---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  "best" beer (Samuel Mize)
  re:Keg Conversion (Charley Burns)
  Fermentation chiller idea (George_De_Piro)
  Florida beers (KESimmonds)
  re: Rye Pale Ale ("Greg Pickles")
  Big ol' food warmer conversion (Cory Chadwell Page Navigation)
  De-leading Brass Question (John Palmer)
  Re: Cleaning your nightmare ("Ludwig's")
  Blueberries vs. Raspberries (Al Korzonas)
  Dextrins and head retention (Al Korzonas)
  re: 1) Cellar temp again (NAZELROD)
  Michigan State Fair Competition (Spencer W Thomas)
  Large Double-boiler Mash Vessels ("Rich, Charles")
  Re: Refining Starters (Al Korzonas)
  cooler mashtuns (John Wilkinson)
  RE:  Stuck ferment (Belgian Style) (Richard Gardner)
  re: Alternate Bottle Filling Technique - Vacuum (John_E_Schnupp)
  BJCP style (Charles Hudak)
  PrimeTabs (Jason Henning)
  Correction (Clint Thessen)
  Stirring in the priming sugar or NOT (randy.pressley)
  late addition of dark grains ("Taber, Bruce")
  RE:  Old yeast and long lag times (George_De_Piro)
  dubbel recipe questions (Chris Peterson)
  Spores ("A. J. deLange")
  Re: PrimeTabs (Steve Jackson)
  Attitude; Oops; Words of wisdom (Samuel Mize)
  Dehumidifier as fermentation cooler ("Peter J. Calinski")
  RE: Return of the Son of AHA Bashing (STEPHEN G STROUD)


BUZZ's Buzz-Off competition is June 27-28. Information is available at
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rpmattie at voicenet.com. 


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:47:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at ns1.imagin.net>
Subject: "best" beer

Greetings to all, and especially to:

> From: Dave Sapsis <DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov>
> Subject: what is best, tell me tell if you think you know
 ...
> The dry stout that won BHC was
> best for the final round, but not best in the prelim round.  How can
> that be?

It can't be.  People get in trouble by thinking of the beer that won as
the "best" beer, as if this were some concrete characteristic that could
be detected and recognized.  No, the winning beer for a given judging is
just that: the winning beer, not the "best" beer.  The top beers in a
contest are generally like closely-matched teams in a playoff: the winner
of one game isn't necessarily the "best."

I'm basically agreeing with what Dave said -- and suggesting we try to
alter our language to more clearly match the truth of the situation.

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 08:16 PDT
From: caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns)
Subject: re:Keg Conversion

Ed Basgall makes some suggestions to Eric in HBD#2739:

Hi Eric,
In HBD 2737 you asked about converting a keg to a brewpot.........
<snip>
You'll need to get a tool called a Sawzall 
<snip>
Once you have the hole cut out get a short fat (1"x1") grinding wheel
<snip>
If you have access to a person or shop that does SS welding you  can have a
hole drilled in the side, near the bottom and have them weld in a SS 1/4"
nipple.  (I used SS SWAGELOK parts)
You can order a 1/4" SS ball valve from a number of mailorder places (I
used McMaster Carr)
<snip>

Just three comments:

1. Sawzall is a tough one. You will need to find a stainless welder anyway. 
When you do, ask them if they have a Plasma Cutter. The guy that sold me my 
kegs does a lot of stainless scrapping and has one of these cutters. It took 
him 3 minutes to cut the tops out of the kegs and left nothing but some 
stainless dust behind. And he did it for a six pack of homebrew.

2. The one inch grinder is called a die grinder.

3. A quarter inch ball valve is probably less expensive than half inch, but 
will take forever to drain. I put half inch in mine, got all the parts at 
McMaster Carr also (www.mcmaster.com).

Charley

PS - Hi Ed, haven't seen you post in quite a while.



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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:27:50 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Fermentation chiller idea

     Hi all,
     
     I have an idea for a fermentation chiller, but am unsure how well it 
     will work.  I welcome input from all of you that know a thing or two 
     about heat transfer.
     
     I built a cold box that I keep at ~37F (2.8C).  My idea is to keep a 
     reservoir of cold water in the box, with a copper coil running through 
     it.  This coil will be hooked up to another coil outside of the cold 
     box.  This second coil will be immersed in water in an insulated 
     container of some sort (this will be called the "fermentation 
     reservoir").  The fermenters will sit in the water with the second 
     coil.  A pump will circulate the liquid between the two coils.
     
     My hope is to keep the "fermentation reservoir" at about 62F (16C).  
     This is about 15-20F lower than the highest expected ambient 
     temperature.  I guess i could use a thermostat to control the pumping 
     of the liquid to maintain the temperature.
     
     Before I go ahead and build this thing, I figured that I would tap 
     into the collective's knowledge.  My guess is that this will be fairly 
     inefficient, but will it be able to maintain the desired temperature 
     gradient?  How large of a cold reservoir do I need?  How big of a 
     "fermentation reservoir" can I get away with?  Are there any formulas, 
     or do I just have to be courageous and do it?
     
     What refrigerant would be best to use?  Water is safe and easy to 
     clean up, but it does tend to get gross with time.  Should I use a 
     little antifreeze?  My dog will not have access to the area!
     
     Thanks for any info, have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:42:41 EDT
From: KESimmonds at aol.com
Subject: Florida beers

A brewing buddy of mine is going on holiday to Sarrasota, some 50 miles south
of Tampa, and dreading the thought of some of your worse beers. Does anyone
know of any good microbreweries, brewpubs, or decent pubs either in the area,
or along the Gulf coast of Florida?
Please e-mail replies direct to me, only within the next 2 -3 days.
 <A HREF="KESimmonds at aol.com">KESimmonds at aol.com</A> 


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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:38:42 -0700
From: "Greg Pickles" <gregp at wolfenet.com>
Subject: re: Rye Pale Ale

In HBD 2738 Charley Burns brought up some questions about a Rye beer he has
brewed. I brew a Rye that is generally very well received so I thought I'd
throw in my $.02 worth.

I usually go for a little less bitterness (low to mid 30's IBU) but for the
warmer months 40 is reasonable for a more refreshing brew. I have been
using only malted Rye, no flaked, at about 15% of the grist. It's more than
a lot of people use but it produces a beer in which the rye is right up
front in the flavor profile.

I typically mash at a slightly lower temp (151 - 154F), especially at this
time or year. This results in a more fermentable wort and the beer
typically finishes about 1.010 (OG 1.055 - 1.060). I get a nice, crisp
finish which makes it a great summer beer. (I know a lot of you probably
think it is too late to be brewing summer beers but out here in the great
Pacific Northwest, we are just beginning to think spring has arrived!) At
other times of the year, I will sometimes shoot for a slightly higher FG
which gives me a beer that goes well with cooler weather.

Your cold break definately comes from the rye. I get 2 - 3x the break (hot
and cold) when I brew rye vs. a similar beer without rye. As I understand
it, rye is similar to wheat in the amount of protein it contributes to the
wort. Because of the increased protein contribution, this beer can have a
slight chill haze problem. I have tried a protein rest (20 min at 135F) to
deal with it but I was not happy with the results - the head and head
retention on this beer are usually outstanding but when I used the protein
rest they were not as good as I thought they should be. I have gone back to
no protein rest and fine and filter if I want a really clear beer.

Since I often do not know when I'll be able to brew more than a day or two
in advance, I frequently don't have time to make a starter. I usually use
Nottingham dry yeast in this beer and ferment at about 65F. This is a very
clean, neutral fermenter which works well in this beer.

Hope this helps.
Greg Pickles, Seattle, WA


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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 11:40:47 -0500
From: Cory Chadwell Page Navigation <chadwell at ssd.fsi.com>
Subject: Big ol' food warmer conversion

Hey all,

I recently came into possesion of a large "food warmer" that was previously 
used by a catering company.  It is essentially a huge square gott cooler 
(about 20 gall liquid capacity) without a drain plug.  I'm taking suggestions 
for the best way to use this monster.  A mashtun makes the most sense to me 
but I'd have to install a drain plug and I don't know how difficult that would 
be, if even possible.  Any light that could be shed on this would be 
appreciated.  Any other suggestions for clever ways to use this bad boy would 
also be appreciated.

Thanks, private emails are fine.
Cory

chadwell at ssd.fsi.com




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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:08:58 -0700
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: De-leading Brass Question

Al asked in regard to the De-leading Brass post:
> >The brass will turn a buttery gold color as it cleans. If the
solution
>>turns blue, then the copper is dissolving which exposes more lead to
the
>>surface, and you have to start over again with a fresh solution.

>It's this last part that has me confused.  If the solution turns blue
>and more lead is exposed, why wouldn't the lead continue to be removed
by
>the existing solution?

This is a good question, and although I knew the reason on Saturday when
I read it, I had to wait til Monday morning when I could call my chemist
friend who had initially worked with me on the procedure.
The short answer is solubility limits and chemical activity loss of the
solution (which is redundant). Here is how the solution works:
1. The Hydrogen Peroxide forms Lead Oxide which is soluble in the weakly
acidic solution.
2. Copper Oxide is also soluble in weak acid solutions, while Copper is
not, thus the brass brightens as it cleans.
3. The solution does not have a lot of H2O2 in it, and H2O2 is unstable.
As PbO2 is formed the H2O2 turns to water.
4. Meanwhile, the Cupric Acetate starts forming, which has the blue
green color. The formula for this is Cu(C2H3O2)2*CuO*6H2O, it's a
complex.  I'm sorry, I don't know the conditions for its formation.
5. However, with the formation of Cupric Acetate, the solution is no
longer weakly acidic, so that the PbO2 is no longer dissolved and any
leftover OH causes the formation of CuO and Pb2O which are black and not
soluble in water.

To the best of my knowledge, this is how the de-leading solution works.
Solution chemistry is not my strong suit. Perhaps Dave Burley with his
P-Chem background could fill in any gaps.

John Palmer - metallurgist
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy  http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/
PS:  Rev. E of How to Brew Your First Beer* is now up with some added
information and illustrations.
*the free beginner's document



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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:36:18 -0400
From: "Ludwig's" <dludwig at us.hsanet.net>
Subject: Re: Cleaning your nightmare

John Palmer said regarding cleaning new copper plumbing:

> It depends on what type of flux you used. Did you use a petroleum jelly
> based paste, or a clear liquid type? The jelly pastes need to be
> dissolved off with a solvent.  Unless you have access to acetone or
> other industrial solvents, your best bet is high octane gasoline.  Then
> you need to get rid of that! Fortunately, hot water and detergent should
> take care of that with lots of rinsing.
> 
> The liquid fluxes can be washed off with detergents and water.
> 
> For final cleaning, I recommend  white distilled vinegar.
> 
> John Palmer

John,
I used the paste. I'm concerned about the effects of gasoline or acetone
on the plastic (?) seals in the ball valves. They are soldered in place.
Do you think a diluted acetone solution would work ok. Say half acetone
and half h2O and a 5 minute soak followed by a quick rinse. Also, I'm
curious what the significance is of using high octane gasoline. How
about TSP? Acetone scares me a little (though I use it occasionly for
thining epoxy) and gasoline, well, wouldn't have been my first choice
though I used to use gasoline as a solvent religiously back in my dirt
bike days. ;)
Thanks,
Dave L.


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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:16:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Blueberries vs. Raspberries

Tom asks about blueberries versus raspberries in beer.

I've used both and quite a few more.  Blueberries have a very faint
aroma and thus you need to use a lot of them to get a recognisable
character.  At that, blueberry aroma is sort of non-descript so you
may have some trouble identifying the aroma.  I have used as much as
2 pounds per gallon (about 250g per liter) and still the aroma was
just faintly "berry."  Note that this was in a very neutral, pale,
low-bitterness beer.   A blueberry Porter would probably require
5 pounds per gallon!

Raspberries are very powerful.  Here, 1 pound per gallon (about 125g
per liter) in a pale, neutral beer will give a solid aroma and colour.

As for the blend of "woods berries" I have not tried it, but again,
strawberries have a very mild aroma and you would need about 2 pounds
per gallon (about 250g per liter) to get a noticeable aroma.  Blackberries
are weaker than raspberries, but stronger than blueberries.

Al.


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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:43:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Dextrins and head retention

Scott Nichols writes:
>I believe Scott [a different one] is right when he states that dextrins
>can contribute to head retention. Meilgaard writes in Chapter 6 of The
>Practical Brewer, "It is said that the alpha glucans are important for
>foam, body, and CO2 retention", he later continues, "Beer foam appear
>to be caused mainly by neutral "proteins" above 12,000 MW associated
>with carbohydrates and with hops bitter substances." Recall alpha glucans
>are also called dextrins.
> 
>I would also believe the nice head you see sitting on top of a Belgian Ale 
>is supplied by the addition of sugar as an adjunct.

Thanks for the pointer.  I'll look it up tonight.  I do believe you
are mistaken regarding the relationship between sugar and head retention
in Belgian ales.  The sugars typically used by Belgian brewers are
"candi sucre" which is really virtually 100% sucrose.  Since sucrose
is 100% fermentable, there would be nothing left to contribute to head
retention and, in fact, sucrose (as well as other simple sugars) are
foam negative and *reduce* body and mouthfeel.  Finally, an "adjunct"
is defined as a non-enzymatic starch source (like flaked wheat, pearled
barley, potatoes or steel-cut oats).  The long-lasting heads on Belgian
ales (not to be confused with "Belgian Ales" like DeKonnick) are partly
due to the fact that they typically are pretty high in OG (so they have
more of everything) and partly due to the fact that they are carbonated
much higher than most other countries' beer styles.

BTW, the person who said Jazz in 6 was half right!

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:45:38 -0400
From: NAZELROD at tst.tracor.com (NAZELROD)
Subject: re: 1) Cellar temp again

Tim asks:

>
>Due to the lack of any response from my first post, I would like to humbly 
>post my question again about cellar temperature.  I have a 1056 bottled >porter
that has matured a month, and I would like to lay down at least a >case for 3 
months or more to see how it changes over time. My cellar has >remained at a 
constant 68f this spring, and hopefully into the summer. I >don't have enough 
fridge space so I'm stuck with the cellar. 
>Is 68f too warm for an extended conditioning of this beer? Will this temp 
>merely give it a shorter lifespan or will it have no effect at all? >Thanks.
>
>Tim Burkhart,
>Kansas City

I made a porter this past November.  It has been stored in the basement.  I 
liked it best when it was about a month old.  When it was young it had a 
harshness.  This harshness had mellowed by one month.  It gradually changed, not
better or worse just different.  So, give it a try, it will be interesting.  If 
it has problems (HSA, infection, starch, etc.) it will probably deteriorate, 
otherwise it should continue to be enjoyable.

Gary Nazelrod
Silver Spring, MD


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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:29:12 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Michigan State Fair Competition

If you're not in Michigan, page down now!

The 1998 Michigan State Fair Homebrew Competition entry forms, rules,
etc. are on-line at <http://hbd.org/michigan>.  Only Michigan
residents can win, but anyone can enter. :-) Sorry, this is not our
rule, it's set by the State Fair.  Entry deadline is August 7.

Hard copies of the entry packet will be mailed by the end of June to
people who entered the competition last year, Michigan homebrew clubs,
and shops.

Questions should be directed to the competition director,
Stephen Klump, StephenKlump at compuserve.com.


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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:33:23 -0700
From: "Rich, Charles" <CRich at filenet.com>
Subject: Large Double-boiler Mash Vessels

Hi all,

While leafing through The Walter T. Kelley Co, Inc's recent beekeeping
supply catalog (pg 41), I found some great looking 16, 40 and 80 gallon
welded stainless steel *double* boilers for use in honey packaging.
These look to be some of the most interesting off-the-shelf mash-tun
candidate vessels I've run into in a while.  They're made to hold honey
(or mash!) at sub-boiling temps, and can be heated electrically, by
steam or over any hot plate.  A belt+pulley driven 3-blade SS mixing
paddle ala the "Mix-Masher" is also available for the 40 or 80-gal unit
and attaches through the lid.

The boiler part is a conical reservoir covering the bottom and
extending, pointy side up, to about 1/3 of the height.  The boiler has a
1/2" water drain and an external 1" flange for an immersion heater
element.  The tanks come with a 2" drain flange for the main vessel
(glorp valve! [1]).  It might be tricky to put false bottoms in them but
doable, an Easy-Masher(R) style filter, or slotted ring might be better
or else one could simply drain to a separate lauter tun.

Prices:
Cat. No. 202-S KELLEY'S 40-Gal DOUBLE BOILER - 22 ga. Stainless steel,
21" diam. by 29" high, with thermometer.  $215.50.
Cat. No. 202-M Mixing paddle attachment.  $130.00.
Cat. No. 202-C Flat Stainless steel cover.  $18.50.

Cat. No. 203-S KELLEY'S 80-Gal DOUBLE BOILER - 22 ga. Stainless steel,
29" diam. by 35" high, with thermometer.  $255.50.
Cat. No. 203-M Mixing paddle attachment.  $140.00.
Cat. No. 203-C Flat Stainless steel cover.  $23.50.

These are also available as fully jacketed tanks (40-gal $315, 80-gal
$355). 

The 15-gallon tanks don't offer paddles but come with a cover, an
electric 115 volt immersion heater, water reservoir and an adjustable
thermostat (50F to 250F) and comes with a 1" flange or optional 2"
flange ($6).  Price $177.00.

I'd love to hear from anyone who is used one of these for mashing.
Meanwhile, if you are shopping for a bigger mash tun - I like the looks
of these.

Walter T. Kelley Co can be reached at 3107 Elizabethtown Rd. - PO Box
240, Clarkston KY 42726-0240.  Tel: (502) 242-2012.  They are one of the
major suppliers for big operation beekeepers (and hobbyists) and have
been in business 74-years.

[1] Glorp valve, I saw this in "The Buckapound Brewery" in a recent
Brewing Techniques, it's just a big drainhole for evacuating the mash
tun to a lauter vessel or for cleanup.

Cheers,
Charles Rich (Bothell, WA)


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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:38:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Re: Refining Starters

Jeff writes:
>1. When preparing a yeast starter solution, I have often seen it written
>that the (insert your favorite synonym for bodies) of dead yeast make
>excellent yeast nutrient. I make my starters in 1 liter increments. How
>much (slurry from my carboy/yeast from extract can packs) should I add to
>the starter to meet the yeast nutrition needs?

Sorry, I don't know.  I use 0.1 grams/liter of Fermax... oh, alright,
I use a pinch (I used to weigh, but now I just use a pinch).
 
>2. I have also read that yeast should be "started" or stepped up in wort
>solution that matches approximately the gravity/bitterness of the wort in
>the fermentor.

Theoretically, although I never use hops in my starters and have had no
problems.  The fact is that only a very small percentage of all the
microbiota out there are actually sensitive to hops and, frankly, those
that are sensitive to hops won't survive in your *beer*.

> I have also read that a weak glucose solution with yeast
>nutrient is just as effective. I want to avoid having to make a
>wheat-containing starter wort for a hefeweizen starter, or to hugely hop a
>starter for an IPA.

I beg to differ with that assertion.  A glucose solution with yeast
nutrient will result in a large (larger, I've read) yeast mass, but
the resulting yeast may have trouble fermenting other sugars.  Each
class of sugars (I'm not sure if glucose or fructose do, however)
requires its respective enzymes to be utilised by the yeast.  If you
only feed the yeast glucose, they will "forget" how to make the other
enzymes and you will have slow fermentation at least and can have
a stuck fermentation.

> I aerate with an aquarium stone, and when I use wort,
>the foam is a real PITA. What is a good general compromise?

I switched to oxygen.  It foams just as much, but requires a shorter
blast to give the same amount of dissolved oxygen as air.

>3. Should yeast also be propogated at the same temperatures as
>fermentation, or can I put the starter vessel in a warm dark corner of my
>house?

I've read both (that temperature matters and that it doesn't).  You do
have to slowly cool lager starters down to lager temperatures so that
they don't get shocked when they hit the cooled wort.
 
>4. How can an amateur without access to methylene blue decide/determine the
>viability of the yeast on a slant/in the bottom of a bottle of homebrew?

George Fix wrote about this in one of the AHA Conference Proceedings (back
when they used to be books).  I believe it was at the Milwaukee Conference
(1992?).

>5. Are there brewers out there who actually would be willing to "trade"
>slants? I am looking to build a yeast library when I get my ranching skills
>up to snuff, and there is no reason why others can't benefit/help.

Sorry... I've got nothing on slants that is not commercially available from
the Yeast Culture Kit Co (and even those have not been re-streaked in over
two years!).
 
>6. What is the best way to restock beer bullets? I just got a line on an
>autoclave (electric) that might use up quite a few of them. I really want
>to keep my wife AND the autoclave, if it works out.

The best way will vary from SO to SO.  Presumably you know what your SO
really appreciates and this is where you should start.  One thing that
works well is to *PASS UP* a beer event to do something with your SO.
This pays double dividends.


Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 16:58:39 CDT
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: cooler mashtuns

People looking for Gott/Rubbermaid coolers for mash tuns may not realize that
Igloo makes a cylindrical cooler in five and ten gallon sizes that works fine
for a mash tun.  I have a ten gallon Igloo with a 12 inch Phil's Phalse bottom
that has mashed a lot of grain successfully.
Also, these things seem to be seasonal so if you were unable to find one during
the winter, look again now.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:04:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: Richard Gardner <rgardner at papillion.ne.us>
Subject: RE:  Stuck ferment (Belgian Style)

In HBD #2735, David Mercer wrote:
<I oxygenated the wort - 3+ minutes with pure O2 - and pitched the slurry
<from a 1.5 liter starter of La Chouffe yeast stepped up from the dregs
<of a bottle. <snip>. When I took
<a sample while racking for a gravity reading, my confidence was
<shattered: the S.G. was 1.048. It actually tasted great, although
<clearly not finished, but I didn't feel like racking again back into a
<carboy,,,

Definately a bit high, but La Chouffe has an OG of 1.076, so it should be
able to handle your OG, assuming that it is bottled with the fermentation
yeast.  Try stirring up the yeast by agitating you carboy (i.e., give  the
carboy a shake to two).

 <snip> My question: This beer needs to drop
<another 25 points. I'm willing to wait for 6-8 months, as this beer
<(which I've made many times before without problems, I might add) is
<really best as a New Year / late winter brew. 

I've found that many Belgian ale yeasts also need a cold conditioning for
the yeast to flocculate (such as Wyeast 1388 - Duvel).  MJ's The Great Beers
of Belgium (pg 277) says that La Chouffe beers "have a period of cold
maturation in the tank before being filled into Champagne bottles."
Patience is a required virtue of Belgian style brewers.



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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:32:04 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: Alternate Bottle Filling Technique - Vacuum

>Here's a alternative solution: Get a bottling bucket that has a spigot
>at the bottom. No siphon hassles here.

Use a drilled stopper and some tubing.  Jam the stopper into the spigot
(on the inside of the bucket).  Cut the tubing so that is just long enough
to reach the opposite side of the bucket.

When you bottle, make sure the bucket is above the bottles.  For the most
part, the beer in the bucket will drain into the bottles, but and this is
the neat part, when the level of the beer drops below the level of the
spigot, you will be siphoning the last few bottles of beer.

Works for me, and there is rarely ever more that 1/2 cup or less of beer
left in the bucket.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:51:26 -0700
From: Charles Hudak <cwhudak at adnc.com>
Subject: BJCP style

Dennis writes:


>It seems that the Study Guide for the BJCP Exam makes it clear it is
>important to know commerical examples to common beer styles.  My question
>is the various study guides seem to list the brewery at times, and other
>times the name of the Beer.  Which is expected for the exam?

It can be a bit confusing. People will say that Guiness is the style
example for Dry Stout. Do they mean the brewery or the beer? Actually
Guiness makes more than just a stout so it would be incorrect to say
"Guiness=Dry Stout." I think this is where the confusion lies. Nothing is
taken for granted on the exam. If you want to use a commercial example of a
common beer style you should usually recite 'beer, brewery' unless the beer
is named after the brewery in which case you should *still* identify it
more succinctly e.g. "Bass Ale" or "Bass Pale Ale" not simply "Bass".

>Also when dealing with Commercial Styles that have a geographical necessity
>in the name for beers sold (such as Lambic, Kolch, etc.), is it then by
>
>necessity that only those Commercial Styles from that region are looked
>for, i.e. A Kolch-style beer out of its region; or a made-like-a-Lambic
>from Great Britain.

You should only refer to a beer which specifically typifies a style. For
region specific apellations like Lambic, Alt, Rauchbier, Trappist etc. you
should only use as examples, beers which come from that region and thus
conform to style. FWIW Shiner Bock is not an example of a bock (take it
from my experience %0 )

Good luck on the exam. It is no walk in the park but it is a hell of a
learning experience.

C--
Charles Hudak
cwhudak at adnc.com
Living large on the left coast.......



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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:56:43 GMT
From: huskers at olywa.net (Jason Henning)
Subject: PrimeTabs

Kevin Peters (kpeters at ptd.net) on PrimeTabs:

+ I recently saw an advertisement for these.  According to the
+ description, they are 500mg tablets of corn sugar used for
+ bottle priming.  Suggested rate is 2 to 5 tablets per bottle.
+ Has anyone out there actually tried these, and what were
+ the results?

I used them on my HBD Pale Ale Experiment. I added 4 tablets to each
bottle. I used Dave Draper's tables and formulas at the Brewery, scaled
to a 12 oz. bottle and found that my beer should have come in at 2.4
volumes. Since the beer is going to be lab tested for co2, I'll be able
to report back how well it worked.

As far as actually using them, the instructions say "1. Wash hands
thoroughly. Dry with fresh paper towel. Touch only bottles and tablets."
Uhm, yhea, right. I used a 6"x6" piece of heavy weight paper folder into
a 'V' as a chute. I dumped some tabs on a plate, raked four on the chute
with a knife and dump 'em in the bottle. One of those pharmacy trays
might be really handy.

I racked the beer from the carboy to a bucket. Then I filled the bottles
and capped. If I had a second set of hands to handle the racking cane, I
could have eliminated the bottling bucket step and direct filled the
bottles. These tabs'll be handy for the kegger that wants 12 in bottles
and keg the rest.

The hb shop owner said that the tabs would make the beer foam up and to
cap immediately. No foaming problems. I filled about 45 bottles and
capped them as normal.

Cheers,
Jason Henning <huskers olywa net>
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Lacey, Washington

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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 06:52:24 -0500
From: Clint Thessen <cthessen at mdc.com>
Subject:  Correction

Hi Folks,

	Just a correction... the beer was a dunkle weizen the
yeast was wyeast bavarian weizen.  Obviously some sort
of vision/finger/keyboard dysfunction.

See Ya!
Clint Thessen
O'Fallon, MO
(Waiting for the Cards to climb over .500)


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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 8:41:33 -0500
From: randy.pressley at SLKP.COM
Subject: Stirring in the priming sugar or NOT

I've noticed thru friends and the digest that some people stir in their 
priming 
sugar before they bottle.  Everyone I spoke with adds the priming mixture
 to 
the bottling bucket then adds the brew from the secondary  or primary to 
the 
bucket.  I have bottled this way without stirring and have had no 
problems with 
bottle carbonation.  It seems like a needless risk to stir after adding 
priming 
sugar.


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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:52:40 -0400
From: "Taber, Bruce" <Bruce.Taber at nrc.ca>
Subject: late addition of dark grains

	In Tuesday's HBD, Larry Smith stated that he used a late mash
addition of dark grains to his stout and it seems to have resulted in a
smoother, less bitter beer.
	I too have tried this with my Oatmeal Stout.  Back when I was
doing partial mashes I did late additions of the dark malts and the
result was great.  I now make the same recipe all grain but I haven't
used the late additions.  I mash the total grain bill together.
	It seems that the bitterness associated with the dark grains
acts similar to the bitterness of hops.  In other words, a short mash
will give you the flavor and colour but not the bitterness.  Of course
you will miss some of the starch conversion of the dark grains but you
can simply add a bit more pale malt to compensate.  
	Any opinions on this?

Bruce Taber
Almonte, Ont. Canada


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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:36:08 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: RE:  Old yeast and long lag times

     Hi all,
     
     The recent rants of certain people have made this disclaimer 
     necessary:  the following post involves talking about off flavors and 
     aromas which some readers may find controversial.  If you believe that 
     nothing you do can hurt your beer, *page down now*:
     
     David describes his experiences growing up some really old yeast.  The 
     lag time was quite lengthy in his starter.  He wonders about the cause 
     of this, and tells us that he has read about surviving spores.
     
     I don't know much about the conditions that will cause Saccharomyces 
     to sporulate (is there a microbiologist in the house?), but the 
     explanation is similar, with or without spores.
     
     Almost all of the yeast in the sample was dead.  You pitched it into 
     some wort, and it eventually grew.  Why did it take so long?  Because 
     you were severely underpitching.  Only a few cells were viable.  These 
     had to reproduce for a while before they reached a population large 
     enough to cause noticeable activity.  The few surviving cells were 
     probably in really poor shape, too.  Maybe even mutated from their 
     original form.
     
     A long lag in your starter is not inconsequential.  In fact, that is 
     probably the most important stage of yeast culturing with regards to 
     keeping things clean and "by the book."  Unless you were working in a 
     nearly sterile (yes, sterile) environment, other bugs are in there 
     competing with a very small and weak yeast population.  Even a small 
     wild yeast or bacterial presence at that stage will get multiplied by 
     the time you are ready to pitch your production wort.  Pitching it can 
     be disastrous.
     
     If you have an old sample of a precious yeast that you want to save, 
     plating it out or growing it in a very small amount (5 mL) of 
     autoclaved wort is the best way to go.
     
     If you want to try using the yeast that you have, taste the starter 
     first!  If it tastes fine, then you may want to be courageous and give 
     it a shot.  Just be aware of the potential problems.  If the starter 
     is in the least bit off (phenolic, high diacetyl, vegetable-like, 
     etc.), I would not be so bold as to use it (actually, I have been so 
     bold in the past, and have learned that such wrecklessness yields 
     flushable results).  Slight off characters in the starter are usually 
     multiplied significantly in the production wort.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:53:42 -0400
From: Chris Peterson <peterson at ucmg65.med.uc.edu>
Subject: dubbel recipe questions

I have some questions for you all,
	I'm brewing my first belgian dubbel. I have read the classic book on
belgian beers and have decided to base my recipe off one in the book. The
recipe calls for:

9.5 lbs pale
4 oz crystal malt
4 oz brown malt
0.75 lb candi sugar

The recipe says the color should be 14oL. My understanding from reading the
book is that dark candi sugar is used in brewing dubbels.

Here are my questions: He doesnt state what color crystal in this recipe,
or whether the candi sugar is dark or light. It seems to me that if one
used dark crystal, brown malt and dark candi sugar, that this would be
darker than 14oL. Given your expertise, what kind of crystal and candi
sugar does this recipe refer to?

Any info apreciated. private emails ok 







Christopher Peterson
peterson at molgen.uc.edu


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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:59:06 -0500
From: "A. J. deLange" <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Spores

David Lamotte asked about brewing yeast spores. Brewers yeast is an
ascospore but I have always been given the impression that it is rather
difficult to get it to sporulate - i.e. that this never happens in the
brewery but rather only in the laboratory where special media are used
to induce it. It is pretty well known in HBD land that yeast stored
under water or beer for  a year or longer are still viable though the
number of viable cells is a tiny fraction of the number originally
stored. Thus I'm guessing that the starter in question grew from live
cells which, as they were very few in number and starved, took a long
time to grow to a density where the action was visible. I have never
seen an ascus or a spore but then I've never really gone looking for
them.



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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:33:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Jackson <stevejackson at rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: PrimeTabs

In HBD #2741 (June 16, 1998), Kevin Peters writes:

>>>>>
I recently saw an advertisement for these.  According to the
description, they are 500mg tablets of corn sugar used for
bottle priming.  Suggested rate is 2 to 5 tablets per bottle.
Has anyone out there actually tried these, and what were
the results?
<<<<<

I'm just now starting to drink an IPA I primed using a sample of
PrimeTabs given to me by my local brewshop proprietor. I was pleased.
The tabs did their job: the beer is carbonated.

For me, the nicest thing about the Prime Tabs is that I didn't have to
mess around with preparing a priming solution and racking my beer to
another container so the priming solution could be mixed in. As much
as I love brewing, I absolutely hate bottling (and my apartment
doesn't afford me room for kegging). Granted, preparing the bottles is
the bigger hassle than preparing/mixing priming solution, but anything
to shorten the process is fine by me.

Using the tabs was very easy: After the bottles were sanitized and
emptied, I dropped the appropriate number into each bottle (3 for 12
oz., 6 for 22 oz.) Then I siphoned the beer into the bottles.

A few "warnings" about Prime Tabs' use (most of these are echoed on
the information sheet that comes with them). Make sure your beer is
flat. The tabs provide nucleation sites, and you'll get some foaming.
My beer was fairly flat, but I still foamed a bit. Nothing major, and
nothing that caused me to lose volume in the bottle. I was just left
with a foam ring in the neck for a few days that disappeared as the
beer conditioned. Because of the foaming potential, don't drop the
tabs into a full bottle of beer.

The result was exactly the level of carbonation I expected for the
amount I used (according to the info sheet, 2 tabs per 12 oz. will get
you a "cask-conditioned" level of carbonation, 3 oz. a low-to-middle,
and 4 or 5 tabs a fizzy beer), with a nice, quick head formation that
sticks around a while. I'm not going to use them for every batch (I
need to do something with that 3 pound bag of corn sugar I just
bought), but I will almost certainly use them again.

 -Steve in Indianapolis




 
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:32:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at ns1.imagin.net>
Subject: Attitude; Oops; Words of wisdom

> From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
> Subject:  Attitudes
> 
> What particularly annoys me is the
> attitude of a few individuals who think it is their sole responsibility in
>life
> to respond to every question posted in the HDB.  Like it is their job or
> something.  I don't know how many times I've have read a post that
> begins like this: 
> 
> "Sorry I haven't been able to get to all of your posts lately.  I've been on
> vacation (busy at work, in the hospital, whatever).  I will try to answer all
> of the posts over the next few days, so please be patient........"
> 
> Like anyone gives a rats *ss.

By Ghu, you're right.  Let them wait in the dark.  If they realize they'll
get help eventually, they'll just ask another question.  In fact, we
shouldn't answer their questions at all.  Can't they read books?

So folks, remember: never apologize, never explain.  And none of us here
cares about your personal life.  You don't have to explain why you're
responding to antique threads: you have Paul's permission.

> All of the head bashing from those up on high causes homebrewers to
> believe that they cannot possibly brew good beer and that all of their
> hard efforts will be rewarded with crummy beer.

This would be more convincing if it were ever raised after a newbie was
told to do a bunch of hard things.  No, it's generally raised after a
hard-fought debate between long-term, hard-core hobbyists has made it
clear that there are opinions on both sides of the issue.

> It is not the information that I dispute, it's the delivery.  

So we shouldn't warn people about possible problems, even if we're right?
Or are you suggesting that we should censor our discussions among
ourselves in case the "children" are listening?

> I have impeccable taste and will
> render my personal opinion on your beer.  Also, please enclose a check
> for $200 dollars with each sample

Take your unsolicited commercial email elsewhere, you dirty spammer.

 - - - - - - - - - -
> From: Anthony Capocelli <acapocelli at pol.net>
> Subject: Oops !

[siphon mishap story]

> Question, is there anyone else as dopey as I ?

Well, Tony, we all have accidents like that.  However, as far as admitting
them in a public, archived forum...  :-)

When I brewed an herb beer for the Bluebonnet Brew-Off, I did at least
realize before I sealed the fermenter that I hadn't added the herbs...
I had to re-boil part of the wort with them, after chilling it all.....
There, now there are two of us.........

Oh no, I've come down with perioditis (Gump syndrome)..........................

 - - - - - - - - - -
> From: Bill Giffin <billg at ctel.net>
> Subject: Words of wisdom  
> 
> "Sour flavors - Don't blame the products, Face up to the fact that your
> procedures are not sanitary enough.  Bacteria infections often enhanced by
> warm brewery temperatures, and sluggish fermentiations is to blame for sour
> beer. "
> 
> Isn't that advice just wonderful?

Bill, who are you quoting -- Frank Boon?  Is it wrong?  I don't understand
your point.

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/




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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:12:16 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Dehumidifier as fermentation cooler

I recently "liberated" a dehumidifier.  It has all the working parts that a
fridge does but the principle of operation is different.  In a fridge, they
cool a confined space with little (preferably no)air circulation except
within the space.  In contrast, a dehumidifier wants to pull the maximum
volume of air past the evaporator coil.  As a result, I am having a problem
getting the heat from the space I want to cool over to the evaporator (Or
if you prefer, getting the "cool" from the evaporator coil to the wort.)

Note:

The evaporator is constructed of about 3/8" aluminum tube shaped like a
flat coil.  It is about 9" high by 9" wide but flattened to about 2".

End of note

One alternative is to bond a thermal mass to the coil to increase the
effective surface area.  I will use this method if I decide to build a
"fridge".

The other alternative I am considering (and need help with) is just cooling
the fermenter.  Perhaps covering it with a "blanket" and somehow getting
the "cool" inside the blanket.

Can anyone point me to methods of doing this?

TIA

Pete

PCalinski at iname.com



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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:02:17 -0400
From: STROUDS at POLAROID.COM (STEPHEN G STROUD)
Subject: RE: Return of the Son of AHA Bashing

Hi All, 

In HOMEBREW Digest #2741 Tue 16 June 1998, "Mark S. Johnston"  
<msjohnst at talon.net> said:

>  This year the problem [with the AHA First Round in the  
>  Northeast] appeared to be that either no one volunteered, 
>  or  the volunteers pulled out. In either case, the 
>  specific  fault of the AHA, as I see it, was in not 
>  lining up a  backup.

>From my viewpoint the problem was the former, not the latter.  

The AHA scheduled a place/date for the First Round judging   
in the Northeast before getting the necessary volunteers.  
Our club was asked to do the organization back in August 
1997 and we gave the AHA an immediate and very clear NO 
(what part of that answer did they not understand?).

Apparently the ensuing 8 months weren't long enough for them 
to find another northeast club to organize the competition.

I find it disturbing that the AHA decided to bash the Worts  
for the AHA's own shortcomings (gotta point the finger at  
someone else I guess).  I sincerely hope that Brian Rezac will 
publicly address this point when he returns to his keyboard.

Steve Stroud
The Boston Wort Processors

(see http://www.wort.org/ for club info) 


CC: Brian Rezac






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---