HOMEBREW Digest #2396 Mon 14 April 1997

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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Inaccurate Scale (Steve Alexander)
  Deutschland bound! (pablo)
  HUGH BAIRD MALT ANALYSIS (Chris McAtee)
  N2: Yaarrgghhh!!! (pbabcock.ford)
  Re:Favorite Extracts Anyone? (John Goldthwaite) (Neil L Flatter)
  decoction (Steve Alexander)
  Re: Black & Tan (Brian Bliss)
  Altbier/bittering hops/grapefruit/SS cleaner/isinglass/PU/hop profiles (korz)
  hot break/PU & tannoids/Alt & Koelsch/chillhaze/Biscuit/Guinness/autolysis/HLT/NutBrown/F-C/DWC Pils/Ireks (korz)
  Re: Malt Analysis (Jeff Renner)
  Mead making ("Sandow, Matthew")
  Electric Chillers et al ("Sandow, Matthew")
  Re: Inaccurate Scale (Tom Gaskell)
  Re: Cooler mash tun/Aluminum brew ware (Scott Murman)
  Yeast (Mark_Snyder)
  PID controllers (Louis Bonham)
  Storage of Extracts, Grains, etc. ("Rodroy Fingerhead")
  FWIW AHA and The Beer Bill of Rights (Jason Henning)
  PU Tannins (Charlie Scandrett)
  Polder Digital thermometers (Ian Smith)
  St Lous Breweries/Brewpubs (Rob Kienle)
  tim's extraction problem (BAYEROSPACE)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:13:17 -0400 From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com> Subject: Inaccurate Scale Rick Olivo wrote ... >George De Pero wrote: It's George De Piro >>The other big improvement came when I realized that the shop I was >>purchasing my grain from was using a bathroom scale to weigh it out, and ... >on them. These people are perpetrating retail fraud on their unwitting >customers. They deserve to be nailed, PDQ! This is an important issue. I It probably is technically fraud, but how about talking to the shop owner first before making lawyers meat of a local small business. Frankly some small shop owners are pretty unwitting too, and you may find that their intentions are far from fraudulent. Steve Alexander Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:15:16 -0500 (CDT) From: pablo <pjm at milliways.uark.edu> Subject: Deutschland bound! *de-lurk* HB Digesters, In less than a month, my wife and I are off to Germany (mostly Bavaria), a bit of Austria, Denmark, and Sweden, on our belated honeymoon (got married last Oct.!). We'll be in Munich & environs from about May 10th through the 14th/15th. Then on to Salzburg (and perhaps Berchtesgaden), Nurnburg, and finally a day or two in Berlin, before going on to Denmark and my wife's relatives in Sweden. O.K., now that you all know my intinerary... ;-) I'd like to get _somewhat_ of an idea of what's good (or better, what to avoid!) while over there. Of course, in the beerhalls, the draft is a gimme (Spaten, Paulaner, etc., depending) I know, but what I'm really wanting to know about are the "usual" beers to be found in restaurants and such; what's good, and what's not-so-good? If such a thing exists (God forbid), I'd like to avoid the German equivalent of "budmilloors". I also want to avoid being served what they _think_ Americans like. I've considered not posting this; perhaps I should just let it be an adventure and ask the locals in my halting, tourist German about what beers are good.... But, I must admit, I've always enjoyed reading the posts about people's beer drinking experiences abroad (sorry if that's tacit encouragement to post a reply here, instead of privately!). So, I'd _very_ much appreciate hearing from any and all about beer drinking custom, brands to look for, etc. in Germany (esp. the cities listed above). I invite private responses, and thank you all in advance! Homebrewing in Arkansas, -Paul Morstad Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:40:11 -0600 From: mcatee at cadvision.com (Chris McAtee) Subject: HUGH BAIRD MALT ANALYSIS I just noticed that this analysis is dated 28.07.93 so take it for what it's worth. Perhaps British malt has not changed much. Hugh Baird Pale Ale Malt ------------------------------------ Moisture 3.0% max Extract FGDB 82.0% min Fine/Coarse Extract Dif 1.0-2.0% Colour: (ASBC) 2.0-3.0% Protein 10.5% max Soluble/Total Protein 41-44% Diastatic Activity 45 degrees L min Hope this helps! Chris McAtee Calgary, Alberta Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:43:58 EDT From: pbabcock.ford at e-mail.com Subject: N2: Yaarrgghhh!!! In HBD 2394, Ken Schwartz suggests that the B&T effect might just be attributable to the "dissolved" nitrogen in the Guinness; Rob Moline alludes to a similar suggestion one digest prior (I sense that Scot Abene will throw his hat into the ring, too)... First, let me say I've seen B&T's made with beers not sporting the N2CO2 mix. Like BOTTLED Guinness, for instance. Second, CO2/N2 blends are used to drive beer through systems requiring higher-than-carbonation-pressure-at-temperature pressure (like a sparkler head or a "widget" can, for instance) because N2 won't dissolve in the beer and upset the carbonation - referring to the "bubbling" rather than the dissolved CO2, here - and won't facilitate staling. (BTW: many fast-moving beers employ "mixers" that blend air into the CO2 lines. Not recommended for beers that will spend any amount of time under the head created, though...) Can somebody put this to rest? (Please refrain from providing references from the "esteemed" Michael Lewis.) Will N2 dissolve in beer? Anyone out there (AJ?) equipped to filter or otherwise render a beer "dead", keg it, and place it under a pure N2 head to see if it "nitrogenates"? Will I ever get out of Edison? Huh? (Isn't it amazing how these threads spawn each other?!?) Best regards, Patrick G. Babcock Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:24:56 -0400 From: neil.flatter at juno.com (Neil L Flatter) Subject: Re:Favorite Extracts Anyone? (John Goldthwaite) I got to thinking it might be nice if the more experienced folks were up for a little thread on great/tasty/fave extracts, to help out the newbs and intermediates in the crowd. I like using the lightest stuff I can find and then adding specialty grains for flavor and color. Use leaf or plug hops and liquid yeast and your extract beers will start to approach the all grainers. +++++++ Much the same way I started my move to all-grain. I still brew an occassional extract. My favorite syles are big, malty beers so I like the Brewferm series. Admittedly, they are expensive, especially when you double can, but i like the styles they produce. If you watch the sale flyers, you can get out of date cans for ~15$. As far as adding the extra grains, hops, etc. I usually buy a split case of light/golden and wheat. If I want my typical heavy, malty beer, I use the L/G and a partial mash of grain. If I making it for someone else to drink, I use the wheat. I also have used the wheat, along with two cans of Brewferm, say the double, to make a 5.5 gal batch. [Make sure you use a starter of Belgian yeast, or it doesn't want to ferment. Such heavy beer also seems to take months to age.] - ---------- Neil Flatter Marriage is 90% giving. The trick to a good marriage 913 7th Avenue knowing when to take your 10%. -Grandpa Inman Terre Haute, IN 47807-1109 Home: 812-235-2682 Neil.Flatter at Juno.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:27:17 -0400 From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com> Subject: decoction C&S Peterson says .. >Is this true? I thought that for a given malt, the lower the modification, >the higher the enzyme potential. The free enzyme levels rise dramatically during malting, but eventually peak and start to decline slightly. More highly modified malts, before kilning, probably have greater diastatic power. There are very significant differences due to protein content and barley variety. The higher kilning temperatures of a pale ale malt will probably obscure any difference due to modification. In any case there are apparently no malts available today that aren't very well modified. Look at the S/T ratio or the Kolbach ratings of malts that were recently posted. Lager and Pils malts should have a figure around 35-38, and pale ale malts from 40-44. Instead all malts today seem to have figures from 42 to 46!! Highly modified even by pale ale standards. >Also, I'd like to question whether this is in fact a decoction. As we have >discussed on this thread before, there are varing components that bring in the >malt flavor to the final product. Specifically, this procedure may provide >some Mailliard and carmelization reactions, but will it bring some of the >*desired* phenols and tannins into the brew that one would get by boiling the >grain? My own WAG is that these other components provide the subtile >"complexity" of decoction brews. Maillard product are certainly part of the decoction flavor. As Charlie Scandrett points out, phenols enhance strecker degradation of the intermediate product. The smaller phenolics molecules can have a very positive effect on flavors as well. Part of the phenol story that I don't understand to-date is how the tannins, or tannoids (I assume CharlieS is refering to phenolic polymers not quite big enough to actually tan leather) are bound to the husk and pericarp. I'm guessing that the phenolic hydroxyl oxygen is somehow bound to the husk - perhaps to protein or cellulose material. This would explain some things about the pH dependence of the phenols' release. Some of the smaller phenolics appear in the aleurone layer and seem to be involved with plant growth regulation - something like hormones. As for the sources of malty flavors, I'd like to see more info on the no-sparge wort constituents. Specifically why the later runnings detract from malt flavor more than does water. Steve Alexander Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 14:21:56 CDT From: Brian Bliss <brianb at microware.com> Subject: Re: Black & Tan >A further speculation on the Floating Guiness phenomenon is that perhaps the >dissolved nitrogen in draft Guiness helps suspend the liquid at the top of >the glass? quite true. next time, try letting the guilnness decarbonate/denitrogenate before your pour it. then, it doesn't float! it only makes sense - why else would a heavier S.G. beer (i.e. guinness) float on a lighter SG beer (presumably, the "tan" is lighter in SG, or at least the Guinness still floats if it does). bb Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:11:58 -0500 (CDT) From: korz at xnet.com Subject: Altbier/bittering hops/grapefruit/SS cleaner/isinglass/PU/hop profiles I've just ploughed through four HBDs and have a few comments, but in an effort to keep the signal-to-noise ratio high (as it has been lately), I'll just parapharse the posts I'm commenting on. Matt asks about his Altbier recipe. I've discussed this at length with him offline, but my main comments are that Altbier recipes: should not really contain a significant amount of crystal malt, should be based on Munich malt or extract based on Munich malt (like Marie's Munich Malt extract from St. Pats or German Gold from William's), shouldn't have more than a miniscule touch of roasted malts, should be fermented cool (like around 63F), I prefer Wyeast #1338 -- certainly don't use an attenuative yeast, Spalt hops are preferred, but other German and Czech hops will do, hop to about 50 IBUs, and should have no flavour or aroma hops (50IBUs of boiling hops *will* bleed through some flavour and a tiny bit of aroma). *** Dave asks "isn't the aroma contribution of the bittering hops pretty much boiled off?" Yes, pretty much, but there definitely is a difference when you bitter with different hop varieties. Some components of the hops (I don't know which) that contribute more than just bitterness do carry through to the end of the boil and 30 IBUs with Fuggle will be different than 30 IBUs with Saaz. *** John says he got strong grapefruit taste from the Wyeast #1275. I have used it twice and didn't get that. The mention of "grapefruit" always gets me thinking about Cascade, Centennial, and (to a lesser extent) Columbus hops. Did you use any of these? *** Art praises Stainless Steel cleaner (water, silicone, and mineral oil). Perhaps this is obvious, but maybe not... I would not use this on any surface that would actually *touch* the beer (i.e. inside of the kegs, inside of the kettle) for fear that the oil would affect head retention, no? What about getting it on things like the corny ball-valve o-rings? They're in the beer path too! *** Dave asks if liquid isinglass spoils when unrefrigerated. Yes. It will lose its viscosity. I've read where a day or two at 68F is enough to ruin it. If it is still thick (like pancake syrup) it's okay, but if it's watery (like, well, water), then it's shot. *** Michael asks about his Pilsner Urquell recipe. You can add a little 20L crystal malt (e.g. DWC CaraVienna) which would add a light toasty, crackery flavour. I would limit it to 1/2# so as to not make the beer too sweet. Wyeast #2007 is not the right yeast... that's the BUDWEISER yeast! It is well-known for it's green-apple character from acetaldehyde. I would use the newest Wyeast Pilsner yeast (in fact, that's what I *did* use on my last PU clone try)... sorry, I don't recall the number, but it begins with a "3." *** John (in his hop profiles) and Graham mention that Fuggles and Styrian Goldings are genetically the same hops. This is true, but they are clearly very different in aroma and flavour. Styrian Goldings are incredibly resiny and I feel they are far more similar to true Goldings than they are to Fuggles which are slightly floral (as are the Styrian Goldings) but also have a woody character which is not present in the SG or EKG. On the subject of hop characteristics, I'd like to point out that the subsitutions recommended by the profiles John is posting, are *stylistically* correct, but not *aromatic* or *flavour* equivalents in most cases. For example, for Fuggle hops, Willamette, East Kent Goldings, and Styrian Goldings are recommented. If you had a recipe in which Fuggles were specified for dryhopping, it would presumably be a British Ale and therefore it would be stylistically correct to dryhop with these three varieties although the resulting beer would have a considerably different aroma. The Willamette (in my opinion) would be closest, but the other two would be *very* different. In other cases, the similarities are much closer (e.g. Cascade and Centennial). Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:38:07 -0500 (CDT) From: korz at xnet.com Subject: hot break/PU & tannoids/Alt & Koelsch/chillhaze/Biscuit/Guinness/autolysis/HLT/NutBrown/F-C/DWC Pils/Ireks Sorry about the length... Charlie writes: >Interesting, after three hours the hot break becomes so denatured it >begins to redissolve! I recall that in George Fix's PoBS, he says that after only two hours the hot break begins to redissolve. Furthermore, DeClerk (in Textbook of Brewing) says that given optimal conditions, 1 hour is the ideal boil time (although we rarely achieve these and a longer boil is usually required). The question remains, is the redisolving of hot break bad or good? My gut feeling says bad, but there are many beers (mostly Belgian that I know of... Liefmans, Cantillon, several Trappists...) that are (or were, as in the case of Liefmans) made with very long boils. *** Charlie also wrote that PU has the highest tannoid content, yet he suggested that a pseudo-decoction followed by a good recirculation would help reduce the tannoids. PU is triple-decocted, so what gives? Is it the soft water and therefore higher than optimal mash pH at Pilsensky Prazdroj? *** Regarding Duesseldorfer Altbiers in the US, most are not available. The best, Zum Uerige, is a brewpub. They do bottle, but the bottling is very primitive (they close the bale-lock bottles BY HAND) and the recommended shelf-life is only 30 days (the lables have bottled-on dates and best-by dates only 30 days apart). I've heard that Im Fuchschen is available in the US, and it is a fine example of the style. The original Widmer Alt was a Zum Uerige clone, but was "softened" in subsequent years. They now also make an Ur-Alt (original Alt) which is supposed to be their original recipe. Finally, I believe that Schlosser Alt may be imported into the US and is in the same league (in my opinion) as Zum Uerige and Im Fuchschen, so if you can find it, grab it. I disagree that Grolsh Amber is a good or even fair example of the style. Not nearly malty or bitter enough. Sort of "Miller Lite" meets "Zum Uerige." I have had Hannen Alt in Koeln and while it is made in Duesseldorf, either it was an old bottle or the bittering is just weak -- I though it was underhopped. Schmaltz Alt rhymes, but isn't even close. Pinkus Muenster Alt, is made in Muenster and is a sour, pale, wheat beer... I like it, but it's no more a Duesseldorfer Alt than Kindl Weiss is. I have not tried Harpoon Alt... we got one or two Harpoon Ales here a few years ago, but the Alt was not one of them. Stroh's makes an Alt under the Augsburger label... see Grolsh Amber, above. Someone asked about Koelsches too. Again, the best are brewpubs and don't bottle. I had a pretty decent one in a tin (Dom was the brand), but I've never seen it here. If you have tasted Utenos Beer from Lithuania, I think it has some Koelsch-like character... athough it is a little too dark for the style. Hart Brewing in Kalima, WA makes a Kaelsch (cute name and respectful of the appelation) which I thought was a reasonable example of the style, although most of the best Koelsches in Koeln had a little DMS which I thought odd for an ale, but it lended a very grainy nose that fit the style well (like sticking your face in a tun of spent grain). *** Adam says he has chill haze despite a protein rest. Have you checked your pH? Is it below 5.5? You could be extracting excessive polyphenols as well as working your protein rest at a non-optimal pH. *** Charles suggests making Munich and Biscuit malts with a pressurecooker. Munich, yes... Aromatic, yes... Weyermann Melanoidin malt, yes... Biscuit, no... Biscuit is like Briess Victory malt: a toasted pale malt. It is not high-kilned like the aforementioned malts. *** Raymond says Guinness Extra Stout has an OG of 1.040. I believe you are thinking of the Draught version which is, indeed, 1.038 or 1.040 OG. The bottled version is closer to 1.050 OG. I think you need the Draught (or at least the canned) version to float on top of another beer. *** Craig asks about McNeill's statement (in Brewing Techniques) that adding the second 5bbl wort to the first 5bbl between 7 and 24 hours reduces the rist of autolysis because "the pitching rate was right for the first batch and grows to the right level for the second batch." Craig then asks "When does autolysis set in?" Autolysis only occurs when the yeast are starved. There is no autolysis when the yeast has plenty of sugars to munch on. I feel that risk of autolysis is way overblown and if you pitch healthy yeast in reasonable amounts, the risk of autolysis for most strains is virtually nil. If the yeast has to grow a lot, and there are not enough sterols or oxygen available, the offspring have to inherit their sterols from their parents and their membranes get weak. Based upon my experience and all the *professional* texts I've read, I think that overpitching is NOT a contributor to autolysis risk. *Underpitching* is. *** Randy asks for comments on his ideas for hot liquor supply. One thing that I noticed is that #3 (demand-type water heater) would prevent you from acidifying or adding brewing salts to your sparge water. I had considered this too, but dismissed it for these two reasons. *** Charley asks what makes "Nut Brown" a "Nut Brown." The answer is: the colour. My understanding is that "Nut Brown" is a colour (of a breed of horses, I believe?). *** John mentions DWC Pils and how he uses it without a protein rest and gets no more trub than with English Pale Ale malt. Hmmm... do you mash at 150F? I tend to mash either around 155F or 158F. Presumably there could be some proteolytic activity (not much) still at 150F. Note in rjlee's post from HBD #2391, that DWC Pils F/C ratio is 2.0. This is higher than most. The higher the F/C ratio is, the lower the modification of the malt. The F/C ratio is the difference between a fine crush (lab wort) and a course crush (real brewer's wort). If the difference is small, that means that the protein matrix in the endosperm has been well dissassembled and the starch is more readily available even if the crush is not fine. This is just further indication that the DWC Pils is on the low end of the modification range for modern malts. I have only used the Pils mixed with other malts, but like I said before, 15 minute protein rest at 135F with the DWC Pale Ale really reduced the volume of the hot and cold break by at least 50%. *** John asks about Ireks Vienna malt and is it one of those "bad" malts that George and Laurie Fix refer to... No. Ireks is made by Weyermann and is a very good malt. I have not used their Vienna, but I've used the Munich under both the Ireks and Weyermann labels and it's outstanding! Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:59:00 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Malt Analysis Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com> wrote: > > Breiss Breiss Durst > 2row 6row pilsen > pale pale > 6/96 6/96 1/97 > --------------------------- >moisture 4.0 4.0 3.0 >Extract FG dry >80.5 >78 80 >F/C <1.8 <1.8 1.5 >color 1.8L 1.8L 2.9EBC >Alpha Amylase 46 44 --- >Sol. Protein ~5.4 ~5.7 4.7 >Tot. Protein 12-12.5 12.5-13.5 10.9 >S/T 44 44 42.9 >Diastatic Power 140 150 --- > >can anyone add a recent english pale-ale malt analysis ? No, but here is what I do have to give an idea of variability: Breiss Breiss Durst Durst Durst Durst 2row 6row pilsen Vienna Munich Wheat pale pale 3/26/96 1/10/97 3/6/97 2/11/97 2/6/97 --------------------------------------------------- moisture 4.0 4.0 3.0 3.9 4.5 5.0 Extract FG dry 81.0 79.0 82.4 81.7 82.2 85.9 F/C <1.8 <1.8 1.7 1.4 1.5 1.0 color 1.8L 1.8L 2.9EBC 6.0EBC 20.6EBC 3.4EBC Alpha Amylase 50 40 --- Sol. Protein ~5.3 ~5.4 Sol. Nitrogen 0.689 0.737 0.751 0.769 Tot. Protein 11.7 12.0 10.3 10.5 10.6 11.4 S/T 44 44 42.9 43.8 44.1 42.2 Diastatic Power 140 150 Diastatic Power (What units?) 275 --- 173 --- Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:51:00 +1000 From: "Sandow, Matthew" <MSandow at nibucorp.telstra.com.au> Subject: Mead making Phil, reference your message about making mead: > - ------------------- > I've just found a cheap source of honey. Are there any good on-line sources > of how-to mead makeing out there? Wheres a good place to start? Mead, Cyser, > meloguin (sp) methoguin Crystal Meth? (NOT) Braggot? I saw some cider in the > store last night it had Potassium Sorbate and Maltic acid listed as > additives, how bad is that. I know your supposed to get no-preservatives for > cider, but I don't feel like waiting till october for apple season again. > Denis, What part of the country are you in? Ill take those mead yeasties off > your hands! I have been making mead for a while and I think that the best way to start is by making a basic dry mead. It is the classic style and IMHO the easiest one to make, which makes it especially suited for a new brewer. A couple of personal observations: You mention that you have a cheap source of honey (lucky sod) - mead is directly influence by the type of honey you use. I suggest that you use a very light (ie pale) honey such as lucerne. Many of the darker honeys have strong flavours which whilst nice on toast can be a bit much when fermented. I use a small glass carboy for my mead (approx 5 litres capacity is fine) which means that it is cheaper to make and ferment. Mead takes several weeks to months (depending on type) to ferment so the last thing you need is a 220 litre drum sitting in the laundry for five weeks. There are a number of commercial mead yeasts available which are suited to the type of sugar and concentration of alchohol in mead. A lot of commercial wine and beer style yeasts stop fermenting early and some can't ferment honey at all. I suggest you contact your local brew shop and ask them for a locally available yeast. I have on occassion used yeast from a commercially available mead which I revived in a similar manner as in beer making, but it is a fair hassle and most meads are decantered and filtered similar to wine so losing the yeast. One way of finding the yeast is in a naturally sparkling mead. Regarding the additives l personally don't like using anything with preservatives added. Some people add tannic or citric acid to mead to make it less sweet but I prefer the natural product. I don't have any of my books here at work but if you are interested I can post a couple of simple brews which I have used with success. Mead is easy to make and if you have successfully brewed beer you should have no problems with mead. Same rules as beer - be clean, don't hurry, and enjoy responsibly good luck and wassail Matthew Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:01:00 +1000 From: "Sandow, Matthew" <MSandow at nibucorp.telstra.com.au> Subject: Electric Chillers et al I have been reading this thread with interest because summer has just finished here in OZ <sigh> To be honest I think the solutions so far mentioned are fairly hightech and not really necessary for the average home brewer. The way I do it is stand my fermenter in the laundry tub, fill it (the tub) with water and drape a wet towel over the fermenter. The evaporative effect lowers the temperature considerably and will comfortably keep the mix within brewing tolerances. In addition the water surrounding the fermenter in the tub, acts like a heat sink. This is IMO a simple, low tech to the problem regards Matthew Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:53:34 -0400 (EDT) From: gaskell at borg.com (Tom Gaskell) Subject: Re: Inaccurate Scale Rick Olivo wrote: > George De Pero (-5 sp) wrote: > > the shop I was purchasing my grain from was using a bathroom > > scale to weigh it out, and I was getting shorted every time! > George, you should report these jokers to your state's Department > of Commerce's division of weights and measures. <snip> > These people are perpetrating retail fraud on their unwitting > customers. They deserve to be nailed, PDQ! <snip> > It sure goes to show that the buyer should beware-- look to make > sure your grain seller is using a certified scale! Whoa! Hold on there, Rick. You seem to be willing to pay a bunch of money to ensure that you don't get screwed out of a few dimes. I feel that George's response is a more sane approach, put the SOB out of business by avoiding his unethical business practices and not allowing yourself to be screwed anymore. Also remember, we are only talking about bulk malt here. Maybe Al Korzonas will jump in and tell us how little profit there is in bulk (not 25 kilo bags or one pound prepackaged), retail barley malt sales. HB retailers I have spoken to would much rather just sell extract (much more profitable with no mess or special equipment, ie. bins, mills, scales, bags, etc.). The shops I go to are small, slightly profitable?, local businesses that I visit because they have acceptable prices, are conveniently located and I like the beer chat that goes on while I shop. When I am getting brew stuff, I am Tool Time's Tim Taylor and they are the local Binford franchise. ;^) Both of the brew shops I frequent use uncertified (one bathroom, the other electronic postal) scales, and I have no gripe with either one. As a matter of fact, they tend to err in my favor because they are in the HB retail business for the long haul, not a fast buck. Because they do not have the added cost of obtaining, and maintaining, certified scales (enough additional cost to put my local moonlighting shop out of business), the amount of my money that would go for the shop's higher overhead stays in my pocket, right where I like it. Scale certification will do nothing for the brewer but increase local, retail prices by increasing the hidden taxes on malt, close shops with small profit margins, reduce competition, and thereby, drive prices ever higher. Rick, I agree with your suggestion, "buyer beware," but please don't insist that these guys pay hundreds of dollars more in annual hidden business taxes because I run the risk of losing a dollar's worth of grain. A little bit of skepticism on George's part may have saved him some math errors and a few bucks, but his skills and ability as an outstanding brewer remain unscathed. If you have a concern, check the weight with an accurate scale. Drop by the butcher shop with a couple of bottles of your best and ask them to throw your your grain on their certified scale. While you are there, try to estimate how many sales per day the butcher uses his scale. Then consider how much additional cost the scale adds to each purchase of goods sold by weight. I think that you will agree that the cost added to a single sale is negligible due to the volume of business. Now consider the number of daily bulk grain purchases made in your local homebrew shop versus the number of sales made by the butcher. Now extrapolate what would happen to the price of bulk malt if they had to pay for certified scales. I think that you will agree that grain would become much more expensive. It turns out that you would pay dearly for the security against underweight purchases you had gained. If the HB retailer is a money-grubbing asshole, boycott the shop and tell every brewer you know to do the same. If you feel like it, tell the shop owner that you are sick of being screwed and that you will take immense joy in seeing the shop close the doors for the last time. George's retailer is probably not driving around town in the profit he stole from George, and others; he might have pocketed a hundred bucks total. But I am confident that he will be losing a lot of income in the not-too-distant future. What do you think, George? Folks, this is a simple lesson in ethics. Thanks for your concern, Rick, but I currently have more regulation, certification, and hidden taxation, than I ever wanted. I apologize for my long winded response. Cheers, Tom Gaskell Clayville, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:40:01 -0700 From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> Subject: Re: Cooler mash tun/Aluminum brew ware On Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:50:58 -0400 Joseph Bonner wrote: > > In shopping around, the Gott coolers seem to be very elusive, at least in > NYC. Gott was bought out by Rubbermaid. Fear not though, Rubbermaid still makes the 5 and 10 gallon cylindrical coolers. They do have a retail store that will mail order. The number is 330-264-7645. 10-3 EST. > In HBD #2391, Russ Brodeur <r-brodeur at ds.mc.ti.com> noted some apprehension > about using an aluminum pressure cooker for decoctions. Russ, I think the > rumours that link Al with Alzheimer's have been greatly exaggerated > (apologies to Mark Twain). Here we go again. The connection between aluminum and Alzheimer's has to do with aluminum in the drinking water. If it's in your water supply you're already screwed though, so don't worry about it. There's been no concrete findings either way though, so don't worry about it. It has nothing to do with aluminum cooking utensils, so don't worry about it. If you want a health risk to worry about try the second hand smoke in your local pub. SM http://www.best.com/~smurman/zymurgy (among other things) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 06:54:18 -0500 From: Mark_Snyder at WMX.COM Subject: Yeast Mark Snyder 04-11-97 06:54 AM I've read a number of threads on the HBD regarding Yeast: liquid vs. dry, reusing, washing, etc. and have yet to see anyone reference my solution to the situation. Keep in mind, I'm still a newbie, just finished my fourth extract batch (with steeped specialty grains and maple sap instead of water) and have a lot yet to learn and do. But, I've found my best resource when homebrewing is my local microbrewerys assistant brewmaster. We've spent numerous hours in their fermentation room (with beers in hand) as I pick his brain on techniques for brewing, types of hops used in my favorite microbrew, whether I need to worry that my 1 hour steeping of Munich malt (thanks for the tip, Ken Schwartz) will result in excess starch that could result in off-flavored beer with time (in his opinion, it won't), how he prepares his cask conditioned ales for tapping, and lastly, what type of yeast they use. Turns out to be a proprietary Wyeast strain used only by them and another microbrewery, and they reuse their yeast from light to darker types of beer (not ale to lager or vice-versa). I've even gotten tips from the brewmaster when he's been around. But nothing to compare with the information from the assistant brewmaster, he loves to talk. In his words "we're all homebrewers, some just do it on a larger scale". Nonetheless, he is always more than happy to take my PINT jar and fill it with yeast from his fermentation tanks(once again, with beers in hand). Always bitches about my sterilizing with bleach and resterilizes with iodophor before filling my jar. I'll tell you what though, you pitch a pint of yeast (settles down to about an inch or so in the jar after about 1 hour) into a 5 gallon batch of either extract or all-grain (I'm sure it will work for you all-grainers, too), and you'll see something really rock and roll after less than 2 hours. I do add about 1/4 cup of wort to get things started before I pitch, though. And, I guess I could reuse the cake in the bottom of my carboy, but why bother? More is available when I want it, and it's a good excuse to grab a beer and see some friends. They'll even store it in their cooler until I've had my last beer and am ready to go! Try it folks, I'm sure you'll like it. This stuff is fresh, and no more smack packs with 2 day waits. And these guys love to talk about their jobs .... just like we all love to talk about our hobbies! Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:26:29 -0500 From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at phoenix.net> Subject: PID controllers Keith Royster sings the praises of PID controllers for his RIMS. Keith is 100% correct; I've been using one on my RIMS for about three years, and these controllers allow you to really control your mash temp to well within 1F without overshoots. The downside is the cost. The cheapest PID controllers I have seen retail in the $150-200 range, and that doesn't include a relay that can handle the heavy current load of a RIMS heater. If you're looking for a PID controller, I suggest hitting the electronic surplus shops, electronic flea markets, and ham radio swap meets in your area. I was able to score two brand new Fuji PID controllers (one is 1/4 DIN and the other is 1/8 DIN) for the princely sum of $20. This was quite a deal, but I've seen PID controllers available in the surplus channels for an average price of around $100. And whatever you do, *don't* hook up a PID controller to your brewing fridge -- you'll fry your fridge's compressor in very short order. Louis K. Bonham lkbonham at phoenix.net Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:20:22 PDT From: "Rodroy Fingerhead" <sjbh64 at hotmail.com> Subject: Storage of Extracts, Grains, etc. Thanks to everyone who responded to my question re: brown vs green bottles. The consensus seemed to be that green is fine if I avoid exposure to light, but brown is best for competition. I've searched the HRB archives and can't find any information about storing materials. It seems that most recipes call for 5 gallon batches. That's a lot of beer and would last me a long time. So, can I make half-batches? And if so, will this affect boiling, fermenting, or anything else? Also, how does one store opened, unused materials? Or, can they be stored at all once they are opened. One last question: I see dozens of suppliers on the web with vastly different prices for what seem like the same items. Can anyone suggest a reliable, affordable supplier? Thanks Rodroy Fingerhead - --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - --------------------------------------------------------- Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 03:04:31 -0700 From: Jason Henning <huskers at cco.net> Subject: FWIW AHA and The Beer Bill of Rights Hello Friends- >From the FWIW department: A few HBD's back I bashed the AHA for not sending my winter edition of Zymurgy, even after e-mailing their subscrition department. I'm happy to report I got it yesterday. It has a cover with brillant colors of Berlin....just like the one I bought three months ago. I found a mildly amusing web page, the 'Beer Bill of Rights' http://www.apricot.com/~jimcat/writings/misc/beerbill.html Cheers, Jason Henning (huskers at cco.net) Big Red Alchemy and Brewing Olympia, Washington - "It's the water" Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:29:54 +1000 (EST) From: Charlie Scandrett <merino at buggs.cynergy.com.au> Subject: PU Tannins Al K wrote >Charlie also wrote that PU has the highest tannoid content, yet >he suggested that a pseudo-decoction followed by a good recirculation >would help reduce the tannoids. PU is triple-decocted, so what >gives? Is it the soft water and therefore higher than optimal >mash pH at Pilsensky Prazdroj? All this stuff has come from *slowly* writing a Lauter FAQ which I haven't published yet, so it may seem esoteric to some. Triple decoction would break down the pericarp and husks in modern malts. This is why fully decocted lauters are shallower, the bed is gooey and less permeable. Then a high pH soft water (remember distilled water is a good solvent) sparge without much recirculation would give a high polyphenol content. Add a bit of oxidation and you have Tannin City! (Astringent polyphenols are oxidised polyphenols or "tannoids") I don't know what PU do, but their beer is good for tanning kangaroo hides by the time it gets to Australia. The point of psuedo decoction (long 75-78C mashout)is to create the kind of *hot break in the mash* that decoction does without the polyphenol extraction risk. With adequate recycling this hot break complexes with the polyphenols in the wort to keep them in the grain bed. Some German texts advise against mashout as it releases more starch while denaturing enzymes to convert that starch. Withholding some grain-free, enzyme-rich fluid before mashout and adding it back later overcomes this objection. The increased extract and flavour yield of fuller gelatinisation and the higher permeability of a hotter lauter and the beneficial filtering effect of hot break in the grain bed can then be realised. With creative kettle/pressure cooker teechniques with the first runnings, I believe an authentic lager flavour can be had. Charlie (Brisbane, Australia) I agree with Jethro, "why decoct?" Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:08:29 -0600 (MDT) From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com> Subject: Polder Digital thermometers The problem with the "stuck" readings on other problems with these units is immersion in hot fluids. I fixed mine by sliding a 12" long piece teflon heat shrink tubing over the probe, around the curved part and over the braid. The probe sticks out of the teflon at the bottom by 2 or 3 inches. Hit the heat shrink with a heat gun and voila ! no more hot water going down the probe via the braided wires ! If the probe does get "stuck" - you can fix it by putting it in the oven (but not the connector !) at say 300 F for 1 hour. This will dry it out. Cheers Ian Smith isrs at rela.uucp.netcom.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:45:02 -0500 From: Rob Kienle <rkienle at interaccess.com> Subject: St Lous Breweries/Brewpubs I'm making a trip to St. Louis for a wedding in June and have about 6 hours to kill between the ceremony and reception. Any suggestions for a good brewpub or a brew tour to attend? (The obvious answer is to check out A/B, but are there any others of interest?) - -- Cheers4beers, Rob Kienle Chicago, IL rkienle at interaccess.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:07 -0600 From: M257876 at sl1001.mdc.com (BAYEROSPACE) Subject: tim's extraction problem collective homebrew conscience: tim wrote: >I need some help <snip> I'm getting miserable >extraction efficiency. I'm only getting about 21pts/lb/gal. > A little background on my mashing procedure: >I do a single step infusion at about 153-4. Half the mash goes in the four >gallon kettle, the other half goes into a 4 gallon coleman cooler. I rest >for about 90 minutes (until negative iodine test). stop. what is your water like? how much calcium, how much carbonate and bicarbonate, and what is the ph of the mash? also, what is the ratio of water to grain? how many quarts of water per pound of grain? do you gradually stir the grain into the water (at, presumably a strike temperature of around 165 f or so), or do you mash in at a lower temp and then give a boost to 153 f? what specific malt are you using? (maltster and name of the type of malt.) >I don't own a mill, so I use the one at the brew shop. I'm pretty >sure that I'm not getting a great crush, but it's pretty good. as long as you don't have a lot more than, say, 5 or 10 per cent by weight, of malt kernels that pass through *completely unscathed*, it's probably not the crush. grab a handful of the crushed malt and inspect it. is there a significant fraction of kernels that are completely untouched by the mill? do you see very fine (almost flour-like *heresy*heresy*heresy*) white granules of starchy kernel interiors in your grist? you should. you will probably also see some coarser grits that have been broken out of the husks. >And I also don't heat the mash to a mashout temperature. >Other than those two factors, is there anything else I may have >missed? mashing out would help a little, but it wouldn't take you from 21 points/lb/gal to 30. assuming your problem is with sugar production, and not lautering, check the water, crush, mash ph, and water:grain ratio, and tell us these things. chances are somebody will spot something that's a little off. and make sure your thermometer is reasonably accurate. ****************** eric fouch wrote: > reply to me via e-mail with the appropriate responses (which hopefully >won't include "Piss up a rope"). then he signs the bottom, >Bent Dick YactoBrewery hmmmm. it appears the rope-pissing comment was a serious request. brew hard, mark bayer Return to table of contents

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