---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Great Taste, eh? (Robert Paolino)
  Re: End of my career as a brewer? (HSA from mashing/lautering) ("John W. Rhymes")
  RE:"Easy" Technique for OG Measurement? (Tony Barnsley)
  Convert a sausage grinder ("Dave Russell")
  Keg lines too long? (Nathan Kanous)
  re: stinky starter (Dave Whitman)
  re: stinky starter (sadownik)
  Re: basement brewing (Peter.Perez)
  Re: propane basement brewery.... (Joe Rolfe)
  Stability and  bactericidal activity of chlorine solutions (Steve Potter)
  "Stinky Starter" ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Re: Wind Screen Construction ("Mike & Lynn Key")
  Red Seal Ale recipe request ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Preventing excessive foaming while serving from kegs (Dave Humes)
  Kim Chee ("Robert D. Dittmar")
  Chimay Red (Kyle_Druey)
  Re. Metallurgical Question on Converted Kegs/ July 4th Brew (John Palmer)
  re:mash thickness (Charley Burns)
  Prolonged storage of beer at warm temperatures (George_De_Piro)
  PU Opinion/Ammonia ("A. J. deLange")
  Welcome lurkers and new posters! (Samuel Mize)
  Over-carbonated barley wine (Select Group)" <a-emoore at microsoft.com>
  Hop picking/Heart of the Hops/Kubessa/teflon/malto-dextrin (Al Korzonas)
  aerating starters (John Wilkinson)
  RE: basement brewing (John Wilkinson)
  Hitting mash Temps (Mike Spinelli)
  Prolonged storage of beer at warm temperatures -Reply ("LARSONC%DOM13.DOPO7")
  extract choice (JPullum127)
  Im soo sick of trub in my ferment! (Jon Bovard)
  basement brewing (Randy Ricchi)


Have you entered a MCAB qualifier yet?


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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:13:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert Paolino <rpaolino at execpc.com>
Subject: Great Taste, eh?

The 12th Annual Great Taste of the Midwest<sm> is August 8 (second
Saturday in August) in beautiful Madison, Wisconsin.

Many people are already aware of North America's second(?) longest-running
craft beer festival, but are kicking themselves because they didn't buy
tickets on May 1.

Indeed, most years we are sold out by this time.  But we've increased our
attendance cap by more than the usual increment this year, so even though
we've sold as many tickets as we usually do by this time, we still have
some.

Enjoy samples of more than 400 different beers from 90 of the Midwest's
best breweries and brewpubs.  Find out why Wisconsin is the Beer Capital
of the Midwest!

Your $18 admission gets you a beautiful German sampling glass with
multicolour logo and gold rim (I don't wanna hear any snickering about
"milk glasses" just because we're in Wisconsin), detailed festival program
that will serve as a useful beer travel guide after the fest, a shot at a
cool door prize, and as many samples as you can responsibly consume all
afternoon--no steenkin' pay-per-beer or beer tokens.  Sample what you
want, take chances on unfamiliar styles or breweries, and learn about real
beer without fearing that you're wasting another buck. Also, check out the
historical exhibits and talks in honour of the state's Sesquicentennial. 

The Great Taste is THE event for serious beer enthusiasts, and people who
know keep coming back every year in amazement that we keep making it
better year after year!

Ordering:
SASE and check for $18/ticket payable to Madison Homebrewers and Tasters
Guild sent to:
	Great Taste!	
	Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild
	Box 1365
	Madison, Wisconsin  53701-1365

Questions?

Write to GreatTaste at juno.com (not to the address in the .sig)

Now go have a beer,
Bob Paolino                                  rpaolino at earth.execpc.com
Madison
I can taste my beer.  Can you?  Bland Beer is the Worst Sort of Tyranny!
Don't drink bland industrial swill; it only encourages them to make more. 
Great Taste of the Midwest tickets now on sale!



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:26:18 +0000
From: "John W. Rhymes" <jwrhymes at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: End of my career as a brewer? (HSA from mashing/lautering)

In HBD 2754, Michael Kowalczyk commented on Al K's response in HBD 
2745 to Bill Giffin's post on mashing equipment in HBD 2743.  Bill 
pointed out that we can get good results using different equipment.  
In his response, Al pointed out the advantages of a single vessel for 
mashing and lautering, particularly for reduction of oxidation..

Michael said:

> Al, Don't discount a technique simply because you don't beleive in it, or
> have not tried it. I've made 38 beers using a canning kettle as a mash tun
> and a phils phloating bottom.  It requires me to mash and lauter in different
> vessels.  I transfer the mash very carefully and it only takes me a few
> minutes (as Bill writes) to transfer.  I usually mash-out a little higher
> because I know the transfer looses heat.   
> 
> Of the 38 beers I've made, I've had 3 of them after a year and more with what
> I would call (of course I'm not trained at Seibel) no bad taste. Nothing that
> I would call aeration of the mash.  Of these beers I've never dumped one. 
> Not even the one you helped me with (thanks Al..). 
> 

Until recently, I mashed in a pot in my oven and transferred the mash 
to a Zapap (drilled bucket in bucket) lauter tun -- 26 batches using 
that process.  I brewed beers which were well regarded by people 
whose opinions I trust, and which I certainly enjoyed.

I started entering competitions last year and had widely varying 
results.  The same beer -- excellent from the keg in my basement --
would win a ribbon in one competition but receive dismal scores in 
others.  The feedback on the low scoring entries was typically 
consistent with oxidation.

One day, I sat back and looked at my results and recognized the 
pattern.  Every ribbon was from a beer that was hand carried to the 
competition.  Every beer that had been shipped exhibited flaws that 
were not present in the beer kept at home or which was hand 
delivered.

Mechanical agitation and heat -- any energy input -- will greatly 
accelerate oxidation and other adverse reactions in your beer.  If 
you are able to keep your beer in a cool and consistent environment, 
any flaws in the process are less likely to become evident.  If your 
beer is subjected to agitation and heat, any flaws will all too 
quickly become evident.

My experience has been that oxidation effects are not a problem when 
my beers are kept in a controlled environment, but are a definite 
problem when the beer is shipped.  If I were not exposing my beers to 
the stresses of the outside world, oxidation would not be a major 
concern to me and I would be perfectly content with my previous 
process.

Since oxidation is a concern to me, I have evaluated my processes and 
chosen to go to a single vessel to minimize oxygen intake.  You're 
happy with your results, so your process is fine.  I've experienced a 
problem, so I've modified my technique to fix the problem.



John W. Rhymes -- Birmingham, Alabama
jwrhymes at mindspring.com


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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:25:33 +0100
From: Tony Barnsley <Tony.Barnsley at riva-group.com>
Subject: RE:"Easy" Technique for OG Measurement?

Stephen Harrington Writes in HBD #2755

>I brew in a 5 Gal SS pot, chill an ice bath then siphon into my
>fermentor.  I always end up with a hoppy, break riden sludge at the
>bottom of the pot after siphoning, and just toss it.  This time I let
>all the junk settle out, and took an OG reading from the clear liquid.
>Is this a good way to get a representative reading?

I've been doing this for a while now, ever since I got my new boiler.
I tend to get around 1 - 2 Quarts left behind along with all the trub.
This is racked into a 1/2 gallon jug and set in the fridge to clear.
Rack off the clear liquid use 8oz to take the OG and use the rest to
step up a starter. SO far I have had no problems as always YMMV.

If you are that concerned that its not representative, Take a reading
from your wort as well They _will_ (YMMV) be the same, they are in my
case!

Wassail !

Tony, M.i.B (Mashing in Blackpool, Lancashire, UK)




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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 06:59:28 -0400
From: "Dave Russell" <drussel3 at ford.com>
Subject: Convert a sausage grinder

I came into possession of my grandfathers old sausage grinder and was hoping to
use it as a grain mill.  Nostalgia and all.  It is a Merit #15, hand crank with
screw auger, has three removable "plates", first with 1/4" holes, second is
pinwheel shaped with 9 wings, the last with 4 pinwheel wings.  All plates fit a
square arbor.  Using the first plate with the holes pulverized the grain to
flour, the 2nd and 3rd crushed some (10%) of the grain, pulverized some and
missed the most.  Is there anyone with ideas on how to convert this to use as a
grain mill?  Does any catalog sell any interchangeable plates?


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Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 06:37:01 -0400
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Keg lines too long?

Help!  Ever since I started kegging my beer, I've had a little problem.  My
beer foams more than I would like.  I've cut the pressure down to 1 PSI.
Yes, 1 PSI.  I thought my regulator guage was broken because of what it
read and how it looked, so I replaced it.  The new gauge reads 1 PSI.  I
still get foaming.  My fridge is running around 40 deg F.  I haven't built
a temp controller yet (my first is currently in use in an ice box).  The
lines have been cleaned, it happens will all 6 of my kegs.  The only two
things I thought might play a role (what do I know) are the length of the
hoses are too long (pressure drops too much, resulting in foaming) or that
the 90 degree elbow running into my faucets causes too much turbulence.
Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks.
Nathan in Madison, WI


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Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 08:12:47 -0500
From: Dave Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Subject: re: stinky starter 

Jay Spies asks:

>I've noticed that every time that I make a starter in my 2K ml 
>erlenmeyer flask, it has a distictive and very unpleasant ammonia 
>odor when it comes off the boil.  The specifics are 1200 ml water, 
>1.6 cups light DME, 1 tsp yeast nutrient.  Bring to a boil, chill, 
>aerate with O2, add yeast.  Could this smell be from the yeast 
>nutrient?  It's the white, sugary-looking kind, not the tan kind.  

Yeast nutrient is diammonium phosphate, and is almost certainly your
culprit. Heating almost any ammonium salt will generate some ammonia.

At the advice of Steve Alexander, I've been using 0.25 weight% diammonium
phosphate in my starters with very good results.  A crude
back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests that 0.25% DAP in 1200 ml of
water would be about 1/2 tsp.  Try cutting your nutrient in half, and see
if the odor goes down.
- --
Dave Whitman  dwhitman at rohmhaas.com
"Opinions expressed are those of the author, and not Rohm and Haas Company"


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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:46:53 +0200
From: sadownik at delta.sggw.waw.pl
Subject: re: stinky starter

Hi all,

here comes more chemistry...

Jay wonders ( HBD#2755 ) what is a source of ammonia smell evolving from a
boiling starter and rightly points to the yeast nutrient as a possible reason.

Yeast nutrients contain diammonium hydrogen phosphate (NH4)2HPO4 and/or
ammonium dihydrogen phosphate (NH4)H2PO4. These salts formally derive from
weak ammonium base NH4OH and weak/medium strenght relevant phosphoric acids
and as such, in water solution, undergo to some extend a reaction with water 
called hydrolysis.
Ammonium hydroxide NH4OH is here one of the hydrolysis products and it readily
decomposes to ammonia gas NH3 and water H2O, especially when heated.
Ammonia gas NH3 is what finally reaches Jay's nose.
So, everything is normal and OK here. 
In such circumstances I wouldn't boil the starter with nutrient too long and 
add the nutrient late for the last minute of boiling.

Being chemist and homebrewer I was so glad to learn that the most knowledgeable 
beer related institution in USA called itself American Society of Brewing
Chemists !       
[ most knowledgeable just after HBD of course 8-)] 

Andrzej Sadownik
Warszawa, Poland 





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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:46:38 -0400
From: Peter.Perez at smed.com
Subject: Re: basement brewing

I rember seeing questions posted about the safety of brewing in basements,
using a gas fired burner.  Unfortunately, I can't remember any of the
answers from people who actually tried it, only those cautionary responses
about CO levels.  SO, anyone out there successfully brewing with propane in
their basement?  Any suggestions about ventilation or other safety issues?
Thanks
Hans


In response to Hans question about basement brewing.  I have been
successfuly all-grain brewing in my basement for a while now.  I purchased
a carbon monoxide detector and plugged it in reasonably close to my brewing
station.  I have no sliding glass door or large outside opening.  There is
a single window that is a little larger than the ordinary basement size
window.  The window in my basement drops completely open however.  I put a
powerful fan in in the window to ensure good ventilation/circulation.  I
usually do 90 minute boils, and the carbon monoxide detector has not even
gone off once (and yes I did test it to make sure it works).  I have NOT
noticed any of the usual CO side effects (headaches, light-headedness,
etc).  Good luck to you.

Pete




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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:52:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Subject: Re: propane basement brewery....

Hans asked in 7/1 HBD about basement brewing with propane.

yes my brewery was propane based. my suggestion - dont do it - IMHO.


i was brewing rather large batches by homebrew standards
typically 4+bbl, this is a large volume for propane based
burners.  i had two of those rocket engines - no idea how many
btu - plus two 5500W electrical elements 240v. 

electric was used to heat the mashin/sparge water then transfered 
to a grundy. the gas was blasted only during runoff start to 
castout this was about 3-3.5 hrs on average.  

1) tanks left in the house for any time are a problem. use an external 
to the house tank, hard plumbed to a safety controlled burner.

2) fumes are a serious problem at this level. i had several 36" fans
sucking air thru the bulkhead and several others in the cellar windows.
skirting around the flames with a psuedo stack to one of the outgoing fans.
still not enuff...i had headaches (might have been from other things too;).
all together we had done about 200 (combo 2bbl/4bbl) batches.  this
was way to long.....  beware that you will pull a lot of unwanted
visitors into the brewing area with this venting. i probably should have
sprung for a co detector, but i was a poverty stricken commercial wannabee.
my wife was usually around whilst the brewing was going on and never 
detected any fumes in the upstairs, but the wort and hops could be
smelled throughout the neighborhood.  

i am quite sure that with the proper equpiment and smaller volumes this
be done in a safe fashion. safe == more expensive in most cases. when
we moved to better space, we did spend about $2500/tank for brick skirting
proper size power vent stacks, safty controls, electrics, permits and plumbing.
for a small set up of the legal 1/2bbl kegs size;) you could spend
$200-$500 for proper installation.  anything less could cost you more
later.  my gas guy did not want to touch those burners most home
brewers use. 



good luck and great brewing....
joe rolfe



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Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 09:23:46 -0500
From: Steve Potter <spotter at MERITER.COM>
Subject: Stability and  bactericidal activity of chlorine solutions

Dear collective,
An article crossed my desk today that I thought might be of some interest
to those who use bleach to disinfect brewing equipment.  It is in Vol 19
No. 5 of Infection Control and Hospital Epidemiology and the article's title
is the same as this post.  To quote the abstract, the objective of the
study was "To determine the stability of sodium hypochlorite (diluted
household bleach) when stored for 30 days in various types of
containers and to test the efficay of low concentrations of free available
chlorine to inactivate test bacteria."

The "cut to the chase version" of their results is as follows:
The best chlorine stability was acheived by storing it in closed brown
containers - 97% of the original free available chlorine (FAC)
concentration remained after 30 days.  Even storing it in an open
container yeilded 46% remaining concentration of FAC.

They also found that the lowest concentration of available chlorine that
would reliably inactivate S aureaus, S choleraesuis, and P aeruginosa
was 100 ppm.  FWIW, they acheived 475 initial FAC at pH 9.2- 8.2 at a
1:00 dilution.

Based on their data, they are saying that daily preparation of bleach
solutions is not necessary to ensure biocidal activity.  As always,
YMMV.

Steve Potter
Madison, WI    


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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:50:20 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: "Stinky Starter"

Jay Spies asks if his yeast nutrient could be giving an ammonia smell
to his starters; yes it is most likely the cause. The dose listed is
1 teaspoon for 1200 ml, that is perhaps a bit excessive. The typical
dose on the simple yeast nutrients is 1 tsp/gallon, at that dosage
for a starter of 1200 ml volume the proper amount would be just under
1/3 tsp., dropping to this amount would help minimize the odor. The dose
of DME is a bit more than I'd expect; Dave Logsdon of Wyeast recommends
5 to 6 Plato for yeast starters, this gives greater cell enumeration.
This would be 60-72 grams, about 1/2 cup of DME. This at first seemed
counterintuitive to me knowing that yeast multiply to a population of
1 million cells per degree Plato per milliliter, so a 1/2 density wort
would produce 1/2 the yeast population, when I tried this method I did
find that I got greater volumes of yeast in a shorter time. This was
just a visual observation, not an actual count with a hemocytometer, but
since I only work with 3 yeast strains and they all displayed the same 

behavior I don't think the volume increase was due to flocculation 

characteristics.  Since I want my starters to produce high kraeusen
quickly and produce lots of yeast I stick with this method; and besides
I use 1/2 the amount of DME for starters. 


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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:12:16 -0400
From: "Mike & Lynn Key" <flakeys at ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Wind Screen Construction

My windscreen was an 18-inch wide piece of aluminum flashing which I riveted
into a tapered cone. The taper is narrow at the top and flares near the
bottom. When properly done it should extend no more than two inches below
your kettle. The bottom flare keeps the flashing away from direct contact
with the burner's flame. I got the design from Karl Lutzen's and Mark
Steven's book Brew Ware. They call it a heat shroud.

My mistake was to extend the cone all the way to the ground. Don't do it!

HBD's Steve Alexander's suggestion for converting an aluminum trash can into
a windscreen sounds like a good idea. However, I would cut out legs for such
a windscreen so that the intense heat near the ground is allowed to
dissipate. Good luck and be sure to check your propane hose every so often.
- ----
Cordially, R. Michael Key

"Extremism in the pursuit of prudence is no vice"--Greasy Fingers, Chicago
Gangsters

"I stink, therefore I offend"--Da Card, Greasy Fingers' little brother
 -




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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:22:13 -0400
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at avery.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: Red Seal Ale recipe request

Just had it on tap here in virginia for the first time. The
bottled product was rather dissappointing. The real thing is
great.
Has anyone got a recipe that comes close? Or hints on what they
use?
Thanks for any help.
Rick Pauly
Charlottesville,VA


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Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 11:24:49 -0500
From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Preventing excessive foaming while serving from kegs

Greetings,

I just started serving from kegs and have a question about reducing
foaming.  The beer I have kegged now is a Bavarian wheat, which is
carbonated to about 3.5 volumes.  To maintain that level, I have to
keep about 27 PSI head pressure on the kegs at the 44F serving
temperature.  But, if I try to serve at that pressure all I get are
glasses full of foam.  So, each time I serve I've been bleeding off
the pressure and then repressurizing to 2-3 PSI for serving, and then
I pump it back up to 27 PSI to maintain the carbonation.  My main
concern about this process is that it takes too long to just serve a
pint or two.  Plus, I'm wasting a lot of CO2.  FYI, I'm serving using
a pretty generic picnic tap on about a 4' length of 3/16" ID beer
line.  Are there pressure reducing valves made for this problem?  I'm
certain there's got to be a better way of doing this.  

Thanks.


- --Dave Humes
Dave Humes                             >>humesdg1 at earthlink.net<<




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Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 10:20:47 -0500
From: "Robert D. Dittmar" <Robert.D.Dittmar at stls.frb.org>
Subject: Kim Chee

     In HBD #2755, Steve Alexander wrote:
     
          Now my question - since nothing goes better with a hoppy ale on a 
          hot summer day than Kim Chee (think chunky sauerkraut with tons 
          of garlic and cheyenne) does anyone have a 'recipe' for this 
          over-the-top Korean fermented vegetable food?
          
     I am also a big fan of kim chee, and have made it several times at 
     home.  As Steve mentioned in his post, again, this is not beer 
     related, but making kim chee also involves fermentation.  Steve is 
     also correct about how well kim chee and beer go together.  Please 
     page down if you are uninterested in this topic.
     
     My recipe for kim chee is nowhere near as technical as Steve's for 
     sauerkraut, although some of the technical aspects of cabbage 
     fermentation that Steve discussed could well be applied here.  For kim 
     chee, I just take a head of Napa (Chinese) cabbage, quarter it, and 
     sprinkle about a quarter cup of salt over the quarters.  I allow the 
     cabbage to sit for a few hours so that moisture is drawn from the 
     cabbage.  I julienne about a half-pound of root vegetables (I've used 
     turnips, carrots, and Daikkon radish), julienne a leek or several 
     green onions, chop garlic and ginger to taste, and mix the vegetables 
     with about 2 tablespoons of cayenne pepper.  I even toss in a 
     julienned apple or pear occasionally.  Rinse the cabbage quarters, 
     stuff the julienned vegetables in between the cabbage leaves, and pack 
     the quarters tightly into a crock or glass bowl.  I cover the cabbage 
     with just enough water to submerge it (although Steve's post makes me 
     think I should use brine next time), and put a plate over the top to 
     keep the cabbage under water.
     
     After that, I just leave the kim chee out on the kitchen counter to 
     let it ferment.  I believe that Koreans will allow fermentation to 
     proceed for months, but I usually start snacking after a week or two.  
     I would note that fermenting cabbage does tend to give off some, er, 
     pungent aromas, so situate the kim chee with that in mind.
     
     Many types of cabbage are available in Asian markets, and all seem to 
     work well for fermentation purposes.  I've used mustard cabbage to 
     make kim chee with excellent results.
     
     Rob Dittmar
     St. Louis, MO


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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:57:00 -0700
From: Kyle_Druey at na.dole.com
Subject: Chimay Red

     I need some advice from the collective on how to make Chimay Red (I
     don't want to make a clone, I want to make the actual beer!).  Grist
     composition, mash schedule, yeast type, fermentation methods,
     maturation length, or anything else pertinent to making this brew.
     Thanks,

     Kyle
     Bakersfield, CA




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Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 09:28:37 -0700
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Re. Metallurgical Question on Converted Kegs/ July 4th Brew

>From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
>Subject: Metallurgical question

> I acidify my sparge water with phosphoric acid (works for me, YMMV).
You said you have very hard water?  I would only add acid if you had
high alkalinity...

> Since I've moved, I noticed that once I heat my sparge
>water, and I end up with a film on top of my sparge water.  It has a
>metallic sort of look to it (reminds me vaguely of mica) and floats.
When
>the water has been all drained, this leaves a thin white film on the
inside
>of the keg.
Sounds like calcium carbonate, although if you are still adding acid
since the move, that should be dissolved.  It is definitely not
dissolved metal. Must be a salt of some sort.

>Standard stainless keg with copper ring manifold.  The keg
>does show some changes in the bottom due to repeated heating with a jet

>style burner adequate to propel a large vehicle down the road.
What kind of changes? this could be bad.  You dont want to overheat this
kind of stainless steel.

>Anyhow, does anybody have any idea what this film might be?  Could it
be
>some of the oxide layer protecting the stainless that is somehow
leached
>off?  Some other gunk?  Never occurs in the mash or boil tuns.
No. It has to be something from the water/acid combination, perhaps an
insoluble sulfate, phosphate or carbonate.  Sulfates and phosphates are
generally soluble but depending on what you pH is, they may have formed
a more insoluble complex. (this is pure conjecture)

>Also, how about acid washing the stainless?  I've got a gallon of
muriatic
>acid that I thought I would use to clean each of the kegs.  Dilute the
>muriatic acid and wash the kegs (proper eye/skin protective wear) and
dry
>them.  How long should I leave them alone so they will passivate?
No, NOT with muriatic acid.  Muriatic is Hydrochloric Acid, which will
take your protective oxides off the stainless faster than anything.  If
you want to acid wash your keg to get rid of that film, then use dilute
phosphoric or Nitric.  Nitric is preferred.  If your film is just
mineral scale, then try vinegar or Lime Away, these commercial products
may do the trick and be a lot less detrimental to the steel.
A week at indoor conditions will do the job of re-passivation after acid
washing.

John Palmer - metallurgist

PS. Here is what I am brewing this weekend:
Some Kind of Beer
8 lbs of Gambrinus Pale Ale Malt
1/2 lb Caravienna
1/4 lb Dark Munich Malt
1/4 lb HB Chocolate Malt
Galena Hops for bittering
Liberty Hops for Flavoring
Homegrown Fuggles for Dry Hopping
About 35 IBUs, 1.040 OG
But! I am going to not sparge! Screw the lost fermentables, I am going
to save a half hour and just use the first runnings.  Brewing on the
foreskin of technology here.




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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 98 10:24 PDT
From: caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns)
Subject: re:mash thickness

Steve Alexanders excellent and Pedantic post regarding mash thickness and 
extractability rate, combined with earlier discussions about RIMS needing 
more water (ie thinner mashes) may help to answer why these RIMS guys get 
such high extraction numbers.

Just synthesizing a few discussions. I'm planning on using a thinner mash 
next time to test this theory myself. I'm not a RIMS brewer. I've been using 
1.0 to 1.25 qts/lb after reading somewhere that thicker mashes produce a 
maltier flavored beer.

Charley (synthesizing thinnly) in N. Cal



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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:27:57 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Prolonged storage of beer at warm temperatures

     Hi all,
     
     Erik says that he has not yet received a response about the 
     consequences of storing kegged beer at high room temperature (70-80F, 
     21-27C).
     
     It's the same as storing bottled beer at that temperature:  not good.  
     The warm temperatures will accelerate the staling reactions that take 
     place in all beers, regardless of packaging.
     
     I tried to do this a number of times, and it never worked.  Either 
     drink it now (have a party) or find a cold space in which to keep it.  
     In the past I kept a keg cool by filling a large cooler with water, 
     putting the keg in it, and putting 1-gallon jugs filled with frozen 
     water in it to keep the temperature low.  By changing the jugs 2 times 
     each day (2 were in the freezer, 2 were in the water with the keg, so 
     I would just swap them), I was able to maintain surprisingly low 
     temperatures (mid 40's; ~7C)).   Not ideal, but better than 80F!
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 14:05:06 -0500
From: "A. J. deLange" <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: PU Opinion/Ammonia

As the psycho-phisiological is on my mind these days, Steve's request
for opnions of PU here and there caught my eye. Perception of beer
flavor and aroma is similar to the perception of color in that it
depends on a lot of factors besides just the taste and aroma of the
beer. I have had PU in this country (most noably from a keg I got once)
which was, in my opinion, better than that at the Prazdroj. I more
recently had it (also draft) at an otherwise very nice restaurant in San
Diego where it was pretty insipid. How do we explain this? Were the
beers different? Possibly - brewed years apart. Obviously well handled
at PU and in the case of the keg I liked, perhaps not so well handled in
the San Diego case. How about the drinker - adapted to superb beers in
Bohemia (Pilsner heaven) PU is arguably the best among lots of nearly as
good beers but isn't so outstanding, i.e. it doesn't stand out so much,
as it does in the US. On travel (Czech Republic, San Diego) the drinker
was perhaps not so relaxed and well rested as he was in the comfort of
his own house. None of the three tasting incidents resemble in the
slightest the conditions (trained, calibrated panel in specially
designed tasting rooms) that would pertain if a better than anecdotal
answer to the question were wanted.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Jay Spies is undoubtedly right in thinking the ammonia smell in his
boiling starter wort is ammonia. Most of these products contains
ammonium dihydrogen phosphate as a nitrogen source. Even at the
relatively low pH of the wort some ammonium ion will convert to ammonia
and be driven off by the heat.



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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:00:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at ns1.imagin.net>
Subject: Welcome lurkers and new posters!

Lurkers, please feel welcome to join in!

Welcome to these folks who hadn't posted before in 1998:

 - In #2750: William Macher, "Biggiebigg" (Jim Huskey), "Cruiser" (Nate
  Wahl), Greg T. Smith, Hans Geittmann.
 - In #2751: Dan McLaughlin, Christophe Frey, Alan Gilbert, Rick Theiner,
  Mary Ethridge, Linus Hall, Michael O. Hanson.
 - In #2752: Christopher W. Kafer, Jesse Krusemark, Kevin R. Martin, Chris
  Carolan, Brew Rat, Ari J.
 - In #2753: Andrzej Sadownik, J. Lonner, Karl Weisel.
 - In #2754: David Schmidthuber, "droot", Jerry Holcomb.
 - In #2755: just us old folks.

And a big thank-you to those already posting, especially a big, warm, wet,
sloppy one to Kyle Druey.  Here's a paper towel, Kyle.

In the first half of 1998*, we had 395 new posters (those who hadn't posted
in 1997).  Of those, 175 posted more than once, and 91 posted at least
three times.  13 posted ten or more times.  Of course, those who started
late (say in June) have had less chance to repeat.

Best,
Sam Mize
       * figures based on analysis of 1997/1998 indexes.  Only approximate.
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam


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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:10:31 -0700 
From: "Eric Moore (Select Group)" <a-emoore at microsoft.com>
Subject: Over-carbonated barley wine

I did the big brew and have a bottled batch of the big 10/20 barley wine.  I
opened one last night at room temperature and it quietly foamed up and out
of the bottle.  I'm concerned that by October I'll have gushers or bombs.
Should I open them all and re-cap them, and if so do I try and get the foam
out.  Is there anything I can do? If it weren't a barley wine I would have
probabaly drank them all by now, please help!! 

Thanks
Eric Moore



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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:15:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Hop picking/Heart of the Hops/Kubessa/teflon/malto-dextrin

Well, it's been nearly a week and PaulN hasn't answered these questions,
so I guess I'll take a shot at them...

Jesse writes:
>I am successfully growing my own hops in central Illinois.  I have
>three plants, each is doing quite well.  One, however, and I'm not
>sure of the variety, put on what seem to be full sized hops a few
>weeks ago, while the others have only blooms.  The hops are papery and
>very fresh smelling.  Are these ready for harvest?

A perennial question (pardon the pun)...

IDEALLY, you would like to keep the bines alive and pick the ripe
hops periodically.  When hops are ready for picking, they will be
noticeably lighter in weight, the outer petals will take on a
papery character, when you squeeze the flowers they will spring
back rather than stay smushed (a technical term... sorry pedantophobes)
and the lupulin at the base of each petal will be bright yellow
(I've read people comparing it to the colour of the yellow highway
dividing lines).  If you can't pick as they ripen, you'll have to
decide when to cut down the bine and pick.  Over-ripe flowers
start to turn brown at the edges and the lupulin starts to turn
more orange.  Most growers wait until a small percentage of the
flowers begin to turn brown (check *every* day).

***
George writes (jokingly at the end):
     Tom asks why some beers can be packaged in clear glass and not be
     skunked.  Thanks to the magic of modern science there exists a product
     called "tetrahydro-iso-extract."  It is isomerized hop extract that is
     light-proof.  This extract will also improve foam stability.
 
     It is important to note that to make beer light-proof requires that no
     "normal" hops be used anywhere in the production process.  Even the
     yeast must be free of "normal" hop iso-alpha acids.
 
     This must be what Miller was referring to as the "heart of the hops."

Actually, just the opposite, ironically.  The "Heart of the Hops" is what's
left of the hop flowers after Miller removes most of the bittering agents
to make their iso extract.  The only beer they make from the "Heart of
the Hops" (to the best of my knowledge) is "Miller Beer" with the red
label, which (not surprisingly, if you have followed this thread) comes
in cans and *BROWN* bottles.   I've read where they use 4 times the normal
amount of these "hops"... but that's probably still about 12 IBUs.

***
George also writes:
     The Kubessa process is a mashing technique where the husks are
     separated from the rest of the grist and not added to the mash until
     just before vorlauf (recirculation).  The goal of this is to minimize
     the amount of grain phenols that get into the wort.
 
     Kunze talks about this process a bit (a really small bit) in
     _Technology Brewing and Malting_, and says that it is seldom used.
 
     Why is it seldom used?  Sounds like a good idea.  If you were using a
     mash filter, you would not need the husks at all.  Is this done?

Does Kunze specifically say this is to minimize phenols?  If not, where did
you read that?  In Malting and Brewing Science (Hough, et al), there is
a table that shows polyphenol levels are very similar for wort made
from regular and dehusked barley.  I believe Steve Alexander posted
a few months ago how most of the polyphenols are elsewhere in the barley
corn, not in the husk.  That table in MBS does, however, show that
silicate levels are much lower in wort made from dehusked barley.

***
Regarding teflon tape and washers, I have a few words of warning.
Although teflon is rated to 400 or 500F, it can burn.  I have a
teflon washer behind the ball valve (on the outside of the pot) on a
small pot I use for making large starters and it is singed a little
on the edge that faces the burners (mere 12,000 BTU kitchen burners).

While this may not be a problem to you or I, if you have any pet
birds (parrots, budgies, etc.), smoking teflon will *kill* them.
I've read where empty teflon cookware left on a burner has killed
parrots.

It seems to me that putting the washer on the *inside* of the
kettle or laeuter tun would prevent the burning of the washer
(just don't heat it empty) and perform the same function, no?

***
JGORMAN writes:
>Is dextrose sugar and malto dextrin the same?  If they are not is malto
>dextrin fully fermentable?

Dextrose is glucose.  It is 100% fermentable.  Malto-dextrin is a mixture
of fermentable sugars and unfermentable dextrins.  There are a wide
variety of sugar syrups and powders made by companies such as ADM,
Staley, and Corn Products.  Unless you get "DE" number on the package
(I believe it stands for dextrose equivalent, but don't quote me on
it), you really can't be certain of how fermentable it is.  I do know
that syrup labeled "DE 62" is also called "wort similar sugar" because
it has close to the same distribution of sugars as wort.  DE 62 will
attenuate a little more than real wort because it doesn't have the proteins
that wort has, so you can expect 80 or 90% apparent attenuation.

The malto-dextrin I got from L.D.Carlson turns out to have only 16%
apparent attenuation, so it is mostly dextrins and only slightly
fermentable.  1 pound of this malto-dextrin in 5 gallons of beer will
add 11 points (0.011) to the Original Gravity and about 9.3 points
(0.0093) to the Final Gravity.

***

Two highly questionable fouls against England, IMO.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 98 14:29:20 CDT
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: aerating starters

When I make starters I oxygenate them every time I add more wort.  What I don't
know, though, is if oxygenating after the sugars are consumed does any good.
Will the yeast use any oxygen in the liquid after the sugars are consumed?
I like to wait for the yeast to settle out and decant the liquid before pitching
and wondered if oxygenating just before doing this was a waste of oxygen or if
it would help strengthen the yeast for the pitch.
What I usually do is decant the liquid, add fresh wort, oxygenate, then pitch.
Of course, then there is sugar available.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 98 14:34:24 CDT
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: basement brewing

Hans Geittmann wrote:

>I rember seeing questions posted about the safety of brewing in basements,
>using a gas fired burner.  Unfortunately, I can't remember any of the
>answers from people who actually tried it, only those cautionary responses
>about CO levels.  SO, anyone out there successfully brewing with propane in
>their basement?  Any suggestions about ventilation or other safety issues?

This sounds ominous.  Has anyone ever heard again from those proposing to brew
in their basements using propane?  Does anyone read the obits?

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


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Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 15:56:11 est
From: paa3983 at dscp.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Subject: Hitting mash Temps

Hans in 2754 is having probs. hitting 158F  at  mash-in.
My SOP  at  mash-in has been to heat the mash water to 180F,
then pump a couple gallons of it into the tun.  Once the false bottom
is covered by the water, I start adding in the grain.  I keep the pump
on the whole time til all the grain is mixed in.  I don't sweat how many
qts. of H20 per pound of grain (never have).   Just mix it til the consistency
seems "right".  I guess this is where the art vs. science
comes in.

I don't even bother measuring the temp. after mash-in.  When I started 
all -graining in the past I used to take the temp. and it always was right
arounf 156-160F.  So now I just make sure the water is 180F.  If I
wanted a drier, less chewy beer I guess I would check the temp after
mash-in and just stir it a couple minutes til it dropped into the low 150s.

Mike Spinelli, Cherry Hill NJ


   



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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:03:44 -0400
From: "LARSONC%DOM13.DOPO7" <Erik.Larson at MS01.DO.treas.sprint.com>
Subject: Prolonged storage of beer at warm temperatures -Reply

Date:  07/01/1998  03:54 pm  (Wednesday)  
From:  C. Erik Larson
To:  EX.MAIL("George_De_Piro at berlex.com"),EX.MAIL."post@hbd.org"
Subject:  Prolonged storage of beer at warm temperatures -Reply

Thanks for the reply to my question about dopplebock storage, George
D.P.

Whlie my original question was as not so specifically worded, I was
wondering whether higher gravity beers and darker beers would fair
better under high temperature storage than than lower gravity, paler
beers?  Would ales necessarily fair better than lagers? Given that I have
been very careful to avoid HSA and oxidation, what will my dopplebock's
shelf-life be at 75F?

Again, thanks.

Erik Larson
(erik.larson at treas.sprint.com)


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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:06:09 EDT
From: JPullum127 at aol.com
Subject: extract choice

I have a achance to buy bulk malt extract syrup, either alexanders,or muntons
at essentially the same price. I have used both in the past and have been
pleased with the results. anyone have thoughts on choosing one over the other?


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Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 09:20:19 +1000
From: Jon Bovard <jonbovard at geocities.com>
Subject: Im soo sick of trub in my ferment!

Greetings to the brewing collective.


We all know that excessive trub in the ferment causes staling, haze and
decreased heat retention.  My Hero, Noonan quotes in brewing
lager beer that a good hot (and cold) break is all for nothing if
excessive break makes its way into the ferment.

My system involves a converted keg with a 3/4inch hole approximately
4inches from the floor in the side, complete with ball
valve etc.

I use the worlds longest immersion chiller to cool the brew.
I usuall end up with an awesome hot break and would otherwise be
producing (IMHO) clear beers if it wasnt for that trub!!
Not only clarity is affected but the taste is somewhat Trubby (if thats
a word?)

I usually use 80-100% pellets in the boil and even though these settle
below the level of the "drain" they always make it in
excess amounts.

I tried the Copper scrub trick yesterday and managed to clog it at
around 1/2 way with loads and loads of trub etc.

Im woed to try whirlpooling as I have my doubts whether this will create
excessive turbulence and trub mixing also.

Im not confident enough in my sanitation to attempt to transfer Cooled
wort from a "settling tank" fermenter to another
fermenter as advocated by some texts.
And No Im not going to get a 400 buck cylindroconical welded for me
either!!

Any advice or enouragement on these or other methods that anyone may
use..and yes Im very open to criticisms about my
theories.

BIG cheers!!
Jon in Trubble in Brisbane Australia
Home of the remaining DUFF beer cans


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Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 23:16:18 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: basement brewing

Hans Geittmann asked if any of us brew in our basement. I have been doing
so for the last five plus years, using a cache cooker (propane)from
Northern Hydraulics (apprx 130k btus).

I open three windows (the small, basement variety) on three different walls
of my basement. The brewpot is under one of the windows, and I have a fan
fixed in front of that window. The steam from the boil rises up and is
blown out the window. I figure the draw from the fan helps fresh air to be
sucked in the other two windows.  I keep a CO detector a few feet away; it
never goes off, so now and then I push the test button to make sure it's
functional (it is).

The other main danger besides CO poisoning would be a leaky tank/fittings
that could fill your basement when you're not down there; the gas could
reach a pilot light on your furnace or water heater and boom! I always turn
the gas off at the tank when I am done brewing.

I know this subject has come up before, and there are a lot of people who
will argue "don't do it" ( and I respect that opinion), and I also know
there have been a number of people who have posted that they do it with no
problems.

My outlook is if you take proper precautions you should be okay. I won't
argue with anyone on the subject because I know there is a risk. If you're
accident prone, don't do it :^)



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