canada Does anyone have an address or telephone number for Superior Brewing Co. Ontario Canada? I am trying to track down spec.s on their dry lager yeast. Thanks! Return to table of contents
Date: 24 Feb 1997 07:24:32 -0800 From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at axel.vigra.com> Subject: Re: building a RIMS heating chamber >> Keith Royster writes: KR> Point is, even making the chamber larger and if you always turn KR> the element off before the pump, you will still have a soft fuzzy KR> tan colored residue on your element after every batch. I haven't KR> obvserved this, but it has been confirmed through some of my KR> discussions with Dion Hollenbeck. If left alone, it will KR> eventually begin to slow your heat transfer efficiency and may KR> even become black carbonized crude like mine. Moral of the story KR> is that you should build your heating chamber so that the element KR> is easily accessible to be removed and cleaned periodically. I will go one further. You had better make it easy enough so that you can take it apart after EVERY brew and clean it. While still hot, a nylon kitchen brush and hot water will get this tan crud off very easily. Left to dry it will eventually turn to the black carbonized crud. And if it does not dry between brews, it can even rot on you. This is how I discovered that the elements need to be cleaned after every brew. God, what a stench!! Hope to save someone else the experience of finding this out the hard way. Rant mode on. ************** OK, now to one of my pet peeves. Sorry to Mike Szwaya, I am not picking on you personally, but I just gotta say this. I cannot understand why some people take really critical parts of a RIMS design and try to make them "on the cheap". A plastic heater chamber is an extreme example of this. Combining a heat source with plastic and water is a disaster waiting to happen. A simple error like running the chamber dry, or turning off the pump can result in a meltdown and very likely dump liquid and now you have a liquid and electricity danger. And you have a high likelihood of electrocuting yourself. Did you possibly scrimp and not buy a GFCI to protect yourself? This is pennywise and poundfoolish thinking. Rant mode off. ************** dion - -- Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164 Email: hollen at vigra.com http://www.vigra.com/~hollen Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs San Diego, California Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 10:47:32 -0500 From: oliver at triton.cms.udel.edu (Oliver Weatherbee) Subject: Re: Counterflow chiller, cold brewak Rob Kienle wrote in part: > The most important thing about cold break is >"creating" it (which the counterflow chiller will do far more >effectively than the immersion), so that at some point it can be >separated from the rest of the beer. The importance of "when" to >separate it varies (see below). I think the option of recirculating >cooled wort back into your brewpot is probably a little too hazardous >from a bacteriologic (sp?) point of view and will also take so long that >the benefits of using a CF will be lost. First all discussion on this thread is supposition, yours and mine, because I don't know anyone who has tried this. I hope to borrow a cf chiller and test it out, however until then you and I will be debating opinions. Mine being that recirculating the wort back into the kettle will give a cooling rate much faster than an immersion chiller (without the need for physical agitation and its associated danger of HSA) but not as fast as the straight cf chiller. In terms of cold break formation, according to my current limited understanding, you will get the same amount of break material recirculating back into the kettle or straight into the fermenter. As far as I know (and I am certainly willing to be re-educated), since I am not talking about reboiling the wort, we can treat the cold break as "BOOPs" (Break Only Once Proteins). The coagulated proteins which fall out of solution in the cf chiller will not significantly redissolve once returned to the warmer wort. Just as Hot Break doesn't redissolve after chilling. (chemists please excuse my mixed and probably improper use of "dissolve" for proteins in solution). I don't really understand your statement concerning the "bacteriologic hazard" unless perhaps your assuming that a slower cooling of the wort provides a greater chance for thermophilic bacteria to take up shop. In which case I would say that the chance is less than it would be with an immersion chiller. I really don't think that the rate of chilling would be that much less, maybe on the order of 5 minutes for a 5 gallon batch. And an added 5 minute chilling on brew day seems a much better AND safer option than syphoning wort to a temporary fermenter and then syphoning again to get it off the settled break material. With leaf hops providing a filter bed, this would allow for the prevention of carry-over of MOST break material. Obviously some would be transferred to the fermenter and thats fine, I want some for yeast metabolism and nucleation points for CO2 release. I don't want too much because of the POTENTIAL (all caps because I recognize that this is an unsettled issue) of its adverse impact on clarity(?), stability(?), off-tastes(?) etc. Also by decreasing the amount of trub in the primary, I am decreasing the amount of beer I lose when syphoning. _______________________________________________________________ Oliver Weatherbee oliver at triton.cms.udel.edu First State Brewers http://triton.cms.udel.edu/~oliver/firststate/ _______________________________________________________________ Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 10:04:46 -0600 From: "Jeff Spencer" <spence at eai.com> Subject: Re: Late starting Wyeast >Two weeks ago I prepared a package of Wyeast yeast by flattening the package an >d mixing the contents. This was two days before I intended to brew up a batch >of ale. Nothing happened ( at least visibly) inside the yeast package for three > days; I finally pitched dry yeast in my wort. Five days after crushing the pac >kage things started to happen. The fully expanded foil pack has been residing i >n my fridge for the last week and a half. Question:IfI plan to brew this weeke >nd, can this yeast still be used? As long as you make a starter, it will probably be ok. You might want to give it an extra day to get going though. Check the date stamped on the foil package. WYeast that is only a month or so old can puff up in a day or two. If it is several months (3-4) old it can take a while. I believe WYeast has a shelf life of at least 4 months if refrigerated. -spence - -- ***** Jeff Spencer <spence at eai.com> ***** CorpComm Project Manager ***** Engineering Animation --> http://www.eai.com ***** - .-. ..- ... - -. --- --- -. . Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 11:12:26 -0500 (EST) From: HOMEBRE973 at aol.com Subject: BIERRE DE GARDE I am trying to find a recipe that is close to "Tres Monts" by the St. Sylvestre brewery in the Flanders area of France. I posted this many months ago, but never found anyone who made a beer that came out like Tres Monts. I do have Wheeler and Protz recipe from "Brew Classic European Beers at Home" but I do not know if they ever made the beer. So my questions are: What yeast would one use? Can you culture yeast from a bottle of "Tres Monts" and if so is it the yeast used for fermentation? Does anyone have an all grain proven recipe for this style without the banana esters so common in many beers using Belgian yeasts? TIA, Andy Kligerman Hillsborough, NC Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 09:09:14 -0700 (MST) From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com> Subject: Idophor and stainless steel Does idophor attack stainless steel after long exposure ? Can I store idophor in a 5 gallon corny keg for months or should I just sanitize, drain and air dry ? Cheers Ian Smith isrs at rela.uucp.netcom.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 97 10:12:24 PST From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at kansas.net> Subject: Craft Beer Institute Seminar The Jethro Gump Report CBI Recipe Formulation Seminar. Attended the Craft Beer Institute Seminar on Recipe Formulation in Kansas City yesterday, led by Ray Daniels. Highly recommended as is Ray's book, Designing Great Beers. If you get a chance to attend, make the time...cost 49 $US. The book cost 20 $US at the seminar, don't know what it goes for elsewhere. I think he will also be doing one at the Craft Brewers Convention in Seattle. ( Also got to meet Jackie Rager...nice to put a face to the theorists, huh!) Was quite pleased to see that even a beer distributor was in attendance! Jethro (Learning New Ways to Think About Beer) Gump Rob Moline Little Apple Brewing Company Manhattan, Kansas "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About Beer!" Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 11:52:01 -0500 (EST) From: Rae Christopher J <3cjr7 at qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: re: brian deck: yeast culture...(February 22, 1997) i'm not sure, but from my memory of microbiology courses, what may be happening is that by starting your yeast in a non-simple sugar medium you may be activating late-phase enzymes early, and de-activating early-phase enzymes. bear in mind that there is _no_ way to 100% sterilize anything (spores, for instance, resist chlorine and temperatures up to ~120 C (~240F)). what this means is that instead of quickly getting a high alcohol content (inhibiting nasty bacteria/fungi) and then slowly breaking down other molecules (the mellowing process), you are instead taking 24h to re-start the alcoholization, during which time spores can "hatch" and start to skunk your beer. meanwhile the yeast will begin to produce alcohol, quickly inhibiting further growth of the nasties. net result is an off flavour, as opposed to a full skunk. the only problem with this explanation is it does not account for why your earlier batches were OK. this is just a thought, not a stone-set truth. if no-one else has a better explanation, try just using a simple sugar starter medium with your next batch and seeing what happens. ___________________________________________________________ This is Chris' signature: C____ R__ &% His home page is at http://qlink.queensu.ca/~3cjr7/ Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 10:42:56 +0000 From: benbowj at ava.bcc.orst.edu Subject: yeast culture conditions... In HBD #2355 Brian Deck wrote about problems with possible contamination or yeast mutation: > My problem is, apparently, contamination. There is a terrible >"winey" taste in my last two batches, and they are <WAY> >over-carbonated, One of his hypotheses as to what may be wrong: >... or #2: my yeast, specifically brewers yeasts that we all >know and love, were never meant to be treated like laboratory >yeasts, and they are somehow losing their "good" properties? >NOTE: I culture them bothin liquid culture (including my starter) >and on solid agar plates here in the lab using a yeast propigation >medium called YPD. It consists of 1%yeast extract and >2% bacto-peptone (both common laboratory media ingredients), >and 2% glucose. That is all; it's very bare-bones stuff. >Could the lovely brewers' yeasts be getting "sick" in this media, >somehow becoming no longer capable of making my wort taste like >beer? I work in a lab also and have started culturing my own brewing yeast. I havn't had any problems yet, but I havn't been doing it for too long either. I do have one suggestion though. If the problem is, as you suggest it might be, a change in the yeasts ability to ferment "correctly", it may be due to the medium it is being propagated in. If it's being grown generation after generation on peptone and glucose, it might lose it's preference or it's ability to ferment maltose. I suggest adding some malt extract to your propagation medium. In my work I use YMDA (yeast malt dextrose agar) to propagate yeast (for work(not yeast you would want to brew with), as well as for my own brewing). The recipe is 3 g yeast extract, 3 g malt extract, 5 g peptone, 5 g dextrose (corn sugar), and 18 g agar per liter. You can make a broth with the same recipe, minus the agar. However, I think that selection should only be a problem if you are indeed growing generation after generation on non-malt medium. If you're only propagating them once or twice before using them, and are recovering them from the fermenter to replenish your supply, it shouldn't be a problem (IMHO). I think that they would need several generations of exposure to other nutrients for selection to occur. Anyways, writing this now made me think that maybe I'll start using only malt extract as a nutrient source for my brewing yeasts, to prevent any type of selection toward other nutrient preferences. Hope this is helpful Jesse Benbow Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 11:02:18 -0800 From: RANDY ERICKSON <RANDYE at mid.org> Subject: Subject: AHA/AOB: the $100,000 Question I don't think I understand this AHA thing. I work for a public agency (water/electric utility). We are governed by a Board of Directors (elected by customers/registered voters) and run by a general manager appointed by, and accountable to, the board. I own some stock in a private corporation. That company is also governed by a board (elected by shareholders) and run by an accountable CEO. The professional association I belong to and hell, even my hombrew club, are run by _elected_ officers. The AHA on the other hand is run by a self-appointed president who supposedly answers to a Board of Directors. I do know that as a member, I never had any say in the make-up of this board. Since the AHA doesn't see fit to disclose just how this board is made up, we'll have to assume that they are invited to serve by Charlie or his staff. And that takes just about all of the wind out of the AHA's assertion that the president serves only at the pleasure of the board. I can't seem to think of any type of body that operates under this model. It seems that for all of the efforts of the AHA to convince us that they are legit, all they ultimately understand is the almighty buck. And that, after all, is the only vote that we have. Don't pay the "dues", don't buy the merchandize, don't buy the books or the magazine, until we're convinced that our "membership" has some meaning. Maybe then the AHA can be the type of organization its officers think it is. Randy in Modesto Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 13:27:18 -0600 (CST) From: korz at xnet.com Subject: Re: Composition of extract from steeped versus mashed grains Brian writes: >Looking for information or scientific info on the relative >compositions of the extract gained from specialty grains and >malts (crystals, brown, chocolate, black barley, black patent, >roasted barley etc. etc.). I want to compare the composition of >the extract gained by mashing the specialty grains and malts with >the base malt(s) to the extract gained by steeping them in >untreated water at 150-160 F. I believe that in terms of "extract," i.e. SG points, it will be pretty similar except for the very pale (colour < ~5L) crystal malts. Regarding the fermentabilty, I believe that if you are mashing at the cooler end of the range (i.e. 150-ish F), I believe that you get a *slightly* more fermentable wort if you mash rather than steeping because of the activity of beta amylase on the dextrins in the crystal malts. I say "slightly" above because in my experience, I have reason that not all of the unfermentables in crystal malts are able to be broken down by beta amylase. This is pretty much speculation, on my part, however, since I have not done side-by-side comparisons. >If you want to get very particular, then the question to answer is, >can I get away with mashing only the base malts and then steeping >the specialty grains and malts? Yes, except for the vary pale crystal malts and "specialty grains" that contain starch (i.e. if you consider flaked barley a "specialty grain") you can certainly do what you propose and many homebrewers have done this (no comercial brewers that I know of, however). > The technique would be to calculate, >using your known extract efficiency, the expected contribution to >the SG in a mash. Then, knowing your extract efficiency for >steeped grains, increase the amount of specialty grains and malts >to derive the same contribution to SG in the wort. Or is it your >opinion that even though the SG contribution was the same for each >of the specialty grains and malts, that due to a different composition >of the extracts (balance of the various components), the wort >would not turn out to be the same after all? As I said before, the fermentabilty would be slightly different if you were mashing at the cool end of the amylase range, but it would not make *radically* different beer, if that's what you are asking. Back in 1988 or 1989, I asked Dr. George Fix about this exact point (more specifically, I asked if mashing crystal would break down a lot of the dextrins we typically seek from crystal malts)... his response was that he uses the crystal malts for their flavour contribution and that he controls fermentability (i.e dextrin content) of the resulting wort by choosing appropriate mash temperatures, so he adds all the malts together at the beginning of the mash. In my own brewing, I too have always done this. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 14:45:04 -0500 From: "Herb B Tuten" <herb at zeus.co.forsyth.nc.us> Subject: co2 pressure in primary Greetings all, I often use a blow-off setup in beginning fermentation and noticed something interesting last week. After the lag phase I could regulate how much bubbling, if any, occurred by raising or lowering the tube end inside the blow-off container. I assume this is due to the amount of water pressure in contrast to the co2 pressure coming from the fermenter. Of course, when fermentation really got going, it didn't appear to make alot of difference. (I never got around to switching to an airlock.) Then, a few days later I could control the bubbling again. It seems that the gas in the tubing pushes to point X in relation to the depth of the blowoff water. The question that I could not answer was this: Is it better to raise the end of the tubing to allow gases to escape and minimize pressure in the fermenter, or is it better to lower the tubing end and prevent bubbling to keep the gases in the fermenter, or does it matter at all ??? Yes, I know that switching to an airlock would prevent the question from coming up at all. I thought this might be an interesting topic for discussion: maximum pressure inside fermenter vs. minimum pressure inside fermenter. Visit the Winston-Salem Wort Hawgs at http://freenet.co.forsyth.nc.us/WSWH Cheers, Herb herb at zeus.co.forsyth.nc.us Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 14:15:19 -0600 From: lheavner at tcmail.frco.com Subject: Recipe exchange I just tried an IPA a made using a cat's meow recipe named "sister star of the sun". It turned out very well in spite of low temperatures during mash and fermentation. That is another story. Anyway, I would highly recommend trying this. If you don't have a browser, I can email you a copy. I substituted 1 pound of mild malt for one pound of pale, but otherwise followed exactly. Now I have a need for a good Milk stout or sweet oatmeal stout recipe. private email would be fine. I want to make it for a friend who likes stout, is expecting twins in 6 weeks, and has been abstaining during pregnancy. I am not a big fan of dry stouts, so the sweeter the better. All-grain preferred! Comments and anecdotes always appreciated. TIA Lou <lheavner at frmail.frco.com> Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 14:29:31 -0600 (CST) From: korz at xnet.com Subject: Re: Skunkiness Dave writes: >Also our >friend in Grapevine Tx agrees with Jay in that both brew on the patio in bright >light and never get skunking. I've found a reference that may explain why skunking may be less of a point during brewing: "Since malt, adjuncts, and hops all contain volatile mercaptans, it is not suprising to find that brewers' wort also has measureable amounts of these compounds. The few samples of wort analyzed had mercaptan levels that were rational on the basis of the brewing materials used. The mercaptan level decreased during fermentation, and increased during primary and secondary storage." -- "Determination of Volatile Sulfur Compounds IV Further Notes on Mercaptans" by M.W.Brenner, J.L.Owades, and T. Fazio, A.S.B.C. Proceedings, 1955. Note that this is *not* an article on lightstruck beer, although it is mentioned (and there is a reference to the 1954 Proceedings and says that "'lightstruck' beer, whose odor was recently shown to be due to mercaptans."), but rather an article on mercaptan formation and reduction in "non-irradiated" beer (the authors' expression). My point is, however, that perhaps yeast activity during fermentation will reduce light-induced mercaptans (during the boil, runoff, etc) as well, no? >I can explain all these results to my satisfaction if what is happening is a >surface photolysis on the surface of the beer in the glass or mug. There is no >glass in the way to absorb UV or other light. There is a high concentration of >photosylates directly under the drinker's nose ( even though the actual amount >may be small) and it can even work with dark beers like a porter, since >penetration into the body of the beer is not necessary. Removal of the beer >from direct sunlight will allow the minunte amount of prenyl mercaptan to be >purged or just drift away on the wind. This doesn't explain my experience with Newcastle Brown Ale or the other HBD poster's (oops, sorry) experience with Ballentine's. >Now the test. Take a highly hopped beer in two mugs 1 covered, the other >exposed to the light. Any difference in the aroma? Switch which mug is covered Much easier: two bottles of PU (or Heineken... heck... BUD!), taken from a sealed (and therefore dark) case. One stored dark, the other put on on sunny window ledge for a day (better do two for the Bud -- brown bottles). Next, open, pour, sniff... simple. It probably doesn't take a day... I read in Brewing Science this weekend that it only takes a few hours in sunlight and a few days under fluorescent light, but I want to make *darned* sure you smell the difference. Really, Dave, no offense meant, but... put away the photochemistry texts and try this experiment. I'm sure we'll agree then. Perhaps try four bottles (two dark, two sunny, two smelled after a day, two after a month at 50F in the dark) and kill two birds with one sixpack. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 97 15:22:04 CST From: "Rene Derieux" <rderieux at dttus.com> Subject: Stale Beer and Summer Brewing Hi all! I would like to know what is a good way for a homebrewer to make Stale/Sour beer to mix with a Mild for a "real" london porter? This is my first year as a homebrewer and I have never brewed in the summer. The temp. can get into the 90s here in Michigan and I really don't want to spend tons of money cooling my home to 70F or buying a separate refrigarator. Any suggestions on how to keep the carboys cool while fermenting? Thanks, Rene' Derieux Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:07:36 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov> Subject: CO2 recycling/ESBs/AOB Fredrik writes about CO2 reuse/recycling: <I just recalled seeing this in a small brewery in Bamberg last summer. The <CO2 was piped from the conditioning tanks and allowed to bubble through a <small glass container (<1 liter), and I was of course curious about it. The <guide said that it was for capturing CO2 for force carbonation. Actually what you saw was an airlock for a professional brewery. We use a very similar device at Victory and many other brewers do so as well. <what kind of liquid there was in the container. Acid of some sort? Nope, just water. Recycling of CO2 does not become cost effective until the production reaches about 60K BBLs/yr. That is where the cost reduction of the price of CO2 starts to recoup the investment in equipment. Small Bamberg braueries are too small to do this economically. The device you saw is used to spund the tank when the redidual sugars are low enough to generate carbonation in the tank. Standard lager/unitank technique. This technique, BTW, does meet Reinheitsgebot, which merely mandates that the CO2 be produced from the brewery itself. Spunding meets this as does using previously saved/recycled CO2 while bottled gas does not meet this standard. Charles is on the noble Fullers ESB quest: < for 10 US Gals: < 14.00 lb. British two-row pale ale < 1.50 lb. British Crystal (50-60L) < 1.50 lb. Cara-Pils Dextrine < 1.25 lb. Belgian Munich < 1.00 lb. Flaked corn (maize) < 1.50 oz. Challenger 7.3% 60 min < .50 oz. Challenger 7.3% 40 min < .50 oz. Willamette 4.9% 40 min < 1.00 oz. Willamette 4.9% 20 min < 1.00 oz. EK Goldings 5.1% 20 min < 1.00 oz. EK Goldings in hopback < Single infusion mash at 154F < Predicted OG 1054 < Predicted IBU 35 < Pitch with Wyeast 1968 - no other. Sounds good to me but Id lose the Cara-Pils Dextrine malt. If you want a light caramel malt, use DC caraVienne but its not needed. The British ale malt will provide color enough to go with the UK Crystal. Dont forget to dry hop at 1/4 oz per 5 gals. Also to get the true taste you are looking for will require cask conditioning and dispense from beer engine or gravity, this is a real key to the overall effect. (supre fresh EKGs are key here too) RE: AOB/AHA. Damn! Twice I wrote to Charlie, once many, many years ago to ask some of the same questions being covered here so aptly by Louis et al. Now I find out that not only do they ignore comments/constructive criticism, they dont even read em!!! Sheesh, talk about non responsive folks. Im still trying to figure out why the AHA refused to ship the promised bottles for the AHA conference beer I brewed em until the night before my one month beer trek across Europe! I cant tell you how close they came to getting the entire 2 BBLs in kegs... ;-) Jim Busch Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 14:47:52 -0700 From: brewshop at coffey.com (Jeff Sturman) Subject: dirty beer lines A good friend of mine started a beer distributorship about a year ago and he now distributes several very tasty micros. He recently purchased a line cleaning kit so that he can better serve his customers (taverns, liquor stores). He called me a few weeks ago because he had a problem he couldn't solve. One of his accounts was complaining about his beer foaming. I went with him to this account to see if I could help and immediately realized something sorta fishy. This account has 8 taps: 2 AB, 1 Coors, 1 Miller, 4 micros. The keg cooler is set-up with the major domestic beer kegs on one side and the micros on the other side. The majors had new, shiny hoses, fittings and taps. The micros all had old, nasty, filthy hoses, fittings and taps. Now, this lounge owns this equipment, but mysteriously all the old crappy equipment is hooked up the micro kegs. Call Oliver Stone.... We replaced the filthy hoses with new ones, after which all the micros served just fine. The manager of this place is clueless about system maintenance and cleaning but did point out that the 'beer distributor reps help her keep the system maintained'. These 'reps' are employees of AB, Coors and Miller. Thankfully my friend is now also involved in maintaining the system. jeff casper, wy Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 17:42:36 -0500 (EST) From: nkanous at tir.com (nkanous) Subject: Conspiracies Name that tune..."For What It's Worth", Buffalo Springfield. Great tune! Nathan Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 17:27:02 -0800 From: keithzim at tgn.net Subject: Scottish Ales Looking for some good recipies for a Scottish Ale. Am in interested in both extract and all grain. can send to keithzim at tgn.net Return to table of contents