HOMEBREW Digest #2380 Fri 21 March 1997

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
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		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Decoction - concensus on Temp, not on Percent (Charles Burns)
  Acidification with Muriatic Acid? (Charles Burns)
  Hop Feilds and RIMS (Jason Henning)
  False bottom for 10ga Gott ("C&S Peterson")
  Re: Old Yeast Starter (Summary) (tsg)
  Krausening ? (Luc Dore)
  Fwd: Read this, it is cool. (Lon15)
  RE: Using corn starch / keep starch out of your beer! (George De Piro)
  Culture media (jared froedtert)
  Female Hormones in Beer! ("Rob Moline")
  No Spamming from the AHA/AOB ("Brian M. Rezac")
  New Yeast Supplier/ Baobab Tree Pub ("Rob Moline")
  They Just Don't Get It (Jeff Sturman)
  Brew architecture questions ("Ray Robert")
  Microscopes (A. J. deLange)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Mar 97 21:43 PST From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns) Subject: Decoction - concensus on Temp, not on Percent Ok, after much review, discussion and headslapping, the following temps are pretty much everyone's agreement for a single decoction: First rest via infusion at 140F for 15-20 minutes. DO NOT under any circumstances let this go to 145F and then reduce. Hit the 140F right on, or even undershoot by up to 5 degrees (ie 135F to 140F). This rest is to release some proteins / enzymes into the liquid, and of course the free starch too. At least 5 different commentors have stated 135F to 140F is a good temp. Checking the New Brewing Lager Beers (Greg Noonan 1996, page 138), he recommends a temperature between 122 and 131. Keep in mind that the 135-140F recommendation is based on the grain bill for the vienna that I'm working on, 20% lager, 50% Vienna, 30% Munich malts. Noonan assumes undermodifed malts. He later asserts that for more modern malts (why does he write about old stuff in the first place) a temp of 126-149F for the first rest but recommends 131F (kinda low according to all of us). Well, I'm using modern malts so I'll stick with the 140F for the next attempt. Now we have the widely varying opinions on how much of the rest mash to pull for the decoction. I've had recommendations that say pull from 1/3 to 1/2 for the decoction on one end to pull 90% (virtually all) the grain for the decoction. Now, I've been doing the 80-90% trick and not having very good luck. Lets have a public discussion here on the relevant advantages of one over the other. Just before posting this I see that Noonan says that the amount of mash to pull is dependent on the thickness of the rest mash. The thicker it is, the less of it you have to pull out and heatup to gain the next rest temp. This makes sense from a purely physics sense, since the more matter you need to raise the temp for, the more matter at higher temps is required to achieve that when mixed. Is this really the only factor that we need to consider? Or are we concerned about boiling more of the mash to achieve more melanoidin formation, or higher extraction? Still confused on this one. Right now I'm leaning towards a slightly thinner mash than I have been using and pulling about half the mash for the decoction. What say the guru's out there? Charley (perplexed in N. California) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 97 21:43 PST From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns) Subject: Acidification with Muriatic Acid? Ok, I'm convinced that gypsum in sparge water is a waste of money. I have some muriatic acid that's used for lowering ph in swimming pools and hot tubs. Its pretty powerful stuff, but its really cheap. Like $4 for 2 gallons of the stuff. Can I use this to acidify my sparge water? Assuming 5 gallons that is normally at about 7.0 or 7.1 (my well) and acid that says 31.4 percent Hydrogen Chloride, how much of that acid should I add to the water to achieve 5.0 ph? Or am I comitting suicide trying to use the stuff (I gag on it when I get a strong whiff). Charley (choking in N. California) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 03:06:13 -0800 From: Jason Henning <huskers at cco.net> Subject: Hop Feilds and RIMS Hello- I went from Seattle to Yakima the other day, my first time over Snowqualmie pass. I thought that once over the pass and in to the valley I'd see field after field of hop poles. I saw only one. Where are all the hop feilds at??? Do they take the poles down for winter? This doesn't make sense to me. - --- I'm building a RIMS. I've had $30 worth the square tubing welded in to a three tier stand. Should have done this batches ago. It's amazing what the right equipment will do for you. I'm getting my temperature control together (thanks to Ken Schwartz) and have a pump on order. Heater chamber parts are at the plumbers waiting to be solder together. The equipment seems to falling into place. The only thing is I'm not sure how to operate it! Do you RIMSers let the pump run the whole time? Or just to do temperature raises and now and then to maintain a rest temperature? Ant other tips are welcome as well. I can hardly wait to crank this baby up. - --- I want to mention that I've had great success with Thames Valley ale yeast. I repitch the dreges after a little washing. Even with this large amount of yeast, it still is a slow fermentor but always finishs well, 1.002 on my last batch. It's pretty fruity tasting, but not quite as much as Whitbread. I really like this yeast. - --- Dave Burley comments about Charlie P. >> A major flaw is his recommendation to strain hot wort into the fermenter >> full of cold unboiled water - all in one picture! And with brew in hand, every picture he's holding a brew. I'd like to see him manhandle my 10 gallon kettle with a beer in hand, now that make a nice picture. Lyndon, who introduced me to extract brewing, suggests that if you do use this method to put your carboy in a gunny sack and then in a wash basin. This way when the carboy breaks, clean up is a breeze! He learned this the hard way. Boiling wort can thermal shock glass to the point of failure. Be careful. - --- We've seen several post asking about determining AA% of homegrown hops. Why not use store bought for the bittering and use homegrown for late kettle and dry hopping. An estimation of the AA% with 0-5% utilization seems like the error would be small, maybe 1 or 2 IBUs. Lager on, Jason Henning Big Red Alchemy and Brewing, Olympia Washington There is nothing wrong with sobriety in moderation -- John Ciardi Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 07:50:42 UT From: "C&S Peterson" <CNS_PETERSON at msn.com> Subject: False bottom for 10ga Gott HBDers- I was reading a post recently and saw a reference to using a pizza pan as a false bottom to a 10ga Gott. I musta missed this thread. Is there instructions for constucting such a false bottom anywere? Is this a SS pan, or aluminum? What size holes and how many? Private email is fine, Chas Peterson Laytonsville, Md. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:27:46 -0500 From: tsg at eng1.netlink.com Subject: Re: Old Yeast Starter (Summary) I received a number of helpful responses to my request regarding a yeast starter (Wyeast 1056) that I had started and hadn't used for about a month. I had been feeding it once a week. All responses indicated that it should be fine. Most said I should have just stuck it in the fridge when I knew I wasn't going to be using it and some pointed out that feeding it so much increased the risk of infection. Thanks to all who responded! Todd Goodman Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:01:20 -0500 From: Luc Dore <ldore at positronfiber.com> Subject: Krausening ? Hello to my fellow HB'ers, I'd like to get into Krausening a batch instead of the proverbial corn sugar. Now I know that the quantity of beer to remove from the batch before pitching the yeast is dependent on the gravity and on batch size; except that I don't know the formula to apply. If any one would be so kind to post the formula and any experiences of this procedure versus corn syrup... Thanks in advance ! - -- Luc Dore ldore at positronfiber.com Return to table of contents
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I refused to send it to many people when I first made it in June of 1995, because I didn't believe it would work. I sent it to 38 people, then I got the best boyfriend that I could ever have. ***Remember*** You only have 5 days to send this to as many people as possible. Don't forget to pass it on. Have fun in the near future with your new boyfriend or girlfriend!!! I know this works from experience. Don't give up the opportunity of a lifetime. >> Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:59:00 -0800 From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) Subject: RE: Using corn starch / keep starch out of your beer! Hi all, Adjunct Boy writes that you should boil corn starch, but that he has used it without boiling it. He claims that the only problem this caused was chill haze. Excess starch in your beer will not cause chill haze. It will cause starch haze, and this is not nearly as benign a thing! Brewer's yeast cannot metabolize starch. Some wild yeasts and bacteria can. No matter how careful you are about sanitation, there will be some unwanted microbes in your wort. The idea is to make your wort/beer as unhealthy for them as possible, so that only the brewer's yeast can function well. If you have starch in your beer, it will eventually become infected because there will be a competition-free food source for the unwanted bugs. The beer may taste OK going into the bottles, but eventually it will go bad. You'll notice that the bottles will gain carbonation with time, and may take on unpleasant aromas and flavors. It may become thinner and less malty, too. Finally, if you wait long enough, the bottles will explode from the excess pressure. I speak from experience. Keep unconverted starch out of your beer. This means that you shouldn't steep grains that contain starch (like Munich and Pils malts), nor should you use ungelatinized adjuncts without first cooking them, nor should you toss a can of pumpkin into the kettle (I was young and ignorant)! Have fun! George De Piro (Nyack, NY) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:08:14 -0500 From: jared froedtert <froedter at pilot.msu.edu> Subject: Culture media Hello to all, I work in a laboratory, and i found something i thought was intresting and thought i'd share it with y'all. So here it is. I was looking through the Flulka, BioChemika Microbiology media guide , they put out a cataloge full with culture media for tons of applications. I happen, to my suprise, stumble across a product called "Wort Agar". It's contents are the following: Malt Extract 15.0g/L, Peptone (from casein) 1.0g/L, D-Maltose 12.5g/L, Dextrin 2.5g/L, Dipotassium hydrogen phospate (K2HPO4) 1.0g/L, Ammonium chloride (NH4Cl)1.0g/L and Agar 17.0g/L. You can buy this for the low, low, low price of $15.55 for 100g! Wow what a bargin, considering we can make a litre for about $5. Also, this is the cool part, is their description of the product they mention "Addition of special indicator dyes allows differentiation between yeast and bacteria colonies." Does anybody out there know what indicators they would be talking about? My guess would be that the indicator/dye will stain out the cell wall/membrane of prokaryotes (bacteria) differently than eukaryotes(yeast and higher animals). It's weird, because this company has a entire section of their cataloge for Indicators/Dyes, but fail to tell you what the products uses are. So if any of you brewing scientists out there have any idea what the dye/indicator might be give a hollar; this could possibly be a useful test for beginning homebrewers, or anybody really, to test their level of sanitation. Or to see if off flavors originated from a contaiminant infecting the wort. brewing near the thrid coast, jared Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 12:15:22 PST From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at kansas.net> Subject: Female Hormones in Beer! The Jethro Gump Report This was forwarded to me by a nationally known beer magazine publisher who shall remain unidentified to protect his subscription base!) (Politically Incorrect Mode on.) Female Hormones in Beer! > Yesterday, scientists in the USA revealed that beer contains small traces >of female hormones. > > To prove their theory they fed 100 men 12 pints of beer and observed that > 100% of them started talking nonsense and couldn't drive !. Jethro (Flame Shield Up) Gump Rob Moline Little Apple Brewing Company Manhattan, Kansas "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About Beer!" Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:08:31 -0700 From: "Brian M. Rezac" <brian at aob.org> Subject: No Spamming from the AHA/AOB Karl Lutzen Wrote: > You can rest assured that if you receive "junk" email, it did not > originate from the HBD distribution list that is currently being > maintained by Pat Babcock and myself. > However, I cannot vouch for any previous "owner" of the list. What they > have done with it is unknown to me. Mike Hughes wrote: > I too have been receiving un-solicited email advertising homebrewing > supplies. This started after the AOB took over the digest. Can't help > but wonder if the reason they offered to manage the digest was so that > they could get their money grubbing hands on the list. I think it > stinks. The spammings that you are refering to did not originate at the AOB/AHA. Also, we have never sold or given the HBD distribution list to anyone other than Pat & Karl - and I know that they have put too much work into the HBD to abuse the list. I would agree with Jeff Knaggs who wrote: > As a data point: I haven't been receiving the spam. I subscribed well > before the AOB transition. So I would guess that the spammer(s) > is picking addresses from the archives or has a popular beer web site > and is using it to record addresses. And Randy Erickson who wrote: > Dave and others asked about the use of the HBD distribution list for > unsolicited mailing purposes. > > I use my work account for HBD and my home account for Usenet, > mostly. I rarely (maybe never) receive SPAM on my work account, but > it's a regular feature on the home account. Do any of you also post to > Usenet? That'd be my first suspicion. I'd also question my ISP to see > what their revenue-generating policies are. For the record, both Cathy Ewing and I have received some spam e-mail. I have even received an offer to "begin recieving letters from lovely, marriage-minded Russian ladies in St Petersburg, Russia". Trust me, this didn't come from the AOB/AHA. Slinte! - Brian Brian Rezac Administrator American Homebrewers Association (303) 447-0816 x 121 (voice) 736 Pearl Street (303) 447-2825 (fax) PO Box 1679 brian at aob.org (e-mail) Boulder, CO 80306-1679 info at aob.org (aob info) U.S.A. http://beertown.org (web) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 15:10:10 PST From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at kansas.net> Subject: New Yeast Supplier/ Baobab Tree Pub The Jethro Gump Report New Yeast Supplier on the Horizon... A new yeast supplier is gearing up to enter the market. YeasTech Laboratories, owned by Marvin Field and Todd Martin hopes to be offering product for both commercail and homebrew communities within a few months. Both are Ph.D's in microbiology and Todd has a brewing background from his work with a Kansas City brew-pub. For more info e-mail to <marvfield at worldnet.att.com> South African Builds Pub in Baobab Tree... Doug van Heerden of Duiweskloof, in the Northern province has built a pub inside a 152 foot girth baobab tree. "It has a bar, beer on tap, a sound system, seating for 15, standing room for many more and a wine cellar." Hugh Glen, of the Tree Society of South Africa, says the baobab trees bark can be used for making tea and beer, "but you have to be desperate to drink either." At a recent birthday party, "We had 57 people dancing inside the tree," said Mr. van Heerden. The hollow in the tree, which has existed for centuries, was enlarged somewhat when workers started a fire inside to drive off snakes. Mr van Heerden squared off the entrance with a chain saw, shoveled out centuries of bat guano, installed a tile floor, electricity, plumbing, and lighting. He rents out the tree for 55 USD per night for parties and weddings, and opens the tree to the public now and then. The hardest part of the renovation was to drill the 7 foot thick walls. This took 2 days. This apparently hasn't harmed the tree, which is in full bloom, and has new shoots growing from the interior walls. (Source-WSJ, 3.20.97) Jethro (Give me a Baobab Beer, Bub, I'm Desperate!) Gump Rob Moline Little Apple Brewing Company Manhattan, Kansas "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About Beer!" Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:53:52 -0700 From: brewshop at coffey.com (Jeff Sturman) Subject: They Just Don't Get It I just tried the Michelob Pale Ale and Pilsner for the first time. The Pale Ale does have a fairly noticeable hop flavor and aroma. Problem is the hop aroma and flavor is saaz. And the bottle label says this fine pale ale is made with Saaz, Tettnang and Hallertau hops. The pilsner also has a noticeable hop presence. Cascade hops that is. I thought the Pale Ale was a poor example of a pilsner, and the Pilsner tasted like a thin, fizzy attempt at an American Pale Ale. Why on earth would AB do this? Each beer style is certainly open to the brewer's interpretation, but these two beers are laughable. Maybe the bottling equipment got confused and swithched the labels on these two bottles? jeff casper, wy Return to table of contents
Date: 20 Mar 1997 13:26:33 U From: "Ray Robert" <Ray_Robert at bah.com> Subject: Brew architecture questions Hi All: Gearing up for the spring brewing season, I wanted to poll the collective on brew setups. Currently, I set up and tear down my system every time because of space constraints. My question is: Are there any ingenious solutions to approximate the three tier gravity type systems that would apply to my situation? I was thinking of using a rope and pulley system to load and elevate my sparge tank, mash tun, and keg at various points of the brew process. Anyone else do this, or is this nuts? "building complex solutions to simple problems" Regards Robert Ray ray_robert at bah.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:54:54 -0500 From: ajdel at nospmindspring.com (A. J. deLange) Subject: Microscopes Dave Houseman asked about what to look for in a microscope for brewing. What is really desired is a so-called "phase contrast" microscope. These instruments convert modulations in the index of refraction of the specimen into intensity modulation of the light which passes through so that the yeast can be seen without staining and their internal structure is revealed. Needless to say, phase contrast microscopes are more expensive than ordinary bright field microscopes but not terribly so. Some bright field microscopes can be fitted with a phase contrast kit (special objectives and sub-stage optics) which is really the best of both worlds as you can look at yeast morphology with a phase contrast objective (and substage optics) and then switch to bright field objective (and condenser) for cell counts and looking at bugs. Avoid toy microscopes like the plague. Try to get a used laboratory or student (medical student, not high school) microscope. Good ones cost well over a grand new so be prepared to shell out several hundred for a used one in decent shape. Really high power is not necessary. 100x is OK for cell counts and 400x will suffice for looking at yeast and most bugs. Magnifications much higher than this are not generally needed and often involve the use of immersion oil which is a real nuisance (IMO). As for stains, perhaps the most useful is methylene blue which is taken up by dead yeast cells but not living ones and is therefore used in determining what fraction of the cells in a sample are viable. Gram's stain (stains, actually) can be used to distinguish between Gram positive and Gram negative bacteria which have snuck into your beer but this in not usually necessary as the most important piece of information is that they are there at all. If you are shelling out hundreds of dollars for a 'scope it would be foolish not to spend a few extra for a hemacytometer. This is a special slide ruled with a grid which is used to count the number of cells in a mL of wort. This is really the only practical way to determine your pitching rate. A. J. deLange - Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore. - --> --> --> To reply remove "nosp" from address. <-- <-- Return to table of contents