---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Gas Flow Characteristics (Bob.Sutton)
  Re: A/B Born On (Joe Rolfe)
  Carbonation Problems!!! (Tim Steffens)
  Re:Buying LME from Williams Brewing? (SANDY COCKERHAM)
  re: Budweiser's born-on bull ("Randy J. Lee")
  Cherry juice in beer (nkanous)
  IMKR? (Bob.Sutton)
  Extract IPA ideas (Matthew Arnold)
  Wilted, Flaked barley, ("David R. Burley")
  Blue Moon: Coors responds (Graham Barron)
  100 IBU IPA's (Matt Gadow)
  Fermentors for 10+ gallon batches (Barry Browne)
  Malta as a Yeast Starter (Katy or Delano DuGarm)
  Flying Brews ("Michael R. Frank")
  Killing Lactic bad guys (Randy Ricchi)
  RE: Budweiser's born-on bull ("Mike Blakey")
  Experiments with Sorghum Molasses (Kit Lemmonds)
  Old Ale Recipe Question (Charles Burns)
  re:keg baggage (Mench5)
  jockey box / leaking CO2 tank ("Keith Royster")
  apple juice starters//recent topics (smurman)
  Carbonation in small bottles (al_ru)
  Roasted barley. How?? (Alessandro Calamida)
  PBS Hopback ("Alan McKay")
  Re: Extraction Efficiencies (Fredrik Staahl)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 8:18:00 -0400
From: Bob.Sutton at fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re: Gas Flow Characteristics

  efouch at steelcase.com mused:
  
  
  >>>Should the regulator be between the flow 
  meter and the tank, or between the flow meter 
  and the burner (providing back pressure)?<<<
  
  It really depends on what you're trying to 
  control - gas flow or burner pressure. If you 
  want consistent flow control the regulator 
  should be installed upstream of the flowmeter. 
  This ensures the flowmeter sees a constant 
  pressure, not subject to the thermally induced 
  pressure fluctuations in your tank which could 
  affect the accuracy of your meter reading 
  (unless you're using a ma$$ flowmeter). You 
  could add a pressure gauge at the burner inlet 
  and tweak the regulator during operation to 
  deliver 10 psig.
  
  If you want consistent pressure at your burner, 
  the regulator should be located downstream from 
  the flowmeter, 
  
  >>>Will a 20 foot line behave the same (in terms 
  of flame size and BTU output) as a 50 foot line 
  for the same regulator/flow meter 
  configuration?<<<
  
  Not quite. A longer line to the burner will 
  result in less gas flow if all else is unchanged 
  (meaning that you added an additional 30 foot of 
  line to the 20 foot setup, without adjusting the 
  pressure regulator or the flow valve). When the 
  gas line length is increased, the pressure/flow 
  into the burner will be less. You could 
  compensate for this by increasing the regulator 
  pressure setting (up to a point, since your 
  limited to the tank pressure), or opening your 
  flow valve.
  
  Clear? Oh well :(
  
  Disclaimer: In trying to imagine your setup, 
  I've probably made some rash assumptions which 
  necessarily discount the validity of these 
  comments. I'd be disappointed if someone didn't 
  make a wholesale stab at a counter-argument.
  
  
  Bob
  Fruit Fly Brewhaus
  Yesterdays' Technology Today
  

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:22:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Subject: Re: A/B Born On

hey now;) lets not bash bud, if you know what beer making is
about then these guys are the king...granted the marketing
end is not on par with the production.....now i will get
tons of email to the other end of this scale ....

seeing a born on (which is the date of packaging not brewing)
on the day it was born is not out of the question.  i cant vouch
for the guy setting up the date for the run but it is possible.
erom what i have heard - the older/smaller bud plants around 
the country are brewing. some spot shortages are occuring. plus 
seeing that the bud distributors have "99.99% share of mind" 
ok and widmer get the rest...)  fast turns out of the warehouse 
are happening locally (Northeast of boston). seems the thirty packs 
are flying...drink on the same day as packaged - how much fresher 
can it be - if it true..

oh and fermentation is a day - yeah it is possible but the equipment is 
pretty expensive for a homebrewer budget.


so flame away for my sticking up for bud....

joe
jrolfe at mc.com




>from: Steve Jackson <stevejackson at rocketmail.com>
>subject: Budweiser's born-on bull
>
{SNIP} 
>Notwithstanding the fact that I've never seen a distributor move beer
>that quickly, something seems more than a little fishy about Bud's
>"born on" dates here. Even for as something as thin as Bud produced by
>heavily industrial mechanisms, there's no way in hell that a
>fermentation could be completed in a day. And I would guess Bud's
>"exclusive beechwood aging" takes a bit longer than a few hours as
>well.
>




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:52:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Tim Steffens <tsteffen at indyvax.iupui.edu>
Subject: Carbonation Problems!!!

Hi gang,

I've been listening for some time known and what a great format. Kudos to
list  master(s).

I've been having a problem with carbonation. I've started brewing again
after 6 years and my last 2 batches have had little to NO carbonation.

The first batch was a basic American Wheat all extract brew. 2 stage
fermenter. When I racked it to the 2nd fermenter the bubbles in the air
lock were about 6 minutes apart. I think I left it go to long? When I
racked it to the bottling bucket I added the sugar directly to the brew and
stirred it very gently as not to add any air. In the end some were more
carbonated than others but none were carbonated like they should be.

The second batch I just opened yesterday and NONE of it carbonated this
time. This was a Brown Ale part grain and extract. I kept the yeast in the
starter to long and killed it. Put I rehydrated some more and it was
churning like mad with in 24 hours. And again I think I waited to long to
rack it to the second fermenter. The bubbles were 6-8 minutes apart. This
time I made a sugar starter, boiled some water, let it cool, and pitched
the sugar to that. Added the started to the bottling bucket and racked the
brew. Waited 2 weeks and NO carbonation.

What am I doing wrong? Am I waiting to long to rack it to the 2nd fermenter
or is it something when I bottle it?

HELP!!!

Tim Steffens, CRA
Indiana University Medical Center
tsteffen at indyvax.iupui.edu




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:02:26 +0000 (GMT)
From: SANDY COCKERHAM <COCKERHAM_SANDRA_L at LILLY.COM>
Subject: Re:Buying LME from Williams Brewing?

I have purchased these bags of LME from Williams in the past with some
success (and some hideous failures.) I am recalling a great SNPA clone...
Their pale LME is Alexander's (I think.) However, I found another
mail order that I like better for this. Check out HopTech (I think
the website is http://www.hoptech.com) as they sell Alexander's LME
in light, amber, dark, and wheat at a pretty good price. Last I ordered
was 1.79/lb. and it comes in half pound increments.  If you order
at least 7 lb. you don't have to pay for the nice little plastic bucket
that they come in. The buckets are handy for storing crystal malt and
such later on. If your order totals 40.00 or more there is no shipping
added. I was always frustrated by the shipping prices from Williams, as
Indiana is a long way from their location in California!
These two suppliers are located pretty close to each other.

Hope this helps,
Sandy Cockerham
(no affiliation, blah, blah, blah)


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:11:30 -0500
From: "Randy J. Lee"<rjlee at imation.com>
Subject: re: Budweiser's born-on bull





First off, the Born on dating is just that; when the thing was packaged. I
use "conceived on dating"; when the thing was brewed.

Still, Distributors have *some* stock of beer so incoming beer would be
delayed getting to the streets unless the distributor screwed up and didn't
rotate stock.

Also, distributors generally load trucks during the night so the drivers
can jump in and go in the morning (they have a long day as it is without
having to wait for a truck to load up). This date thing you mention is
*very* interesting indeed.

Randy Lee
Viking Brewing Company
Dallas, WI.



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:22:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: nkanous at tir.com (nkanous)
Subject: Cherry juice in beer

Greetings,
Stopped at the local orchard yesterday and found some 1/2 gal
and gallon bottles of "cherry juice".  The label said that it
is made entirely from the juice of tart cherries.  Anybody
ever used juices of this sort in brewing fruit beers?  Any
suggestions for quantities?  This probably has been sweetened
before its pateurization.  It would probably be easiest to add
to the secondary to allow any fermentation to take place.  Any
simple ways to check fermentability without resorting to clinitest
sticks or anything?  I suppose I could ferment just enough to fill
my hydrometer, eh?  Thanks.

Nathan in Frankenmuth, MI 



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:13:00 -0400
From: Bob.Sutton at fluordaniel.com
Subject: IMKR?

  Having survived a new level of physical pain 
  brought on by kidney stones (some say it exceeds 
  birth - I don't plan to go that route), I found 
  some disturbing medical advice straight from the 
  National Institute of Health (NIH).
  
  When the urologist stopped by to check on my 
  progress, he stated that I should increase my 
  fluid intake to help flush these pesky buggers 
  from my system. Gee - I thought - a nobrainer - 
  until he passed on the NIH recommendations to 
  reduce BEER intake if your predisposed to kidney 
  stones (whatever that means).
  
  Well I can easily deal with the reduction of 
  asparagus, collards and rhubarb in my diet...
  but BEER?
  
  It seems to me the NIH has taken a wrong turn 
  somewhere. For you chemists out there, kidney 
  stones are typically formed from calcium 
  oxalate. Since I haven't brewed with oxalic acid 
  - and my calcium hardness is no worse that 
  drinking water in many parts of the world - I'm 
  puzzled by the reasons to reduce beer intake 
  maybe the NIH was thinking "Bud").
  
  Any idea why beer shows up as a for kidney stone 
  promoter? Maybe we need to have warning labels 
  on our brews.
  
  Should I stop drinking - Is My Kidney Ruined?
  
  
  Cheers!
  Bob
  Fruit Fly Brewhaus
  Yesterdays' Technology Today

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:13:48 GMT
From: mra at skyfry.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Extract IPA ideas

Greetings, oh mighty collective,

I'm considering brewing an extract-specialty grains IPA. My goal with
this beer is threefold: 1) Keep it simple: thus no partial mashing, 2)
Experiment with high-alpha hops, 3) Consider dry-hopping.

Here's the recipe idea:

Zoot's EPA, Mk II (Zoot is my dog. I call is an "E"PA because she
cries or "eeps" when she can't join in the brewing fun)

6.6# Northwestern Gold LME
1.5# Northwestern Gold DME
1#   40L Crystal
2 oz Galena pellets (12% AAU, 60 minutes)
     and
1 oz Cascade pellets (3.5% AAU, 10 minutes)
1 oz Cascade pellets (ditto, dry hopped in secondary)
     or
1 oz Willamette pellets (5.1% AAU, 10 minutes)
1 oz Willamette pellets (ditto, dry hopped in secondary
2 pkgs Danstar Nottingham or 1 starter of Wyeast #1028 London

SUDS figures this will come out to an original gravity of 1.065 and
85.4 IBUs using Tinseth's numbers figuring on a four-gallon boil. 85.4
might seem to be a little extreme, but my hop utilization hasn't been
everything I might like, plus I'll be using a hop bag and probably a
blow-off tube. Plus, if it is too bitter I'll just let it sit in the
bottle for a few months.

I chose Galena for bittering because it is supposed to be a more
neutral bittering hop. I will use either Cascade or Willamette,
depending on if I'm in a more American or English mood when I'm at the
brewshop. I will probably end up using the dry yeast just for the sake
of goal #1.

I've got two questions. 1) How does the recipe look, especially to you
hop-heads? 2) What's the best way (!) to dry hop? I thought about
putting the oz of pellets in the secondary and then racking the beer
on top of them. Will it be too difficult to keep the pellets in there
and not get them in the bottling-bucket come bottling time? Will one
oz of Cascades be too overpowering? How about the Willamette? (OK,
that's more than two questions. Mea culpa.)

Any thoughts, hints, anecdotes would be welcome. N.B., I do not have
access (other than by mail-order) to whole leaf hops.

Thanks,
  Matt

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:12:01 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Wilted, Flaked barley,

Brewsters:

Now Compuserve tells me my "=3D" signs problem =

( and I see other Compuserve subscribers with
 the same problem)  is because they upgraded
 to a Mime program which converts to Latin-1
 ( isn't that a dead language?)  and this HBD
 server can't  understand this Latin-1. Thanks a lot.
So I'll try to remember to shorten the lines to less the 60 Ch.
- ----------------------------------
Tom Herlache corrects this amateur botanist by
 correctly stating that Verticillium and Fusarium
 are in fact fungi diseases and not viral diseases.
  My Ortho Home Gardener's Problem Solver states
 also that there is no known chemical treatment
 (which I knew from an earlier life and why I thought
 it was a virus) and that it is a fungus and only the =

addition of fertilizer is recommended to make the
 plant stronger and withstand the attack. Soil
 fumigation is recommended. And the selection of resistant plants.      =


Thanks to Jay Reeves for commenting on the
 irregular water patten and not enough sun as
 being another potential cause for this yellowing
 of the lower leaves.  I fit his possibility also.
- --------------------------------------------- =

Doug Moyer asks about using flaked barley with
 extract batches.  If the extract has no diastatic
 power don't bother or your third suggestion is
 best.  Mash the Barley with some pale malt in
 a ratio of about 1:1.  I suggest that if a thicker head
 is desired that a single infusion mash at 155F =

is probably inadequate. Stop for 15 -30 minutes
 at 122F then heat up to 155F and finish the
 mashing for 30 minutes,  strain and drain and
 rinse and add the extract plus the necessary
 water, boil, add hops. etc. Use 1 quart of water
 per pound of grain - so 2 quarts for this mashing. =

 The soluble protein formed at 122F will
 provide the head you desire.. The 155F hold
 will provide you with fermentable sugars
 and some dextrins.  Holding at 158F instead
 of 155F will give you more dextrins.
- -----------------------------------------------
Ian Smith says:
>Also there has been talk of a "grassy"
 smell/taste associated with home grown
>hops on the HBD. Does anyone know how
 to avoid/eliminate this ? I plan on
>using a food dehydrator to dry my hops
 - how do I know when they are dry ? =


Grassy smelling hops ( if I am imagining it correctly)
 I'm guessing may be due to a "silage" smell and
 perhaps explains why the professionals treat their
 green hops with sulfur dioxide to prevent spoilage
 while drying.  Try getting a sulfur candle from your
 HB store or buying sulfur at the drugstore and  burning
 that so the vapor passes through the clusters before
 they are dried.    I have also smelled hops that are
 too dry when picked and they do have a sort of
 dried grassy smell.

To test for correct dryness, place a small
 cheesecloth bag containing a weighed amount =

of hops in the drier with the rest of the hops and
 weigh it every 12 hours or so.  When you get a =

fairly steady weight then the hops are as dry as
 they will get with your method. Hops will lose
about 80% of their picked weight.
- ------------------------------------------------
Rob Sprecher says:

>What's the best filter size to use for filtering beer.
>I've seen 0.5, 1, 5, 10, and 20 micron filters.
 Any recommendations?

First see the latest issue of Zymurgy  in which =

Ray Daniels compares various manufacturers
 of filters.  I thought his approach was fine, but
 there was a glaring error in his reporting. He did
 not report a taste comparison along with the
 clarity measurements. Filtration has the
 reputation of causing a degraded quality in the beer.

Biggest problem I see with filters in comparing
 pad filters and sieve filters is that pad filters
 are often active chemically ( in the old days
 Asbestos was added) and indiscriminately
 remove protein as well as particles.  Also
 some filters routinely use things like
 Diatomaceous Earth which can adsorb protein.
 =

 I believe this is the source of the idea that filtering =

can affect the organo-leptic properties of a filtered =

beverage negatively.  Ray should have compared =

both filtering ability and the taste to be sure you are
 not unselectively removing protein by adsorption =

on the pad material.  This sort of thing does not
 happen with the modern membrane filters.

I use the Filter Company's 5 micron filter cartridge
 to remove yeast and it does an excellent job at filtering
 5 gallons of yeasty, cloudy beer in about 3 or four minutes.
   I usually filter warm uncarbonated beer into a
 CO2 flushed Cornie ( see my description here
 a couple of weeks ago about filling a keg with water
 and then pushing it out with CO2).  The beer is
 sparkling clear while warm.  Chilling it will produce =

a chill haze.  =


I have a 0.5 micron filter which I have yet to use,
 but bought it to filter the cold beers to remove the
 chill haze after at least 3 days chilling.  Based on the
 report in Zymurgy this may take 15-20 minutes. A =

 Filter Company employee told me that even a
 0.2 micron filter ( for really *sparkling* beer) will not
 have a bad effect on the organoleptic properties,
 but that 0.1 microns has been reported to do so. =


I recommend that you get both the 5 micron
 (yeast removal) and the 0.2 or 0.5 micron
 (chill haze) membrane filter to produce haze free
 beer.  Doing two filtrations will make the smaller
 filter last longer and filter faster than trying to do
 the job with just the smaller filter.  Alternatively,
 use an inexpensive approximately 5 micron filter
 used for water filters ( check to make sure they
 have no clays or carbon black or  whatever in them
 - go for the wound filters) in line with the smaller
 micron filters to do it all at once =

- ----------------------------------------------
Joe Stone asks for opinions on a Hop Back. See
 my comments of last week.  I use a small filter
 made from a "Choreboy" copper or SS  metal
 turnings scrubber.  Works great and costs
 about 39 cents, leaves the hops in the kettle
 so there is no limitation on the volume like
 you describe for the commercial hop back.
 Also I doubt this Hop Back will do a good job
 at removing hot break if the hops are allowed
 to move.  I say spend that $84.61 on something
 else - like malt- and hop back from this offering.
- ------------------------------------------------
Eugene Sonn asks how to measure out his
 hop extract in pounds when he doesn't have a scale.

First idea is to make your own scale (balance).
 Use a flat board on a fulcrum ( a pencil taped on,
 for example)  on which you can place bowls at
 either end. Put a bowl with 16 ounces ( 2 cups)
 of water on one end and a similar weight bowl
 on the other.  Pour in warm hop extract into the
 bowl at the other end until the board balances.
  Measure the volume with a measuring cup.

Also you can try placing water in a deep kettle or
 waste basket deeper than the can of extract.
 Mark the level with a piece or tape or marker. =

Put the can of extract ( unopened, of course) in
 the water and remove the water back down to
 the mark.  The volume of the water you removed
 is the volume of the 15Kg can.

In the first case you have the volume of one pound
=2E In the second you have the volume per 15 kilos
 which you can convert to pounds by multiplying =

15 X 2.2 =3D 33 lbs and dividing by the volume of
 water to get the density in pounds per volume. =

- ----------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:27:07 -0500
From: Graham Barron <gbarron at cq.com>
Subject: Blue Moon: Coors responds

In what I consider a very much appreciated gesture and a commentary on
the relevance of our discussions on this digest, Coors Brewing Company
has responded directly to me regarding the recent thread on Blue Moon and
surrounding issues.  Per their request, I have posted the email I
received from Keith Villa, the brewer of the Blue Moon line of beers. 
Commentary, etc., is welcome.


>>>>

<excerpt>To:  Graham Barron (gbarron at cq.com)


     As the brewmaster who creates all of the Blue Moon brews, I

thought it was appropriate to respond to your comments recently

posted in the Homebrewer's Digest archives.

     First, some of my credentials.  I am a homebrewer (since 1983),

a professional brewer (since 1986), and a certified beer judge with

the BJCP.  I judge at numerous homebrew competitions (including the

national AHA competitions), and at the Great American Beer Festival

and our state fair microbrew competition.  I also lived in Belgium

for almost 4 years while earning my Ph.D. degree in brewing

biochemistry from the University of Brussels (Flemish campus). 

During my studies, I had the opportunity to visit and tour in-depth

many Belgian breweries including large, small, artisanal, lambic,

Trappist, etc.  I also had the opportunity to visit breweries in

England and Germany to round out my brewing education.

     Regarding beer quality and medals, I ensure that Blue Moon ales

are made from only the highest quality 2-row malt, hops and spices. 

The only adjunct we use is the real honey in Honey Blonde Ale.  In
addition, Blue Moon ales are all kosher.  We do not advertise it, but
they pass the strict standards of the Orthodox Union.  Blue Moon products
have won medals from the Colorado State fair, the Great American Beer
Festival

and the World Beer Championship.  Each of these competitions employs

the judging talent of professional brewers and beer writers.  These

competitions are judged blindly and I believe this is the fairest way

to award medals, no matter who wins.  As you know, Blue Moon is an

operating unit of Coors, and we do not hide this.  What this means is

that only the highest quality standards are used to make Blue Moon

products.   I create and oversee the brews to make sure only the best

ingredients are used.  The brewers who have won the most medals, overall,
at the Great American Beer Festival include Coors, Alaskan Brewing,
Anheuser-Busch and Boston Beer.   As you can see, both big and small
brewers can make award-winning products. 

And, please do not confuse beer styles.  What I mean is, do not put

down one style of beer as watery, while another might be praised for

being big and aromatic.  For example, Original Coors is an American

lager (read the AHA or GABF guidelines), and has a GABF gold medal to

prove that it is an excellent example of the style.  It certainly is

not a Bohemian or German pilsner.  Also, please remember that some

styles have fairly wide guidelines.  For example, many Americans will

say that Hoegaarden is the best example of a wit.  However, if you

went to Belgium and asked for the best wit, you would get many

different replies, ranging from examples with strong coriander aroma

to those with a bland nose.  Finally, as you claim to have a cynical

view of large brewers, you might be surprised to find out who really

owns Hoegaarden and Celis breweries.

As a fellow homebrewer,  I urge you to paste this letter in the 

Homebrewers Digest along with any additional comments.

Sincerely,

Keith Villa,  Ph.D.

Master Brewer, Blue Moon Brewing Company



</excerpt><<<<<<<<


I replied to Keith privately, but in summary I wrote:


1) I never intended to question the quality of ingredients of the Blue
Moon products (although I may have speculated that the beers were not
entirely malt, but I can't remember now);


2) that I believe in the integrity of most commercialized brewing
competitions, but do question the methods of judgement used at the "World
Beer Championships";


3) recognized that large brewers can brew "award winning" beers, but that
the styles that they dominate (American lager, "premium" lager, etc.)
are, at least to craft beer lovers and most people who actually care
about these competitions, inconsequential;


4) reiterated that while Blue Moon white may be in style, I am not
obsessed with style nor am I very concerned with style definitions;


5) that being said, I was trying to state in my original post that there
are several far better examples of Belgian white beer available in the US
(both domestically produced and not) that homebrewers should try to
emulate when reproducing white beer;


6) I never intended to put down anyone's beer taste or to try and put my
palate above anyone elses; and


7) wrote that I was aware of the large brewer interests that control, at
least in part, the Celis and Hoegaarden breweries.


Anyway, I would like to thank Keith again for writing and getting
involved here.





Graham L. Barron


"People, there's more to life than white bread!" --David Rosengarten


"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the

morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day."

          --Frank Sinatra

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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:04:28 -0700
From: Matt Gadow <mgadow at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: 100 IBU IPA's

I recently noticed a great looking recipe on Glenn Tinseth's Hop's page
(www.realbeer.com/hops) for Dave Brockington's Sister Star of the Sun
IPA!  This beer looked like a challenge I couldn't back away from-
3 oz. of Chinook Hops for bittering, plus 4 more oz. EKG / Fuggle for
flavor & aroma!
This generates about 125 IBU by Tinseth's method of calculation,
although the IPA style guidelines are 40-60, I believe, unless there is
an adjustment factor for the proximity to the hop growing region that
I'm not factoring in... :-)
Has anyone tried this recipe? - Dave has listed numerous BOS, and gold
medals, so it obviously has the credentials.
I brewed a this recipe of this last weekend, and it has fermented out
nicely from 1.066 down to 1.018 (although it was murder to CF chill -
the boil hops were removed at the end of the boil, but the 4 oz of
finish hops choked the old trusty choreboy!)
Dave suggested also dryhopping (.25oz fuggle) in the keg, so that's now
done, too!

Can't you all just taste the hops from your terminal?
Comments?
Anyone want to start a "worship of the IPA style" thread?
Your witty comebacks?

Matt Gadow
mgadow at ix.netcom.com
- -------------------------------
If you're not livin on the edge
You're takin up too much space...

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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:29:38 -0700
From: BBrowne at golder.com (Barry Browne)
Subject: Fermentors for 10+ gallon batches

  Beer me dudes
  
  I am seeking advice on fermentors for 10+ gallon batches.  Currently I am 
  retooling my homebrewery to increase my brewlength from 6 to 10+ gallons and 
  my last quest is to determine how to ferment this amount of beer in a single 
  vessel.  There are several obvious choices, the big glass demijohn, the 1/2 
  barrel SS keg, and 15 gal food grade HDPE barrels (like those used to ship 
  malt extract) .  I think the risks associated with a large beer-filled glass 
  vessel outweigh the benefits of single vessel fermentation and therefore I 
  eliminate a glass demijohn from consideration.
  
  The Sankey seems to be a decent option (durability etc.). I'd appreciate 
  hearing from folks about their experiences, good or bad, with these vessels 
  (or any others) as fermentors.  Do you use them as open fermentors (primary) 
  by cutting off the lid?  Do you clean up with NaOH?  Any other recommended 
  vessels??  Thanks.
  
  Barry Browne
  Atlanta, GA
  
  

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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:21:19 -0400
From: Katy or Delano DuGarm <dugarm at mnsinc.com>
Subject: Malta as a Yeast Starter

There's been some discussion recently of malta, the unfermented wort that
is popular as a drink or tonic in some Latino communities.  Looking back at
the HBD archives, I found conflicting information concerning malta's
suitability as a yeast starter.   

At least one writer indicated that yeast did quite well in malta, while
others suggested that yeast grew poorly if at all in malta.  I decided to
try it myself.  My conclusion: malta has preservatives in it that inhibit
yeast growth, making it useless as a yeast starter.

My corner grocery sells three kinds of malta:  Malta Goya, Malta India and
Malta Goya Lite.  All three are produced by The Lion, a brewery in
Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania.  I bought a six pack of Malta Goya, as it was
twenty cents cheaper than Malta India.

The label indicates that Malta Goya is "a cereal beverage brewed from
quality malt, hops, selected grains and corn syrup."  Sounds like my yeast
starter wort.  

I innoculated two 35-ml tubes of sterile wort with Yeast Culture Kit
Company American Ale yeast, and let them ferment.  I then pitched the two
tubes into identical sanitized 1-liter Erlenmeyer flasks.  One had two
bottles (24 fl. oz.) of malta, the other had approximately the same amount
of canned wort (pressure canned at 15 lbs. for 35 minutes).  I shook both
flasks in an attempt to aerate the two worts, and to try to degas the
malta, which is carbonated. 

In the course of several days the canned wort showed normal yeast growth,
with a kreusen.  The malta stayed inactive, though some fermentation did
occur (the specific gravity declined by 8 points).  I dumped the malta and
used the canned-wort starter in an American ale.  

I next tried fermenting two bottles of malta in another 1-liter Erlenmeyer
flask, using a 5 gram packet of champagne yeast.  This was much more
successful: yeast activity started quickly and the beer dropped 45 points.
There was a significant yeast cake at the bottom of the Erlenmeyer flask.

My guess is that malta contains potassium sorbate or some other
preservative to inhibit yeast development.  This makes sense, as otherwise
bottles of malta would explode on shelves with an alarming regularity.  The
dosage is enough to handle a small innoculation of yeast (hence the
difficulties the American Ale yeast had), but not enough to handle a large
amount of yeast, like the package of champagne yeast.  In practice, this
means that if you really want to, you can ferment malta, but it's a poor
choice for a yeast culturing medium.  This is a shame, as I'd much rather
buy my starter wort at the corner grocery store rather than canning it myself.

I called The Lion twice, but was unable to confirm their use of
preservatives in malta.  I can't think of any other way of explaining my
experience, though.

Delano DuGarm


Delano DuGarm
Arlington, Virginia
dugarm at mnsinc.com

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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:33:56 -0700
From: "Michael R. Frank" <mfrank at ag.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Flying Brews

I'm going to fly up to Denver for a few days to get away from the Tucson
heat and monsoons. I'd like to take some of my recent brews to a few
friends there.

Is it better to pack bottles in checked baggage, or carryon? Is either
allowed by the airlines? 

What is the collective experience on this?

Thanks,
Mike Frank
Senita Gulch Brewing

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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:53:35 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Killing Lactic bad guys

I developed a lactic infection in one of my cornies.  Actually, the
infection was in a beer that was in the cornie.  I'm pretty sure the cornie
itself is in perfect health  :-). 

To clean it, I rinsed it out and then splashed a solution of powdered beer
line cleaner in it and ran the stuff through the picnic tap, etc., letting
it sit awhile first.

Then I re-rinsed, and filled the whole thing up with Iodophor solution for
a few days (covered), ran that stuff through the picnic faucet and hose,
disassembled the whole thing, including all faucet parts, tore apart the
poppet valves, and soaked everything individually in Iodophor, rinsed, put
a new batch in and a few weeks (maybe four?) later....INFECTED again.

Does boiling water kill lactic bacteria?  if so, will the hot water ruin my
picnic faucet/hose/rubber gaskets?

If boiling water won't do it, how do I clean this cornie?  TIA.

Randy Ricchi


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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:23:26 -0500
From: "Mike Blakey" <blakey at fgi.net>
Subject: RE: Budweiser's born-on bull

Steve Jackson wrote:

>there's no way in hell that a fermentation could be completed 
>in a day. And I would guess Bud's "exclusive beechwood aging" 
>takes a bit longer than a few hours as well.

AB does not ferment, age, condition, filter, and package its beers all in
one day.  In fact, AB's process requires approximately 30 days to produce
Budweiser.  The born-on date symbolizes the day the beer was packaged. 
This is significant because the pasteurization process kills all living
organisms in the beer.  This is what makes commercial beer much different
from homebrew, which can continue to improve while aging for months.  As
AB's "multi-million-dollar marketing budget" accurately portrays, however,
"Fresh Beer is Better".  Commercial beers will begin to deteriorate AFTER
pasteurization and will worsen with age.

I believe it is possible for a beer, packaged shortly after midnight, to be
loaded on a truck and shipped from Columbus, Ohio to Indy by 6:00 AM. 
However, I, like yourself, am skeptical that the distributor would turn the
beer over that quickly.

My guess?  I know that AB had some initial problems with their born-on
dating system stamping the wrong dates.  Reportedly, the margin of error
was never more than plus-minus five days.  If they continue to have these
problems, then the beer in question may have actually been packaged
sometime between July 5 - July 9.  I find this much more believable.  In
either case, your friend was drinking a beer less than a week old, which is
much better than the industry average.


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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:30:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: Kit Lemmonds <klemmonds at aristotle.net>
Subject: Experiments with Sorghum Molasses

Hey guys and gals,

I recently used 2 pounds of sorghum molasses in an Old Peculier-like ale
that worked fairly well.  I was on my fourth bottle one night when a crazy
idea struck me - if they can make mead out of honey, why not an all-sorghum
brew, or at least a 'majority sorghum' brew?  Unfortunately, sorghum is a
little expensive to experiment with, so I would like to gather a little info
before I even try it.  Papazian warns that molasses can lend and
overpowering and unpalatable flavor in excess, but since sorghum is not
technically molasses I wonder if the results would be different.  If anyone
out there has used sorghum in a significant amount (let's say 1/5 of your
fermentables), would you please drop me a quick note on your results?

Thanks

Kit, who blames the UPS strike for all his brewing frustrations.


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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 20:02 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: Old Ale Recipe Question

I pulled out the "Wicked Old Ale" recipe from Cat's Meow. Looks pretty good
but I have a question abou the mash schedule. It calls for a rest at 95F and
122F (30 minutes each) even though the malt is "British two row". Then it
calls for 156-158F for sacharification to complete conversion and a mashout
at 170F. I could go with this but then it calls for taking 1/4 of the mash
and boiling it. What's the point here? Are we going for melanoidins without
being concerned about main mash temp? Does this make sense? It almost seems
the same as pressure cooking the first runnings for 30 minutes. And whatever
happened to that experiment anyway, did it really produce a malty flavor?

Charle (puzzeled) in N. Cal


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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:40:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mench5 at aol.com
Subject: re:keg baggage

when traveling to seattle a couple of months ago from the great beer
wastelands of florida, i could not resist taking a few 3g kegs to bring back
some of seattles finest.
the concern shown at baggage check-in was that they not be pressurized. i
left 5psi in the kegs so i could release the pressure in front of the
clerk,showing that they were at 0psi. i also told them i was a beer salesman
(yeah,right) and they were samples from the conference. from my understanding
you can check them as baggage with no problem(don't forget the 70lb weight
limit).
also, had some freinds taking kegs to cleveland last month and they were
using those antique pin lock kegs with no pressure valve. the wrong valve was
depressed and everyone at checkin was treated to a beer shower. even though,
they were allowed to check them as baggage.
btw, 3g. each of pike stout, pike pale and leavenworth ipa fresh off the
plane makes for a popular fellow where i live!!!

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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:55:44 +0500
From: "Keith Royster" <keith at ays.net>
Subject: jockey box / leaking CO2 tank

Hello fellow brewers! Got a couple of quick questions:

1) I already have a spare beer fridge in the garage but I frequently 
use it to control fermentation temps as well... especially now that 
I'm doing open fermentation in a 15 gallons Sankey that cannot be 
easily carried out of the hot garage into the house.  I was toying 
with buying a second fridge so I could dedicate one to fermenting and 
the other to serving, but I may also be interested in having a jockey 
box around for those occassional parties at distant locations.  So I 
was wondering how practical it is to just serve my own beer out of 
one at home.  Is it somehow harmful to the beer to serve it slowly 
over the course of a month or so through copper tubing? I imagine it 
might since the copper is easily dissolved from the low pH. What 
about SS tubing instead?

2) I moved my 25# CO2 tank the other day and thought if felt mighty 
light.  I had just refilled it a few months ago and only used it once 
but thought I remembered it feeling much heavier.  It has since just 
been sitting in the garage completely disconnected from all gas lines 
and the main valve completely shut.  It was retested and certified 
just over a year ago, plus I assume they pressure tested it when they 
last filled it recently.  Is it possible to have developed a very 
slow leak in the main tank fittings (remember, I have no lines hooked 
up at the moment)?  Shouldn't they have caught such a leak when they 
last filled it a few months ago?

Thanks-

Keith Royster - Mooresville, North Carolina
"An Engineer is someone who measures it with a micrometer,
marks it with a piece of chalk, and cuts it with an ax!"

mailto:keith at ays.net
http://www.ays.net - at your.service web design & hosting
http://www.ays.net/brewmasters -Carolina BrewMasters club page 
http://www.ays.net/RIMS -My RIMS (rated COOL! by the Brewery)
http://www.ays.net/movingbrews -pumps and accessories for advanced homebrewers

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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:31:22 -0700
From: smurman at best.com
Subject: apple juice starters//recent topics


With all the discussion of easy, safe starters I thought I'd mention a
method a buddy of mine uses.  He simply pops the top off a bottle of
apple juice, pitches the yeast, fits a top and opens a brew.  I'm not
saying this is the best method, but it does work.

//

What is with all the people whining about the Eisbock or botulism
threads?  This is like me complaining that people post too much about
RIMS or kegging because I'm not interested in them.  Both of these
subjects are directly related to homebrewing.  If you're not
personally interested, then page down to the next article.  If you
feel the digest has stagnated, then by all means start a new topic,
but don't tell others what they should discuss.  If you've really had
it, then unsubscribe.  I'm sure the HBD will gladly refund your
subscription fee.

Sorry, but I had to vent.

SM

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Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:49:57
From: al_ru at usa.net
Subject: Carbonation in small bottles

   Lady G wrote in #2471:
&gt; We found that the 22 oz bottles had a lot more fizz
&gt; than the 12 ozers.

   Whether really it and the quality of carbonation (by priming  
sugar) depends on a size of bottles?! Whether someone can explain
this effect (or to refute it)?
   I have 2 boxes of small bottles (on 300 grams) and I planned
to use them in near future. Is it bad idea for the reason of 
problems with carbonation (by priming sugar) and better to me use
bottles of a greater size?

Thanks for help in advance!
Al Petrukhin.

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Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:28:28
From: Alessandro Calamida <alessandro.calamida at auto.fiat.it>
Subject: Roasted barley. How??

Many recipes require roasted barley, but I couldn't find good instructions
on how to make it. 
CP book says roast barley is obtained gradually heating the barley up to
200 C, but it doesn't detail the procedure. I tried  putting some barley in
my electric oven,  raising the temperature to 200C and keeping this temp
for about 1 hour. I got hard dark brown grains, but I don't know if it is
true "roasted barley" that can be used in my beer.
Does anybody have a detailed recipe for this thing? 

Incidentally, I made an experiment putting some barley in my microwave oven
too.
I got brown/red grains, much softer than those in the electric oven, and
with a pop-corn like flavour. Why this difference? Is it something that can
be used in brewing?

What would I get if I roasted crystal malt instead?

TIA

	A. Calamida

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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:14:48 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: PBS Hopback


$85 for a hopback?!?
Yikes!

I've made extremely good ones from a 1 quart Mason jar for about $10 or
less.
OK, mine will only hold one oz of leaf hops, but for $75 I think it's
worth it.
Check it out at http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/gadgets/a

BTW, the page doesn't show it, but I'm now simply using lengths of 3/8"
copper
instead of the hose barb/plastic hose combination.

Works like a charm for me!

 -Alan


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Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:11:29 +0100
From: fredriks at abel.math.umu.se (Fredrik Staahl)
Subject: Re: Extraction Efficiencies

In HBD #2482, Rob Kienle writes about the importance of maintaining
temperature during sparging. I agree with everything he said. I used to
have a quite low and unpredictable efficiency, but now when I try to
maintain the temperature my extraction efficiency is a steady 88-92% (in
the sparge that is, not including later losses in break material etc.).

Some tips:

1. Make sure that mash-out temperature is 78C.

2. Underlet the false bottom with some boiling water before transferring
the mash into the lauter tun.

3. A lot of heat is lost when recirculating the first wort. Therefore I
heat it a little in the microwave before returning it to the lauter tun.

4. I keep the sparge water at 85C, and it could probably be even hotter
without raising the temperature in the lauter tun too much if you let it
cool a little towards the end of the sparge.

/Fredrik Stahl, fredriks at abel.math.umu.se



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