HOMEBREW Digest #2787 Tue 04 August 1998

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Re: Improving beer through bigger starters ("George De Piro")
  Gushers,forced fermentation, Clinitest ("David R. Burley")
  jim liddil's post #2784 (tonja and kevin eichelberger)
  Proper Iodophor Temp. (Domenick Venezia)
  A Canning Question / A Propane Question (MaltyDog)
  Proper storage of malt. (Matthew House)
  Schmidling Productions, Inc.... New Web Location (Jack Schmidling)
  Jack Bashing ("Bob Zamites")
  Re: Pitching temps - second thought (Dion Hollenbeck)
  RE:inactivity ("Grant W. Knechtel")
  holes in my fridge (Robert Johnson)
  Irish Moss vs Carrageenan (Fred Johnson)
  pH Data (Fred Johnson)
  Re-Pitching after using Polyclar (rpm2nite)" <rpm2nite at ten.net>
  Re: High Temp. Wheat Beer Ferments (Jim Bentson)
  Amstel Lager in the Netherland Antilles ("Scott W. Nowicki")
  sweet potato (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  Re: artistic pitching rates re-visited (Scott Murman)
  bottle conditioning ("arne seeger")
  hop questions ("Paul E. Lyon")
  Brewery Finance 201 (Results)
  re: extract FAN/fusels/O2/beer inductors/starters/top-fermenters (Jeff)
  Forced Aging? (Paul Ward)
  Lifting Carboys (Mark_Snyder)
  Use of OAK in brewing (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Women Brewers (Monika Schultz)
  Starter gravity (Dave Humes)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 02 Aug 98 08:55:30 PDT From: "George De Piro" <gdepiro at fcc.net> Subject: Re: Improving beer through bigger starters Hi all, Alan wants to pitch a large starter, but is concerned about pitching 10% of a foreign wort into the main batch. He asks if you can just pitch the dregs from the starter. You can just pitch the dregs, but unless the starter is fermented out, that will cut the cell count and select only for the cells that flocculate early. If you were to repeat this several times with the same batch of yeast, you could end up with a yeast population that floccs too early. To maximize the number of cells pitched while minimizing the amount of alien wort going into the main batch, constantly aerate the starter (using an aquarium pump) and/or agitate it constantly (using a stir plate). Allow it to ferment out, decant off most of the liquid, and feed it a small amount of wort. Once this is active (or soon thereafter), pitch it. This process will take longer than your average starter, but it really doen't require much effort (the yeast are the ones doing most of the work). It is an easy way to improve your beer tremendously. Have fun! George De Piro (Nyack, NY) Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 09:41:05 -0400 From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Gushers,forced fermentation, Clinitest Brewsters: Last week or so George DePiro and Jim Liddil and Al Korzonas all addressed the problem of not knowing when the fermentation is finished. George and Jim both opted for a forced fermentation at 80F to help Charlie determine the fermentation endpoint of a new batch of Stout ( I think). On a different subject, without offering a solution, AlK said: "As for when you should rack out from under this pancake of yeast, the question is: "is the beer done?" Better put: "Have I gotten enough attenuation?" Part of this is determined by knowing what your expected apparent attenuation is for this yeast and calculating it. No fermentation is perfectly clean and if you leave too much fermentable sugar in the beer, you'll have gushers eventually." Forced fermentations may offer a clue to when the fermentation will be furnished, but are subject to indeterminate errors. Remember that this same forced fermentation method is also used to determine the stability of the beer, as a check for unwanted bacterial fermentation. Bacteria function better at elevated temperatures, so likely any even slightly infected beer will give an FG dependent on the bacterial content as contrasted to a fermentation that was carried out at cooler temperatures. AlK also brings up the other issue that certain yeasts like Ringwood and Samuel Smith's require rousing to bring the beer to completion. This implies of course that the fermentation is vessel and agitation dependent as well as dissolved CO2 dependent and therefore temperature dependent. Ergo, the smaller test bottle at a higher temperature may give a different result from the larger vessel. Finally, there is a need to bring the beer back to near the temperature of the brew, so that a highly accurate FG can be determined. As we have often pointed out in the past, accurate determination of the FG of a beer full of CO2 is not hydrometry at its finest. In fact, it is full of errors as a method of determining the FG because of the bubbles of gas that cling to the hydrometer. Worst of all these errors are in the wrong direction, since the readings of the hydrometer will be higher and lead the brewer to conclude that the main batch is finished when it is not. AlK also suggests that we, who make many different kinds of beer, actually know what the FG is ahead of time. If we were Budweiser or used only extracts, this could be an acceptable method, perhaps, but we aren't and don't. The whole point of this hobby for most homebrewers is to make all kinds of beers with various ( intentional or accidental) mash temperature profiles and yeast that behave differently. As a result, we almost never know what the final FG will be, since we have no experience. Given this, how do we know what the expected FG is supposed to be? Actually you don't care what the FG is supposed to be, but as AlK points out to know "Is the beer done?" This is another way of saying "Are there any more fermentable sugars in the beer?" Forced fermentations are probably very useful to determine if your beer will have a shelf life (most often we don't care) and to evaluate your basic cleanliness in your preparation. However, I believe they are a cumbersome, 1800s, time consuming and full of error method of determining a fermentation endpoint. Worst of all these errors are indeterminate and vary from batch to batch. Clinitest is superior to this forced fermentation/hydrometer method for this purpose of determining "Is the beer done?", since it directly determines the state of sugars in the beer and not the specific gravity which is only marginally related to the (total) sugar content. One minute to run this simple test and you know exactly the state of the fermentable sugar content of your beer at that point in time. Visit your local pharmacy for a Clinitest Kit and actually know the current status of the fermentation near the endpoint without having to wait days for a suspect result. If you use Clinitest you will never have to worry about gushers Keep on brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ 07405 103164.3202 at compuserve.com Dave_Burley at compuserve.com Voice e-mail OK Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 09:10:08 -0500 From: tonja and kevin eichelberger <tkeich at falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Subject: jim liddil's post #2784 I was skimming through the digest, and wanted to add a couple of thoughts on ph and its measurement. Having had some concern over low ph readings at high temperatures, I have since changed my methods of taking the readings. Siebel has noted that "by convention, when a ph value is mentioned in brewing the ph would be the ph that the material would have at room temperature." I have found that atc ph meters, read much more accurately at room temp. The probe is a highly sensitive piece, and undoubtedly will have a longer life when taking readings at room temp. Its my understanding that the reasoning behind the lower ph at the higher temp is that hydrogen ions dissasociate with h2o molecules and acids and go into solution. Higher concentrations of hydrogen ions in solution will give you a lower ph reading. Is it true that only the "reading" is changing, and not the actual ph? On another note, when stirring yeast on a stir plate with a magnetic stir bar, you will generate heat. I like to use three rubber stoppers to elevate the beaker. Although rather expensive, orbital shakers make a good alternative for aerating yeast for propagation or forced fermentation. Respectfully, Kevin Eichelberger Lawrence, Ks. Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 07:24:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Domenick Venezia <demonick at zgi.com> Subject: Proper Iodophor Temp. Tim Burkhart <tburkhart at dridesign.com> asks: >What is the optimum water temperature for the use of Iodophor? I don't know the optimum "killing" temp for iodophor, but I'd guess that the hotter the water the better in terms of killing quickly. However, Iodophor should be used in cold water. Since iodine is EXTREMELY volatile - a solid piece will sublimate in just minutes to hours - it acts more like a dissolved gas, and will quickly evaporate out of a warm/hot solution. In some ways iodine is like dry ice only slower. Domenick Venezia demonick at zgi dot com Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 10:42:22 EDT From: MaltyDog at aol.com Subject: A Canning Question / A Propane Question I have a couple of quick, unrelated questions for the group en masse: I have canned wort starters for some years. When I first started doing it, I picked up jars from a local hardware store, with no instructions, and read a little about canning in homebrew books, but I didn't know everything there was to know about standard canning techniques. The above is mentioned just so you realize the habit I'm about to mention didn't come about because I'm incredibly cheap, just ignorant. Anyway, I didn't know you were supposed to replace the lids everytime you canned! I have reused the lids many times, and I never had any problem with them. They sealed properly several times, the wort seemed fine, etc. So I wonder exactly why you're not supposed to reuse the lids. If you're boiling & pressure cooking them, well, they become sterile, don't they? Or am I missing something? On the propane front. I just ordered an outdoor cooker, which I should receive momentarily. I purchased and filled a propane tank. I was wondering how many batches of beer those of you who do this regularly get out of one tank. I was thinking of getting one of those adaptors to attaching one of the mini disposable propane cans, which I always have around for yeast culturing, because I'd hate to run out of propane in the middle of a brewday, and I really don't want to have 2 of those monster propane tanks in my house-or rather, my back yard-1 is scary enough! Thanks for any input, Bill Coleman Brooklyn, NY MaltyDog at aol.com Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 11:01:58 -0400 From: Matthew House <mthouse at concentric.net> Subject: Proper storage of malt. Scott Bickhams article in the latest issue of Brewing Techniques mentions the proper storage of malt as a way to stave off some of the fatty/soapy flavors discussed. Can someone enlighten me as to the proper storage of malt? I am storing it in my basement, 50F-60F, contained in the usual mesh grain bags. Matt House Midland, MI Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 10:07:54 -0700 From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net> Subject: Schmidling Productions, Inc.... New Web Location We are moving our Homebrew page to our local ISP and combining it with our Astronomy Page. We have a new Home Page which should make it painless to get where you want to go. This change is effective immediately but a referral will be provided at the old url for one year. We ask that anyone with links to our pages, please make necessary corrections. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank Keith Royster for getting us off the ground on the WWW and wish him the best of luck. js Visit our WEB pages: http://user.mc.net/arf ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 11:32:56 -0600 From: "Bob Zamites" <bamzam at trail.com> Subject: Jack Bashing For some reason, Sam Mize feels the need to attack Jack Schmidling: >ordering info AND info on how to make your own. (That dirty >money-grubber, it's got to be a trick somehow...) Well Sam, I personally find that anyone who uses this forum as a venue for attacking others is acting like a schoolyard bully. Take your beef with Jack to private e-mail instead. Jack took time out to call me back one night (on his dime...not exactly a money-grubber's attitude) and walked me through, step-by-step, my first lauter with a newly purchased EasyMasher. I had gotten a stuck run-off, and w/o Jack's help, I would have been in a fix. Any response that anyone has to this post, please private e-mail me. Bob Zamites (First Fire Brewing Co.) Santa Fe, NM Return to table of contents
Date: 02 Aug 1998 11:18:49 -0700 From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com> Subject: Re: Pitching temps - second thought >> Samuel Mize writes: Sam> Dion commented on pitching ale yeast at 82F, and Sam Mize replied Sam> that this was a little hot. What a maroon. It's warm for Sam> fermentation, but should be fine for pitching if the batch cools Sam> to fermentation temperature in a few hours. I haven't seen Sam> advice suggesting that an ale needs to be pitched cooler than Sam> that. Heck, *I* pitch at that kind of temp, so it *must* be Sam> right. Dion concurs. After 5 days in primary, I racked to secondary and took gravity reading. After that, sampled the result. No off flavors at all. And yes, the wort did cool down to 72F in a couple of hours after pitching. dion - -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen at woodsprite.com Home Page: http://woodsprite.com/hollen.html Brewing Page: http://hdb.org/hollen Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 11:34:25 -0700 From: "Grant W. Knechtel" <GWK at hartcrowser.com> Subject: RE:inactivity Earl asked in Homebrew Digest 2785: -Snip- I am a new homebrewer and just did my first batch Weds night. It is now Fri. morning and still have no activity. I followed the directions to the letter. Any suggestions, should I wait longer, repitch more yeast, please help???? -Snip- Some more information would be helpful, such as what type of fermenter you're using, what your recipe was, and what type of yeast you pitched. I'll make a stab at your problem anyway. Most new homebrewers start with an extract recipe, plastic bucket fermenter and dry yeast. Some possibilities are: 1. your ferment has started since you posted Friday and is proceeding normally. Don't do anything different than originally planned for this batch. Take steps to reduce lag time for your next batch. 2. your ferment proceeded normally but the leaky lid of your plastic bucket didn't allow enough pressure to build to bubble through your airlock. If there's foam (kraeusen) on top of your fermenting beer, or kraeusen stuck to the fermenter sides above the beer, where it rose before subsiding, this was probably the case. Proceed as for 1. 3. If you used liquid yeast but didn't make a starter, the long delay, or lag time, is due to the yeast needing to multiply many times before there's enough yeast to ferment. Make a starter next time. There are instructions on the Wyeast packs, at the Wyeast.com web site or search HBD archives or the Brewery library. 4. you used dry yeast but didn't rehydrate before pitching. Symptoms are much the same as pitching liquid yeast without making a starter. Osmotic pressure on dry yeast cells attempting to rehydrate in heavy, sugar-laden wort kills a large part of the cells. Try the Lallemand.com website for tips on use of dry yeast. I can email you instructions for yeast starters and rehydrating, if you're web impaired. 5. you may have pitched yeast into wort at too high temperature, over ca. 110 F. and killed or seriously impaired the yeast, or your yeast packet had been mishandled before purchase, killing it. Try repitching a rehydrated yeast packet, use a different source and/or type if you suspect your purchased pack. This is another advantage of making a starter, you *know* the yeast is viable before committing your valuable wort to it. No doubt others will post some good thoughts on your ferment. I was fortunate to start brewing by taking a night class mentored by some experienced homebrewers. Finding a class or a club where you can interact with others more experienced will help a lot with those first time jitters. Reading the Homebrew Digest every day will also help, but it's not always on point for the problem you have at the moment. The Brewery BBS is also a good source for more-or-less real time interaction online. Naturally, information from there as with anywhere online needs filtering through your common sense. I'd also recommend you purchase a good beginning homebrewing book, Al Korzonas' "Homebrewing Volume 1" is excellent, and is available from his website at http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ I have found it to be better (more correct, thorough and complete) than the widely available books from Papazian and Miller, although I own several of those as well. No affiliation with any commercial entities noted above, just a satisfied customer, of course. Good luck, and Prost! -Grant Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei Des Moines, Washington Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:40:12 -0600 (MDT) From: Robert Johnson <robertcj at lamar.ColoState.EDU> Subject: holes in my fridge I recently acquired a used Frigidaire refrigerator with a freezer on top, and the fridge part below. I will be keeping the CO2 tank outside of the fridge and am interested in any suggestions as to where to drill the hole for the gas line. A few suggestions, from different sources, would be helpful, as I want to avoid using a method someone used successfully only once, as this success may have been due to chance/luck in avoiding coolant lines. Thanks in advance, Bob Johnson Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 15:05:03 -0400 From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Irish Moss vs Carrageenan It is my assumption that the ability of Irish moss (Chondrus crispus) to precipitate proteins (and polyphenols?) resides in its content of carageenan (also spelled carrageen or carragheen according to the dictionary). I also assume that the carrageenan in Irish moss is extracted from the Irish moss flakes (is there any other form?) by boiling it, which I believe is part of the method of preparing carrageenan commercially. If my assumptions are correct, why should I not use the active ingredient, carrageenan, in my brewing instead of Irish moss? - -- Fred L. Johnson Apex, North Carolina Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 15:41:31 -0400 From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net> Subject: pH Data I've heard much discussion about the conventional temperature at which pH should be measured by the brewer, but I've never heard an answer to the question, "How was the pH measured by the biochemist when he determined that the pH optima for the enzyme?" What is the convention among the biochemists of the temperature at which one specifies the pH of the enzyme reaction being measure? And is this the convention used by whomever determined the pH optima of the enzymes we are dealing with? I really don't care what Miller or anybody else's standard practice is. I want to know what the biochemist did when he studied the enzyme! It seems that unless one has the answer to this last question, we're only guessing as to the appropriate temperature at which pH should be measured in the brewhouse. - -- Fred L. Johnson Apex, North Carolina Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 20:47:54 -0400 From: "Rich Andel (rpm2nite)" <rpm2nite at ten.net> Subject: Re-Pitching after using Polyclar I was wondering if anyone has ever tried this. I meant to collect the yeast from the primary but forgot and added polyclar to the secondary before kegging. Do you think its possible to still gather up some yeast and re-pitch in my next beer after using polyclar? thanks, Rich Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 21:38:26 -0400 From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at longisland.com> Subject: Re: High Temp. Wheat Beer Ferments In HBD 2781 Tom Barnet wrote: > I've brewed a few batches of wheat beer this summer and have been >somewhat unsatisfied with the results. I've been employing a step-mash >procedure, with rests at 100F,122F,155F and 170F, followed by a thorough >sparge. I've made a starter with Wyeasts Weihenstephan yeast and have >had strong fermentation. The flavor however does not seem to have the >character i've read it should. For example, there isn't really any >bannana or clove-like flavors, and there seems to be a somewhat bitter >aftertaste--also some smoke-like flavor. I'm following the basic recipe in >Warner's book on german wheat beer. The fermentation temperature was >75-80F, and i'm wondering if this is the reason for the beers taste profile. As many have already commented I too would be willing to bet that the temperature is the problem. When I volunteered to work in a brewpub two summers ago, I got "paid" either with finished beer or with 5-10 gallons unfermented of whatever we brewed that day, which I then took home to ferment and bottle. I loved their wheat beer brewed with the same ( 3068 ) yeast that you are using. Thus, I often took my" fresh from the kettle", 10 gal ration of this whenever available. Unfortunately I did not have a refrigerator for fermenting at the time. Since it was the summer, my fermentation temperatures also reached into the low to mid 80's. When fermenting this wheat beer at home, I never got antwhere close to the taste of the brewery's beer from the same batch. There was always a strong raw taste I believe was due to Esters and/or Fusel Alcohol (bad vodka or nail-polish like) and little of the banana taste. I also found that the color from the high temp. ferment was decidedly "greyer" than the beautiful orange shade that a good wheat beer has ( see the cover photo of Warner's book). When I started paying attention to temperature control of my summer ferments, the taste and final color got a lot closer to what I wanted. Wyeast gives 68 deg F as the optimal temperature for this yeast. At 80 deg, I bet you had a real ferment gusher on your hands as I have found that this yeast can qualify for emergency rocket fuel at around 78 deg F but behaves OK when kept at around 65 to 68 deg F. ************************ In HBD 2874 George dePiro wrote: >I asked Lyn Kruger at Siebels about doing alot of things on a homebrew scale. Careful George. You can break a scale that way!! ************* Jim Bentson Centerport NY Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 00:19:51 -0400 From: "Scott W. Nowicki" <nowicki at voicenet.com> Subject: Amstel Lager in the Netherland Antilles I've just recently returned from a vacation on Bonaire, in the Netherland Antilles. The primary beer there is Amstel Lager, which is brewed on the neighboring island, Curacao. I was wondering if anyone has any insight on the brewing process/recipe for this variation of Amstel (versus the Dutch Amstel). Has anyone ever toured the brewery in Curacao? All I really know about it is that it is brewed with distilled seawater, according to age old recipes from the Amstel Brewery in Amsterdam (as it says on the back label). I'm curious if the water chemistry is adjusted to that of "Amsterdam water." I have never actually had Amstel Lager (not Light) here in the US, as it's kind of rare, so I really don't even know if the taste is different. Their web page (http://www.amstel.nl/lounge/us/m0.html) says that it is now available in the US, and that it is a bottom-fermenting lager beer, brewed from ... malted barley, hops and water. This, of course, doesn't help much. :-) I would love to try to reproduce it for myself and my travel companions. Perhaps even a recipe for a traditional Amstel Lager would get me started. All-grain or extract. Thanks, Scott Scott W. Nowicki Holland, Pennsylvania USA nowicki at voicenet.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 07:45:40 +0200 From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com> Subject: sweet potato Hello Brewers, Does anybody know if the innulin from sweet potato is converted into fructose by the enzymes of barleymalt? Did somebody used the sweet potato as adjunct? If so, was the beer drinkable? TIA, Hans Aikema Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:49:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> Subject: Re: artistic pitching rates re-visited Paul Niebergall wrote: > > Samuel Mize wrote: > >"Dry yeast does contain about 50 times the yeast in a Wyeast pack, but > >I still don't think it's enough for pitching directly. If you > believe > >your dry yeast is 100% viable (is that a big or little if these > >days?), then 2 typical-sized packages (5g) would be about the minimum > >for a 5 gal. batch. If you don't trust that your yeast is 100% > >viable, then scale up from there. It's cheap and effective." First of all, Sam Mize didn't write that snippet, I did. Paul then tries to both mathematically and sarcastically prove that I'm being overly zealous. > Let*s see if we can follow this reasoning: > <snip> > So if this is true, pitching two dried yeast packs is like pitching > 100 regular sized (50 mL) smak paks, or the equivalent of a super-anal 5 > liter starter volume. Your math looks correct Paul; a 5 liter starter volume would be about right. Thank you for illuminating us further. I look forward to your next contribution to the discussion. > I think the yeast police are at it again! > > Paul Niebergall I think most of us are just trying to help others by offering advice based on experience, not trying to condemn others that have a different view than ours. SM (I guess I should be grateful he didn't call me a yeast fascist) Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 00:11:21 -0600 From: "arne seeger" <seeger at pdrpip.com> Subject: bottle conditioning I bottle condition my ales using a fridge that I keep at 68 degrees. Once my ales are carbonated I don't always have room for all that beer in my other fridge, and I don't want to turn the fridge I keep at 68 down because I want to ferment another batch. So my question is this- How long can I safely keep bottled beer at 68 degrees? I need the fridge to ferment my ales because living in New Mexico we experience about a 30 degree difference in temp between day and night. Thanks, Arne Seeger seeger at pdrpip.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:16:44 -0400 From: "Paul E. Lyon" <lyon at osb1.wff.nasa.gov> Subject: hop questions I have 2 home grown hop questions: 1. I have a vine of Cascade which is covered with cones of various sizes. I am having trouble understanding the books I have on the tests used to see if the hops are ripe. I gently squeezed the cones to see if they are "springy", as in they don't stay stuck together, and they seem to spring back. I have cut a cone open to see that the lupins are present from the center of the hops down to the stem, and they are. But I have also read that the cones should be slightly yellow before they are ripe. My cones are not yellowed at all, but just about as green the leaves. I don't want to wait too long to harvest, but I don't to harvest hops that are too young either. Is one test more determinate than another? For instance, should I wait till they are yellowed, or is if fine to pick once the lupins are full within the hops. 2. I have a vine of Fuggles that has cones, but only 2 per leaf breakout on the vine, not clustered like on the vine of Cascade. Is this normal for Fuggles? The cones on this vine are also quite small. They are all about 1/2" long and the leaves are very loose, more like flowers than like cones, and my Cascade has cones as long as 2.5" and are tight like pine cones. Could the number of cones and size of these cones on the Fuggles be caused by a weak vine? The Fuggles didn't climb nearly as high as the Cascade vine. Thanks, P.E.L. - Paul E. Lyon EG&G Services Inc. - - Ocean Color Research - - lyon at osb.wff.nasa.gov - Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 08:51:10 -0500 From: Results <results at win.bright.net> Subject: Brewery Finance 201 Kyle Druey wrote: > > Isn't finance fun. I haven't had so much fun since I was working for accountants.. > Depreciation is a fixed cost of production. At Viking, you don't have > the G&A that the megas do, and you have more flexibility with expanding > or contracting it, thus my point. Your depreciation, on a proportional > basis of capital, should be similar to A/B's. This is true. I get to use the same Depreciation schedules as the Big Boys and therefore I'm paying about the same depreciation for scale (give or take). What makes the difference is that the Big Boys have a utilization rate much higher than the micros. They put a lot of beer though the tanks and keep them full. At a micro you do less of that. We don't do 7 day lagers ;-) Therefore the cost of that equipment (although probably about the same on a time line) is higher on a volumetric basis. Now as far as G&A, we beat the pants off someone like A/B... > The equipment cost is irrelevant to production costs once you have > purchased it, installed it, and are operating with it. This is a > capital item, and was justified based on future production levels and > sales and is not regarded as an operating cost or overhead. The more > relevant term is your current financing costs (of the equipment > purchase) per bbl and not the original equipment cost. Yes and No. I used to militate this position frequently. What I found is that there is real depreciation and there is IRS depreciation. The former is based in physical reality, the later in political reality. I hate the later. There is a real cost of equipment; it wears out (some of it *real* slowly) and therefore there is a replacement cost. On very slowly depreciating things, the cost of the capital far outweighs the actual depreciation.. This is a real cost even if you didn't borrow the money. You have to figure in what it cost you to put that money into this venture as opposed to some safe investment like T-bills... > > >it is hard to expand substantially. > > Seems that these problems could be minimized with proper front end > planning and designing your equipment so that the capacity can be > eventually increased. Capacity on the scale of a micro exhibits quantized effects. Brew houses (the limiting sizing thing) come in specific sizes: 7, 10, 15, 30 and up bbls. Within a range of size, you can move production around with relative ease. Once you hit the ceiling imposed by the brew house, you have to rip out that brewhouse and put in another (assuming that you don't want to run two). This is what I mean by expanding sizes. If you start up with a 15 bbl brewery in a 7 bbl market, you gots problems for a long time to come. > Hope you are not expanding into a mature competitive > micro market and left holding the bag. The micro market needs more > differentiable products, instead of the tidal wave of amber ales that I > usually see now. Actually we are in a rather strange market. We came up 2 years ago and are the first micro within 100 miles. We are both ahead and behind the curve here. Micro beers are a dime a dozen on the shelves (well, more than that), but few people know what one is. The hoppy beers of the west coast won't sell here at all. You can still find $0.25 tap beer.... We came up very small and are expanding as we generate market. Always watching our backside too since Leinenkugals is in our back yard. > You got it almost right, the *Market* is more important than marketing. > Marketing can't always expand or improve a market, but if the market is > there you don't necessarily need the marketing. I mostly agree with you. We have an add budget of about $100/month or so. We do very little advertising and are using you assertion to it's fullest. OTOH, people like A/B create market by application of huge market dollars. This is the basis of lite beer. > > >- production capacity needs to reflect current and *future* markets. > > Agreed, but the future part of that statement is where one needs to be > the most careful. And how does one identify that future part? You tell > me, because I don't know! Hmmm. People make plenty good money voicing some kind of opinion on this. While the micro markets must be pretty well saturated on the west coast, places like the midwest are definitely under done. I had someone point out that while the large (micro?) like Sam Adams and Petes are in trouble the smaller ones are continuing the climb... It'll be interesting to see where it levels out. > Only depends on who the "market" is. I don't know this, just a WAG, but > it seems that the micros cater to a niche market. This niche has an > educated beer pallet. Absolutely True. The vast majority of drinkers in this country won't touch a micro beer if offered one. We have a few people out here who violate this dictum because we are the local brewery and they try it out of curiosity / courtesy (and guess what? they like it!)... Maybe a third of our market is the older W.W.II vets who remember what beer used to taste like. > Micros cater to a unique part of the beer market (see > above) and do not IMO compete with A/B. If you think you are competing > with A/B you need to change your business model! Anyone who thinks they can compete with a large brewer is doomed. No we don't complete with any of these things directly. We do compete for tap handle space (not on product) with Leinies, which puts in a strange position. The basic thing here is that a micro *can't hope* to compete with even a regional brewer so they *must* differentiate themselves greatly from those. In a crowded micro market, they probably have to either step up the advertising or take an even narrower niche market. Randy Lee Viking Brewing Company Dallas, WI http://www.win.bright.net Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:59:39 -0400 (EDT) From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff) Subject: re: extract FAN/fusels/O2/beer inductors/starters/top-fermenters Hi All, Al K. writes (quoting Laurel): >Laurel writes: >>In answer to Mark Swenson's question about dispensing from a keg at >>relatively high pressure - you're right to use a longer dispense line, >>but you might also try coiling it up several times (say, a 5-6" diameter >>coil or as small as you can make it without kinking the tubing) to give >>more back pressure. > >Are you sure about this? I don't see how coiling would increase back >pressure... the fact is that flow is what causes the pressure drop. >Is there an "inductor-like" effect (like coiling a wire)? No... there >can't be... can there? An inductor works because a magnetic field is >generated. Yes, coiling the dispense line will increase the dynamic pressure loss in the system. I can even provide a reference: "A bend or curve in a pipe, as in Fig. 6.19, always induces a loss larger than the simple Moody friction loss, due to flow separation at the walls and a swirling secondary flow arising from the centripetal acceleration. The loss coefficients K in Fig. 6.19 are for this additional bend loss." Frank M. White, "Fluid Mechanics" second edition, McGraw-Hill, 1979, pg 334 Hoppy brewing, Jeff ========================================================================== Geoffrey A. McNally Phone: (401) 832-1390 Mechanical Engineer Fax: (401) 832-7250 Launcher Technology and email: Analysis Branch mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil Naval Undersea Warfare Center WWW: Code 8322; Bldg. 1246/2 http://www.nuwc.navy.mil/ Newport, RI 02841-1708 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:14:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Ward <paulw at doc.state.vt.us> Subject: Forced Aging? Well the results are in and my first all grain brew turns out to be,...turpentine. I'm not worried. Brew session went exceptionally well. I nailed my single infusion temp right on the nose (156 F). The sparge was smooth and clear. I guessed wrong at initial boil volume though and had to top up my 1.068 three gallons of wort with a couple of gallons of tap water to bring me up to 5.25 gallons (US) for ferment. I used my new 'Moroni' gas cooker for the first time (170,000 btu propane cooker, control valve allows a gentle simmer without sooting problems - $39 US at BJ's Wholesale). Did the whole process from grinding to cleanup on the deck on a beautiful Vermont Sunday. I'm not worried. I forgot to rehydrate my dry yeast (Yeast Labs 'Whitbread') in advance, so I did a real 'quicky' rehydration of about 5 minutes in lukewarm tap water. We had a heatwave the day after pitching - I was on vacation and have no idea how warm fermentation was during this period, but have reasons to believe it was quite warm. I'm not worried. After 3 weeks in the bottle, the stuff is not drinkable. I'm not worried. I know that many of the fusels and other harsh flavors will mellow in time. Alk had his now infamous 'Home Perm Solution Ale' go on to win a medal or something after it had aged sufficienetly. The problem is that I'm not the most patient person around. Is there some series of actions I can take which will speed along the aging process? Some combination of abuses we normally avoid so we don't get stale (aged) beer? I'm not looking to beat up my whole batch, just a few bottles to see if I ever will be able to drink this pilot brew. So what do you think? Should I drive around with a sixer in the back of my car for a week, refrigerate/warm/refrigerate the beer, store under flourescents, anything else? I mean, this IS my first all grainer, I really would like to be able to drink some of it. I'm not worried, just disappointed. Paul in Vermont paulw at doc.state.vt.us - -- According to government height/weight charts, I'm seven and a half feet tall. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:06:13 -0500 From: Mark_Snyder at wastemanagement.com Subject: Lifting Carboys Mark Snyder at WMI 08/03/98 10:06 AM Dick Dunn discusses the fact that "the folks who deliver 5-gal bottles have long used a "handle" that has a hand-grip and a fork that grabs the carboy just below the molded-in bulge in the neck. This indicates that our ubiquitous carboy handle is probably quite safe (and that their _sotto_voce_ instructions are mostly intended to try to keep the ambulance-chasers at bay) even if handling full carboys." One point to consider is that the "fork" device will lift the carboy without placing any extreme forces on the neck of the 'boy since it is grabbing the neck from two sides and lifting straight through the neck. A typical carboy handle of the sort we use lifts the carboy from 'one' side of the neck, and will place different stress on the carboy neck than the device Dick describes. An extreme comparison would be to imagine holding a carboy only by the neck and parallel to the ground. Probably not a major point, but one would be better off to use the handle to initiate the lift and then support the carboy from the bottom with the free hand when lifting a full carboy. Although I haven't had the misfortune of dropping a carboy, either full or empty, one precaution I take when handling a full carboy is to wear good quality leather gloves. Good quality work type with a smooth natural finish. Most carboys are probably dropped due to a wet carboy slipping from ones grip, and you won't believe how well a leather glove sticks to a surface, wet or dry, until you try it. Just my 2 cents, and I still have all my toes. :-) Mark Snyder Marietta, Georgia Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:21:55 -0400 (EDT) From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu> Subject: Use of OAK in brewing Hi All, I have lately become enamored of a certain red wine that, according to my wine-knowledgeable friends, has a strong oak character. This of course immediately led me to ponder what oak could do for my beer. I've seen oak chips for sale but haven't the foggiest idea how best to use them so am asking the collective for advice and any experiences they'd care to relate concerning the use of oak in beer Any commercial examples of oaked beers worth seeking out? Thanks, Alan - ------------------------------------------------------------------ "Graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life." -Jim Squire -Alan Meeker Johns Hopkins Hospital Dept. of Urology (410) 614-4974 __________________________________________________________________ Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:07:04 -0500 From: Monika Schultz <mschultz at spacehab.com> Subject: Women Brewers There has been some speculation lately about why so few women brew beer these days. One poster suggested lifting heavy carboys, etc may be one reason. As a female brewer, I think it's even more basic than that. Most women simply don't like beer. Certainly not ALL women (no gender slight intended), I know a few who love beer. And there are plenty of women who do drink beer, but mainly because that's what's available, they don't like it enough to brew it. Most of my female friends prefer wine or mixed drinks to beer. Part of it may be due to the marketing influences which strongly suggest beer as a man's drink (Bud babes for example - where are the Bud hunks?). I've tried converting my female non-beer drinkers with homebrew to no avail. They say it tastes better than the beer they're used to, but it still tastes 'beery'. Remember, you have to really like the stuff first before you'll be willing to put in the effort to make it. The general attitude among non-brewers toward me brewing is that men think it's really cool, and women think it's really weird/odd/whatever. But then, I have other hobbies (motorcycle riding) that are traditionally male dominated as well, so it must be a personality quirk. :-) - Monika Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 12:57:25 -0500 From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net> Subject: Starter gravity Greetings, With all the discussion recently about starters, I'd like to ask a question again that went unanswered several weeks ago. Why does Wyeast recommend that starters have a gravity of 1.020? That's significantly lighter than the lightest "real" wort. So it would seem that yeast pitched from 1.020 starters into higher gravity real worts might have a difficult time acclimating to the higher gravity. Also, it would seem that if you start with a higher gravity starter, you'll get more yeast. I suppose a low gravity starter ferments out faster than a higher gravity starter, so your starters would take less time to prepare. Any ideas? Dave Humes >>humesdg1 at earthlink.net<< Return to table of contents
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