HOMEBREW Digest #2765 Sat 11 July 1998

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  St. Strange ("Rob Moline")
  Grain Mills (mark fletcher)
  killer yeast&sanitation tests/Lime/IM/Worminator ("Steve Alexander")
  PVPP and Phenols ("Steve Alexander")
  Will a double boiler work for decoction? (Mike Spinelli)
  Re: Irish Moss / Grist:Recipe (David Sherfey)
  speaking of hops combinations (Peter.Perez)
  Fruit (JGORMAN)
  Plate and Frame Heatexchangers... (Joe Rolfe)
  A beginner seeks advice (IAN FORBES)
  My Beliefs... (EFOUCH)
  Rubbing alcohol (JGORMAN)
  styles; grist percentage (Samuel Mize)
  RE: Water Question (Robert Arguello)
  Dave Line, Dave Miller, oops (Nathan Kanous)
  Oxidation / Deoxygenating water / Hop pellets (George_De_Piro)
  one CO2, two fridges (Peter.Perez)
  Refrigerator temp controllers/ SS aerating stone <-- source of ("Victor Farren")
  Re: Dryhopping Continental Pilseners (ZIMURGIST)
  Brew Evaluation (Tim Burkhart)
  Irish Moss (Al Korzonas)
  Sherry-like aromas/flavours (Al Korzonas)
  *Miller's* Continental Pilsner (Al Korzonas)
  dryhopped Bohemian (Al Korzonas)
  RE: PPVP;Oxidation;Dry Hop;Wild Yeast;Efficiency;Dilution;Grist% ("LordPeter")
  Re: CO2 Tanks (Jeff Renner)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:36:26 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net> Subject: St. Strange Strange Brewer ....IT IS TIME FOR A READING FROM THE BOOK OF ST. STRANGE:For insomuch as man is made from mortal flesh and doomed to die, he is but a dog who labors through the working day, and having finished his day of work is entitled to sit easy in his chair of repose and ease his troubled mind and aching body in the beer God has given him for to lighten his weary spirit. He bringeth children into the world and they are his joy, but also his worry; yea he fearith for their happiness, and he struggles to bring them up in in trying times so they may know joy in their turn. Give him a beer for them. He livith with woman, his helpmate, who he does not understand, and who sometimes driveth him crazy. Yet she is the flesh of his flesh, and partner of his sorrows and joys. Give them both a beer so they may be joyful and enjoy one more time the pleasure in each other's company that is without sin, and innocent as the clear water that makith the beer that comforts them. Yea, give them beer at all times. At weddings so they may rejoice in the new partnership of love that God has created; and at the same time, assuage their loss as their child makes a new life with their mate. And at the funeral for a loved one, so the pain of loss is lessened with the gladness that their beloved sittith with God. And let there be beer at the triumph of victories great and small, for in this short life it is good that we celebrate the small victories and great. Beer; thou art food and drink, and comfort and distraction. You make me foolish like a child and wise as a sage. I thank the kindly God who made thee for me, and I praise thee when I boil and I sparge. For thee are worthy of praise and respect. Thank the kindly god who made beer! Amen. Forwarded by Jethro Gump "The More I Know About Brewers, The More I Want To Be One!" Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:27:15 -0700 From: mark fletcher <fletcher at efn.org> Subject: Grain Mills There's been a recent thread about grain mill gaps- this has prompted me to discuss my mill. I was able to acquire a used pizza dough roller for free ( this did not even require a homebrew bribe, I just had to haul the heavy bastard away). It consists of two infinitely adjustable stainless steel rollers which are about 4" in diameter and about 30 " long. I motorized the thing with an old motor that my grandpa had lying around ( he was a rock hound, now he's dead- loved that man.The motor previously powered a tumbler- now my hobbies take precedence- don't tell my grandma) and then I built a stand and a hopper out of odd bits of lumber that were lying around. My first attempt to crush grain was a grand and utterly abysmal failure (even though Deschutes Mirror Pond Pale Ale was involved)- it seemed the rollers, which were very smooth -refused entry to the plump grains that were attempting to find a new life as beer somewhere beneath those near- sighted, horizontal, steel obelisks. In a flurry I tried to enlighten the alloy heathens with several series of divots- divots that were insisted by a carbon steel chisel and a hammer and a shower of diacetyl sweat and an occasional nip at a bottle of BIGFOOT. This measure proved somewhat effective and I was able to allow several malted grains to see the light of "nature of reactants". But it still wasn't fast enough (and Uncle Tupelo played on in the background and I took a nip at a glass of La Trappe Tripel) so I composed an entire symphony on the unfortunate cylinders and now I am once again God of my sphere and my grain crushes at a rate that would make most homebrewers blush. You want specifiics you say (tried New Glarus Raspberry Tart for the first time-incredible; but not as good as their cherry beer- which may be the best American beer in America): How 'bout 10 lbs. of grain in 75 seconds. How 'bout .035" gap with nicely intact barley husks. How 'bout wheat like water. How 'bout almost no dust ( so no one warn me about nature of reactants) How 'bout not sticking your hand in it (imagine the sideways smiley face here and imagine a nice glass of Thomas Hardy to admire your crushed hand by). So everyone head outdoors to your nearest pizza parlor and steal a dough roller (3 AM is a good time-12 extremely cold cans of Keystone Light are suggested to accompany). This is my first post and it won't be my last. Newbie though I be. Mark from Springfield, Or. (graduated from Thurston High school-you know Kip Kinkel. I had his father as a Spanish teacher and he was a great person- no bull. Kip is a genetic tweak.) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 05:28:41 -0400 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: killer yeast&sanitation tests/Lime/IM/Worminator mark.mallett at bbc.co.uk asks ... >b) A short lag time reduces the chance of infection. >[...] seems to lead to yeast having anti-microbial properties, is this so. I >presume it is the CO2 given off, that keeps bugs outside the fermenting >vessel. Any other ideas? CO2 and Ethanol in the beer helps prevent bacterial growth as does the fact that yeast use the simplest sugars up first. The quick reduction of O2 in solution, the CO2 layer above the beer prevent aerobes pretty effectively. The rocky krausen/head in the fermenter helps prevent airborne infections from taking off too. But primarily it's the pH drop that leave the competitors in the dust. Note too that most bacteria have a higher requirement for sterols and UFAs than yeast - and nearly all require either O2 or wort sterols+UFAs to grow (there are a few exceptions which can make sterols under anaerobic conditions). A low trub wort with the O2 depleted isn't a real friendly place for bacterial growth. Interestingly there are some 'killer yeast' varieties that emit some substance that prevents the growth of other yeasts. I believe it's an enzyme. This occurs in some wild yeasts and in at least some commercial sake' yeasts. I've seen that there are articles on 'killer yeast' in brewing journals, but never bothered to check out whether this phenomenon occurs in any brewing yeasts too. Only after the sugars and several critical amino acids are depleted and the alcohol level is fairly high does beer become nearly uninfectable by bacteria, yeasts and molds. For this reason alone a high pitching rate and so a relatively quick fermentation helps prevent problems - the beer is just vulnerable for less time. OTOH Sam Mize writes ... >Lax sanitation is a dance with probability. Every skipped step creates a >risk of infection. How big that risk is depends on your environment, your >other procedures, your materials, and so on. If your total risk of >infection is 5% per batch, you have an even chance of making 13 batches ... Unfortunately few of us brew under lab conditions, so the probability of infection in homebrew and microbrews is virtually 100%. They questions then are how extensive is the infection and how bad are the by-products (as Sam did note). I'd strongly suggest the infection test G.Fix writes about in 'An Analysis of Brewing Techniques' pg 92 - BTW a great book IMO. The only equipment required is a sealable jar (canning jar, baby food jar), your nose, tongue and a calendar. As you are filling your fermentor, before pitching, divert a little wort to a sanitized jar; seal and store in a warm place (0.5L & 86F are suggested). Check it a couple times a day until you see signs of infection (cloudiness, surface growth, bulging lid). The time to infection evaluation is (my descriptions):: <24 hours - serious trouble - toss your beer and review sanitation procedures. 24-48 hours - less serious but unacceptable sanitation, expect some off flavors 48-72 hours - Beer will not be affected, but better sanitation is called for. > 72 hours - the desired situation. The nice thing about this simple test is that it's then easy to smell and taste the very same infections that are likely to appear in your beer. If you have a microscope it's a great opportunity to ID the organisms present. Using this method I found that my basement brewery tends to get wild yeasts that produce a pentadione aroma (honey-sweet) but otherwise aren't serious off-flavor producers. I also found that a longer iodophor soak of my CFchiller increased the 'time to infection' very significantly. Aside from infections in repitched yeast, this seems like a very safe, sane effective means of testing your sanitation procedures and tasting the enemy. I do this on every batch now. Steve Jackson asks about the the use of slaked lime to precipitate bicarbonate. I asked this a couple years back and AJ gave the details. Slaked lime and hydrated, aside from the weight/mole differences should work the same. Food grade hydrated lime is available for pickling use - often at the places that sell canning jars. Bottom line is that the amount of hydrated lime required is highly variable depending on several water parameters and the phase of the moon. I get good precipitation by adding between 0.18 and .21 grams per gallon to my 88ppm carbonate water - tho the direct calculation, as I recall suggests 0.35 gram. It doesn't really save time, since you'll need to add the lime the day before and allow for precipitation. The weighing obviously requires a rather good scale. Initial pH on my treated water is high (like 8.1), but the buffering is virtually eliminated. Determining the amount of lime will require a bit of experimentation. My advise is that phosphoric (or perhaps other) acid additions are a simpler & quicker solution. The Irish Moss question - After using IM religiously for a few years I experimented not using it. I found that *usually* IM makes no difference in the final clarity of my beers. My impression too is that IM may cause some few beers to clear sooner than they would otherwise, but I have doubts that it prevents permanent haze. I've pretty much stopped using it. IMs effectiveness is very sensitive to the wort pH and probably other conditions too. IM additions like the 4tsp/11gallons quoted is about twice the max I would consider using. Does anyone have a night vs day anecdotal experience that says IM is highly effective in preventing haze ? I'd like to hear about it. Somehow Charley's story about the bugs in his vorlauf bucket remind me of the Spoonerism about 'tasting the worm/wasting the term'. Are worms an adjunct ? Probably not enough carbohydrates to qualify - but plenty of protein and glycogen. I guess I'll pass by the question of this late protein addition's affect on haze. Steve Alexander Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 06:15:37 -0400 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: PVPP and Phenols Randi Ricchi asks if PVPP will pull positive flavor phenols out of beer. The short answer is yes - it can - tho' is has a greater tendency to attach to oxidized and polymerized phenols rather than simple phenols. I think that you can safely use reasonable amounts of PVPP to reduce tannins without reducing the small positive flavor phenols much. Overuse of PVPP and other protein substitutes will strip flavor tho'. I don't know the specifics of PVPP and 4VG interactions, but I would guess that it's not a big issue. >You may wonder why I would want to clear yeast from a hefe-weizen. >I want to see if it will increase flavor stability. My weizens are much >better in the first month or two of their life, than they are when they are >older. They don't really go off; they still taste like weizens, they just >lose some of the fruitiness, and become drier. PVPP won't solve this problem. 4 vinyl-guauicol (4-VG) decays substantially with time and tempurature. The half-life, as I recall, is only a couple months at cellar temperatures. Weizens lose their 4VG taste fairly quickly over time. The solution is to brew smaller batches more frequently, or to store part of a batch at yet cooler temperatures. You may actually want to brew a weizen that is initially a bit too 4VG-ish - just so the level will be right by the time the beer is hmmm-well cleared. If your beer is too clovey-tasting just give it time. Steve Alexander Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 07:50:28 est From: paa3983 at dscp.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli) Subject: Will a double boiler work for decoction? HBDers, If I placed my decoctions in say, a 5 gallon SS pot and then placed the pot inside a sanke keg filled with boiling water, would the decoction boil ? I would think this would eliminate scorching problems and the need to stir. Kinda like a double boiler is used when melting chocolate. Thanks Mike Spinelli - Cherry Hill NJ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 08:25:47 -0400 From: David Sherfey <sherf at warwick.net> Subject: Re: Irish Moss / Grist:Recipe Chuck quotes Miller and AK on Irish moss According to George Fix, AOBT, page 122, 1 tsp in five gallons (1/24 g/L) of refined Irish moss flakes is on the low end of the recommended use scale, producing 350-400 Formazin turbidity units. Commercial use levels are two (1/12, 200-250) to three (1/8, 150-200) times higher. Irish moss is not recommended for protein deficient worts, ie. malt syrups, etc. I have used 1 tbsp/5 gallons in several recent brews with no carryover into the fermenter and no noticible fermentation problems. ***** Jeff Writes: Therefore, it would be more accurate to specify the grain bill in terms of percentages of extract from each grain, and let the brewer figure out how much of each grain to use based on extract potentials and system efficiency. <snip> Yes, if everyone was using the same identical method of recipe communication, this would be a good thing. However, with the different levels of brewing experience, knowledge, and brewing equipment/process that exists in the homebrewing community, this would be a difficult thing to standardize on to the extent that real repeatable and reproduceable accuracy would result. All it would take is one hydrometer to be "out of calibration" to throw things off in someones calculation of their extract efficiency. What if they were using old malt and didn't know it? What if they wrongly estimated the amount of wort/beer remaining in the glop in the kettle/fermenter? Even if there were a standardized method of communication, I would have a hard time trusting the accuracy of the information except from a handful of known brewers. Even if we could somehow standardize the grist thing, we then come to hops! Many tiny little material variables here with significant flavor impact. Since most of us don't have equipment to measure real IBUs, we estimate, based on logic we have developed for ourselves based on comparison, etc. Some of us estimate the storage losses, and others don't. How could we possibly communicate repeatable and reproducable hop recipe information? Perhaps I have gone a bit further than the original topic....I think most of us just realize that someone elses recipe is just a data point reference to use to launch our own recipe from. Yes, you can get a winner by copying verbatim, but it isn't guaranteed. Cheers! David Sherfey Warwick, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:47:10 -0400 From: Peter.Perez at smed.com Subject: speaking of hops combinations My hop garden this year is producing the following: Nugget, Bullion, Liberty, Fuggles and Saaz. Anyone and everyone, please share with me any combinations of these five strains that might work well together. If you know of some combination, please share the hop schedule with me. Thanks, Pete Return to table of contents
Date: 9 Jul 1998 08:49:12 -0400 From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com Subject: Fruit I have a question about fruit and fermenting. Last week I made up a batch of wheat beer and let it ferment in the primary for 1 week. After one week I siphoned it on to 3 lbs of raspberries and there was no fermentation. I pasturized the raspberries at 160 F for 15 minutes. Should there be some fermetation in my secondary? rIvEr DoG bReWeRy Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:40:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net> Subject: Plate and Frame Heatexchangers... when the microbrewers confr was in boston a few years ago i remember seeing a small homebrew sized phe from either alpha laval or apv. if memory serves me it was rather inexpensive. like around $100-$200. big drawback - did not come apart. which is ok if you can put an inline filter before it. i dont think it had sanitary fittings tho. Al K mentioned Pub Brewing Sys, with all the breweries going under these days you might be able to get a real nice one for about $500 when buying a used one - buyer beware, take it apart if it does so, keeping track of the plate order, and the compressed width or all the plates. the best ones i have found for maint reasons are the type that have gaskets that are not glued to the plate but are "clipped" type. by taking it apart you might have to spring for a new gasket set. also find out where it came from, some applications are very demanding. pressure and heat can cause microscopic cracks and pitting. A look with a mag glass might reveal some grand canyon sized openings. good luck and great brewing Joe Rolfe Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 09:49:55 -0400 From: IAN FORBES <IFORBES at BCBSCT.COM> Subject: A beginner seeks advice I am very interested in becoming a home brewer. In the hope of starting off on the right foot, I was wondering if I could get some advice regarding the purchasing of a starter kit and the associated required equipment. I have taken a look at quite a few homebrew supply houses on the web, but it is hard to tell if the advice they are giving is good advice or if it is advice that is only meant to sell the products they are carrying. Any and all advice is much appreciated. One other question - I do have the opportunity to purchase a "True Brew Maestro Series kit" (includint the folowing equipmemt; 1) The True Brew Handbook 2) Primary Fermenting Bucket & Lid, 6.5 gal. 3) Bottling Bucket with Bottling Spigot-6.5 gal 4) Rack & Siphon Set including: a) True Brew Spring Bottle Filler b) 4 feet of Flex Tubing c) 24 inch Curved Cane & Racking Tip d) Tubing Clamp e) Tube Holder 5) Hydrometer 6) Double Lever Capper 7) Bottle Brush 8) 3 piece Airlock 9) C-Brite Sanitizing Cleanser 10) Fermometer) for around $10.00 - $15.00. Would this be a wise choice? Thanks again! Ian iforbes at bcbsct.com Return to table of contents
Date: 9 Jul 1998 10:17:09 -0400 From: EFOUCH at steelcase.com Subject: My Beliefs... HBD- I believe that I had a fairly good first year hop harvest so far. About 1oz Saaz (I think it didn't like the Mg defficiency I exposed it to), and about 10oz Northern Brewer. I also believe I will get about 2#'s Cascade, when their ready. I believe I heard previously on the HBD that people who brewed with home grown hops experienced grassy flavors and aromas in their finished beer. I noticed when drying the hops in my Ronco Food Dehydrator (I beleive I have no affiliations) the first aromas were very grassy. In the morning (after 9 hours of drying), the hops were dry, and the aroma was of hops, not grass. Could these grassy experiences be attributed to improperly dried hops? Anything else to look out for to avoid grassy flavors/aromas? I believe I will try to bribe a friend of mine who works at an analytical lab to do some acid analysis on my hops to determine % acid. What's the going rate (in homebrew)? I believe next year I will dose my hops with MgSO4 earlier in the year hopefully for a better yeild and healthier plants. I believe Kyle Druey posted 34 times in 1997, and 137 times in 1998. What gives? I believe Alan G. Monaghan asked: >As a question, I have just gotten into my 1st kegging unit. I am >starting with 30psi for a day or two and then kicking it down to 10psi >for the pours. My only problem is the CO2 doesn't stay in the beer for >long periods of time. By the 10 to 15 minute mark, I have nothing >bubbling up from the bottom of the glass. What can I do to try to >correct this? Alan- DRINK FASTER! Eric Fouch Head Hop Harvester Bent Dick YoctoBrewery Kentwood, MI PS- Looking for a good Cock Hop recipe. I got some monster cock hops from my NB. Maybe five big cock hops, and an old rooster? Return to table of contents
Date: 9 Jul 1998 10:47:13 -0400 From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com Subject: Rubbing alcohol Has anyone ever used rubbing alcohol to sterilize their brewing equipment? Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:15:41 -0500 (CDT) From: Samuel Mize <smize at mail.imagin.net> Subject: styles; grist percentage > From: James_E_Pearce at nag.national.com.au > Subject: ...hops and styles > > On another note, AlK responded to someone's (I forget who) query on hop > combinations with a reference to hops and styles. Although your attempt at > dry hopping with Saaz was not like a Bohemian pilsener, was it any good? > > After all that's what I want to know. Not being a judge, or even being > familiar with American competition styles, all I care about is if the > outcome is good (and repeatable). I agree with your main point -- Al has said much the same thing: if you don't care about styles, don't worry about it. However, a little more description than "good" would be useful. For example, I dry-hopped a batch with a citrusy hop -- Cascade, I think -- and neither my wife nor I could stand it. It was like grapfruit beer. Now, it was a well-enough made beer, and my friend who drank up the batch would say it was "good." But I won't be making it again. That's another thing standard styles are good for, by the way: helping us categorize beers so we can find ones we'll like and avoid ones we won't. That's why I'm averse to brewpubs (et al) playing fast and loose with style names. It's easy enough to not use a standard designation as part of a beer's name, if it's way outside that style. (That was "et alia," Al would never misname a beer.) - - - - - - - - - - > From: Jeff Schroeder <jms at rahul.net> > Subject: Grist% ... > Al Korzonas writes in response to a question about grist %: ... > >Unless otherwise specified, recipes specify the percentages of the >grist > >by the weight of the malt. ... > it would be more accurate to specify the grain bill in terms of > percentages of extract from each grain, and let the brewer figure out > how much of each grain to use based on extract potentials and system > efficiency. > > Anyway, that's what I would have assumed. Whoa momma, he's more techno-pedantic than Al! :-) * Most homebrewers won't want to mess with figuring separate extraction rates to determine their grain bill, even if they can do so accurately. I think that recipes are given in percents so you can scale them easily. *smiley added for the humor impaired Best, Sam Mize - -- Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:01:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com> Subject: RE: Water Question ON Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:10:42 -0400 WALT CROWDER at gsnetworks.gensig.com wrote: Subject: Water question This is my first post after lurking for a couple of years. I recently moved to a new home that has a well. My previous house had public water and my beer was always fine. I haven't brewed yet :( I'm still getting my brewery together. My water goes through a purifier and softener. I will be getting a basic water test from the people contracted to take care of the softener. Softened water is generally not the best for brewing. Typical softening systems replace "hardness" ions with sodium. Luckily, properly installed softening systems do not provide softened water to outside water taps. You might consider having water from an outside hose bib tested. Also, what kind of "purifier" is in line with the softener? If the water is being filtered before entering the water softener you might find that to be the best place to obtain your brewing water. In either case, an analysis for bacteria and mineral content would be a good idea. ******************************************************************** Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com> CORNY KEGS FOR SALE! $12.00 each http://www.calweb.com/~robertac/keg.htm ProMash Brewers' Software - http://www/calweb.com/~robertac/promash ******************************************************************** Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 11:00:17 -0500 From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu> Subject: Dave Line, Dave Miller, oops My apologies to Dave Miller. I incorrectly cited Dave Line as the author of Continental Pilsner. And I had the book in my hand at the time. Must've been frazzled by all those pellets for dry hopping! nathan Nathan L. Kanous II, Pharm.D., BCPS Clinical Assistant Professor School of Pharmacy University of Wisconsin - Madison Office Phone (608) 263-1779 Pager (608) 265-7000 #2246 (digital) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:20:14 -0700 From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com Subject: Oxidation / Deoxygenating water / Hop pellets Hi all, Dave has a sherry-like character in his beer. It seems to be forming pretty quickly. He wonders if the cause is hot side aeration (HSA) or cold side aeration (CSA) of the finished beer. Since the beer is becoming damaged so quickly, I would guess that you are aerating the finished beer excessively. While HSA is bad, CSA is much worse. It can reduce the shelf-life of your beer to a couple of weeks (a friend experienced damage to an Altbier in less than 2 weeks by getting too much air pickup when racking). Commercial brewers go to great pains to keep air out of the finished beer, and we should, too (within reason). Some likely places to look: 1. The connection between a solid tube and a soft tube (i.e., where your tubing meets a bottle filler or racking cane). 2. Splashing of the beer into a carboy or bottle. 3. Stirring in the priming solution. 4. Excessive headspace in the bottle. 5. Suck-back through the airlock when cooling a carboy. The list goes on and on. Some of the techniques I use to help minimize air exposure include using a keg as a bottling tank (purge it with CO2, add the primings and beer through the liquid-in fitting, etc.), minimizing beer transfers (you don't always need a "secondary fermenter"), using kegs for lagering rather than carboys (no air can get in), etc. A little paranoia goes a long way in minimizing air pick-up! ------------------------------- Gregg asks about diluting his accidental ice beer back to its proper gravity. He is understandably concerned about using water to do this because of the potential for oxidation. There are several ways to deoxygenate water. A popular method at large breweries is to bubble hydrogen through the water in the presence of a palladium catalyst (in the form of small balls). The hydrogen reacts with the oxygen in the water to form more water. How clever! You probably won't try that at home though, so just file that info under "stupid things to say at a party." For home use I recommend boiling some water and running it through a counter-flow chiller into the fermenter. Boiling will drive off all of the oxygen (and other gasses), and quickly chilling it in the enclosed environment of the CF chiller will prevent it from reabsorbing any air. -------------------------------- Nathan writes in to comment about Al K.'s dry hopping of a Pilsner, and questions the use of pellets in this application. Why would you not use pellets? Other than the hops I have grown myself, I have never seen (or smelled) whole hops in good condition at a homebrew shop (yes, even the ones that are vacuum packed in mylar bags). Hop pellets are convenient to store, *stay fresh better than whole hops*, and have the fortunate habit of sinking to the bottom of whirlpools and carboys. Some folks may argue that whole hops are less processed and more natural, etc., but I prefer to choose my ingredients because of freshness and quality rather than philosophical ideals. If you can get fresh, whole hops, feel free (and lucky!) to use them. Don't choose your ingredients for the wrong reasons, though. Have fun! George De Piro (Nyack, NY) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:33:18 -0400 From: Peter.Perez at smed.com Subject: one CO2, two fridges I was wondering if anyone had a setup with one CO2 cylinder, and two refrigerators. If so, how did you set it up? Where did you get the fittings, etc? How do you know if it is safe to drill thru the side walls of your fridge? Answers to these types of question would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Pete Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:24:37 -0400 From: "Victor Farren" <vfarren at smtp.cdie.org> Subject: Refrigerator temp controllers/ SS aerating stone <-- source of I have been thinking for a while about getting an extra refrigerator and now that I have an opportunity to get one at a good price I have a few questions: I know that Johnson Controls makes a variety of temperature controllers. I have checked some online catalogs and came across two different types. The first claimed a 2 degree differential, and the other claimed a 3.5 degree differential. The price difference is almost negligible ($5) but the brewstore w/ the 3.5 differential claimed it would save a lot of wear and tear on the compressor. I like the idea of saving my compressor and I think that 3.5 vs 2 degrees isn't a whole lot (seeing that the temp of the beer probably wouldn't fluctuate much at all anyway b/c liquids are slower to absorb/dissipate thermal energy than air). Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Would the compressor really work that much extra (claim was that it would have to work twice as hard to maintain 2 degree diff. as opposed to the 3.5 degree diff.)? Also, both refrigerator controllers are the type where the temperature sensor bends around the door of the fridge. What other types of controllers are there? Are they worth the extra money or are the 'door' models just as effective? SS aerating stone: I a lucky enough to have 5lb tank of O2. I want to use it to aerate my wort using a 2 micron SS aerating stone. I was planning on sanitizing it by boiling it in water. Is this enough? My concern is that it can become a source of infection if it is not properly cleaned and sterilized between batches. Thanks in advance, private e-mails are ok Victor J. Farren Research & Reference Services PPC/CDIE/DI/RRS Tel: (202) 661-5842 Fax: (202) 661-5891 E-mail: vfarren at rrs.cdie.org Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:33:19 EDT From: ZIMURGIST at aol.com Subject: Re: Dryhopping Continental Pilseners Greetings All, Some one recently posted that Dave line advocated dry-hopping w/saaz for a pilsener. Al K. responded previous to that and said it was a no-no (out of style). I pulled out my trusty dusty Continental Pilsener book by Dave Miller. In it he refers to dry-hopping with saaz specifically in all his recipes. I have dry-hopped with saaz in both leaf and pellet form(but not at the same time). I liked the results but the beer seemed a little"grassy" tasting. I then tried a hop tea made by boiling 1 cup H2O and then steeping the hops in that for several minutes (<5). The hops were contained in a nylon hop bag. The hops and tea were then put in the keg. This seemed to produce a fuller rounder hop aroma profile (IMO) better than dry-hopping or hop tea alone. I think the brief heating of the hops keeps the grassy tones down while accentuating the hop aroma. I've also tried this technique with my pale ales and have enjoyed the results (YMMV). It worked well for me! David Schmidthuber Zimurgist at aol.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:33:27 -0500 From: Tim Burkhart <tburkhart at dridesign.com> Subject: Brew Evaluation Awhile back on the HBD, Robert Parker requested if anyone might participate, or simply share their opinion, in a flavor profile survey of a limited number of commercially available beers. I mailed him privately asking him to fwd on any info. Robert responded saying that he had not gotten any responses from his post. So with Robert's permission, I am going to reword his request and fish for a response. I have read various passages from homebrew texts on how to make a complete sensory evaluation of my brew. I have also tried to follow along with my brew in hand and written down what I thought the texts said I should look for...aroma, head, lace, color, clarity, fruity, estery, grainy, nutty, grassy, catty, etc... However, lacking any experience in beer evaluation, my perception of aroma, color, and individual flavors are simply my opinion. What I am looking for is an example of a complete tasting profile of a commercial brew. I would like to purchase this brew and follow along with the profile. If this beer were Guinness Pub Draught, for example, I would have a tangible starting point for a real evaluation of this particular stout; ie, dense creamy tan head, black and opaque color, roasted malt, etc... That's as far as my evaluation skills go. I want to astound my wife and friends with bigger, nerdier words and in depth perception without talking out of my...well you get the idea. :^) Can I acheive this without participation in a spiked brew test or by enrolling in Siebel? Opinions, published examples, websites appreciated. Tim Burkhart Kansas City Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:58:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: Irish Moss Chuck asks me to clarify (sorry) my position on Irish Moss. I've found (as per George Fix's recommendation) the proper amount of Irish Moss in an *allgrain* batch is approximately 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons. If you've got a very high-gravity wort (i.e. proportionately more protein) you may want to use proportionately more Irish Moss. My own experiments have shown that for *extract* batches, the proper amount of Irish Moss is 1/4 teaspoon per 5-gallon batch. I theorise that this is true because much of the protein has been removed during the production of the extract. Furthermore, I've found that as little as two times the recommended amount of Irish Moss can be *worse* than none at all! Yes... I read this first in Beer and Brewing (forget the volume) the transcripts of the AHA National Conference. It was in a talk by Terry Foster who explained in detail why too much of a fining can be worse than none at all. It was called "Clear Beer, Please" if memory serves correctly. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:18:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: Sherry-like aromas/flavours Dave asks what can cause sherry-like aromas/flavours. In my experience, this is most likely due to Hot-Side Aeration. You should review your procedures (stirring the mash too eagerly?) and equipment (a kettle spigot sucking in air?) and see if you have indeed eliminated all possibile sources of HSA. I'm sure that the chemists will correct me if I'm wrong, but molecular oxygen need not be present for oxidation to occur (this I know for sure)... I believe that iron in your water can cause oxidation problems (this is where I need the chemists to confirm or refute). Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:26:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: *Miller's* Continental Pilsner Nathan confuses Dave Line and Dave Miller, I believe. In Dave Miller's Continental Pilsner, he does indeed dryhop every beer. I am confident that it is incorrect (and I've got references to prove it) that Bohemian Pilsners are not dryhopped, but I'm also currently doing some research into Miller's claim that Warsteiner dryhops their (German) Pilsner. Miller is the *only* source I can find where the claim is made that commercial German *lager* brewers are dryhopping (some Duesseldorfer Altbier brewers do dryhop their Sticke). I'll post a complete report on my findings when I get a few answers back from across the big pond. Al. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:39:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: dryhopped Bohemian James asks was my dryhopped Bohemian Pils any good. Yes, it was a tasty, drinkable beer, but nobody would mistake it for a Pilsner (Bohemian or otherwise). It was slightly grassy, quite estery (hop oils have many esters) and very un-Pils-like. I suppose that I could have entered it as a Pale Ale, but you could tell the hops were Saaz (spicy/peppery) and there again we have a stylistic error. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:52:00 -0700 From: "LordPeter" <BARLEYWINE at prodigy.net> Subject: RE: PPVP;Oxidation;Dry Hop;Wild Yeast;Efficiency;Dilution;Grist% Happy BrewDay!! I will try to answer several of #2763 posts at once. 1a) Randi Ricchi talks of polyclar and his methods of usage. Randi uses a combination of bentonite (silica gel) and PPVP. While this is indeed a very effective combination, as the bentonite removes the proteinaceous materials and the PVPP removes the tannoids, I would like to ask Randi if the beer proofed with the combination suffered any loss of mouthfeel, head retention, etc. due to loss of proteins. (From Siebel: untreated beer: 7.5 EBC haze treated with silica gel: 2.5 EBC haze treated with silica gel and PVPP: 1.5 EBC haze) The PITA of bentonite urges one to try the simplicity of PVPP alone. Bentonite needs to be rehydrated through a process that requires 24 or more hours preparation. Compare this to 10 minutes with PVPP. Furthermore, PVPP will completely settle within one to two days (Polyclar-10 requires 48 hours, Polyclar-88 requires 8 hours,) while bentonite (if properly applied) may take one or two weeks. Bentonite will cause the loss of .5 gallons or so. My opinion is that PPVP is probably the BEST chill proofer, all things considered. Use Polyclar at a rate of 2.4 grams (two level tsp.) per 5 gallons. Use one cup clean water to make a slurry. Two days later, at the bottom of your brilliantly clear fermenter there will be a tight layer that will stay put. 1b) Indeed, fining your beer, in addition to removing the tannoids, "will also remove a fraction of the smaller phenolics that ... might be desirable for balanced flavor." (BT Dec. 1997, pg 75, Steve Alexander) The 4-Vinyl Guaiacol and its precursor, ferulic acid, are said to be monophenols. While their attraction to adsorbents is not as great as tannoids, there is a danger here. 2)Dave Williams has problems with sherry like oxidation: Tannins are responsible for the formation of these oxidation reactions. Use PVPP. Also, be sure you evacuate with co2 before filling your bottles. 3) Dry Hopping: Nathan Kanous read a book by Dave Miller, not Dave Line. IMO, dry hopping in a delicate style like Bo Pils should be done very carefully. There is no to very very little hop aroma in PU. I like to use late kettle additions for aroma here. Saaz, Tett, or my fave, Strisselspalt. 4) Hey David Humes: RE: Poor Hefe Head, wild yeast not likely culprit. I had a 12 gallon batch of Hefe, which was fermented with wyeast 3068. Half was bottled, and half was cold conditioned for three months. The latter half was then bottled with a fresh dose of lager yeast. The normal batch after another three months (6 months bottle time) had a very anemic head and no body. The lager yeasted bottles and the same time (3 months bottle time) were rich and exhibited great head. Another brewer told a similar tale of 3068. Perhaps it has some peculiar protein reducing properties? Does anyone from Wyeast read this digest? 5) Jonathan Edwards is concerned about efficiency; Hey Jon, how are you calculating your efficiency? You need to know the CG data for every grain in your bill before you can hope to be accurate. 6) Gregg Soh needs to dilute his "Eis Ale". Adjust water pH. Preboil, and then pour it into a co2 filled keg. Seal and carbonate to proper volume. Do a closed pressurized keg to keg transfer. 7) Jeff Scroeder is right, (Sorry AlK.)The percentage of EXTRACT from each grains contribution is important. If anyone is interested in the RIGHT way to calculate a grain bill, e-mail me privately. And Jeff, just for fun, in the recipe you mentioned: > 90% Two row, > 5% wheat > 5% Crystal (lets use crystal 20) to get a Original Extract of 12, in 10 gallons, using all Briess grains, how would YOU calculate it. BTW, the Siebel Brew Computer gives this figure to achieve 12 plato: 12.6 kg extract / hl Brewing a Trippel tonight ;'] Cheers. Peter Gilbreth barleywine at prodigy.net www.barleywine.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:29:30 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: CO2 Tanks "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net> wrote >I put a CO2 tank and regulator in the refrigerator along with the >Corny kegs and was wondering something. I know that the tank's pressure >reading changes with temperature same as with scuba tanks and the like but >the volume does not. So, do I adjust the output pressure at ambient >temperature and leave it alone or re-adjust it after placing it in the >refrigerator and allowing ample time for the temperature to adjust? You can answer this yourself by doing a thought experiment (that's how Einstein figured out relativity; we're not as smart as Einstein, but this isn't theoretical physics, either). The pressure gauge is reading the pressure in a static system after it has come to equilibrium, meaning the pressure is the same at all points of the system. (If the pressure weren't the same at all points, then gas would flow from higher to lower pressure until it became the same). Irrespective of where you put the tank regulator and gauge, the beer with its dissolved CO2 and the headspace over it are going to be in the fridge. So the pressure in the equilibrated system will be the same in either case, and the pressure will read the same. Of course, this assumes you have a temperature compensated pressure gauge that reads accurately over the range of temperatures. So the answer is, use the same pressure setting as you would if the tank were outside the fridge based on easily available tables showing vol. CO2 for temp and presuure. And, contrary to what some have posted some years ago, you won't use up the gas any sooner with the tank in the fridge. Jeff Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
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