---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  curry beer (JPullum127)
  re: Three Tiered Brew Systems (John_E_Schnupp)
  Slow Cooling (Jack Schmidling)
  travel (kathy)
  Fermentation chiller (fridge)
  Competitions and categories (John Murphy)
  Homebrew clubs on CO Western Slope? ("Bret A. Schuhmacher")
  Natural Gas Conversions (Tom Clark)
  RE: Old Wyeast Pack ("Timothy Green")
  Fridge & Chiller (KennyEddy)
  Wyeast dates; candy-like flavor; unboiled kits (Samuel Mize)
  old Wyeast smack packs (Herbert Bresler)
  Re:  small fridge fermentation chiller (Ed Choromanski)
  De-leading brass/sparge water/Moving Brews/used refrigerator ("Victor Farren")
  Re: Open Fermentation - Homebrew Digest 2734 (KESimmonds)
  What leads to the creation of higher/fusel alcohols? ("Victor Farren")
  Old Wyeasts (Fred Waltman)
  Size Matters (Stephen Harrington)
  Old Wyeast Packs ("Humphrey, Patrick at prdapp65")
  SS Conical Info ("Fortes, Jim R")
  Ginger Chile brew... am I nuts? (cag17)
  Stuck ferment ("Mercer, David")
  All grain equip. (Kevin TenBrink)
  old wyeast ("Ludwig's")
  Just to light ("Jason Gorman")


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rpmattie at voicenet.com. 


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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 00:18:14 EDT
From: JPullum127 at aol.com
Subject: curry beer

my friend the nepalese chef wants me to make him a curry flavored beer after
tasting and falling in love with my jalapeno beer, has anybody ever made one,
heard of one, any suggestions  please help me, its allways important to stay
on the good side of the chef.         thanks         marc


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Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:25:30 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: Three Tiered Brew Systems

>I've decided to upgrade my all-grain system to the basic tiered brewhouse
>that we all know and love.
 ...
>Heretofore, I've just sort of pieced together my own system, so I'm a bit
>wary of buying an off-the-shelf system new from a supplier.

This is my experience, at least cost related.  I recently built a 3 tier
stand.  It cost me just over $300 for the materials.  I used uni-strut
material called Super Strut.  I now know why manufactured stands cost
so much.   A lot of the fun was designing the stand to my specifications
and to meet the requirements of my brew area and equipment.  The pots
(8 gallon for hot water and 15 gallon for boil) and cooler (10 gallon Gott)
were acquired individually over a few years to meet various needs I had at
the time so I can't comment on their cost vs. a complete system.  I also
have all of the components necessary to convert it to RIMS, these parts
were acquired as the checkbook would allow but the biggest expense was the
pump.

I have yet to brew an all grain batch and I have not yet done a 10 gallon
boil even though I have a pot which will allow it.  In fact, I will be
brewing my first all grain batch this week.  Kinda' nervous about
venturing into new territory (for me) but it shouldn't be too bad.

For me, part of the fun of homebrewing is making my own equipment.  It
is tailor made to fit my specific requirements.  I can't say it's a whole
lot cheaper that buying something ready to go out of the box.  Especially
when you have to try a couple of times to get it the way you want it.
But the satisfaction is equal to that of producing a truly great brew.
If you're lacking in ability or tools you might want to consider a
commercial system, but if OTOH, you're a tinker like me build it yourself.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 23:21:17 -0700
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Slow Cooling

Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> says:

" When you stop the boil, but while the wort is still hot (Fix says 
158F), SMM is still being converted to DMS, but it is *not* boiling 
off.  Slow cooling *CAN* result in excessive DMS.

I am not inclined to argue with George (or you, for that matter)
and you have rationalized the "CAN" but that still leaves us with
"excessive" and "158F".

Can't help but wonder what happens at these magic dogmatic temps.
Obviously, it's a curve of some sort and someone had to make a 
judgement at to when it gets "excessive".  But leaving the number
aside, the word excessive becomes the "controlling legal authority'
er, ah.... the issue.

I suspect there is more at issue here than simply having a "very
high threshold of sensitivity for DMS".

It is also possible that some folks have a very low threshold for
such things and can not possibly enjoy a beer made by anyone but
themselves.  Not suggesting this is your case but I really do 
believe that much of this mumbo jumbo is simply fodder for the
presses.  What else would all the folks do who make money talking
and writing about beer, if they didn't run tests and produce
magic numbers and all sorts of dogma?

"In my case (for the malts I use and based upon my senses), I feel
slow cooling does indeed result in excessive DMS for most styles.

Something wierd about sticking that word "feel" in there but
the bottom line is, as usual, do you like the beer?  
If not, Fix it. (Pun intended.)

js


- -- 
Visit our WEB pages: 
                        Beer Stuff.........  http://ays.net/jsp
                        Astronomy.......  http://user.mc.net/arf
             ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday



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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 06:30:52 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: travel

The Alantic Monthly has a nice travel article by James Fallows titled
"Beyond Prague" which talks about the Bohemian countryside and
particularly the enjoyment of beer, breweries, beer museums and beer
glassware.  If you can't get there in person........

cheers, jim booth, lansing, mi



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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:29:01 -0400
From: fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu
Subject: Fermentation chiller

Greetings folks,

 Mark Tumarkin asks about using an apartment fridge as a cooling 
source for a fermentation chiller based on Ken Schwartz's plans...

> I was recently given an old apt. or office size fridge. It is a Norcold
> Mod. E-200 WA. It is quite small. Too small to hold a carboy (or    
> even very many bottles!), so I have been considering using it as   
> the cooling source for a fermentation chiller based on Ken > 
Schwartz's plans. 

 I have heard from several  folks who have built chillers such as this, 
using a small fridge as a cooling source. From your description I 
assume this is a "cube" fridge, about 18" or so on each side. I think 
this would be a great arrangement! In fact, I'm looking to build 
something similar. 10 gallons of fermenting pilsener seems to have 
taken over my chest freezer and I need more room :-). I'm keeping a 
close eye on the dumpsters here at the school for one of these 
fridges (It's nearly graduation time and you'd be surprised to see 
what gets thrown out). 

 After taking a quick look at Ken's "Son of fermentation chiller" plans 
<http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy/chiller/chiller.html> I think they
would adapt well to the use of a cube fridge. I would omit the baffle 
and fan panels. This should allow enough room for 2 carboys 
without altering other dimensions. I would remove the fridge door 
and cut an opening in one of the chiller panels to fit the fridge 
opening. Mounting the fridge high on the chiller panel will help to 
establish a convection current in the chiller and minimize 
temperature stratification. If this isn't convenient, a fan could be 
used to circulate air within the chiller as in Ken's ice-cooled design.
An external temperature controller will likely be needed for warmer 
fermentation temperatures.

 The chiller could probably be made somewhat larger if desired, 
depending upon the ambient temperatures the chiller will be 
exposed to. 

 Any comments or suggestions, Ken? Others?
Hope this helps!

Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu


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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:03:25 -0500
From: John Murphy <jbm at ll.mit.edu>
Subject: Competitions and categories

In light of the recent discussion on how to run a competition "the right
way," I'm curious how many people consider the following description the
right way to qualify beers for MCAB: 


The dry stout I entered in the '98 Boston Homebrew Competition (run by
the Boston Wort Processors) won 1st place in the stout category
(www.wort.org/BHC/winners.html). It also won 3rd place Best of Show.
The BHC is one of the qualifying events for MCAB. On the BHC entry form
it is stated that "Winners in 18 subcategories will qualify to enter in
the MCAB national championship round." Dry stout is one the 18
subcategories. If you notice from the winner's list, the BHC qualified
the 3rd place beer in the stout category as the dry stout for MCAB. 
According to the BHC, my beer didn't qualify for MCAB because they
decided to qualify beers from the first round of judging.


If a dry stout is judged to be the best overall stout in a competition,
is it not also the best (and winning) dry stout at that competition?
Furthermore, when that dry stout then goes on to place 3rd B.O.S., with
no other stouts in B.O.S., does this not reinforce the notion that this
is indeed the best dry stout at the competition? The BHC and MCAB did
not see it like this when I inquired. 


Cheers


- --

John Murphy

jbm at ll.mit.edu



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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 06:33:58 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Bret A. Schuhmacher" <bas at healthcare.com>
Subject: Homebrew clubs on CO Western Slope?

Hey brewers, 

Anyone know if there's a brew club on the Colorado Western Slope?
Grand Junction is the nearest city of any size (hey, they have a mall
;-)).  I'd like to meet/learn/brew with others.

Thanks,

Bret
Bad Dog Brewery 
Montrose, CO
- --
I'd like to meet the guy who invented beer and see what he's working on now.


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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 09:36:33 -0400
From: Tom Clark <rtclark at eurekanet.com>
Subject: Natural Gas Conversions

If you are considering a quick disconnect for a gas line, be sure it is 
designed for flammable gas and has a built in shut off when 
disconnected.  I have heard of people trying to use quick disconnects 
designed for compressed air. Don't do it! These devices nearly always 
leak. 

An excess flow valve somewhere close to the gas source would be nice as 
well. (In case the line or hose gets cut or broken this valve will stop 
the flow af gas.)  

Also, a shut off valve designed for gas service should be designed to 
continue to control the flow of gas even if it is involved in a a fire 
where the valve may get hot enough to damage its internal seals.  In 
some cases it is important that the valve be installed with the correct 
orientation in regards to the direction of flow in order for this heat 
failure design to work properly.

BTW - Natural gas usually has about 1000 btu's/ cubic foot.... 

Just thought I better put in my two cents worth before someone has to 
sift through the ashes...


Tom Clark



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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:54:07 -0400
From: "Timothy Green" <TimGreen at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: Old Wyeast Pack

Peter Ryan writes:

Can't locate an email address for Wyeast so that I can tell what I think of
selling stock to a consumer 14 months after manufacture particularly when
one of the four keys to successful fermentation is listed on their pack as
"use the freshest yeast possible". Does anybody have an email address  for
Wyeast?

I don't have an email address, but their web site is
http://www.wyeastlab.com

Tim Green

Mead is great...
Beer is good...
(But beer is much faster)




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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:23:31 EDT
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Fridge & Chiller

Mark Tumarkin scores a small fridge and asks:

"I was recently given an old apt. or office size fridge. It is a Norcold
Mod. E-200 WA. It is quite small. Too small to hold a carboy (or even very
many bottles!), so I have been considering using it as the cooling source
for a fermentation chiller based on Ken Schwartz's plans."

You could build a Chiller-type box completely surrounding the fridge (the cold
side of it anyway) if it's small enough.  Or, you could modify or replace the
door, adding a goes-inta and a goes-outta port, with a thermostat-controlled
fan and flexible (and insulated) ducting to circulate cold air through the
Chiller.  Set the fridge to "normal" temperature and let the fan blow cold air
to the fermenter as needed.  This way you can still stash a few bottles of
homebrew in there.

*****
Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KenyyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy


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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:22:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Wyeast dates; candy-like flavor; unboiled kits

Peter Ryan writes concerning Wyeast packs:

> Picked up a Wyeast smackpack of 2042 from my local brewshop only to
> discover after I had activated the pack that the date of manufacture was
> stamped at 6APR97.It is now June  98!!!!!.Yeast is 14 months old.Surely
> there must be some legal or moral obligation of the manufacturer to have
> a useby date stamped on the package.

Cheeze, mon, they've got the date of manufacture stamped right on the end
of the pack!  (The "born-on" date?)

Your local brewshop has a moral obligation to let you know you're getting
old yeast, but probably no legal obligation.  In the end, you as the
consumer have to check package dates, just as you do with milk and meat
(you do, I hope, grocers mess up sometimes).

There isn't really an expiration date for Wyeast -- most people would avoid
packs older than (say) six months old, but people have brewed successfully
with year-old smack packs.  I hope you didn't just trash the pack.  See if
if it swells up in a few days.

 - - - - - - - -
Marc Battreall writes in his note on Open Fermentation:

> Two weeks later came the taste test. It had a pleasant flowery hop aroma
> from the Goldings. However there was an overriding candy like, raisin like
> aroma that plowed through the hop nose. The flavor was also along those
> lines too.

Have you used Goldings before?  I find it very candy-like.  Raisiny?  I
dunno, maybe from esters?  I don't *think* Goldings has that note in it,
but I didn't care for it so I haven't used it again.

> The hop bitterness was present, but didn't seem to show up until
> about 5 seconds after each swallow. I am not an expert judge by any means,
> but I feel that perhaps this could be a touch of diacetyl.

Beats me, but I've never heard this described as a result of diacetyl.

 - - - - - - - -
Brad McMahon wrote (quoting me):
>
> > Did you ask him about getting hot and cold break?  I know that some
> > kits are just malt extract.
>
> Which ones?
> You should be using known high quality kits from Europe or
> Australia. These kits are made properly.
>
> I haven't heard of a manufacturer that DOESN'T boil their kit
> during manufacturer. It still is the best way of bittering.

I was running on old data.  I still suspect that some of the cheap-o kits
are malt extract with hop extract/oil added.  I now know how the major
manufacturers like Brewferm and Coopers make their kits, so thanks.

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Multi-part MIME message: " ", " ", " " (hands waving)
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:18:27 -0400
From: Herbert Bresler <bresler.7 at osu.edu>
Subject: old Wyeast smack packs

>From HBD #2734
Peter Ryan <tilook at amaze.net.au> writes:
G,day fellow HBD's,
Picked up a Wyeast smackpack of 2042 from my local brewshop only to
discover after I had activated the pack that the date of manufacture was
stamped at 6APR97.It is now June  98!!!!!.Yeast is 14 months old.Surely
there must be some legal or moral obligation of the manufacturer to have
a useby date stamped on the package.Can't locate an email address for
Wyeast so that I can tell what I think of selling stock to a consumer 14
months after manufacture particularly when  one of the four keys to
successful fermentation is listed on their pack as "use the freshest
yeast possible".does anybody have an emaail address  for Wyeast.???
Thanks..

My reply:
It seems to me that it's the shop owner's responsibility to not sell
outdated stock, and your responsibility to check the date before you buy
(caveat emptor).  Wyeast has no control over who might sell (or buy) their
product and when.  But having said that, it may not matter --- read on.

About 6 months ago, one of the local brew shop owners was moving to a new
location and found an old Wyeast pack that had been lost in the bottom of
one of his refrigerators.  The yeast was over a year old (I think it was a
Kolsch yeast, and actually was almost two years from packaging date).  Just
to see what would happen, he smacked it.  It grew.  It took a little longer
to get going, but it grew as firm and swollen as any fresh pack.  He was
not intending to brew from it, but I'm not sure that it wouldn't have
worked.  I have brewed perfectly good beers from yeast I've recovered from
the bottoms of bottles that were on the shelf longer than 14 months.

So, did your 14 month old smack pack grow?  Did the starter culture grow
and taste ok?  Did you brew with it?  Did the batch turn out ok?  Once you
have all those answers, maybe you'll want to send an e-mail to Wyeast
congratulating them on the incredibly good shelf life of their product.

Good luck and good brewing,
Herb
Columbus, Ohio

P.S.  In general, it seems that we who read and contribute to these pages
are too swift to condemn, and too impatient and uncharitable to give the
benefit of the doubt.  I would like to see more helpful tips and
educational discussion here.  We could do with less condemnation and
placing blame.  -HB




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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:29:24 +0000
From: Ed Choromanski <choroman at voicenet.com>
Subject: Re:  small fridge fermentation chiller

Mark:

I also have recently gotten hold of a mini-fridge (exterior dimensions are 19" x
19" x 19", pretty small).  I do not have a basement and was looking at making it
into a cooling source for my fermentors/kegs.

I have not talked to anyone about this but here are my ideas:

1.  Probably need to get an external temp controller due to temp window of
internal control and cooling capacity of the fridge vs thermal mass of the
fermetor.  This is assuming that when I put the built in temp control to coldest
setting, the compressor will always be running (needs to be verified).

2.  Get some small fans (from an old pc or wherever) to evenly distrubute the
cool air.  May need to build a small baffle for good air circulation.

3.  Go to a home center (Home Depont, Builders Square, etc.)  and get the
highest R-value exterior foam stuff (I don't know the correct name for this but
it typically goes on the outside of the exterior plywood.  Sometimes it has a
silver coating).  Use this to build the area where the fermentor/keg will be
placed but also extend this to encase the sides of your mini-fridge (note: do
not cover up the compressor and heat exchanger on the back and remove the front
door of the fridge).


I am not sure how good this setup will work.  I would expect that it will be
slow to reduce the temp of the fermentor in general (you could add some ice,
just like Ken's plans, to give it a boost).  Though, I would not expect to be
able to do any real lagering but it might be good for aging of some ales (cellar
temps ~55 F).  In the end, if I all I can use it for is fermenting then I just
extended my brewing season by 3~5 months (depending on Mother Nature).

If you get any good ideas I would appreciate it if you could pass them along to
me.

Regards,
Ed


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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:53:25 -0400
From: "Victor Farren" <vfarren at smtp.cdie.org>
Subject: De-leading brass/sparge water/Moving Brews/used refrigerator

Hi everyone, I just re-subscribed to the digest after a prolongated 
absence (didn't have e-mail).  It is great to see that there is still a 
lot of useful information being posted.  I have a few questions for the 
collective:

I know there is a way to de-lead brass by soaking it in lemon juice and 
hydrogen peroxide, but I don't know what proportions to use or how long 
to soak.  Does anyone know what they are?  I want to de-lead my brass ball 
valves.


I just finished brewing a 10 gallon batch over the weekend.  I use a Gott 
cooler and two converted kegs for my boiler and sparge vessell.  I had a 
hard time keeing the sparge water at 168-170 F because I only have 1 
burner (which was underneath the boiling kettel).  The question is, how 
important is it that the sparge water be at 168F?  I estimate that the 
sparge water dropped a good 10 degrees by the time Iwas done sparging.  Is 
this a big deal?

I want to buy a pump that can handle hot liquids.  I saw a post that gave 
the website of Moving Brews.  I went to the site and found what I need and 
more!  What is it like dealing with them?  I imagine the person who 
posted the site thinks well about them, but I want to make sure.

Does anyone know of a place to get used refrigerators in the Washington DC 
area?  Is anyone looking to get rid of one?  I want to buy a refrigerator 
to keep my kegs cold.  There is nothing worse than kegging during the 
summer when you can't control the temperature fluctuations.

Victor


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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:18:42 EDT
From: KESimmonds at aol.com
Subject: Re: Open Fermentation - Homebrew Digest 2734

I was somewhat bemused on reading Marc Battreall's posting on open
fermentation.
First, making a British Pale Ale, why did you need to perform a 3 step mash? A
simple infusion mash is all that's needed with this type of beer. Could this
have led to your 'candy, raisiny' aroma and taste? Second, whilst I appreciate
that you wished to investigate the top fermenting properties of the yeast,
there are only two reasons to skim the brew: (1) It's climbing over the top of
the fermentation bin, and the wife doesn't understand these things. (2) You
want to keep some yeast for another brew. Other than those, leave it alone,
it's as happy as a pig in muck in its warm sweet wort! Your fermentation times
seemed extremely protracted. I usually reach quarter gravity in around 3 days,
and run into the barrel a day later. As a confirmed 'open fermenter', I'd be
interested in reading your 'cons' against the practice. There's nothing
difficult about it, no need to bubble oxygen through the wort, etc.
Re Al Korzona's comments on Fullers Summer Ale, with 3 differing tasting
experiences. As a cask conditioned ale, in the UK, according to CAMRA
(Campaign for Real Ale) guidlines, once opened, the barrel should not have any
external CO2 gas applied to it. Thus, if the tasters went in on different
days, with the same barrel in use, the taste of the beer would vary due to the
action of oxygen on the beer. Although a member of CAMRA, I, and many others,
are bitterly opposed to this ruling, and believe that cask-breathers, which
allow low pressure CO2 to enter the cask as beer is drawn off, should be
permitted.
Hoppy brewing,
Keith


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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 14:28:59 -0400
From: "Victor Farren" <vfarren at smtp.cdie.org>
Subject: What leads to the creation of higher/fusel alcohols?

I brewed a Pale Ale over the winter that ended up with a lot of higher 
alcohols.  It packed a mean headache the day after, even if I only drank 
one or two.

I live in a group house and we were trying to cut down on the gas bill so 
we would turn the heat off during the night and would not turn it back on 
until we got back from work the next day.  Can the fluctuation in 
fermentation temperature lead to the formation of higher alcohols?  The 
fermentation temperature probably fluctuated 3 every 24 hours.  The other 
issue is that when the heat was turned up it was REALLY turned up.  I know 
all of this wasn't good for the yeast and I am thinking it was the 
reason for the headache beer.  Am I on track?  Is there something else I 
should be looking at?  

The beer was all-grain, mashed for 1/12 hrs at 155-52 w/ an OG of 1.060 
and a FG of 1.012, fermented with Wyeast 1056.  Primary fermentation was 
about 4 days and it sat in the 2ndary for about 2 weeks before I bottled 
it.

Thanks

Victor


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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:59:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fred Waltman <waltman at netcom.com>
Subject: Old Wyeasts


Peter Ryan got an old Wyeast and is upset:

I'm not sure that your anger is properly directed -- while Wyeast doesn't
have a "use by" date they do have a "mfg date" (dare I say "born on" 
date) -- which you obviously know about since you know the yeast is
14months old (as an aside -- I regularly use 12-18month old Wyeasts with 
no problems -- it just takes time and a starter.) Unless you bought the 
yeast directly from Wyeast I would say they have no resposibility in the 
matter.

Should you be upset with the retailer? As a retailer myself I am biased. I
do try and check the dates on Wyeast that customers buy, but sometimes
things are busy and I don't. Most of my customers know to check the dates
themselves. And I do try an cull 6 month and older Wyeasts into the
"bargin bin." But sometimes an old one gets out the door. If a regular
customer (or a nonregular customer with a receipt) brings me an old yeast
unpopped I will exchange it for a fresher one. If it has been popped then
it is more of a problem, but I have exchanged them. 

So check with the store you bought if from, they may replace it or give 
you a discount on a replacement. And in the future, check the date before 
you leave the store.

Fred Waltman
Culver City Home Brewing Supply (Los Angeles area)
fred at brewsupply.com   *or*   waltman at netcom.com
http://www.brewsupply.com
"You can make better beer than you can buy."



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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:17:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Stephen Harrington <sjharrington at yahoo.com>
Subject: Size Matters

Following the advice of *every* billboard in LA, I decided to try my
hand at a BIG Beer.  I brewed on Saturday and ended up with a OG of
1.092.  I usually don't bother with taking readings, and just let the
batch go until activity has ceased.  My question is, how does one
determine what the FG should be?  I'm concerned that if activity
stops, the beer might not be finished and I will have to pitch in some
Champagne yeast.  Comments?

- --Stephen Harrington
  Manhattan Beach, CA




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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 11:53:00 -0500
From: "Humphrey, Patrick at prdapp65" <patrick.e.humphrey at abbott.com>
Subject: Old Wyeast Packs

In HBD 2734 Peter wrote...

>Picked up a Wyeast smackpack of 2042 from my local brewshop only to
discover after I had activated the pack that the date of manufacture was
stamped at 6APR97.It is now June  98!!!!!.Yeast is 14 months old.Surely
there must be some legal or moral obligation of the manufacturer to have
a useby date stamped on the package.<

I think this is the retailers problem and not Wyeast's.  It is up to the
retailer to either discount or discard the older yeast.  While I was in
California on a business trip in January, I stopped in a local brewshop
to
pass some time.  He had some old Wyeast packs marked down or available
for
free since the dates were very old.  I picked up about 8 different packs
free and haven't had a problem with any of them.  One pack was from
December of 1996 and it started within 2 days of smacking it.

I wouldn't let the date of the yeast pack worry you.  As long as there
is
at least one live yeast cell in the pack you can still use it. Granted,
one
yeast cell *could* have some kind of mutation that *might* cause some
different flavor profile but it is unlikely.  Obviously, we want to have
a
large number cells to maintain consistancy of the flavor profiles.  I
always
make a starter from the Wyeast pack anyway just to boost the population.


I keep some of my yeasts on malt extract agar slants and also in sterile
water for long term storage.  I consider the packs as a good long term
storage method for the yeasts.


Good brewing,

Pat Humphrey
Microbiologist
Lindenhurst, IL 


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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:20:51 -0700 
From: "Fortes, Jim R" <JRF7 at pge.com>
Subject: SS Conical Info

Hi all, about a month or so ago I posted looking for information on where to
get a 1BBL SS conical fermenter. Well I got a lot of good information but to
this point I have not been able to locate such a beast, well at least
without having to get a second mortgage. Here is some of the info I
received:

>From Joe Rolfe, [JRolfe at mc.com]
"Pierre Rajotte in Montreal builds custom size tanks for a reasonable price,
but probably not the price your looking for. These would be in $2K range.
These are complete with valves and fittings. You might find some less than
conical tanks in a junk yard, but tanks like that in good shape are fairly
hard to find. If your want to move up to 4bbl size I have four I would sell
you for about $2k each."

I have looked at the junk yards but you need to be careful what you buy. One
owner of a scrap yard warned me about using a tank that may have been used
for something toxic, he was not sure if it could be sufficiently cleaned to
be used for beer.

Troy Hagar thager at bsd.k12.ca.us] suggested using the heavy duty plastic
conicals you see in most of the home brewing magazines. He says he has been
using them for some time and has no problems. They are the ones that are
built with the thicker plastic. 

Dave Mercer, [dmercer at path.org] suggested the 1/2 BBl SS conical sold by
Brewers Warehouse in Seattle http://www.brewerswarehouse.com. Nice but at 2K
a little out of my price range and only 1/2 BBL.

Frank E. Kalcic [fkalcic at flash.net], suggested using the Sabco converted 1/2
keg fermenters with a few modifications. You can check out his system at
http://www.capecod.net/~mduffley/fpage2.htm. The Sabco 15.5 gallon
fermenters start at $300, their 17.5 gallon conical is about the best for
the money out there now at $1395 (still not 1BBL). You can check them out at
http://www.kegs.com.

John S. Thomas [jthomas at iinet.com] recommends a plastic fermenter he sells.
They hold 15 Gallons and sell for $225. 

I have also seen the plastic conicals that cost around $50 with the stand,
valve, etc., only 5-6 gallons and the plastic looks a little thin. 

The final result is that if I want to have a 1BBL SS conical fermenter I am
going to have to shell out big bucks. Most likely the same as for a 2 - 4
BBL. Believe me if I had the room and the money I would do it. The cheapest
solution now would be to buy two of the sabco 1/2 BBL fermenters, no cone
but stainless and the price is doable, about $600 for both. 

As far as plastic goes, it may be a solution for some folks and I have made
some great beers in the old plastic buckets. It's just at this point of my
brewing ventures I would like to use stainless. 

Thanks to all that responded.

Jim Fortes
jrf7 at pge.com





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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 16:55:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: cag17 at cornell.edu
Subject: Ginger Chile brew... am I nuts?

Hello,

I've been toying with the notion of making a beer flavored with ginger
and chile peppers.  Ginger would be the primary flavoring ingredient,
and the chile would add a little bite to brew's flavor.  Maybe
something along the lines of those ginger 'beers' you can find in
specialty supermarkets and spanish grocery stores, but without all the
sweetness.

I'm interested in some opinions on how much chile and ginger would
produce a balanced flavor.  I was thinking 4-6oz ginger and 6-8
roasted jalapenos.  I would start with a relatively plain extract
recipe:

6# Wheat DME (Someone mentioned earlier that this works well in chile
beers)
 .5#Crystal Malt (60L)
 .5-1oz bittering hops (open to suggestions)
Wyeast 1056

I would add the ginger to the boil, and after the primary ferment, add
the jalapenos and maybe a little more ginger to the secondary.

Is the wheat malt a bad idea?  More/less/no crystal or other grains?
more/less/no hops?  A different yeast perhaps?

Do any of you think this would be good, or even just not disgusting?
Before anyone asks why on earth I would want to make something like
this, bear in mind that I _really_ like ginger and chile, and
something tells me they would go well together.

I know I've asked very many questions, but I would appreciate even the
smallest amount of help.  The HBD has helped me
move from being a newbie to a (still inexperienced) brewing addict.
Thanks for all of the great info so far!

Clint
cag17 at cornell.edu


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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:54:25 -0700
From: "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org>
Subject: Stuck ferment

I was so confident. (That was my first error.) A month ago I brewed a
Belgian Strong Ale - 14# of grain, mostly DWC pils, with some Munich
thrown in, all mashed at 151F. 1.5# of candi sugar was added to the
boil. The O.G. came in a little high (1.084) but that's okay - I've
changed my sparging routine and my efficiencies are generally higher,
but less predictable, than they used to be. It will be a while before I
regain accuracy. In the meantime, better too high than too low, I always
say. But I digress...

I oxygenated the wort - 3+ minutes with pure O2 - and pitched the slurry
from a 1.5 liter starter of La Chouffe yeast stepped up from the dregs
of a bottle. After about a 12 hour lag period, which is longer than
normal, the fermentation took off and I had an incredibly explosive,
churning, high kreuzen. I used a wet sweat shirt to keep the temperature
at 68F, which worked pretty effectively. I was so happy. And so
confident. So I went away for three weeks (literally) and when I
returned, things were predictably quiet. I waited another week for the
primary to clear a little more, then racked to a corny keg. When I took
a sample while racking for a gravity reading, my confidence was
shattered: the S.G. was 1.048. It actually tasted great, although
clearly not finished, but I didn't feel like racking again back into a
carboy, and besides, I wasn't sure what I'd do next even if I did. So I
sealed the keg and stuck it away in a cool part of my basement, where it
can sit undisturbed in a relatively stabile mid 60's temperature for
months and months, if need be. My question: This beer needs to drop
another 25 points. I'm willing to wait for 6-8 months, as this beer
(which I've made many times before without problems, I might add) is
really best as a New Year / late winter brew. But is a drop in
attenuation of that magnitude in the secondary realistic to expect
without another infusion of yeast? It's racked off the yeast cake, true,
but there are still billions of yeast cells floating around in there.
I've never had a truly stuck fermentation before, so this is a learning
experience.

Dave in Seattle



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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 17:05:21 -0600
From: Kevin TenBrink <tenbrink at jps.net>
Subject: All grain equip.

First I would like to thank those who mailed me with suggestions for my
trip from Vegas to Napa and Sonoma.....very good info that will come in
handy!

Second-
I recently saw 10 gallon orange rubbermaid cylindrical coolers for 39$
at a discount recreation supply store near my house.  I did not inspect
them closely enough to get part numbers or anything.  I am in the
"research phase" of going to all grain brewing and am wondering if this
is the kind of thing I can do my mashing in and if so if this is a
decent price for this piece of equipment.  If this is indeed what I
need, is there a way to retrofit a different spigot onto these coolers
so that you dont have to hold that push button in the whole time you are
sparging?

Thanks for all the help
cheers
Kevin
Salt Lake City



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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 22:38:30 -0400
From: "Ludwig's" <dludwig at us.hsanet.net>
Subject: old wyeast

> Picked up a Wyeast smackpack of 2042 from my local brewshop only to
> discover after I had activated the pack that the date of manufacture was
> stamped at 6APR97.It is now June  98!!!!!.Yeast is 14 months old.Surely
> there must be some legal or moral obligation of the manufacturer to have
> a useby date stamped on the package.Can't locate an email address for
> Wyeast so that I can tell what I think of selling stock to a consumer 14
> months after manufacture particularly when  one of the four keys to
> successful fermentation is listed on their pack as "use the freshest 
> yeast possible".

you might also have a talk with your local brew shop. Wyeast can't
control how your brewshop handles their stock. Let us know how this
yeast turns out,though. Would be good info to share with the HBD. 

Dave Ludwig
Flat Iron Brewery
So Md


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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 20:39:54 PDT
From: "Jason Gorman" <riverdogbrewery at hotmail.com>
Subject: Just to light

I just made up a batch of ESB and everything came out right except I did 
not use enough malt (extract). 
Full wort boil
5 lbs Ex lt DME 

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