---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Hypochlorite (AJ)
  Wort hopping and CFC's (Some Guy)
  Tasting suggestions (Steve Potter)
  Take it off.  PLEASE (Jack Schmidling)
  Active ingredient in Bleach Solutions (The Kirbys)
  Re: baked beans beer (Sheena McGrath)
  Guiness clone & lactic acid (michael rose)
  too much gypsum (Ritter, Sharon/Dan )
  Maris Otter (Steve Potter)
  re: glass carboy carrier (Dick Dunn)
  "fridge guy" (Christopher Niehaus)
  Recipe suggestions, anyone ("Michael E. Dingas")
  Slurry? (SRJ)
  Water acidification (Utesres)
  Wrangling the Wild Yeast ("Mark Peacock")
  Re clean your pumps (kbjohns)
  passivating stainless ("August R Buerkle")
  Re: mash time/overnight mashes (Jeff Renner)
  Conversions ("David R. Burley")
  Re: glass carboy carrier (Scott Murman)
  Re: Composting, Warm temps for wheat ale, Malt Mil (Jim Bentson)
  Racking Problems (Robin Parnaby)
  Raspberry Mead, Quadruple, Spending Money (Alpinessj)
  Barrel o' Dunkel - Part 1 (Charles Burns)
  Coors Light Recipe? (Mark Weaver)
  Grain Volume (Tim.Watkins)
  California Materials Exchange ("Hunts, Jeff")



Happy Holidays!

  - The HBD Janitors and Steering Committee

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:33:31 -0400
From: ajdel at mindspring.com (AJ)
Subject: Hypochlorite

A few thoughts to add to the recent musings on bleach by Dave Burley and
Frederick Wills: Bleach is made by reacting chlorine gas with alkali:

     Cl2 + 2OH- --> Cl- + ClO- + H2O

as by bubbling chlorine gas through a solution of lye. Often the source of
alkali is the cathode of an electrolytic cell containing brine:

     2H2O + 2e --> H2  + 2OH-

with the chlorine coming from the anode:

     2Cl- --> Cl2 + 2e

Mixing gets the hydroxide to the anode where it reacts with the clorine as
in the first equation in this post. In any event, there is lots of alkali
around when bleach is made and it is desireable that this be so as bleach
is most stable at high pH as long as it is kept cool. Lye is often added to
concentrates to keep the pH at levels as high as 12 at which high pH it is
completely dissociated i.e. exists as OCl- ion because the pK of HOCl, the
acid, is approximately 7.5. Note that if alkaline bleach get hot the
hypochlorite ion disproportionates (i.e. undergoes auto oxidation/reduction
 - this is not the same as dissociation which was mentioned in this context
in one of the previous posts) to chlorate and chloride:

     3ClO- --> ClO3- + 2Cl-

At lower pH's hypochlorite ion combines with H+ ions to form hypochlorous
acid which is not stable and decomposes releasing molecular oxygen:

    2HOCl + 2H2O --> 2H3O+ + 2Cl- + O2(g)

Thus bleach, while it is not completely stable at high pH is more stable
than at low pH. If the pH drops below  5 the acid can disproportionate back
to chlorine gas:

    Cl-  +  H3O+  +  HOCl -->  Cl2  +  2H2O

The optimum pH for disinfectant action is reported to be 5 (Priest and
Campbell "Brewing Microbiology Second Edition") presumably because this pH
is low enough that all the hypochlorite is converted to hypochlorous acid
(which is the best bug killer) but not so low that excess hydrogen ion
encourages the hypochlorous acid to disproportionate. Under normal
circumstances a typical hypochlorite stock solution diluted to 50 - 300 ppm
has a pH of 7 - 9 (Priest and Campbell).

Many of the species associated with bleach are strong oxidizing agents. In
order of oxidation power (electrode potential) they are

        HOCl            1.611 Volt
        MnO4-           1.507 (For comparison)
        ClO3-           1.47
        Cl2(g)          1.358
        O2(g)           1.229
        ClO-            0.841

HOCl at 1.61 Volts is a stronger oxidizing agent than permanganate at 1.51
volts which is usually thought of as a strong oxidizer (and which was used
as an antiseptic at one time). Of the species listed HOCl is the best
oxidizer and as killing of bacteria is accomplished by stealing their
electrons it bleach is probably most effective at 5 < pH < pK  because the
concentration of HOClis maximized in that range. Nevertheless other
oxidizers are present under other conditions so it appears that bleach
should be effective, if less so, at higher pH, when hot, etc.

To summarize: Low pH ( but > 5) means maximum HOCl concentration
              HOCl is the best oxidizer and thus the best bug killer
              Higher pH means lower HOCl because of dissociation to OCl-
              At high temperature OCl- disproportionates to ClO3- and Cl-
              Store bleach at high pH and low temperature
              Use bleach at low pH (but > 5).
              If used at high pH use hot (?) (ClO3- is a better oxidizer
than ClO-
                 but only 1/3 of disproportionated ClO- converts to ClO3-)

Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.



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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:41:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Wort hopping and CFC's

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Dave Houseman aasks about CFC experiences related to hop bitterness 
predictions...

Though this really doesn't address your question, Dave, it does address 
the issue: add a false bottom to your boil kettle, and avoid the added 
time required for whirlpooling and settling. I use a Pico (R)[tm]<mnsqt> 
Brewing Systems false bottom in mine, and go right from the steep into 
the chiller. The bitterness levels in my brews are pretty much where I 
predict them (if not a little "light") via this method.

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brewing Page              http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html



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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 15:56:20 -0600
From: Steve Potter <spotter at MERITER.COM>
Subject: Tasting suggestions

Dear Collective,

My brother-in-law is a commercial pilot.  He recently began flying
international routes.  In Europe, his airline flies in to England, Ireland,
France and Sweden (Unfortuneatly not Belgium or Germany).  He is
willing to bring me fresh beer from Europe.  Which beers should I
request before he gets sick of hauling them for me. 

Puts a whole new twist on " I'll buy if you fly" doesn't it!

Steve Potter - Madison, Wi

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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:33:18 -0800
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Take it off.  PLEASE

Jack Schmidling says about his low alcohol beer process on
his web page:

"There is an Applicaton Note on my web page on a process I worked
out along with lab analysis of the beer after processing.  The bottom
line is you can not get rid of all the alcohol without additional
steps but you can get rid of enough that it will not turn on
an alcoholic person.

"I'd like to see this "proof". This sounds really dangerous to me
and I believe you are wide open for a lawsuit. 

"Getting a little hyper here aren't we?

"Please send me the analysis methods and results privately, especially 
the part where you establish the level of alcohol which will not affect a 
recovering alcoholic....

Are you planning on sueing me or representing me?


" Until then, I will maintain my position that this is likely
to cause real pain to someone who is a recovering alcoholic
out there who believes this.

Maintain what you wish but as a RECOVERED alcoholic, I can tell
you that drinking this stuff did not turn me on and it and other
non-alcoholic beers made my "recovery" possible by not depriving
me of the taste sensation that I enjoyed while I cleaned my 
system of alcohol.

The myth about "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholoic" is a
figment of the nice folks who make a living trying to "cure"
them.  Any alcoholic can be come a non-alcoholic by simply
limiting their intake to one glass a day.  It's called 
a commitment and the will to control it.  It's not a disease
it's a lazy brain.

"Take this note off your page. PLEASE!!!

This one really bugs me because by saying that, you make it
obvious that you did not read it.

js

- -- 
Visit our WEB pages: 
                        Beer Stuff.........http://ays.net/jsp
                        Astronomy.......http://user.mc.net/arf
             ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday



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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:44:03 -0800
From: The Kirbys <bkirby at tdn.com>
Subject: Active ingredient in Bleach Solutions

Fellow Homebrewers,

Dave Burley in HBD 2594 asks what the active species in alkaline bleaching
solutions is.  He says it is doubtful it is HOCl because of the strong
basic character of bleach.  It actually is the OCl ionic species that is
the reactive part but it usually requires a hydrogen source that is readily
available from water even though it is an alkaline solution.  In dilute
solutions the concentration of water is 55 molar which is about as
concentrated solution as one could want (or get).  The water furnishes a
proton by exchanging that proton with an OCl ion to generate an HOCl
molecule and an OH ion.  Then the HOCl molcule reacts with the oxidizable
substance.  Since in alkaline bleach the OCl ion is present in higher
concentration than in acidic solutions, it provides a source of OCl to
allow the sterilizing action to take place.  The HOCl molecule only needs
to exist long enough to be able to react.  It can also dissociate back to
OCl and water without reacting.  As with most other reactions increasing
the temperature allows the reaction kinetics to increase giving you either
a quicker or a more complete reaction.


Brien Kirby

Chemist and Brewer


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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:16:01 -0800
From: Sheena McGrath <sheena at gte.net>
Subject: Re: baked beans beer

Dear Digest Mavens:
Yes, I've come whining to you with another problem. I recently made a
Canadian Ale and a Double Dragon clone which both came out smelling like
baked beans. They were awful! The common factor is that both are light
coloured beers and both had adjuncts (corn and wheat, respectively). Is
this the dreaded DMS or have I got an infection. I used different
fermenters and different yeasts for both of them. I cooled them by
putting them in the bathtub for an hour and a half, with the lids on.
Thanks for any help,
Sheena

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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 17:44:24 -0800
From: michael rose <mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Guiness clone & lactic acid

Jon Ingram writes;
>Does anyone have a stout recipe that they would be willing to share with me
>that would produce a guiness like stout? A liquid extract recipe would be
>prefered. Thanks, Jon

I saw a recipe on the web(cats meow maybe?) that gave a basic stout
recipe and then called for the addition of 40cc of lactic acid before
bottling. Would this provide that Guiness *tanginess* or is this just
throwing the ph of the beer way off.

mike rose   mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net   riverside, ca

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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:39:55 -0700
From: ritter at bitterroot.net (Ritter, Sharon/Dan )
Subject: too much gypsum

I inadvertantly added 4 tsp. gypsum to a brown porter I brewed today For
some reason I was thinking about my Special Bitter recipe and Burton-style
water - duh. In any case, I'd like to use this mistake as a learning
experience. What should I expect in terms of taste from the high sulfate
levels I've added? Is there any hope this beer might be drinkable? Here are
the specifics:

OG - 1.055
IBU's - 30

7 1/2 lbs 2-row
14 oz. crystal
10 oz. Biscuit
12 oz. chocolate

Wyeast 1968

My tap water is *very* soft - 26 ppm calcium and 0 mg/L sulfate.



Dan Ritter <ritter at bitterroot.net>
Ritter's MAMMOTH Brewery - Hamilton, Montana



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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:07:14 -0600
From: Steve Potter <spotter at MERITER.COM>
Subject: Maris Otter

Dear Collective,
There has been a lot of talk lately about Maris Otter being a problem to
brew with.  In the last three months I have used 100 lbs of it in a variety
of beers.  I have used the product from Crisp Malting and from Hugh
Baird.  The only time I had any trouble was in a mash that contained a
large amount of flaked barley.  Perhaps the reason I have not had
problems is that I use an adjustable mill, look at my crush with every
batch, and make adjustments as needed.

What prompts me to post this message is that while catching up on my
HBD reading and drinking a Maris Otter based IPA, I came across the
request for a description of the taste of the malt.  I could say that it is
smooth and malty.  I could also say that it almost defines the flavor of
good English Ale for me.  But rather than say that I will just say
ahhhhhhhh.

Steve Potter - Madison, WI
I can barely keep track of myself, I don't see how I can be expected to
keep track of where Jeff is at. 

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Date: 28 Dec 97 00:56:35 MST (Sun)
From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: glass carboy carrier

Mark Tumarkin <tumarkin at mindspring.com> wrote, about moving glass carboys:
> I don't know if my solution is terribly creative but it certainly works. I
> use plastic milk crates as cradles, you know - the kind you see in stacks
> at the back of the grocery store. But please, don't "borrow" these. You can
> pick them up for a couple of bucks at many discount dept  stores. They make
> moving carboys safely a breeze as they give you two handles to making
> lifting easier, and they also protect the glass from bumps and bangs in
> moving or setting down. 

This much is good--don't steal them, and note especially that with the
declining use of glass and the declining availability of home delivery,
sturdy milk-carriers are increasingly available.

But please note also that the slob-store (excuse me, "discount center")
carriers may be second-rate, so watch carefully after you've had them for a
while, and if you see any cracks, discard them.  They really may not be
even designed to carry 50 lb on a regular basis.

> I have always distrusted the carboy handles that go around the neck of the
> carboy...

I have to agree with Mark on principle...those handles have *always*
bothered me.  BUT, I've been using them since they came out, at least ten
years and I don't know how much more!  (Hey, nobody made me sign that I'd
behave rationally!)  I've seen no failures myself.  I've heard of a couple
folks who saw questionable possible-cracks, but I've never heard of an
outright failure even though I have heard of many carboys destroyed by
other means.

>...It seems to me that lifting a full and heavy carboy puts a lot of
> stress on the glass. It may be up to it until it gets shocked or stressed
> by a slight tap against something in transport or setting it down on a
> concrete floor - with possibly scary results...

All this is true, but I have to point out that the carboys most of us use
first saw service as water-bottles, and the folks who deliver[ed] water
bottles used a gadget that snagged the bottles just under the neck...just
as the homebrew-shop carboy-carriers do!  (It's a plastic handle with a
pickle-fork sort of grabber for the neck.)  Yes, you have to take care when
you set the carboy down, but how does the carrier affect that?  If the
carrier is a strap-arrangement, you can just as easily arrange to have some
amount of padding where you set down the carboy; that seems like a good
plan anyway.
- ---
Dick Dunn       rcd, domain talisman.com       Boulder County, Colorado  USA
   ...Are you making this up as you go along?

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Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 01:14:23 -0800
From: Christopher Niehaus <critters at cosmoslink.net>
Subject: "fridge guy"

If the "fridge guy" sees this, could you e-mail me? I have some chest
freezer questions.
Or if anyone knows his address please mail me.

Thanks
Chris
critters at cosmoslink.net


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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:50:51 -0500
From: "Michael E. Dingas" <dingasm at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Recipe suggestions, anyone

My local brewshop had a sale on 'expired' cans of extract. I bought two =
3.3 lb cans of Brewferm Diablo Belgium and have no idea what to try. I =
thought of a Trappist Ale but am not yet out of the newbie stage. Can =
anyone suggest a not-to-difficult recipe which limits my skills to =
adding hops/grains?

Mike (Warner Robins, GA)

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Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:23:32 -0500
From: SRJ <komusubi at together.net>
Subject: Slurry?

Hello All,

I brewed a stout last Sunday using liquid yeast 1028 and want to
re-pitch this into a new batch but cant brew today .
Should I rack to a secondary and then store the slurry until next Sunday
or can I leave it in the primary until then.
If I should store the slurry whats the best way to do that.

Private E-mail is ok

Thanks in advance and Happy Holidaze

SRJ



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Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:02:56 EST
From: Utesres <Utesres at aol.com>
Subject: Water acidification

Could someone please demonstrate the equations for reducing alkalinity of
water using 10% food grade phosphoric acid?  I've been using 88% lactic acid
to date with good results but would like to try phosphoric.  The water
alkalinity is 350 ppm (as CaCO3), 483 ppm hardness (as CACO3), pH = 7.6; Let's
assume we want the alkalinity to be reduced to 50 or 100 ppm in 4 Gallons
water for mashing.  It would be interesting to do 
the same exercise for lactic acid to see if it agrees with the treatment I
arrived at empirically.
   Also, what would be the equations for reducing the pH for sparging? 
   The equations for strong acids like HCl are relatively easy; just don't
know where to start for these weak acids.

Thanks
Mike Utes 

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Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:31:02 PST
From: "Mark Peacock" <peacock_m at hotmail.com>
Subject: Wrangling the Wild Yeast

Although we typically think of wild yeast in beer as a bad thing, some 
recent experimentation with sourdough bread has me considering some 
experiments with wild yeast beer.  Over the holiday break, I used the 
French "chef levain" technique to capture and grow wild yeast.  The 
technique (as pulled from my wife's "Baking with Julia" book) starts 
with a simple flour and water dough, which is left out in the open for 
2-3 days in hopes of capturing wild yeast.

As I was growing my "chef" into a larger "sponge" through a series of 
"feedings", I was struck by the similarity to "stepping up" a beer yeast 
starter before pitching.  This started me thinking about using my newly 
captured yeast in a brewing experiment.  Given the amount of brewing 
done in my house, I may just be taking a _very_ circuitous route to 
Wyeast #1968 starter, but it seems worth an experiment or two.  Does 
anyone have thoughts on how move from my dough starter to a wort starter 
- -- other than dropping a few hunks of dough into a 1.040 OG wort?

An additional thought is that the "chef levain" process of capturing and 
growing yeast in dough has selected/preferentially grown bread yeast, 
and potential brewing yeasts have been lost.  Has anyone tried leaving a 
starter wort out in the open for self-innoculation?  If so, did you 
capture something other than mold?

Regards,
Mark Peacock
Hinsdale, Illinois

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:57:18 -0500
From: kbjohns at peakaccess.net
Subject: Re clean your pumps

<italic>Jeff Renner wrote:

I have a magnetic coupled pump that I bought from picoBrewing Systems. 
I

don't know the brand but I imagine it's typical.  It needs to be primed
by

lowering it beneath the level of the supply liquid.  Recently, as I
realize

in retrospect, it had become a little harder to get a flow going, or to

keep it going.  This happened gradually enough 


I've always flushed my pump with clear water at the end of each brew,
then

recirculated 50ppm iodophor for 10 or 20 minutes, and thought that this

would keep it clean.  Boy, was I wrong.  I will add a CIP (clean in
place)

recirculation of PBW 


The moral is to keep your pumps clean.


</italic>This is problem that appears more with bronze pumps than with
plastic. If you use a plastic mag drive pump you will not get any
buildup. A flush with warm water, after brewing should be enough to clean
the plastic pump. In addition, every  few months I do recirculate B-Brite
through the system. 


Brewers should also be aware that neither bronze or plastic pumps have
sanitary connections and threads are a great place for crud to accumulate
and grow bacteria. You should take care to insure connections are free
from build up.

Bob

Precision Brewing Systems URL http://www.wp.com/hosi/pbscat.html

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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:14:12 -0500 (EST)
From: "August R Buerkle" <buerkle at seas.upenn.edu>
Subject: passivating stainless


I had new stainless bottoms put into a pair of pots.  I suspect the new 
steel needs to be passivated, as it is shiny and exhibits small rust 
spots.  
	Are these bottoms candidates for passivation?  Also, where can I 
get information on how to passivate? 

	Thanks

Gus Buerkle
buerkl at cooper.eu

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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:01:49 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: mash time/overnight mashes

Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> writes:

>Time, temperature and the amount of water used in the mash all have an
>effect >on phenolic extraction from grist. The two major disadvantages of
>overnight >mashing IMO are probable excessive extraction of phenolics, and
>the very high >likelihood of getting a good thermophilic lactic acid
>bacterial 'sour mash' >flavor in the resulting beer.

I frequently mashed over night for years in my home oven set at 150F with
no problems, including the two you surmise could be problematic.  These
were fairly stiff mashes.  The temperature was typically a rock solid 153F
for over eight hours.  There was never any sign whatsoever of lactic acid
bacteria or anything else growing.  I don't think anything grows that high,
does it?  Ordinary attention to water chemistry (gypsum in city-softened
water) kept the pH in the proper range, which evidently kept phenolics,
etc. from being extracted.  At this distance (seven years plus - the oven
in the new house wouldn't hold a 33 qt kettle), I can't say categorically
(as I can wrt lacto) that I didn't have phenolic extraction.  That's not as
obvious as lactic sourness and stink, but I don't think I did.  No theory
here, just observation of many tens of mashes.  Most were done with British
M&F pale malt bases, a few were German Pilsner malt.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:30:52 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Conversions

Brewsters:

Jim Schnaidt says:

>Does anyone out there have a formula for converting the
 numbers from a Brix
>hydrometer to specific gravity points?

The nice thing about Brix is that it directly reads the percent
of dissolved sugar at the calibration temperature of the
saccharometer in a predominantly sugar environment like juice.
Of course in wort, it reflects the OG  which includes more than
dissolved sugars which contribute significantly to the SG  =


Balling and Brix are the same, BTW. So if you have a table of
SG  vs % by weight concentration of sucrose or a Balling Table
then you have a Brix table. BTW There is a heavier than water and
lighter than water Baume table vs density.

I won't reproduce the entire table, but from Progressive
Winemaking by Duncan and Acton, a plot and interpolation
should do the job for you:

Sg             Brix          Baume'
1.000         0.0            0.0
1.010         3.0            1.4
1.020         5.5            2.8
1.030         8.0            4.2
1.040        10.4           5.6
1.050        12.8           6.9
1.060        15.2           8.2
1.070        17.6           9.4

If  you need more accuracy than this then go to the CRC =

handbook and look up the SG versus concentration of sucrose.

On a related subject, from the CRC Handbook, the formula
for converting old recipes using the various heavier than water
( the heavy) Baume' scales with different temperatures of
standardization is:

SG is m/(m-d) where
m is 145 in the US,
and 144 ( old scale used in Holland) =

and 146.78 ( New scale or Gerlach scale)
and d is the Baume reading.
- -------------------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:27:27 -0800
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: glass carboy carrier 


Mark Tumarkin mentioned using milk crates to carry full carboys. I
came up with something different for the same purpose.  

I needed to insert and remove full glass carboys from my chest freezer
without turning my back into a slinky.  I got some ultra cheap 1/2
inch wood, and made a double thickness cross (or X or T), i.e. a 1"
thick, nailed-together, 1-1/2 foot wide cross.  I drilled holes near
the end of each cross, and inserted some 1/2 inch truck rope, and
looped it across to the opposite side.  Tieing knots in the ends is
enough to secure the rope.  Repeat for the other arm of the cross.
The whole thing sits nicely on the knotted rope ends.  This gives a
sturdy carrying harness that I can set my carboy on and raise and
lower using the truck rope handles.  My back is appreciative.  I've
thought of adding some wheels for rolling, but I have hardwood floors,
and don't want to mess them up.  I guess the total cost was around
$3-$5 from the local mega-hardware store.

You can also sew or buy a harness made from wide nylon strapping
material.

SM
about a 1/2 days drive from the North Coast Brewing Co., makers
of Old Rasputin

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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:46:47 -0500
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at htp.net>
Subject: Re: Composting, Warm temps for wheat ale, Malt Mil

Hi All:

1)  There have been a few comments on composting that I showed to my wife
Julie, who runs a large on-farm composting program here on Long Island. To
summarize her comments and references:

Dan Johnson asked about the safety to plants from ALL brewery waste. A
number of people didn't seem to want to use hops. 
"The Rodale Book of Composting" has a section on Hops. It states ".. Spent
hops are an excellent garden fertilizer, containing(when dry) 2.5 to 3.5 %
Nitrgogen and 1% Phosphoric Acid. They have a strong odor when wet and fresh
but this dissapates rapidly." The text goes on to say they compost quickly. 
As a point of data, I have put my grains, hops and yeast residue into the
compost pile for years  and have had no problems with adverse reactions by
plants.
I should point out that there has been some discussion about dogs being
attracted to spent hops and reports of canine poisoning so that some caution
may be advised for dog owners.

John Varady stated that his "composting" of the grains stinks and he has
fozen grains at the end of the winter. This usually indicates that the pile
is not  NOT composting properly. The  most probable cause for odor is due to
high moisture content and infrequent turning, thus allowing  the pile to go
anaerobic. Even in winter the pile should be about 120 deg F in the center
when the compost is fresh.

 Guy Gregory suggested using grass clippings with the grains.In many
regions, this again can lead to an anaerobic mess since grass is also high
in moisture. Any pile of grass left sitting by itself quickly goes to a
smelly, slimey mess for this reason. The answer is either to turn very
frequently (once a day) or to combine with other materials.

Composting is a LOT like brewing. There is a stepped sequence of complex
bio-chemical reactions that progress through a narrow range of temperatures
and pH which trigger or de-trigger the processses as the conditions change.
As in mashing the 'ideal' temperatures for these processes are in the 120 to
160 deg range.  

Based on my wifes farm compsting experience she suggested that the easiest
way for a homeowner to compost their  brewery waste without recourse to
daily turning would be by mixing leaves into the pile in roughly 3 parts
leaves  to 1 part grain  by volume. The leaves don't add excessive moisture,
give sufficient bulking to allow air to get to the pile and do not break
down or compact as fast as grass. She also suggests keeping the pile size at
least a cubic yard (3' x 3' x 3')or more since  smaller piles generally can
lead to low temperatures and/or excessive drying. If you can't get leaves
you can substitute shredded paper bags or newsprint. Be careful of newsprint
as the inks in some papers may contain undesirable chemicals. Turn the pile
2 to 3 times the first week and then once a week for about the next 2 - 3
months. If you can, watch the temperatures of the center, try to keep at 120
to 160 deg and turn if the pile cools too much..


2)  Jorge recently commented about not brewing in the summer due to 30degC
(86 deg F) temperatures and not being able to use any of the 'standard'
cooling methods. Dave Burly responded by suggesting using a wheat beer or
California Common yeast strain and cooling as best he could. 

I have had a lot of experience comparing wheat beers made from the same
batch but fermented at different temperatures. This came about when I was
working at a brew-pub that allowed me to take out five gals of each batch as
we filled the fermenter. I would take this home and ferment it myself.  I
can  say that all the t beers that used  Wyeast 3068 (Weihenstephan) very
definitely degrade badly when fermented at room temperatures above 80 deg.
The beer became very acidic  tasting, lost that beautiful orange color and
became more gray-like and had more phenolic flavor compared to the
temperature controlled (67 deg F) brew-pub product from the same batch. When
I repeated the process  at cooler home fermentation  temperatures ( 70 deg
F) , the differences between the home fermented and brew-pub fermented
product were much less apparent. I would suggest that you make every effort
to keep the fermentation temp. in the suggested range, at least for this
popular yeast strain.

3)  To add my 2 cents to the resurging mill thread, for years I have used a
well adjusted Corona mill to crush my grains. I recently borrowed a VERY
old, heavily used, non-adjustable Malt Mill. Even with a carefully adjusted
gap spacing on the Corona, the quality of the crush from the Malt Mill is
very much better. My mash efficiency has increased from around 82% with the
Corona to around 87% since I changed to the Malt Mill. By visual inspection,
the crushed grains from the Malt Mill look much more like the results from
the brew-pubs professional mill. My Corona definitely shatters a larger
fraction of the husks, or passes them with no crushing.My guess is that the
Corona'squality of crush will probably vary more from one mill to another
whereas the Malt Mill and Valley mills are probably more consistent. 

Jim Bentson
Centerport NY ( 45 miles east of  the mainland)
- --
Registered ICC User
check out http://www.usefulware.com/~jfoltz



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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:16:15 -0800
From: robin_p at juno.com (Robin Parnaby)
Subject: Racking Problems

Hi there Homebrewers I'm new to this list.

 Drew Buscareno <drewbuscareno at skyenet.net> wrote:
"Is there a fool proof way to rack beer from one carboy to the next 
and what would the equipment cost?  Is there some sort of siphon
starter pump that has been developed for this very purpose?"

I use a hand operated plastic oil pump and it seems to work well to 
start the siphon.
It is also easy to clean.

You can get one from an auto store for about $8.

Robin Parnaby

robin_p at juno.com

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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:08:26 EST
From: Alpinessj <Alpinessj at aol.com>
Subject: Raspberry Mead, Quadruple, Spending Money

Raspberry Mead - Bob Fesmire
There is a digest devoted to mead, I'm not sure of the address, but its been
posted many times before. Mead is very simple to make (a lot more so than
beer). You just have to be patient and wait a while to drink it. I try to make
mead like champagne, sparkling and on the lighter side. I usually make mead
for X-Mass and New Years celebrations. My normal mead recipe goes something
like this:
(Recipe for 5 gallons)
12 lbs light honey
1 tbs Acid Blend
1 tsp yeast nutrient
champagne yeast (I've had good results with both liquid and dry)
Fruit extract if desired

Disolve honey and acid blend in 5 gallons hot water. Bring to a boil and boil
for 10 minutes. Skim off the "sludge" that collects on the top of the boil.
Cool to 70 degress, pitch yeast and nutrient, then airate (oxygenate is
better). Ferment at 65 - 70 degress for 2 weeks. Transfer to secondary for 1
month (or until gravity has fallen below .995 and visible fermentaion has
stopped). Add fruit extract at bottling to taste. If you want sparkling mead
add 1/2 to 2/3 cup corn sugar. Now comes the hard part. Wait at least 1 year
before drinking. The mead will actually improve over several years. I realize
this is a very general recipe with lots of margin for error (especially on
when to bottle), so if anyone has specific questions please e-mail privately.
An excellent source of ingredients (honey, yeast, acid blend, and extract) is
St Patrick's of Texas. They are on the web. (Normal disclaimer, just a happy
customer). The honey they sell is especially good for light meads and comes in
12 land 6 lb buckets.

Quadruple
I think the beer you are referring to is La Trappe Quadruple. As far as I
know, it is the only Quad available in the US market. La Trappe is the only
"Trappist" brewery located outside of Belgium. They also make a single,
double, and triple. To make all you HBD'ers outside of Colorado envious,
Falling Rock in downtown Denver currently has La Trappe Quadruple on tap :)

Spending Money
With all the things you listed, you will need a lot more than $250 for your
set-up. I would recommend starting with the Gott cooler mash tun, and trying
to make your own false bottom if you have access to some stainless steel
screen. Next, "obtain" (by whatever means you are comfortable with, nothing
illegal, yada yada) one or two 1/2 barrel stainless steel kegs and convert the
first one into a brewpot and the second into a sparge vessle. You can find
lots of help on the web for completing these tasks (or just e-mail me
privately). My immersion chiller works just fine for 5 gallon batches. If your
tap water is not cold enough you may want to consider a "pre-chiller". I
basically have a second immersion chiller I put in ice-water that my water
runs through before it gets to the immersion chiller. You could also make your
own counter-flow chiller but I am still not convinced its usefulness outways
its risks.

Malty New Year ! (sorry Rob)
Scott Jackson
The Jackson Backyard Brewery, Denver CO
"Sipping La Trappe Quad with a smile :)"

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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 12:37 PST
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: Barrel o' Dunkel - Part 1

Apologies for the bandwidth, but I just had to tell this story...

How many brewmeisters does it take to make one barrel of beer? Well 
yesterday it took 4 of us. Seems that Dave (yep, Dave Sapsis of BJCP fame) 
has this great mashtun he made out of an old oak wine barrel cut in half. 
Fitted with a slotted copper manifold, it will hold probably upwards of 100 
lbs of grain, depending on water/grist ratio. He loves to use it but seldom 
can, due to the great volume of wort it produces.

Last week Dave invited me and Brian and Brian, known as the yeasty boys (but 
that's another story) to come over Sunday and brew a barrel or more of 
Dunkel. I wouldn't have missed this for anything. I think Dave is becoming 
known as one of the west coast's most dangerous brewers. He's got a hose 
hooked up to a hot water heater in the garage, handy but can get a bit 
dangerous when you drop the nozzle on the patio which we managed to do 
several times during the brew session. At one point Brian ended up with a 
suspicious looking wet spot that extended from his crotch down to the knees 
of his pants. The wine barrel/mash tun was set up on top of a plank of wood 
precariously balanced on some milk crates about 3 feet off the ground. The 
whole thing sat at about a 10 degree angle and of course the bottom of the 
wine barrel hung over both sides of the plank. OSHA would have a field day 
if they saw something like this in a commercial brewery.

Well, we got started about 10:30 in the morning after pow-wowing and 
deciding to do a double decoction. About 15 gallons of water (direct from 
water heater hose) into the tun (Dave calls it a mash tuB now) along with 
about 70 lbs of grain (grist bill below). Mashed in at around 104F. He's got 
a spoon that resembles a canoe oar and I'm quite sure could be used 
effectively to row a boat. It was a thick mash, a bit hot for an acid rest 
and a bit cool for a protein rest but we got the enzymes into a liquid form 
and that's what counted.

It was a thick mash that smelled wonderful with the mix of malt and old oak. 
Everyone did remark how fine the crush was (not GOOD, but Fine - ie, we were 
wondering if it would lauter very well, hmmm). After 15 or 20 minutes we put 
about 2 gallons of fresh brewing water into a 15 gallon keg/kettle and 
scooped about 10 gallons of very thick mash in on top of it. Started 
stirring like mad, fairly low heat. Seems like it took forever to bring that 
huge (at least on homebrewer's scale) to saccarification temp. I wasnt' 
watching the time, but my guess is 20-30 minutes. We all 4 took turns 
stirring and we did stir constantly to avoid scorching the starch. Got it up 
to about 149F and then rested it for 15-20 minutes. Nobody was assigned as a 
timekeeper, we were all toking away on cigars, several conversations going 
on at the same time so the timing was approximate on almost everything we 
did yesterday.

Anyway, the mash tasted sweet so we figured it was time to boil it. Stirring 
only occasionally now since Dave assured us that since it was all converted 
we wouldn't have to worry about scorching the starch. About this time we all 
started getting pretty hungry. The decoction boiled as we debated cooking 
lunch, getting sandwiches, pizza delivered or take out mexican. The debate 
wore on...

Dave insisted on a ritual boil over on every kettle including the decoction 
so after we made a nice mess around the decoct kettle, we returned it all to 
the main mash. This was WORK! The top of the mash tun was about 5 feet off 
the ground and with that much grain it was a pain to stir. We had 2 or three 
large spoons (and an oar) and managed to get it pretty well stired up. The 
temp hit between 149F and 153F depending on where you stuck the thermometer 
probe. I thought this was a bit low, but the Brian's agreed that the Munich 
malt already had plenty of dextrins and everything would be ok. Now it was 
time for more serious discussions about food and time to evaluate a few beers.

After about 30-40 minutes of saccarification, we took another 10-12 gallons 
of thinner mash into the decoction kettle. This time Dave assures us that no 
stirring is needed at all, the mash I fully saccarified. So we turned the 
fire up high and let 'er rip. After boiling (over at least once) for about 
10 minutes, back it went into the mash tun. It was intended as a mashout but 
I don't think we made it beyond about 158F. My notes start getting a bit 
blurred about this time.



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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:46:48 -0500
From: Mark Weaver <HeadBrewer at eci.com>
Subject: Coors Light Recipe?

My Fellow Brewers,

I have a friend who (I am begging forgiveness even before
I mention the name of the beer) likes Coors Light. He has
asked me on repeated occasions to try and replicate this
beer, and finally I agreed to do it (4 months ago). Does
anyone know a recipe (all grain) for this beer or something
similar? I have made light beers before, all grain single
decoctions that were actually pretty good (albeit highly
hopped). I know the Grist Bill calls for corn and rice, but
don't know the percentage they represent, nor the hopping
profile, O.G. or if it is 6 Row or 2 Row? Any specialty malts?

Thanks for all your help. Er... You can either e-mail me
direct or post here on the forum. I hope this request has
not lowered your opinion of this already lowly brewer... ;-)

Prost!
Mark
- --
Mark Weaver - Brewer on the Loose
HeadBrewer at eci.com
75'02 / 72tii
"No, I don't brew heads....."
http://markweaver.com2tom.com/home.html




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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 16:31:26 EST
From: Tim.Watkins at analog.com
Subject: Grain Volume

Hey all,

I hope everyone had a nice holiday, and look forward to another great year 
on the HBD!  Anyhow, on to brewing.  Santa managed to bring me a nice new 
MaltMill this year.  What a guy!  I now get to buy my base malt in 55lb 
sacks.  My plan is to store the grain in a HDPE bucket, but I need to know 
how large of a bucket I'll need.  Does anyone know how much volume I'll 
need to store that much grain?  I was thinking of perhaps a 10 gallon 
bucket, or maybe a 15 gallon.  Does anyone know for sure?  

By the way, I live in an apartment, so I'm basically looking for the 
smallest container that will fit the whole bag.

Thanks,

Tim
Lowell, MA

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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:25:20 -0800
From: "Hunts, Jeff" <jhunts at CIWMB.ca.gov>
Subject: California Materials Exchange

Hello to the Collective and especially to:

 Jim Nasiatka <Jwylde at sirius.com> who wrote in HBD#2595 asking about
sources of surplus industrial equipment and a previous posting pointing
small brewers to these potential gold mines.  I believe Jim was
referring to my posting regarding a program called the *California
Materials Exchange* or CALMAX which I manage here from bureaucracy
central in Sacramento (90 miles ENE of Jim).  I encourage anyone looking
for inexpensive or free equipment to check it out -- if not for the
materials listed then at least to find a link to a materials exchange
closer to you.  Hoppy hunting!

http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/mrt/calmax/calmax.htm

=============================================
Jeffery L. Hunts
Business Resource Efficiency & Waste Reduction (BREWR) Program
California Integrated Waste Management Board
916/255-2492
jhunts at ciwmb.ca.gov
(aka: Donner Party Homebrewing -- "goes great with finger food!")

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---