---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Kalamazoo Brewing Tour (eric fouch)
  Bottle of ice questions (krkoupa)
  Re: Mortorizing a Marga mill (Chris Cooper)
  Retraction Dubbel - Me, A Beer Judge? - revisited (Charles Burns)
  whoops! ("Andy Walsh")
  Re: RIMS ("Keith Royster")
  Fluoride water ("Terry Tegner")
  RE:  RIMS sticking / Full mash decoction (George De Piro)
  Re: Open fermentation (Jeff Renner)
  commercial mead? (Amy West)
  Wort canning (Now that botulism is dead) (Gary Knull)
  Affordable Conical Fermenter (Gary Knull)
  new water supply ("David R. Lubar")
  Re: hop poles (Jay Reeves)
  Black Beers ("Michael R. Frank")
  Zymurgy Phone # (Chris Webster)
  Whitbread Dried Yeast,Dust Explosions, Sticking fermentations ("David R. Burley")
  Two Dogs Lemon Brew ("Mark Ellis")
  flocculation/CO2 leaks/YE vs. YN/breather/Marga/pLambic (korz)


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Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 15:55:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: eric fouch <S=fouch%G=eric%DDA=ID=STC021.efouch%Steelcase-Inc at mcimail.com>
Subject: Kalamazoo Brewing Tour


Date: Monday, 30 June 1997 3:18pm ET
To: STC012.HOMEBRE3 at STC010.SNADS, Kevin.Charkowski, Roger.Burdi, Todd.Ed,
    Jason.Gorman
From: Eric.Fouch at STC001
Subject: Kalamazoo Brewing Tour
In-Reply-To: The letter of Monday, 30 June 1997 2:37am ET
 
HBD-
A buddy and I took a tour of the K'zoo Brewing Company last Saturday.  The
tour was disappointingly short, and offered only generic information about
the brewing process.  The tour guide couldn't sufficiently answer my
questions, but just when I thought he was clueless, I realized he was being
cagey.  We must have looked suspicious with my twin two year old daughters in
tow, 'cause the whole time he looked like he was trying to figure out what I
was up to.
He described their mashing process as heating water to 170 F and circulating
through a 2,000# grain bed, then heating it back up to 170 F and
re-circulating it.  When I asked if they used different mash temp profiles for
different styles, he said "No, I don't think so".  He made a big point of
pointing out, and telling us to remember, that they use no filtration of any
sort, but then acted suspicious when I surmised that the bottled yeast was
therefore the same as their fermentation yeast, which he had just pointed out
was supplied exclusively to them by the same yeast manufacturer that cultures
Budwieser's yeast (and was therefore accessible).  He then declined to show us
their bottling facility (because it's "old with a bunch of equipment sitting
around"), and then proceeded to tell us (me) about the guy who ditched the
tour and was found flipping through the head brewers notebook. I guess he was
"escorted" out. I then thought I'd ask a generic question: How many different
strains of hops do you use?  The answer?  A wry "I don't think I know.."
I guess asking for the hop schedule for their Amber Ale was out of the
question.
So, Jeff, maybe you're more tactful than me, sexier, or maybe you got that
brewer fired who helped you out on that Oberon clone, but I came back with
very little useful information.
Don't get me wrong- If they feel the need to protect their formulations,
there's no reason in the world for them to tell anyone anything, and more
power to 'em]  They make outstanding brews, and I begrudge them nothing.
In fact, I rather enjoyed our little cat and mouse game, even if I didn't win.
Anyone else got an idea about their hop schedule for Bells Amber Ale?
 
Eric Fouch
Efouch at steelcase.com
Bent Dick Yactobrewery
(Soon to be *Bells Amber Knockoff North*)
Kentwood, MI


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Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 13:02:45 PST
From: krkoupa at ccmail2.srv.PacBell.COM
Subject: Bottle of ice questions

I was recently served a bottle of beer (in a hotel pub) that 
had been stored at an improperly low temperature.  When I 
opened the twist top, "pfffffft", the contents sprayed out, 
instantly leaving an iceberg inside the bottle.  The 
beertender thought I would be upset, but instead I was 
fascinated.  No, it wasn't an "ice beer."
Questions:
1. What happened?  Please explain it in terms of temperature 
and pressure, with chemistry if necessary.  Why is the beer 
liquid in the bottle until I open it, then it becomes high 
pressure gas and solid?
2. What's this reaction called?
3. Why did all the flavor go with the gas/spray?  I melted 
the ice left in the bottle and found it to be, duh, 
tasteless water, with no perception of retained alcohol 
either.
4. What if I were to capture that gas/spray?  Since no 
flavor remained, then what escaped must be "concentrated 
essence of beer."  Could I re-use it to turn water into 
beer?

Thanks in advance,
Ken Koupal
krkoupa at ccmail2.pacbell.com


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Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:58:03 -0400
From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Mortorizing a Marga mill

Hi all!

I will throw my thoughts in on the Marga malt mill, I also picked one up
last year for around $40 and have found it to be a great little mill, just 
yesterday (Sunday morning) i spent some premium time in my shop (the garage)
and emerged with a morotized Marga mill, I used a variable speed 3/8" drill
motor mounted to a wood base with a wooden spacer and a large hose clamp to
hold the motor in the correct position, I fashioned a delivery chute from
some scrap thin aluminum I had and still need to make a larger supply
hopper, I processed 12 pounds of grain last knight in about 10 minutes, what
a pleasure!  (it was 7 pounds of pale malt and 5 pounds of wheat, worked
like a champ).  I have drilled addittional holes in the roller adjustent
knob to allow for a wider range of roller gap settings.  My question is to
David Burley who stated that he uses auto spark gap gages to adjust the 
mill for a coarse and a final setting, what are the two gaps sizes? I use a
single setting but with the three rollers the first and second roller gaps
are not the same, I haven't measured them yet but will when I get home 
tonight.  


Chris Cooper , Commerce Michigan    --> Pine Haven Brewery <--
Chris_Cooper at hp.com                 --> aka. Deb's Kitchen <--
 


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Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 16:21 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: Retraction Dubbel - Me, A Beer Judge? - revisited 

So, after telling the whole world how I felt about Belgian beers (yuck),
I wander into the Winesmith, our local hombrew, wine, cigar shop the other
day looking for some racking hose. Kay the wonderful hostess looks at me
and chuckles, "there's the Belgian lover (so to speak)". Kay's got 4 beers
on tap all the time and they're always very good and usually pretty unique.

"Try this" she says and hands me a wine glass with a splash of something
dark red in it. Just as I'm about to toss it down my throat, she says "you
probably won't like it, its a Belgian...". Nearly choked right there on the
spot. But --- wow! Its delicious! Almost like a candy beer! It was a Belgian 
dubble. I had two pints in the next 45 minutes and got sloshed
becuase it was about 8% ABV. The stuff was unbelievbly good. I went home and
started searching for a good recipe immediately.

Now its been a few weeks, I found a recipe, tweaked it a bit and brewed it
last Saturday. I had picked up everything the week before but the Wyeast pack
was 4 months old and it took several days to puff up so I had to wait for
brewing day. Craig and Beth said "watch out for that Trappist yeast, it'll
blow a new hole in your ceiling...". Very good advice. The stuff built a 4
inch high head just in my 1/2 gallon starter (half gallon of wort in a one
gallon glass jug). Well, I boiled my wort for 2 hours down to 4 gallons and
racked it to a 6.5 gallon carboy. I don't have a blowoff hose, but if I
ever make this again, I'll definitely get one. The fireworks started in about
six hours and by the second day the head was a good 6 inches high. If I had
a full 5 gallons in the carboy I would have had been scraping the crud off
the ceiling, just as Beth described her activities when she used that yeast.

So here's my retraction. I must say the Belgians really do make great beer,
I just happen to prefer the darker ones. I've named this RETRACTION DUBBEL
in honor of the style and the people.

Retraction Dubbel:
========================
9.0 lbs Pale Ale (HB)
1.5 lbs Munich (DWC)
1.0 lb  Cara Pils (Breiss)
1.5 lbs Cara-Vienne (DWC- 22L)
0.5 lbs Crystal 80
1.0 lbs Belgian Dark Candi
0.75 lbs Malted Wheat
0.5 lb  Belgian Special-B

Busy grain bill huh?

1.0 oz Styrian Goldings 5.0% AA - 60 minutes
0.25 oz Hallatauer 3.7% AA - 60 minutes
0.25 oz Saaz 2.2%AA - 5 minutes

Mash at 152F for 75 minutes 1 qt per pound, fairly stiff.
Boil 2 hours for 4 gallons of wort.
OG 1.072
FG 1.012 (at racking to secondary)

I'll bring some to the August homebrew club meeting. This will be my
interpretation of a "lawnmower beer". Good thing I don't have a lawn.

Charley


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Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 15:35:27 +1000
From: "Andy Walsh" <awalsh at crl.com.au>
Subject: whoops!

I said:

"Can't comment on champagne, but the highest beer bottle CO2 pressure would
be around 2ATM at 60F and 3 volumes CO2 (from standard carbonation charts -
don't have any 70F figures). This is in the growth inhibition region, not
the fermentation cessation point (4ATM). "

Can't comment correctly on beer either.
 - 3 V/V CO2 at 60F results in 3ATM, rather than 2ATM. The CO2 chart I
looked at referred to gauge pressure, rather than "real" pressure.
 - *fermentation* does not cease (or even slow) at 4ATM. I cannot even read
my own references! I do not know an upperbound for CO2 pressure ceasing
fermentation.
 - cell division does cease at 2.5 - 3.0 ATM.

Sorry about the misinformation. I tried to cancel the previous post but
missed it by 30 mins.

Andy.

PS. As suitable chastisement I shall go out and drink 3 glasses Fosters!


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Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 03:46:29 +0500
From: "Keith Royster" <keith at ays.net>
Subject: Re: RIMS

Eamonn McKernan <eamonn at atmosp.physics.utoronto.ca> laments about
his RIMS always sticking. 

> I plan on eventually drilling some copper tubing for a return
> manifold, but I have bigger problems with the recirculation.

My personal opinion is that drilled copper manifolds for RIMS 
returned wort might have a tendency to get clogged with husks, etc. 
You might want to consider other designs that will allow any grains 
that make it into your plumbing to get pumped through to the top of 
your grain bed without clogging your manifold.  My design for the 
return wort distribution manifold is based on a similar design by 
Dion Hollenbeck and is made solely out of 1/2" copper pipe with open 
ends that allows for grain particles to easily pass through. I have a 
photo of my manifold located at the address below for my RIMS system.

> The false bottom is a 14" aluminum pizza pan (please no aluminum
> comments, that's been beaten to death...) with SS mesh over top it
> (20 gauge I think). I have not calculated the > open area, but
> it's gotta be more than the easymasher.

If you are referring to a solid pizza pan with holes drilled in it, 
then you might be a little low on percent open area depending on how 
many holes are drilled.  However, if you are referring to the pizza 
pans made of rigid aluminum meshed screen, then you should have more 
than enough percent open area.  The latter is how my false bottom is 
designed.  Again, photo at the web site...

> When mashing 10 - 20 lbs of grain, I underlet with hot water, mix
> in grains and water, let settle 10 - 15 min (usually at 50 C),
> then *slowly* start pumping. Stuck recirculations all the time.

The *only* time I ever had a stuck mash in my RIMS was when I did a 
low temp rest WITHOUT recirculating.  The finely ground particles of 
grain apparently settled out of the grain bed, through the false 
bottom, and stuck to the bottom of my keg where they gelatinized into 
a plaster-of-paris type of goo that complete covered the bottom of my 
keg and plugged the outlet hole at the bottom.  Perhaps something 
similar is happening here to you.  I would suggest starting your 
recirculation immediately after dough-in to prevent them from 
settling and see if this eliminates your problem. 

Keith Royster - Mooresville, North Carolina
"An Engineer is someone who measures it with a micrometer,
marks it with a piece of chalk, and cuts it with an ax!"

mailto:keith at ays.net
http://www.ays.net - at your.service web design & hosting
http://www.ays.net/brewmasters -Carolina BrewMasters club page 
http://www.ays.net/RIMS -My RIMS (rated COOL! by the Brewery)

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Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:38:32 +0200
From: "Terry Tegner" <tegbrew at aztek.co.za>
Subject: Fluoride water

Hi all, we have a government that feels everybody needs more Fluoride in
their system and I would like to know from the experts out there, how this
will effect our beer production. Will an activated carbon filter do the job
or do we not have to worry. As a sideline, we cannot by non-iodised salt
anymore either. Seems our minister of health has this thing for Halogens.
Regards
Terence Tegner




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Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:01:36 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: RE:  RIMS sticking / Full mash decoction

     Hi all,
     
     Eamonn tells us about his RIMS problems.  It seems that his mash 
     becomes stuck.  I had this same problem when attempting RIMS Weizens 
     and other decocted brews (yeah, I know, why did I even try RIMS for 
     decoctions...).  The solution was to install a lauter grant.
     
     The lauter grant was a plastic bucket with a spigot (my bottling 
     bucket, actually).  A hose went from the mash/lauter tun outlet to the 
     lauter grant, and the lauter grant was connected to the RIMS pump via 
     the spigot.
     
     I would let the grant fill, then turn on the pump, emptying the grant, 
     then turn off the pump and refill the grant, etc.  For a while I tried 
     to match the outflow from the grant with the inflow, but this proved 
     to be ridiculous.
     
     This arrangement protects the grain bed from compacting because the 
     pump is never pulling on it directly.  Gravity is somewhat more 
     forgiving!
     
     For what it's worth, I have given up on RIMS.  I made several good 
     batches of beer with it, but the process was much more of a nuisance 
     (for me) than my previous system.  I suspect my love of decoction 
     mashing has something to do with this.
     ----------------------
     Speaking of decocting, Matt asks what may be bad about boiling the 
     entire mash.  Aside from making an overly malty, caramelly Wit beer, 
     you may have a bit of starch in the beer.  Of course, you'll never 
     notice a starch haze in a Wit, and if you drink it quickly and have 
     careful sanitation, you could avoid the effects of infection.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:53:23 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Open fermentation

In HBD #2452 (July 01, 1997), Red Wheeler <fwheeler at mciunix.mciu.k12.pa.us>
wrote:

>I read somewhere how homebrewers in England use open fermentation. Does open
>fermentation add to the authenticity of an E.S.B.? Can anyone give me some
>tips or experiences in using open fermentation? I have recently brewed my
>first all grain batch using converted 1/2 barrel kegs and I've been thinking
>of using a fourth keg as a primary for open fermentation.

First, you don't need a fourth keg unless you're going to brew again before
the first batch is out of the primary.  I just use my sparge water vessel.
Works fine.  Has a tap for racking already in it.

I really like open fermentation (with a lid on it for sanitation without
changing the "openness").  Top cropping yeasts can be skimmed, as well as
the first scum.  I began open ferments many years ago in plastic
(Rubbermaid Brute container), then changed to glass carboys with blowoff
about 16 or 17 years ago.  It made a huge difference in quality, but I
think it was because the plastic was hard to clean, not because a clossed
ferment was superior to open.  I changed back ot open ferments in the
sparge vessel about two years ago.

You might also want to consider "dropping" your beer from the primary to a
second primary at high kraeusen, with or without aeration, for your ESB.
Some yeasts actually need the aeration (Ringwood comes to mind, I have
heard that 1968 does too), and many give fuller flavors.  Often diacetyl is
increased, which can be good or bad.  I dropped a pale ale this spring
using a Scottish yeast that ended up with too much - tasted like a
butterscotch sundae.

I miss watching the swirling ferment through the glass, but like the
opportunity to skim and top crop.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Tue, 1 Jul 97 11:13:22 EDT
From: awest at webster.m-w.com (Amy West)
Subject: commercial mead?

Is there any commerical or semi-commercial mead available?
I'm brewing some for a friend's wedding, but I want a backup.

- ---Amy West
awest at webster.m-w.com


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Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 10:02:54 -0600
From: Gary Knull <gknull at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Subject: Wort canning (Now that botulism is dead)

Thanks to Steve Claussen for his BT/Dave Miller post. Hopefully, the dreaded
botulism thread has been put to rest for good (except, inevitably, in the
minds of the terminally paranoid);>)

Perhaps now I can safely share my EASY CANNING METHOD which may have been
viewed as heresy before. I used to pressure cook wort but had always wished
for a short-cut. Then recently, I moved up to two and three quart starters
and needed an easy way to can these larger volumes of wort. So I started
canning in gallon-sized glass jugs right from the top of the kettle. (If
this stuff is not sterilized of even the most rabid botulism cell after an
hour plus of rolling boil, we haven't got a prayer.) Of course, the brew
length has to be adjusted to allow for the volume I intent to can. Within
five minutes after the flame is turned off under the kettle, the hop cones
and flakes of hot break begin to precipitate, leaving clear hot wort on top.
I syphon the hot wort into the waiting jugs which I have sanitized and
pre-heated with hot water so they don't shatter from the thermal shock. I
cap them immediately with sanitized screw caps and let them cool over the
next several hours. The one inch of head space that I leave in the neck of
the jug increases to about three inches as the liquid cools, and cold break
develops on the bottom. 

I have kept wort prepared this way for several months and then used it for
starters without problems of any sort. Should you choose to use this method
you'll need thick- walled tubing. I use half-inch ID Tygon with one-eighth
inch wall thickness; anything too thin-walled will collapse from the heat of
the wort, especially where the tubing comes over the edge of the kettle. I
suppose you could dip it out and use a funnel in the jug but HSA could
become a problem that way. It's a good idea to wear gloves (no bare feet!),
and be careful how you start the syphon. Try it - you'll like it!

Gary Knull
Edmonton, Alberta


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Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 10:02:57 -0600
From: Gary Knull <gknull at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Subject: Affordable Conical Fermenter

Jim Grubbs wrote in #2447:

>My Question:  Has anyone had experience with the Affordable Conical
Fermenter, and if so do you have any advice on how to get the best
results, especially with regard to trub removal.

My response here is not so much an answer to Jim's question as it is an
equipment review for the benefit of the others who asked about these
fermenters a couple of months back. I ordered four of these Affordable
Conical Fermenters a couple months ago. I ordered just the tanks, without
the stands or valves since I could make/get these locally for much less $$.

My reason for making my own stands was that I wanted to use these fermenters
in my chest freezer style lager cooler and so needed a much shorter stand
(12") than that offered with the fermenter. I also installed a 90 degree
elbow at the bottom of each tank and a valve horizontally after that to
reduce overall height. 
A word of caution: I would not attempt to make your own stands unless you
have access to ten inch PVC pipe, a cutoff saw that will handle ten inch
pipe, a machine lathe to machine the rings into a thing of beauty, besides
the square tubing for the legs, preferably fitted with end caps. It may be
possible to make a stand for these tanks other than with the rings as
depicted in the ads but it won't be easy Those tanks weigh 50 pounds and are
top-heavy when filled; the rings are probably the best way to support, and
carry, them. If you have access to all that stuff, go for it; I made four
short and one tall stand, all for less than the advertised price of $22.00
per stand.

My main complaint about these fermenters is that, while the tank itself is
good food grade plastic, the lids (while claimed to be food grade) are made
of soft vinyl that has a strong vinyl odor which seems to survive any
cleaning or sanitizing procedure. I lined two lids with aluminum foil and
used the other two as-is; time will tell if the vinyl smell gets into the
beer from the unlined lids. Those batches are presently in the secondary
ferment. The fermenters come with large elastic bands to place around the
lids to insure that they seal, a little bit hokey IMO. I'd like to see a
screw-on lid with a gasket or a push-on lid with an O-ring seal. The soft
lid is to allow escape of excess pressure but I suspect that the
bung-mounted air lock could serve this purpose, albeit at a higher pressure.

Quite unlike Jim, I found the trub removal to be the most attractive feature
of these tanks. I mash all-grain worts, boil only whole hops and let the
trub settle out overnight before removing it. Only then do I oxygenate the
wort and pitch the yeast. The trub level is easily visible through the
translucent tank and by cracking the ball valve open a bit the concentrated
trub cake can be removed to the last molecule almost. The trub slides down
the 60 degree cone without sticking. I have always found the cold break to
be very easily disturbed when racking and these tanks make trub removal a
joy and a cinch . I have, on previous occasions, pitched the yeast right
after chilling and oxygenating and have racked off of the trub the next day.
The trub was still easily disturbed, so I think , Jim, that your stuck trub
must be due either to hop pellet carryover or, less likely, to your use of
Irish moss. I didn't think Irish moss was necessary in extract brews; maybe
someone else can be of help here and knows from experience if it could gum
up the works. I use three quarters of a teaspoon of Irish moss in my all
grain boils and it never gums up anything; which leads us back to the hop
pellets. Try a batch with whole hops; then you'll know.

"Yeast harvesting - easy re-pitching" is one of the features touted for
these fermenters. Here is where I experienced the problem that Jim
described. The weight of the beer above punched a plug out of the center of
the yeast cake but I would have had to drain half the tank to wash the rest
of it out. But then, maybe that is to be expected; all of the yeasts that I
use display a rather sticky characteristic. It takes quite a bit of
agitation to loosen all the yeast on the bottom of the yeast starter jug.
But as a consequence, I had to resort to syphoning the beer out of the top
of the conical fermenter into a lagering keg to avoid washing the yeast cake
out with the beer through the bottom valve. Can someone suggest a non-sticky
lager yeast?

Overall, I like the Affordable Conical Fermenter. The plastic seems to be
more scratch- resistant and easier to clean than the white grape juice pails
that I had been using. They are safer than glass carboys but harder to
handle when full unless moved with the stand. But, for me, the ease of trub
removal alone makes these fermenters worth using.

Hope this helps anyone contemplating buying one. 

Gary Knull 
Edmonton, Alberta


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Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:08:54 -0400
From: "David R. Lubar" <DLubar at compuserve.com>
Subject: new water supply

My town is switching water suppliers.  I currently mash and sparge withou=
t
treating the water.  According to the analysis the new company sent, the =
pH
is about the same, the alkalinity is 30 mg/L versus 8.0-12.0 in the old
water, and the total hardness is 54 mg/L as opposed to 13.0-25.0 (the
analysis from the old supplier gave all information as a range, while the=

new supplier just gave me an average.)  Beyond the fact that the harness
has moved out of the soft range, I have no idea what to make of these
figures.  Any feedback, suggestions, or advice would be appreciated. =

Thanks.

David Lubar (a former customer of the Lower Nazareth Water Authority)


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Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 11:35:18
From: Jay Reeves <yaj at ro.com>
Subject: Re: hop poles

Mark asked about hop poles:

>how do you stick a twelve (or fifteen) -foot hop pole in the ground
without it
>falling over?  do you stand on a 10 foot ladder with a 16 pound sledgehammer
>and flail away (and break your neck)?  
>
>does the twine strung between poles in the big hop gardens act as some
sort of
>support to keep them from falling over?  it seems to me that a solitary pole
>would have to be driven pretty deep in the ground to keep from falling over
>under the weight of the vine, particularly on windy days.
>
>should concrete be poured?  does this require a backhoe?

The poles are not typically stuck in the ground to hold them in place.
The top of the end poles of a row are usually guy-wired off to the
ground with 2 steel cables at ~90 degrees to each other (as viewed
straight down from above).  Then, on the opposite side of the pole,
from the guywire connections, another steel cable runs the length
of the row to other poles (support poles), on to the other end pole
of the row which is also guy-wired to the ground with 2 steel cables.
The climbing twine is then looped over the top cable, and anchored
to the ground.  It's much like the way power lines are set up, except
the pole is not buried - it's free-standing.

My turn:  Most print I've seen recommends lagering beer at 33F,
34F, or somewhere there abouts.  Does lagering at 30-32F hurt anything?
At what point do ice crystals form in the beer (eisbock) - is it 32F?
How about reduction of esters - is that or any other desired lagering
effects affected by colder lagering temps?

			-Jay Reeves
			Huntsville, Alabama
                                
NOTE: Any replies need to manually change
the "yaj" in the "reply to" field to "jay"
 - sorry, but blame the spamers for that!

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Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 11:20:29 -0800
From: "Michael R. Frank" <mfrank at ag.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Black Beers

<lurkmode disabled>

HBDers:

After a ten-year hiatus, I've recently begun homebrewing again, and I am
very pleasantly surprised at the changes in technology and methodology
which have occurred in the last decade.(Pitching a whole QUART of yeast
starter instead of that old dry packet? Wow! As a biologist I am
embarrased I didn't think of that. Closest was pitching two or three dry
packets) In the last few months of research I've found HBD to be an
invaluable resource, so I just wanted to thank everyone involved, both
Pat and Karl, and everyone  who takes the time to share their expertise,
comments, humor or criticisms.

Now a few questions: 

1) Just what is a black beer anyway? I've been seeing and tasting an
increasing number of these lately, and whatever they are, I generally
like them. But when I look somewhere like the AHA style guidelines (or
HBD archives, Cat's Meow, etc) there is little or no information. There
are obviously differences  between something like Xingu and Portland's
Haystack Black, but are these just american (or new-world) porters? 

Anyone have any recipies?

2) What is the difference between the Cat's Meow and Gambrinus' Mug
recipie collections at The Brewery website (http://alpha.rollanet.org/)?
Do any of you find one set or the other more reliable? (some of the
directions are a bit weird at times). Is either set proctored in some
way, or are they just historical artifacts?

Thanks,

Michael Frank
Rillito Creek Brew and Yacht Club
Senita Gulch Brewing
Tucson, AZ -- Where you need a fridge for ALE fermentation!

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Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 15:16:50
From: Chris Webster <Chris_Webster at meridianvat.com>
Subject: Zymurgy Phone #

Hey folks.

I want to order a back issue of Zymurgy - is this possible over the phone?
Does anyone have a phone number/web address for such nonsense?  Thanks.

Chris W
chris_webster at meridianvat.com

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Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:58:12 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Whitbread Dried Yeast,Dust Explosions, Sticking fermentations

Brewsters:

Braam Greyling asks for information on dried Whitbread Yeast for his
brew-pub owner friend in South Africa.  His friend wishes to purchase dri=
ed
yeast in bulk..   I have a packet left over from my brewing class that sa=
ys
Yeast Lab (TM) Whitbread Yeast. and on the back says Produced for G. W.
Kent, Inc., Ann Arbor Michigan.  Those HBDers more familiar with the
business supply side may wish to comment on addresses and telephone numbe=
rs
of the actual manufacturer.
- --------------------------------------------
I am less sanguine than C. D. Pritchard about the danger of dust
explosions, having seen the results of one. I also recall the experiment =
in
my youth in which a funnel which contained flour was attached to a tube a=
t
its stem.  The funnel with flour was placed in a close fitting lidded can=

with a hole in the bottom for the hose and it had a lighted candle inside=
=2E
A soft blow on the hose dispersed the flour in the can and which was
ignited explosively by the candle. Finely divided organics in air can for=
m
an explosive mixture.

It is a real danger, but proper grounding and taping plastic covers to
reduce the dust migration is a sound policy, which I use.  Also, from the=

brewing standpoint  mill dust is a carrier of lactobacillus and other
degenerative micro-biologics, so it is best to mill away from the brewing=

area and in a well ventilated area like your garage or other non-brewing
area.
- ------------------------------------------------ =

As far As I can see Andy Walsh and I agree on the cause of non-biological=

"sticking" of a fermentation being caused by flocculation of the yeast
removing the yeast from the field of play, even though biologically they
could still process sugars into alcohol. Agitation by either CO2 or
stirring re-establishes fermentation as long as the agitation continues a=
nd
brings sweet wort into contact with the yeast. =


As a model, I suggest a yeast dispersion be treated as a suspension, rath=
er
than a colloid, since it does settle out eventually in most cases ( of
course, so do some colloids but much more slowly at 1 gravity).  Many of
the same rules to dispersion or settling apply as in colloids.

One of the most interesting things to think about is the shape of the yea=
st
body.  According to a book I have ( Chemistry and Physics of Interfaces,
pub American Chemical Society) 1 micron spheres, 4 micron disks and 7
micron cylinders should all behave the same colloidally, based on the
surface area per particle size..  Any information on the change of yeast
cell shapes during fermentation as often happens when the environment
changes?  Does this explain flocculation phenomena? =


The presence of calcium as a factor in flocculation should not surprise
anyone who has taken a bath in hard water and observed the bathtub ring
formed from calcium salts of the stearic and other fatty acids in the soa=
p.
Carboxylic acids are rendered insoluble by calcium ions and therefore los=
e
their ability to act as a dispersant for the yeast cells - which I presum=
e
they do by being adsorbed on the cell surface.  The other possibility is =
a
neutralization of a local charge which would keep yeast cells apart by th=
e
calcium forming insoluble complexes with the surface charges.  It would b=
e
interesting to hear comments on the effect of calcium ion on the thicknes=
s
and formation of the yeast pad on an ale fermentation.  Anyone?
Zeta potential has been suggested as a measure of flocculation potential
for yeasts and I agree it may be an indication - in the absence of physic=
al
effects to break up dispersions.  Zeta potential is a theoretical concept=

in which the dispersed particle is imagined to have a surface charge
surrounded by a solvent sheath  and  is used to attempt to explain the
so-called electro-kinetic effects of particles in a voltage  potential
field.  One example of such an effect is to simply measure the migration =
in
the direction of an impressed electric field of a dispersed particle or
macromolecular colloid.  It does tell something about the surface charge =
of
a particle, after taking into account things like dispersing medium
viscosity and the particle size among many others, like temperature. I ha=
ve
done such studies on silica and various pigment particles, but never on
yeasts.  =


In the clarification of  municipal water supplies, aluminum sulfate (alum=
)
is useful because it significantly lowers the zeta potential of the
dispersed particles and brings about flocculation.  I presume high calciu=
m
ion content has a similar effect.

A second issue which Andy brings up is certain yeasts' inability to proce=
ss
malto-trioses which I would not call "sticking" since agitation or
temperature change will not change the amount of attenuation.  I believe
(and I think Andy does) this explains why some beers are *predictably*
sweeter than others and why S. Uvarum
 ( used to be called S. Cerevisiae sub. Carlsbergensis a lager yeast)
produces a dry beer, because it can process malto-trioses, whereas ale
yeasts in general cannot and for sure cannot do it at lagering
temperatures.


- ----------------------------------------------------


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 07:31:21 +1000
From: "Mark Ellis" <mellis at gribbles.com.au>
Subject: Two Dogs Lemon Brew

Hi All,

I recently saw on the list a few days ago, a throw together recipe for a
brewed lemon drink. Two Dogs is made under license here (Oz) not 10 minutes
from where I work. They politely refused my queries of its makeup. Anyway,
if anyone out there has any input to give me as well as the list it would
be great!

Mark Ellis
Gribbles Pathology Pty Ltd
mellis at gribbles.com.au

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Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:43:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: flocculation/CO2 leaks/YE vs. YN/breather/Marga/pLambic

Dave writes:
>This cause is fully borne out by historical fact and observation.  The
>problem with trubless
> ferments can easily be a result of insufficient agitation of the wort by=
>escaping CO2 from  a
> smooth sided vessel with no nucleation sites normally provided by the
>trub.  This is an
> explanation of a  well known observation that different vessels produce
>different attentuations,
> especially with ale yeasts because of this flocculation tendency. The
>taller vessels provide
> a more complete attentuation, since the flocced yeast take longer to fal=
>l
>to the bottom and still
> convert the sugars as they fall.

Well, no, actually... DeClerck's work indicated that *tall/narrow* vessels,
not short/squat ones, resulted in incomplete attenuation with some yeasts.
This is opposite of what you are suggesting.

>This indicates that the problem is not
>CO2 poisoning, since the
> yeast are still converting sugars, rather one of prematurely removing th=
>e
>"catalyst" from the
> reaction by flocculation and preventing further conversion of the raw
>materials.  Powdery yeasts (i.e. non-flocculating yeasts) are often added=
>to yeast blends to keep the fermentation going to the end. Sometimes
>"dropping " is resorted to as a means of agitating the wort and in other
>agitation paddles
> are used to ensure a uniform fermentation and complete attenuation.

I know of only one yeast blend (the old three-strain Whitbread yeast,
which has been since retired in favour of a single-strain yeast) to be
commercially used widely.  I agree that premature flocculation can be
a cause for high FGs and that agitation, dropping, and mechanical
sprayers (such as those used at Tadcaster) are three ways to combat
this problem, but I don't think that every case in which CO2 toxicity
*may* be the cause of high FG can be blamed on flocculation.

***
Dave again:
>Hardpipe writes that he has had several tanks of CO2 leak away into the
>atmosphere without passing through his beer first.  I had this problem an=
>d
>it turned out the hard fiber washer (you do have one?) that forms the
>connection between the tank and the regulator was not compressed enough. =

Are you reusing those fiber washers?  They are not reusable (reliably).
I used to only use fiber washers.  Then, I switched to teflon.  I had
leaks with the teflon!  Now, I've switched back to the fiber, use a new
one every time I remove the regulator (very infrequently) and don't have
a leakage problem.

***
John writes:
>This morning, I realized I had mistakenly
>added yeast energizer [Yeastex (?), it is a coarse, yellow powder] instead
>of nutrient.  The starter did not look or smell like it had much activity.
> Does anybody have any knowledge on the effects of yeast energizer in a
>starter?  Will the starter be adversely affected or will it turn out fine?

It depends on what the "yeast nutrient" and "yeast energizer" are.  Most
stores call diammonium phosphate (DAP) "yeast nutrient" whereas "yeast
energizer" is a blend of DAP, yeast hulls, vitamins, etc.  You can tell by
looking at it.  DAP is a coarse white powder or tiny white pellets.  The
blend is a mixture of various yellow and white crystals.  Yeast benefit
quite a bit more from the blend than from straight DAP.  I use a pinch of
Fermax(TM) in my starters.  It is a blend.

***
Luke writes:
>For a small capital investment and an hour or so of playing "plumber"; 
>it should be possible to fit a secondary (low-pressure) regulator to 
>your CO2 delivery line so that it delivers CO2 direct to your "corny 
>keg" at atmospheric pressure (or only slightly higher than 
>atmospheric).  Not enough pressure to force beer through your beer 
>engine or force-carbonate your beer, but enough that you can draw off a 
>beer and have the "airspace" filled immediately with CO2 rather than 
>air (I guess that makes it CO2space).

Sorry... won't work.  In fact, you'll recall that in my instructions,
I said to vent the keg before attaching the engine.  This is because
the pressure that builds up in the keg is enough to push beer out of
the engine even when you are not pumping!  This may not be enough
of a problem when the casks are in the cellar or when proper "breathers"
are used (devices that are made specifically for this task... I've
heard they are very expensive, however), but in my setup, if I accidentally
forget to vent the cask before connecting the handpump, I get unexpected
beer delivery through the engine.  Even if you vent and then reseal, the
pressure will eventually build up in the headspace and begin to push
the beer out through the engine.  These things are really meant to pull
beer from an unpressurised vessel.

***
Dave writes:
>Eric Fouch comments on the motorization of the Marga Mill from Italy.  I
>also have one of these mills which I motorized with my power drill after
>cutting and filing down a bolt into a "T" shape to fit into the crank slo=
>t.

<snip>

I bought one of those Marga Mulina mills.  I tried it for milling grain
and was very disappointed in the results.  The rollers on mine have
diagonal cuts which face in opposite directions.  As a result, when they
pull grain through, each grain of malt *twists* and splinters a little
(not terribly, but far more than with my JSP MaltMill).  Jay Hersh has
one of these Marga mills and he seems to have solved (minimized?) this
problem by cutting longitudinal grooves into the rollers so the grain
is pulled *straight* through.  I chose to not modify mine and use it
for milling grains for breads and buy a proper malt mill.

***
Sam writes:
>I've been wanting to make a plambic for a long time and just lately I've 
>really started reading up on the procedures and the different yeasts and 
>bacteria needed.  My question is what's the best way to secure all the 
>different microorganism that I need?  I was thinking that maybe, just 
>maybe, I could just pour a few bottles of a real geueze in to my wort.  
>Would that work?  I could use any advise that you guys (and gals) could 
>give me (including extract recipies).  

Most of what's left alive in bottles of gueuze (French spelling) or geuze
(Flemish spelling) is Brettanomyces and possibly some Pediococcus.  You
will need a Saccharomyces yeast in addition to those and also you want to
make sure that indeed the Pedio is still alive.  You can make up a starter
and pour the gueuze/geuze dregs in there.  If the starter gets significantly
sour over the course of a few weeks (note that Brett is an acid-producer
too), you can assume that there's live Pedio in there.  Lactos, from my
understanding, are very easy to kill and are unlikely to survive the
time in the bottle.  As for what beers to use for the dregs, all the
standard Boon products are said to be filtered now, but the Mariage Parfait
are not.  None of the Cantillon beers are filtered nor is the Cuvee Renee
from Lindeman's.  I'm pretty sure that the Hanssens we've recently gotten
in the states is unfiltered.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


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---